Slashdot Mirror


Supreme Court To Hear First Sale Doctrine Case

Registered Coward v2 writes "The U.S. Supreme Court is set to hear a case to determine how copyright law and the doctrine of first sale applies to copyrighted works bought overseas, then imported to the U.S. and then re-sold. The case involves a foreign student who imported textbooks from Asia and the resold them in the U.S. to help fund his education. He was sued by the publisher, lost, and was ordered to pay $600,000 in damages. Now SCOTUS gets to weigh in on the issue. 'The idea -- upheld by the Supreme Court since 1908 -- is that once a copyright holder legally sells a product initially, the ownership claim is then exhausted, giving the buyer the power to resell, destroy, donate, whatever. It's a limited idea -- involving only a buyer's distribution right, not the power to reproduce that DVD or designer dress for sale. ... The tricky part is whether that first-sale doctrine applies to material both manufactured and first purchased outside the United States. Federal law gives that authority to a purchaser's work "lawfully made under this title." Does "this title" apply to any copyrighted work — whether manufactured all or in part in the United States and around the world?"

242 comments

  1. Great Cases and Bad Law by skywire · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Great cases like hard cases make bad law. For great cases are called great, not by reason of their importance... but because of some accident of immediate overwhelming interest which appeals to the feelings and distorts the judgment."

    Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

    --
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    1. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I understand why the corps want it to make a difference, and I understand why the purchasers want it not to, but what's the actual argument in favor of having different property rights just because something came from another country?

    2. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by DevConcepts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How much of what is purchased in the US is actually made in the US?
      That should be 1/2 of the problem solved.
      How far down the rabbit hole will this go?
      Order a car part from Germany and then find out you don't need it, can you sell it? Legally?

    3. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, the Supreme Court will probably uphold the lower court's judgment, not because they think the law is just, but because they will agree that the lower court was right about what the law IS. It's a stupid law and you might even see that expressed in the opinion, but they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

    4. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      If you sell it, is it right to sell it at the German price you purchased it for (plus some markup for shipping), or the price that competing American manufacturers sell it for?

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    5. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does "is it right?" have to do with anything? This is about the law.

    6. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      And it isn't. The legislature makes the law, and the courts just figure out how it applies to each case.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    7. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Mitreya · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, the Supreme Court will probably uphold the lower court's judgment,

      Ah, between Citizen United, the binding arbitration clause (I forget the name) and this case, aren't we "the people" screwed?
      Soon, we'll just receive pamphlets from corporations that have 51% shares in our local city and follow these instead of any government laws...

    8. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Roogna · · Score: 1

      Well I -should- be able to sell it for any price I desire, even at great loss to myself. Because if I'm willing to say, take a loss on the part just to get it out of my garage. Why should -anyone- be able to tell me I can't make that choice?

    9. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      It's neither right nor wrong. It's simply irrelevant.

    10. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      And it isn't. The legislature makes the law, and the courts just figure out how it applies to each case.

      Except in the case of the Supreme Courts of countries, where they must also decide whether the law is compatible with the principles of the country (i.e., the constitution).

    11. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by avandesande · · Score: 1

      A more likely scenario would be camera companies going after grey market cameras sold in the US.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    12. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      The logic they will use is that allowing these controls lets them to sell in different prices in different countries allows them to sell in India at prices Indians can afford while still staying in business. They will paint it as being charitable towards poor nations instead of gouging wealthy nations. It's a complete load of crap, but SCOTUS has accepted plenty of worse arguments on copyright.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    13. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      ...they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      And it isn't. The legislature makes the law, and the courts just figure out how it applies to each case.

      Except in the case of the Supreme Courts of countries, where they must also decide whether the law is compatible with the principles of the country (i.e., the constitution).

      In which case, it may go back to the legislature again in the form of a constitutional amendment.

    14. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by davecb · · Score: 1

      In fact, the most interesting question here is "what question is the court trying?"

      Because of precedent, most questions have already been answered in part, and what will be decided is a particular, typically smaller, part that was not properly addressed by the first "answer". This means that justice has to be achieved by squeezing in between the existing judgments and distinguishing the case in some way.

