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Free Online Education Unwelcome In Minnesota
An anonymous reader sends this quote from the Chronicle of Higher Education:
"[Minnesota's] Office of Higher Education has informed the popular provider of massive open online courses, or MOOC's, that Coursera is unwelcome in the state because it never got permission to operate there. It's unclear how the law could be enforced when the content is freely available on the Web, but Coursera updated its Terms of Service to include the following caution: 'Notice for Minnesota Users: Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or (2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota.' Tricia Grimes, a policy analyst for the state's Office of Higher Education, said letters had been sent to all postsecondary institutions known to be offering courses in Minnesota."
I suspect there is a lot more to this story than anyone in the universities or legislature would ever admit publicly.
But I suspect the real impetus here is that the state legislators don't want anyone coming into their state without having to lobby (aka bribe) them first. Every state university has to come to them once a year with hat-in-hand, and they sure don't want anyone bypassing this system by coming in from out of state without paying their largesse. The patron expects his coin before you do business here, citizen.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
And it's profitable..
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I read "Minnesota," (and MOOC) and instantly had flashbacks to grade school, Apple-II, and Oregon Trail. Here's hoping no one contracts dysentery.
I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
Scary politicians
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
But I suspect the real impetus here is that the state legislators don't want anyone coming into their state without having to lobby (aka bribe) them first. Every state university has to come to them once a year with hat-in-hand, and they sure don't want anyone bypassing this system by coming in from out of state without paying their largesse. The patron expects his coin before you do business here, citizen.
Or they're sick and tired of fake online universities charging their citizens or occupying peoples' time for degrees that aren't worth shit. Total nanny state action but your accusations of bribery are completely without merit or citation. Do you know what accreditation is? Why aren't you accusing accredited universities of paying a local authority?
Given that it's non-accredited and doesn't give you a degree or anything official, how is it really any different than any article on the Internet? Does YouTube need permission from each state because they have educational videos on a variety of subjects?
"You don't have our permission to talk to people and teach, AKA inform them", which is the vital, core aspect of freedom of speech.
I am in favor of an amendment that allows guillotining of government officials when they lose first amendment issues.
j/k
kinda not sorry not sorry
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
An American-based government actually punishing a corporate entity instead of slapping it on the wrist?
Yeah... right now that *is* pretty difficult to imagine, actually.
Yep, if Bachmann and her type are going to remain in power then they have to keep the population (i.e. peasants) as dumb as a box full of rocks.
Why is Snark Required?
"If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera..."
Why would I agree to a Terms-of-Service in order to not use the service? That's completely contradictory.
I hate to say it, but the first thing that springs to mind is this being emblematic of the generally shoddy, poorly-planned work of these massive online courses.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
*Psst... hey Minnesota lawmakers..*... Just delete that Dial-up Networking icon from your desktop. It removes your Internets from your computer.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
For a accredited degree granting institutions that would be true. I will grant that there has to be some type of regulation, but I would quibble that they would have to register with every single state – but that is off topic and for another debate.
Coursera is not this. It not accredited so from an academic viewpoint why does it need to be regulated?
And is there anybody here from Minnesota that has any good ideas on how to get this changed? I am going to e-mail Minnesota Office of Higher Education, but I suspect that is only the first step.
Political donations are often considered bribes. That's very often the wrong understanding.
Much of the time they are donations to people who agree with you, but we just presume corruption.
But when corruption does exist, it's usually an extortion payment and the cost of doing business. We complain about businesses, but in reality if the government wants to crush a corporation or an individual that person or group of people are toast.
If you want to get the money out of politics, get the politics out of money.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
You will need a license or 'permission' to speak... on the internet, or off.
One of the nice things about American censorship is its subtlety.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
They're not saying colleges can't use Courseera, they're saying no one in MN can use it. The issue stems from the fact that Coursera is free and doesn't offer degrees - making it little different than watching HowTo videos on YouTube.
Or in some cases violates IP laws.. :P
Where I live, you have to get a permit to do just about everything that you're not doing for yourself on your own private land.
You can't even mow your parents' lawn without obtaining a license from the local gestapo, even if you're doing it for free.
You basically cannot perform any work for anyone else that would normally be a revenue activity, without getting the proper licenses and permits from the city.
And many people still think the United States is not a tyrannical big government police state. Sheesh.
A Ms. Grimes was quoted in the article, "This has been a longtime requirement in Minnesota (at least 20 years) and applies to online and brick-and-mortar postsecondary institutions that offer instruction to Minnesota residents as part of our overall responsibility to provide consumer protection for students,” However, Coursera is free, so how do consumer protection laws come into play? Also, take a look at some of the participating institutions : Princeton, Duke, Illinois, Brown, University of Michigan, Columbia... I'm glad the Minnesota officials are so vigilant about protecting Minnesota residents.
