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Dutch Ministry Proposes Powers For Police To Hack Computers, Install Spyware
hypnosec writes "The Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security has proposed some rather over the line measures and wants to extend such powers to the police that would allow them to break into computers and mobile phones in any part of the world. According to the proposal (PDF in Dutch), dated October 15, the ministry has asked for powers that would allow police to not only break into computers, but also allow them to install spyware, search for data in those computers, and destroy data. As explained by digital rights group 'Bits of Freedom,' which obtained the copy of the proposal, if the Dutch police get such powers, the security of computer users would be lessened and there will be a 'perverse incentive to keep information security weak.'"
This sounds a lot like the idiotic stuff formulated in the preliminary list of internet security legislation that was posted two months ago.
But what do I know?
I'm sick and tired of seeing these new laws proposed almost weekly! What the heck is going and who is pushing towards all these new law propositions for allowing breaking into users computers, reading their email, tracking all activity and attempts at controlling the internet.
I wont allow these bastards who know nothing about how things even work to control this network of ours. They are trying take away our basic freedom all the time to communicate freely. They know that free speech is harmful for the powers that be. Enough already!
I call all sysadmins and network administrators to start opposing these law enforcers! We have the power to make the change. We are the ones who install these rules into production, and we are the ones who can stop this madness. And those who continue oppressing us, know this: f*ck you! You will not win. Give up already and let's try to work together instead of assuming everyone is a damn terrorist.
GeoKone.NET
What happens if the police do actual damage to important infrastructure. Either civic or private?
Or if police introduce a vulnerability that allows the above?
Don't mess with active systems.
This is what happens when 1) make mundane activities (like saying something cheeky online) illegal, and 2) insist that law enforcement do something about it.
Law enforcement says " I need to do X to accomplish Y." Government and public supporters say "ok, just crack down on Y for us, ok?"
Later, government says "cracking down on Y isn't enough! We have to make W P and Q illegal, and work to stop that too, to keep our citizens safe!" (Where "safe" is a ephemeral and impossible goal, like achieving lightspeed. Each increment toward the goal comes at exponentially higher costs, and you can never actually get there anyway.)
Law enforcement says "we need all kinds of expanded powers for that!"
Rinse, repeat, until people need licenses to speak, wear only government sanctioned clothing, are put on government regulated diets, and live with a swarm of automated security drones following them everywhere.
"To infinity and beyond!" Takes on a sharply malign connotation here.
The initial problems are less severe than the consequences of policing it. Rather than capitulate to further erosion of rights and libertis, we should just say no.
1984 Reloaded
What are they going to do? They'd be screwed, right? I've recently thought about building some kind of virtual honeypot fronting as my connection to the outside world, with nothing actually sensitive in it. If someone broke into it, it would be so much fun to play games with the attackers.
Ezekiel 23:20
They would have to somehow get me to run the program on my computer first. Good luck with that.
Privacy is over rated unless you have something to hide.
How is this any different than allowing police to break into homes and install covert cameras? Do they already allow this?
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I can remember a time when the Netherlands was certainly the most laid-back, uncritical country in Europe - possible the world.
Will be illegal to use safe, hack proofer operating systems? Will need to have commercial operating systems some kind of mandated government backdoor to have a chance to be used in Germany?
And there is the problem that if you leave a door for government, even if you trust blindly on them (and in the next government and all the people involved in this), others could eventually use it
Read it again, Sam! They're going for powers to do that to ANY COMPUTER ON THE PLANET!
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
We have police to stop crimes, not to commit them. What this dude just did, was proposing the commit of a crime at big scale.
-Woof woof woof!
A question heard is why?
Because Dutch law already allows most of the proposed access under present regulations.
Contrary to often referenced US law Dutch law is written in general terms, we regulate official/police access to 'the home' and that includes things like telephone or internet and a judge can allow such access right now.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
This message was brought to you by People's Party for Freedom and Democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Party_for_Freedom_and_Democracy
Main force behind these kind of laws/proposals are always the parties that have Freedom (to limit others) in their name (we have a couple of them) or from a Christian background (we know that is good for you plebs).
Good thing a country like Iran doesn't want to do this!
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
Sounds like a formal declaration of war on every other state's sovereignty to me.
They might want to pull back now before they become a smoking crater with a faint hint of weed.
...and the guy that proposed this is a total nitwit (1).
Nothing to be excited over, this is all grandstanding
to mask (1).
Your observation is, in fact, a trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PeoplesRepublicOfTyranny
FreedomBox is the answer!
And for a thought-provoking treatment of the issues, for sci-fi fans (or freedom fans, really), consider reading Cory Doctorow's "Little Brother", downloadable for free.
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
The modern trend in legislation is to grant police the power to bypass oversight, usually with the excuse that the courts "take too long".
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
Oh gods yes... VVD is the worst of it all because they have power. VVD = People's Party for Freedom and Democracy. But the PVV (Party for Freedom) are the ones that Wilders is using to spew his nonsense. Actually.. they split off from the VVD, so it's all the same anyway. I'm just glad Wilders didn't get to be the prime minister through the VVD somehow, I guess..