      If, instead, the original answer was wrong, the defendant has to attempt to overturn the whole of the law and precedent. This is exceedingly hard, as no court wishes to make wholesale changes in the law of the land. Dred Scot followed precedent, and found slavery legal. That was only overturned by the Emancipation Proclamation, the War Between the States and the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth amendments to the American Constitution.

      Roe vs Wade was very nearly an overturning of the existing system of law, as it made abortion part of the constitutional question of privacy, and caused great concern among observers of the courts, including jurists on either side of the question. It is notable that only a very vexed question, that of abortion, resulted in such a major change.

      This is one of the weaknesses of systems of precedent, with or without an overarching constitution: all too many questions will be decided on a minor point, as the major decisions are considered unchangeable.

      Consider, now, Wikipedias' explanation of pilpul, as "conceptual extrapolation from texts in efforts to reconcile various texts or to explain fundamental differences of approach between various earlier authorities, ... " which is followed by te comment "Many leading rabbinic authorities harshly criticized this method as being unreliable and a waste of time, and it is regarded by some as having been discredited by the time of the Vilna Gaon." [i.e., circa 1797]

      Anyone see a parallel here, and a concomitant risk of deciding the case on a nearly unrelated point?

      --dave (:-)) c-b

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    15. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      , but they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      Actually it is. You know "checks and balances"
      The lawmakers make them, Executive branches authorizes, and the judicial branch says whether they are just or unjust.

    16. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A more likely scenario would be camera companies going after grey market cameras sold in the US.

      The concept of a grey market is just wrong. It should never be unclear for a citizen if what he does is legal or not. Unless it is clear that it is illegal the market is white.

    17. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      ...they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      And it isn't. The legislature makes the law, and the courts just figure out how it applies to each case.

      ... or whether it contradicts other laws or the Constitution.

    18. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      , but they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      Actually it is. You know "checks and balances" The lawmakers make them, Executive branches authorizes, and the judicial branch says whether they are just or unjust.

      No. Whether they are just or unjust is never considered. They only consider cases in the following aspects: -what the law says
      -whether it was rightly applied in the particular case
      -whether Congress or the State had the power to make such a law
      -whether it violates another law (typically the Constitution in cases that reach the Supreme Court).

    19. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      ...they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      And it isn't. The legislature makes the law, and the courts just figure out how it applies to each case.

      Except in the case of the Supreme Courts of countries, where they must also decide whether the law is compatible with the principles of the country (i.e., the constitution).

      That's just a refinement of deciding how the law applies. In principle at least, the courts confine themselves to what the law is (including the Constitution).

    20. Re:Great Cases and Bad Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...they'll probably say that it's not their job to decide whether the law is stupid or unjust.

      And it isn't. The legislature makes the law, and the courts just figure out how it applies to each case.

      Ah, but it IS the responsibility and purview of the SCOTUS, as outlined by the U.S. Constitution, to determine the legality, boundaries, equality, relevance, and yes, applicability of any law or case brought before them. The real fly in the ointment here is that they, the SCOTUS, have the right and authority to select which issues or cases they will even hear or review.

  2. Threads That Bind by AtomicSnarl · · Score: 1

    As if EULA on software wasn't bad enough...

    --
    Pacifist paratroopers yell, "Ghandi!" when they jump.
    1. Re:Threads That Bind by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Well for SW it's claimed it's a licence, thus you cannot resell the licence.

      Of course it too has certain protections and if those are to the benefit to the consumer then it's switched around to say it's a normal purchase.

  3. The priests of the moldering document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do they ever make great rulings or do they make rulings out of whim and perhaps tradition? Those quislings and they are if you consider them traitors to the people suck up to government and corporations and do so time and time again.

    It is getting worse and the document is rotting further. There's such a weight of precedent and wheedling and interpretation that you cannot read the constitution and know what the court might yield.

    We should be able to individually vote to dismiss those priests and if that happens they lose everything, health care, retirement, ability to every work for government or hold a position of public trust or profit or to work for any entity that takes government money.