I think you want to say “homosexuality being basically mutable” Michele’s Bachman’s husband ran a conversion therapy group to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals. If you are going to use scare tactics, at least get your facts straight.
The State of Minnesota will do the following for people who have Coursera degrees:
They will not hire you
If you work at a company that has a State contract you may not work on the State project in any capacity.
Fines, lawsuits, etc.
I worked for the state for about three years. They have a lot of contracts in the private sector.
But feel free to take the courses. I'm sure it will all work out.
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
No, because the other 2 things I pointed out were completely false ideas that Michele Bachmann is quite proud of believing.
I am officially gone from
Looking through their site, while they never claim to be accredited, they strongly imply they are equivalent, including throwing around 'university' quite a bit.. though very carefully never actually calling themselves one. To people familiar with the venture this probably seems fine, but to someone just glancing over it, it looks pretty shady, like the layed things out so it was just technically within the law but gives the consumer an impression it is more then it is.
However, since it is free, I am not sure how it all ties together. I suspect regulators looked over the site and said 'this looks fishy', and this could be cleared up with a couple of phone calls.
I could buy that - expect that the "Comic Book College of Knowledge", which is located in Minneapolis, has not recived a letter to shut down their .... errr ... text book store on 4 color sequential art
This just shows the strength of the Teachers Unions in MN, and why they need to be broken.
What they're really saying is "Coursera, by offering the simple stuff for free, you ultimately threaten the jobs of all the shitty, worthless, lazy time-serving teachers we have as dues-paying members, and we cannot allow you to continue to do so. This is not about "the children" or the consumer, it's about protecting our own, and preserving that massive political power. We've spent millions fighting merit pay, teacher-quality review, and any sort of system where parents get to exercise any choice in their childs' (short of home-schooling, and everyone knows they're religious crazies anyway), and we'll be goddamned if you take away the easy, simple-to-teach online coursework forcing human teachers to focus on the more challenging materials to justify our existance."
-Styopa
What a concept. Distance hair-trimming. How does that work again? You have to remove your scalp, FedEx it to the out-of-state barber, and then fit it back on the return leg?
How is this constitutional? Education is speech, and speech is protected. Surely no one in Minnesota has to accept completion of a Coursera course as meaning anything, but they have no right to prevent anyone from taking the course.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
You true doesn't bill itself and an educational site. Educational TV also doesn't apply.
Lets not forget they are partnered with other educational institutions that do offer degrees, and the classes give out certificates. and is a is a for-profit company.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."
Because we hold the average down.
Have gnu, will travel.
In many states, offering an equivalent education is all that is needed to actually be an unaccredited school/university. For example, since I homeschool in Indiana, my house is an unaccredited school called "The Matthews Academy", I can register for anything an accredited school would register for (educational discounts, field trips, Book It, etc. etc.), and I can even give diplomas. There's nothing at all shady/fishy about that site; the issue is that they're giving out real education for free.
Sorry, other way around: The ideas were true, Michele Bachmann believes otherwise.
I am officially gone from
No they are not. They are saying that any post secondary education institutions offering courses within the state has to register with the state.
The law says (**PDF warning) "All schools located within Minnesota and all schools located outside Minnesota which offer degree programs or courses within Minnesota shall register annually with the office."
It clearly says courses. So all they need to do is simply register with the state to comply. It's a consumer protection law that is supposed to weed out scams. It doesn't seem to make a distinction between charging to attend or not.
Do Coursera's courses actually educate students? Do they educate students at least as well as classes at an accredited university?
The answers are, "Nobody knows" and "Nobody knows." Minnesota residents are not forbidden from visiting Coursera; Minnesota's schools are forbidden from using Coursera in lieu of classroom instruction.
Palm trees and 8
But I think that if universities (maybe not a real-one in this instance) such as MIT, Harvard, Stanford, et al. are brave enough to offer their courses online, why don't they offer degree credits for those people who complete the online courses?
You can take all the MIT openware courses you want, and do quite well, but I suspect "took online courses at MIT site" wouldn't sound too good on a resume, as corporations are credential-obsessed nowadays. This would apply more to people who don't have the time or money to attend an undergraduate institution full-time, but then are penalized in the job market even if they demonstrate an ability to improve their education.
Why don't these universities, in keeping with their academic mission, allow people to get online degrees or credit for free as well?
This Sig does not Exist.