We've also got the CDA (Christian-Democratic Appeal, I guess?) that was in charge at the time the RFID-enabled mandatory ID cards were introduced... Well, I guess that's about it for Christian or Freedom. But there's been a few more, just as evil.
HACK THE PLANET!
Restore the madness of youth's lechery
and how exactly is this not effectively an ACT OF WAR??
I would think that if they are not very very careful %other_nation% might object very forcefully.
Also if they are mucking around with the files on a computer what is to say that they are not going to PLANT evidence??
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
The modern trend in legislation is to grant police the power to bypass oversight, usually with the excuse that the courts "take too long".
Usually the excuse is child pr0n
And this is granting the police to hack whenever they seem fit. Every time the citizens have to give up (internet)freedom it is about childpr0n. And do I have news for them. Those sickoś who are into that usually have everything locked up, off-line and encrypted... (Can you hear the gasps of the politicians reading this? Probably they think that ´ Dirty Hank' is using an un-patched windows 98 and uses his full name on all the fora )
I have enough confidence in the police to hack a standard install of windows, I dont think they will be able to get in a openBSD standard install with the usual honey-pots, intrusion detection, firewallś and multiple levels of encryption. So basically it is the he average user who is bothered, not the real baddies
Oh, and for another fun thing out of the slease-sleeve of Dutch minister of Justice... He wants the police to be able to gather DNA collected by hospitals who withdrew that for testing purposes in an other proposed law. FU volunteer, nice of you to help the medical sciences, but you are now also in the cops database, whether you like it (let alone approve it ) or not. That will make it even more easy for scientists to get volunteers huh? Medical ethics? Meh...blablabla..childpr0n blablablabla murder mumble... if you got nothing to hide bla bla... same old, same old.
I do think that the baddies should be found and taken care of, but not at ALL costs... Treating EVERYONE as a potential criminal is a step to far IMHO.
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
at least in the US that is actually very True.
While the Justice department shares legal code with the Department of Defense if you are in the military then you go before the Judge Advocate General and they use the Uniform Code Of Military Justice.
true fact a guy in the process of doing a crime could choose which court he wants by making sure he does/does not wait until he is separated from the military.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Yes, and that has already happened. This is the push to avoid judges post hoc, but attain permission pre hoc.
The nuance: The proposal is to have law enforcement ask a certain type of judge to approve the hacking before it occurs, similar to the way phone taps are approved.
It would furthermore only be allowable when somebody is suspect of severe crimes, f.i. a crime for which the maximum sentence is at least 4 years of incarceration (note the wording here, one would assume 'suspected terrorist' is sufficient).
Realistically, though, the whole thing should be comparable to phone taps and one should either oppose both or deem both to be acceptable.
The majority of our (recently elected) parliament is supportive of the proposal (including the parties that are most probably going to form a coalition government), although many members of parliament note that when an actual law is proposed, the protection of privacy should be more strictly worded (in the sense that minor 'crimes' should not warrant government hacking).
So, some Dutch bureaucrats want to give their cops the authority to commit acts of war? Who do they think they are, the USA?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Note how the authorities never use the sledgehammer approach to stamping out crime (and potential crime) committed by politicians and police. It's only the citizenry that are subject to such heavy-handed approaches.
When it comes to politicians and police they tread softly, and with surgical precision. (If at all.)
Serious, if a computer is
a) So easily broken into
b) Now infected with spyware
How could evidence from it not be considered tainted?
So far on the list...
Most of China
Most of Eastern Europe
Africa
Soon... the Netherlands....
Note how the authorities never use the sledgehammer approach to stamping out crime (and potential crime) committed by politicians and police. It's only the citizenry that are subject to such heavy-handed approaches.
When it comes to politicians and police they tread softly, and with surgical precision. (If at all.)
And here I am all out of mod points.
If this doesn't get a +5 there is something wrong with the mods. It deserves it and you know it. He spoke the truth.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
At least we're not The Netherlands!
I agree. Mod this fucker up.
I saw surveillance cam footage of a cop in a nearby village (small town in the US)- off duty, breaking the antenna off a car in a parking lot and using it to beat his wife with it until she was on the ground in a fetal position screaming for help. I do not think she was seriously hurt outside some welts in various places. The day after this happened, someone was sentenced to 5 years in prison for domestic violence for telling his spouse he would kill her if she ever returned to his home again. He then shoved her out the door and she fell obtaining a few bruises. This supposedly happened after he caught her cheating with someone else moments earlier. The other guy ran and wasn't involved in the domestic violence.
The cop, he was sentenced to time served (over night) and had to complete an anger management course with 100 hours community service.