    Since this is not about that moldering document, it's about the living fiction then they should be hung by it at the displeasure of the citizen.

    1. Re:The priests of the moldering document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And on the flip side if the priests of the court are to be considered immutable then if they overturn a lower court dismiss the entire court, all of it, all priests, clerks, employees with the same damning restrictions, loss of retirement and blacklisting.

      When or how will we remove this cancer?

    2. Re:The priests of the moldering document by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      You are proposing that an ignorant mob should kill Supreme Court Justices. Why don't you say so directly instead of using all the fancy verbiage?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  4. could mean the death of us manufacturing by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If first sale is held not to apply to goods manufactured outside the United States, every product we buy will be accompanied by a non transferable shrink wrap license,

    1. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by 91degrees · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's about being manufactured and sold outside the US. Whether a product licensed and sold in another country needs explicit permission to be resold in the US. Once it is legally sold in the US, first sale rights apply to the purchaser.

    2. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Cutting_Crew · · Score: 1

      everyone jsut stop buying hondas and watch the tides turn.

    3. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by peragrin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why Honda's are made in the USA. it is fords, GM's and such that are made in mexico and shipped here.

      Honda, Toyota, Nissan all manufacture more cars in the USA than Ford or GM do.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    4. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Streetlight · · Score: 0

      If something - a book, cell phone, car - is manufactured outside the US for export to the US, is it being sold outside the US to the importer. Apple, for instance, has Foxconn manufacture its phones in China for export to the US. Does Apple buy the phones from Foxconn in China then import them to the US for sale here? Where does the first sale take place and who is the first owner?

      It could be that Apple is in the same position as the student who imported books for resale in the US. Interesting...

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    5. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if apple doesn't have rights to distribute the IP in the phone. The real question at heart here is one of jurisdiction. If I sell a book to you in the Phillipines, under Phillipino law, and my agreement with you says not for export to the US, once the book is exported to the US, does 1st sale doctrine apply. This is an interesting question.

    6. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      If "First Sale" does not apply then how the hell can a Store who bought the property sell it to consumers? Hmm? Oh, sure some stores have direct permission from the manufacturers, but What about Amazon? What about the mom-and pop corner store that buys many of their goods from big-box stores and sells at a higher price in trade for convenience? Garage sales?

      IMO, The "ownership" of any matter or idea or other energy configuration is terminated when it leaves your possession or head. If you don't want folks re-selling, don't sell. If you don't want folks using your idea, don't share it. If you don't want folks copying your movie, don't publish it. If you don't want folks using the repairs to the car, don't fix it. Don't work for free then extort money from us to recoup costs. Instead, only do the work (game, movie, car repair, home building, etc) after you've got a contract to be paid for it. Afterwards, the fruits of your labor belongs to those who paid you for it.

      You can only control your own actions, not the actions of others. Everyone knows this, but we still let others control our actions while they do what we are forbidden? It's an essential misunderstanding of the Universe: Any fool can see that ownership does not extend beyond their immediate possession.

      If you want to continue to own the thing I've purchased then I'm renting it, and the price should reflect this -- Also, I'd like a replacement for your item that I'm using breaks. Oh, you want me to deal with stuff like breakage and wear and tear? Then I guess it's mine to do with as I please.

      If you outlaw sales, only outlaws will have sales!

    7. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It could be that Apple is in the same position as the student who imported books for resale in the US. Interesting...

      Apple is buying these phones with explicit licence to resell in the US. Reselling the textbooks isn't illegal. It's doing so without the rightsholder's permission.

    8. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Of course Apple owns the iPhone's intellectual property. If anything, FoxConn has to license IP from Apple for the purposes of manufacturing Apple's stuff. That license dictates, among other things, that no iPhones will exit the back door.

    9. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Then comes the definition of "sold". Do the manufacturers "sell" the product to the distributors? Is that "sale" outside the US? It is about multinational companies creating local monopolies through licensing.