Isn't a statute such as this unconstitutional given states do not have permission to regulate interstate trade. Coursera is not opperating in Minnesota. Instead residents are trading with Coursera over the Internet. It is the same in theory as them taking courses through mail.
Just organized -crime- ah make that organized labor flexing it's political might. Nothing really to see here. Minnesota has long had a uniquely perverse relationship with higher education. It's not surprising that the do nothing administrators and do little teachers would instruct their minions in government to issue this edict. I'm sure without federal preemption they'd force ISPs to block this invasion of their fiefdom.
Coursera's answer should simply be "We're not operating in Minnesota. Our servers are in $PLACE. Minnesota has no jurisdiction in $PLACE. Have a nice day."
I use Coursera and many of the comments show that few posters haven't a clue what Coursera is.
1. Coursera IS a collaborative effort among major Universites (I am using it to take courses from
the University of Michigan, Duke and Stanford). There is no such thing as a Coursea course, it is
only a channel by which existing well respectedUniversities offer their courses to the larger online community.
2. More specifically Coursea is a channel for self education and does not offer ANY academic credit
from institutions that use that channel for their courses. They also do not charge. There is no such
thing as a "Coursera transcript"
3. Coursera is not unique. There is a similar collaborative effort between Harvard and MIT to offer their
courses on line in a similar manner called edx.org.
The law is clearly misapplied since Coursera is not a university or academic institution no does it claim to be, the
law would only apply to all the Universities that use Coursera. Of course I suppose once you really have to
keep an eye on those shady, fly by night operations like Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Harvard and Yale.
It is interesting that it took sumdumass to point out the actual issues. Aren't there any smartpeople out there?
You obviously don't read too well if that is the conclusion you came to.. Coursera is not an institution but a common delivery platform for Universitues like Berkeley, Duke and Stanford to make their courses available for free and without offering academic credit to the community at large. Of course the throw the term University around a lot because it is the delivery channel for top notch universities to give something to the community at large. Oh wait, content for free? I see your point, from the US point of view that would be a threat to IP so yeah.. def shady. Better sue Stanford, Duke and all those bad peoples and hand it all over to the MPAA and disney
I didn't know about coursera until this article. I am excited to have access to this type of material. This site is perfect for people like me who want to gain knowledge in a field without the burden of a full university program. Its a free tutorial site on steroids. I don't understand the State's problem. This site isn't handing out degrees or anything. They probably fear for their 'monopoly' on higher education. Either way, I signed up for some Astronomy classes starting in a few weeks.
Never heard of these guys , now your stupid action has brought them to my attention.
...if any US citizen *does* want to enter, feel free to take my idea! (I'm sure many others have proposed it already though...) Simply a CAPTCHA, audio version. Using DTMF codes to answer. i.e. "To connect this phone call, please type the number three thousand, seven hundred and twenty two on your keypad". Known "white listed" caller IDs can skip it. It can be made harder by presenting mathematics or asking "Please type on your keypad the number of duck quacks you hear ... woof quack moo quack woof."
Etc.
I think therefore I am... a Linux geek.
That is kinda my point. I can see what they do, but I have also seen some pretty shady sites over the years and they look/sound very similar, so someone who is not already familiar with them could plausibly confuse them with the other type.
I think people here are getting way too hung up on the assumption that this is some kind of systematic attempt on free knowledge pushed by shady groups... I know it fits in with the slashdot narrative, but the people who sent out the notice are probably just low range bureaucrats making 30k/year who are not up to date on the latest 'in' technologies that we geeks and nerd are.. so they looked at the site, found similarities between it and less reputable ones, felt it trigged an anti-fraud law, and notified the place. Then instead of clearing up the confusion they decided to be smartasses with their EULA, resulting in the Internet getting riled up over what is probably just some poor person sitting in a desk somewhere trying to do their job and keep an eye on things that are honestly not good, and made a mistake.
Can I help you sir? You seem to be lost.
Minnesota legislators are bought and paid for by teacher and similar cooperating unions and agree to drive out any competition wherever possible.
Most of the sues I saw were art of a proper name from where the material is from:
Columbia University, Stanford University, University of Melbourne, Duke University, Brown University
I would hardly consider using a proper name a claim to that term; also these courses are available via the Universities main site, Coursera just collects them in one place. Kind of like how you can watch a TV show off a station's website, but can see them collected on Hulu.
So why are they not blocking blocking out the main University site if it's such a concern?
...asking if the Office of Higher Education was correctly interpreteting the 1980s era law in question. If they are, I requested information as to how they plan to address the issue. One sits on the Education Reform committee, so I'm hoping to hear that it gets placed on their agenda for debate.