Another instance that recently happened which baffles the mind. An under aged woman (drinking age) called a friend who was a county sheriff claiming she was drunk and needed a ride home. He went to a bar outside of town and met her. Nothing has been said about if she was drinking at the bar or pulled into it after trying to drive from somewhere else and realizing she was to intoxicated to drive. The sheriff deputy went to get her, convinced her to follow him back to his house, then started making sexual advances towards her. The woman decided she wanted nothing of it and tried to leave. The Deputy wouldn't let her leave, she escaped and went outside. He subdued her using choke-holds and and various other aspects of his training even kicking and punching her. A few people saw this happening while exiting a near by bar and went over to prevent what they described as a rape in progress according to the 911 call. The deputy was arrested under suspicion of kidnapping, sexual assault, criminal assault, and something else by the town police. 3 weeks later, all charges against him had been dropped and he resigned from the Sheriff's department. 2 weeks after that, he was hired as a police deputy in a neighboring town and rumor has it that his pay actually increased in the process.
It seems like the justice system is really code for Just us as far as they are concerned.
What makes you think the US is not already doing this?
Have two computers one for using the internet and keeping basic software, also for downloading (laptop) And another that stays offline.. It is pretty laughable the Dutch are doing this, of course the question is if the "Big Media" have pushed for something this extreme?
When those charged with our safety and protection, ask for the right to commit crimes and atrocities against the very people whom they're deign to protect, it is fair to say the machine is broken. The appropriate answer to this request is "HELL NO!!! Are you smoking crack!!! You can't enforce the law by wiping your ass on it, and you can't protect liberty by gutting it. NO, HELL NO!!!!
Realistically, though, the whole thing should be comparable to phone taps and one should either oppose both or deem both to be acceptable
No, this is more like them being allowed to rummage around in your house when you aren't there, and planting a bomb. This is much different than passively listening to phone conversations.
You are right in pointing out that there is a distinction between active and passive and in that sense my comparison is flawed.
When it comes to privacy, however, "rummaging around in your house" isn't really any worse than listening to phone conversations. I think some (most?) people would rather allow the police to look through all the stuff in their house than to listen to all their phone conversations. I'm betting most people in the organized crime business would.
The reference to planting a bomb is of course ridiculous (although, again, I agree with you that being allowed to delete data is more far reaching than simply monitoring/breaking in). Bombs can kill people. Removing data from a computer not so much. If anything, it would be comparable to removing all the pamphlets furthering 'the 21st century Endlösung' from your house once you are suspected of murder. Of course the normal issues concerning censorship and free speech apply here.
By the way, not completely unsurprising, the main example mentioned in the proposal is removing child porn from servers.
As in all crime prevention versus privacy issues, by far the most important factor is not the power of what is legitimized, but the point at which it is legitimized. Few people consider it a problem that the police (and military!) is armed and legitimized to kill people, given the provisions that they can only do so in very specific cases.
Most people are fine with phone taps on organized crime, but are not ok with phone taps on people with speeding tickets.
I guess that what should be discussed here is what would be sufficient evidence for approving intrusion into and/or intervening with the data on electronic computing devices.
.. any politician who is in support of increased intercept powers with lesser controls MUSt agree to have these applied to his or her own life for a period no shorter than a full year, and the results published.
If that test year worked, maybe it's worth considering. If they are not prepared to do that, it means that there are problems with the law which means any OTHER citizen should not be exposed to it either.
Please feel free to post improvements, but in a democratic state I think some more direct control over politicians and the state is warranted.
Oh, sorry, did I use the word "democratic"? Yeah, sorry. My bad.
Insert
Since hacking into others computers is against the law, then the people trying to over ride this law should be arrested for treason and arrested as spies. Installing anything in anyone else's computers without their express permission is a direct violation of a persons rights of privacy. These people trying to get these powers should be arrested right now...not later.....They have already violated the peoples rights to privacy by even coming public with this line of thought. Maybe Anonymous should hack into their computers and make public what he finds. I bet they are hiding all kinds of illegal things on their computers. Arrest them for trying to become spies of their own people. They must want a war between the people and the government. Privacy is privacy.
Realistically, though, the whole thing should be comparable to phone taps and one should either oppose both or deem both to be acceptable.
Of course you know that the Netherlands are far too fond of phone tapping?
the police state is getting scarily visible all across europe, must have something to do with ageing populace and fearing what you don't understand. Format c: keeps the doctor away. I wonder how much fun some kind of 'hacker collective' could have with this making cops run around all across the globe by setting bits of info here and there. Took the CIA/FBI ten years to find bin laden and he was more or less not the smartest hacker on the globe let's say.
they can hardly outsmart, they needed a rat to dig out lulzsec for instance. This could be , euhm, a tool for chaos created by the lawmongers themselves. How long would it take for the code to be hacked, cracked, recognized, scanned for and used
I can see the hacker-ego-point-value in finding a lolly way to do it as well.
another great idea
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
eeh yea before i get sympathized with i'll admit the binladen was a bit an unlucky choice, the point is these 'police' are usually only strong in numbers when it comes to that, this would do way more harm. best artists never join that side do they, must be a brain thing somehow
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?