      Another point to ponder is the question of legality. Is contravening a license breaking the law? I seem to remember a EULA case where breaking a license was a tort offence not a criminal one. They are two different things. It would seem that by law the books could be sold in the US but by contract they could not. Which leads to another point. Is a "no export" contract valid when there is a monopoly on the sale of an item required by the course of study? There is little choice involved; if one wants the credit one must buy the book therefore one is forced into the contract. That could be viewed as being under duress and contracts signed under duress are null and void.

    10. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Apple isn't buying the phones from Foxconn with explicit licensing to resell. it's contracting with Foxconn to manufacture the phones according to Apple's design.

    11. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      If "First Sale" does not apply then how the hell can a Store who bought the property sell it to consumers? Hmm? Oh, sure some stores have direct permission from the manufacturers, but What about Amazon? What about the mom-and pop corner store that buys many of their goods from big-box stores and sells at a higher price in trade for convenience? Garage sales?

      The wholesaler grants a onetime non-transferable license to sell the product, and the included end user license. Violation of the terms of such license (including honoring the msrp, for instnce) mean that repeat orders will not be honored.

      The mom and pop store might just be screwed.

    12. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

      The doctrine was first recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. 109. In the Bobbs-Merrill case, the publisher, Bobbs-Merrill, had inserted a notice in its books that any retail sale at a price under $1.00 would constitute an infringement of its copyright. The defendants, who owned Macy's department store, disregarded the notice and sold the books at a lower price without Bobbs-Merrill's consent. The Supreme Court held that the exclusive statutory right to "vend" applied only to the first sale of the copyrighted work.

      Shrink wrap licenses are the whole point of First Sale. Once an object is sold to you the owner loses all rights to it. Any papers included with the object become void.

    13. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there's still no problem. Apple can't sue itself for infringing its exclusive rights in its own product.

    14. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      The Japanese factories in the US are largely non-union shops unlike the domestic brand ones.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    15. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      This is primarily about tort and contract law. Here's how I understand it.

      Suppose a designer designs branded hats, and the trademark brand becomes popular. The designer doesn't really want to deal with manufacturing or marketing so sells the rights to manufacture and sell them in Europe to a company called London Fashions. and the rights to manufacture and sell them in the US to a company called New York Designs. Each has a contract that allows them to sell only in their respective territory.

      If London Fashions starts selling the branded hats in the US, New York Designs might well be upset about this and sue London Fashions for violating their exclusive rights. IP law varies between countries over what's allowed, and varies between types of IP, so I may be wrong here but generally speaking copyright law will back up this position.

      If I go to Europe, buy the designer hat and bring it to the US, this is, of course, perfectly legal. I'm not violating anyone's right.

      So, what if another company buys from London Fashions and they import them to the US? Can New York Designs sue them for violating their exclusive rights? If no, what if this intermediate company is a subsidiary of London Fashions? What if they then hire a third company? If yes, then can a private individual buy a hat in Europe and resell it in the US? What if he buys lots of hats and makes a considerable profit from doing so?

      Seems to me that this is about where the line is drawn.

    16. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by jklovanc · · Score: 2

      So, what if another company buys from London Fashions and they import them to the US? Can New York Designs sue them for violating their exclusive rights?

      No

      If no, what if this intermediate company is a subsidiary of London Fashions? What if they then hire a third company?

      This can be easily covered in the licensing contract with a clause like "London fashions, it subsidiaries and agents may not sell the licensed product outside Europe."

      If yes, then can a private individual buy a hat in Europe and resell it in the US?

      Yes he should be able to.

      What if he buys lots of hats and makes a considerable profit from doing so?

      That is called the free market.
      London Fashions is restrained by contract as to where they, their subsidiaries or agents can sell the item. A person who buys from London Fashions is not a party to that contract as they never signed it. Therefore they can do anything they want with the item purchased.

    17. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      There are still all sorts of difficulties. What if I import from a company in a country that has no IP protection? What about other possible ways to end run IP protection?

      What about consumer rights? Trademarks help protect those as well. Perhaps the American product is known and recognised for its quality and the European one isn't. A purchases buys the imported one thinking it has the same high quality standards that he expects, and it falls to pieces after a few days.

    18. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is relevant how?