No one is preventing anyone from taking the course. Coursera is being prevented from offering the courses
That sounds like a distinction without a difference, and one that still falls afoul of prior restraint.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
See the first amendment and the commerce clause. A state has no legal power to stop someone from offering free education online.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Coursera makes their site look like they're a real academic institution. Yes, they say "free", but lots of sites say "free" and lie. It's not clear whether "free" is just a bait to get people to sign up, and then attempts are made to "upgrade" them to a paid account. Or there may be "fees". Their terms say "We reserve the right to change or modify the Terms of Use at our sole discretion at any time. Any change or modification to the Terms of Use will be effective immediately upon posting by us. " So they could add fees at any time.
There's a scam where online schools sign up students, and collect enough information that the school can apply for financial aid from the U.S. Department of Education. "The inspector general's office says participants in 42 different fraud rings have been convicted and more than $7.5 million in restitution and fines have been ordered in the past six years. This may be only a small portion of the problem."
See Belford University, which the BBB says is a scam that's generated hundreds of complaints.
It's quite proper for a consumer-protection agency to be concerned.
Most IP law has fair use exceptions for educational use.
You can't copy a whole textbook, but using excerpts from a variety of sources throughout your course is legal.
This is exactly the problem and why the regulations exist, they don't know if something legit or not in order for it to serve it's purpose everybody must get equal regulation. Just because you might like and know some org is legit doesn't mean that the regulators should just green light it-- they need to do their job, check it out, and then arrive at the same conclusion as you did.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Uncontrolled education is dangerous for the republic.
Pray tell, then, how is a "proper university diploma" any better if the trade schools do the job right (assuming they do)? Except that you find the name or concept of a "proper university diploma" somewhat more appealing?
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
The law says (**PDF warning) "All schools located within Minnesota and all schools located outside Minnesota which offer degree programs or courses within Minnesota shall register annually with the office."
I think what's really at issue here then is not whether Coursera is violating this law, but rather whether or not this law is compatible with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Greetings, Mr. A. Coward from Anonymous Proxy. Your first class begins on...
Let's assume a professor at Harvard publishes a series of articles about his specialty (say, astronomy), and syndicates it to newspapers around the country as the delivery mechanism. I use this example to clarify the constitutional issues. I think it is pretty clear this falls under freedom of speech, and the state cannot restrict what he says. Now substitute video for written article, and the consumer's ISP as the delivery mechanism (which is how Coursera works). From a legal standpoint, has anything changed because the professor's words are delivered a different way? I think not.
Coursera is acting as the syndicator, just like newpaper columnists work through syndicators to get their columns distributed to multiple newspapers. ISPs replace the newspaper as the way to deliver to the home. Just because the content being delivered is educational, it does not lose first amendment protection, and cannot be restrained the Minnesota is attempting to.
If an employer doesn't know better than to use a degree as a way to get a foot in the door at best, and do proper skills interviewing, they deserve the crap they get, which is equally possible to get from either poor accredited institutions or people that squeaked through good ones. State accreditation doesn't ensure a good hire and lack of it doesn't ensure a bad one.
In fact, I would go so far as to say the game where the state gets to accept bribes to decide who gets to be "accredited" or not is a moral outrage, not private accreditation, which is worth only its reputation (consider Underwriters' Laboratories, for example, in the sphere of evaluating and certifying electronics; how long after they started approving crap until their reputation would be ruined?).
Who are you - or anybody - to say what "trade schools" should or should not be teaching? Not everyone, for example, wants to study theoretical computer science as opposed to learning the basics of programming. Outside of actual fraud, what a person teaches or learns and what degree they want to stamp on it and what agency accredits the degree should be no business of the state, but open to competition.
Well, I don't think Khan offers an organized course do they? Khan if I understand it correctly, is more like Youtube with study sheets anyone can use for any reason. The school in question here actually seems to have course work.
Either way, if I'm wrong on that, yes, they would require Khan to register or not participate in the state.
While I do agree that the laws need to be changed and updated, I think your assignment of malice is completely unwarranted. The institute meets the legal definition and is subject to the law. They administration had no choice but to follow the law and the rules set in front of them. I'm sure of they ignored it, everyone would be pissed, especially if the state started ignoring the laws for large corporations.
That's a good point. I suggest they attempt to argue that to the state and see for sure. There is a waiver program for some of the requirements built into the law. I think the intent of the law is to weed out scams and diploma mills so they should be willing to either work with online schools or perhaps lobby the state legislature for a change.
Clearly the law was intended for the "draw this doodle and see if you get accepted to our art school and we'll even set up your student load to pay for it" borderline fraud schools. Hard to prove actual fraud if they teach you the littlest bit. The Feds have since tightened up these types of student loans (or at least talked about it) awhile back.
I've lived here all my life. The first thing you need to know about Minnesota is that it is the "State where nothing is allowed." as local radio jockey would say.
The second thing is at all levels a favorite thing to do here is crawl as far up your business as possible.
As an example; Governor Dayton actually came out after the state house and senate both passed bills to liberalize the use of small scale consumer fireworks and admitted that he was lobbied by the firemen lobby and he used their opinions and "feelings" and emotions to decide against the state voter constituency's legislation and vetoe'd the bill.
Now I'm not a huge fanboy for fireworks, couldn't care less, but this is a key example of the mentality of "mother knows best" and it runs sooo deep here.
This is also the state where the governor alone tried to unionize all private home daycare centers whether they wanted to be union or not, in a clear example of trying to force union membership rolls to grow as repayment for him winning the election. This would force these new members to pay dues, and to offset the cost, raise their rates.
If the school operates in MN, I would say yes, an online school in China would need to register.
The biggest difference might be the likelihood of enforcement. The school in china will likely never be in the reach to collect any penalties. The schools in America will be because the other states will honor MN's legal process when they come looking for them.
Minnesota doesn't need a great firewall. They need to either update their laws, or the schools operating in the state need to register. It isn't that hard of a concept and Schools generally are not third grade dropouts too illiterate to follow the procedures. They can either comply with the law, loby to get it changed, or ignore it and do a disclaimer claiming they do not operate within the state and let students enroll anyways. The law carries no penalties for the students going to the schools not registered.
It probably is compatible with the first amendment for a couple of reasons. First, it requires registration of all schools, not just some. Second, it really isn't much different then the states requiring teachers and lawyers and doctors and plumbers, and whatever else to be registered or licensed through the state.
But then again, there is no reason not to test the issue, it might not be after all. Unfortunately, I think in the long run, it might be cheaper to register then to fight it. Especially if it winds it's way to higher and higher courts.
What about the newer saying: Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I am officially gone from
and...she has what to do with this?
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
she may be an idiot but what worries me more is that the other side cant put anyone against her worth voting her out for. Call her all the names you want, i do, but the truth is, the other side cant compete
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
I completely understand your concerns. However, the law was written at a time when online education wasn't nearly the thing we have today. The law says something about making available to citizens of the state not having to leave the state to complete the course offerings.
20 years ago or more (1975 is when another said the law originated), the situation we find ourselves in today was probably not even close to the capabilities of the time without actually falling into that category because the ability to get information was so different then. It was more then likely that the institution would have actually advertised in the state. This is probably one of the best cases of where a law actually needs updated to keep up with different tech advantages we have now.
Out of curiosity I went to https://www.coursera.org/. What do I at once on the first page?
Introduction to Genetics and Evolution
Follow the money trail...
Oops, wait, its free. Oh, so its not generating salaries for the teachers, administrators, lobbyists...
There's your problem!
"Unless Coursera are offering highly biased education or in some way poisoning the minds of those that take their courses the people that are opposing them are opposing the basic human right to knowledge."
Well, there went Liberty University!
I live in Minnesota, and I'm going to take courses through Coursera starting today!
Civil disobedience, bitches!
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
It's way at the end, and all told, would be about $5000 in direct payments and another twenty thou in administrative costs, plus $1500/annum fee to maintain registration.
So, if every university that participates in Coursera applied and paid, it'd be a pretty peony.
I can drive over a bridge and be in an educationally forward thinking state and hot bed of academic progress, Superior, Wisconsin! I CANT believe this is true. DIY EDU is the future of Higher Ed and MN should be on the leading edge, not some ineffectual backwater. Here's the letter I sent to the Office of Higher Ed. Please explain how this is possible. Are you saying that , in fact, I am subject to some form of legal action if I attempt to better myself through free course offerings as a resident of Minnesota? Please explain the logic in this? Am I in violation of law by pursuing free online knowledge? If this is the case, please put me at the head of the line for legal action! I just took the Coursera MOOC on Gamification, I'm expecting the certification to arrive any day, I dont want a "coursera degree" - they DONT EXSIST! I did well in the course. It was eminently rewarding and I know that I will be able to directly apply the knowledge I gained in the course in the pursuit of my professional goals. If I create taxed income based on the knowledge I gained in the course, will the state of MN want a part of that? I live in Duluth. Should I go to Superior WI and do the coursework? Please contact me asap, I plan on pursuing more MOOC coursework and want to know if I'm breaking the law.