    19. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      What if I import from a company in a country that has no IP protection

      That would be handled under existing import laws as the items would not have been manufactured under a license and therefore not able to be imported.

      Perhaps the American product is known and recognized for its quality and the European one isn't. A purchases buys the imported one thinking it has the same high quality standards that he expects, and it falls to pieces after a few days.

      If that is true the they are two different products and it is up to the copyright holder to require labeling to differentiate them.

    20. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Maybe. But there are still impracticalities and uncertainties. I could keep coming up with them and you could keep coming up with answers, but that will go on forever.

      Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with your ideas. I just think that there are always going to be areas of uncertainty where different people might disagree. This is a problem with any legal framework.

      The other factor here is that IP law as is tends to be a little more protective than you or I believe it should be. The supreme court will ideally rule on the law as written. Unless this is unconstitutional, it's not going to be changed, nor should it be. That's the job of Congress.

    21. Re:could mean the death of us manufacturing by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Here is a quote about the Supreme Court and First Sale Doctrine:

      The doctrine was first recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. 109. In the Bobbs-Merrill case, the publisher, Bobbs-Merrill, had inserted a notice in its books that any retail sale at a price under $1.00 would constitute an infringement of its copyright. The defendants, who owned Macy's department store, disregarded the notice and sold the books at a lower price without Bobbs-Merrill's consent. The Supreme Court held that the exclusive statutory right to "vend" applied only to the first sale of the copyrighted work.

      All that needs to be decided is if First Sale Doctrine applies to sales made outside the US. If it is, any EUlA restricting sales after the first sale would be invalid.

  5. Abolish private property! We need communism now! by For+a+Free+Internet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All property relations in the past have continually been subject to historical change consequent upon the change in historical conditions.

    The French Revolution, for example, abolished feudal property in favour of bourgeois property.

    The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.

    In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

    We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man’s own labour, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.

    Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

    Or do you mean the modern bourgeois private property?

    But does wage-labour create any property for the labourer? Not a bit. It creates capital, i.e., that kind of property which exploits wage-labour, and which cannot increase except upon condition of begetting a new supply of wage-labour for fresh exploitation. Property, in its present form, is based on the antagonism of capital and wage labour. Let us examine both sides of this antagonism.

    To be a capitalist, is to have not only a purely personal, but a social status in production. Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay, in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society, can it be set in motion.

    Capital is therefore not only personal; it is a social power.

    When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character.

    Let us now take wage-labour.

    The average price of wage-labour is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer. What, therefore, the wage-labourer appropriates by means of his labour, merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence. We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labour, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labour of others. All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it.

    In bourgeois society, living labour is but a means to increase accumulated labour. In Communist society, accumulated labour is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the labourer.

    In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in Communist society, the present dominates the past. In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.

    And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

    By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.

    But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also

    --
    UNITE with the Campaign for a Free Internet because today, our future begins with tomorrow!
  6. It would be a reason to buy American by olsmeister · · Score: 2

    I think the case is ridiculous, but courts are famously lacking in common sense sometimes. If the defendant loses, I wonder if one of the unintended consequences would be to spur more sales of products 'Made In The USA'.

    1. Re:It would be a reason to buy American by clemdoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, I think it would rather lead to an increase of products 'made anywhere' but 'sold in the USA' by a company the copyright holder approves of, thereby leading to neither lower prices nor better availability.

    2. Re:It would be a reason to buy American by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      I think the case is ridiculous, but courts are famously lacking in common sense sometimes. If the defendant loses, I wonder if one of the unintended consequences would be to spur more sales of products 'Made In The USA'.

      I agree that this case is totally ridiculous. When a person buys a good, they have always had the right to sell it or otherwise dispose of it. Why should the origin of a product have anything to do with what the buyer does with it afterwards? If the Supreme Court should be foolish enough to decide against something that has been in place ever since this country was founded, their decision will likely be overridden by Congress, because of the huge outcry from ordinary people, who would be prevented from selling goods based on the arbitrary idea of where the item was originally made.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
  7. Easy answer.. by brxndxn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, first sale doctrine applies in this case. It's a no-brainer. Nobody here or in the court will be thinking about whether or not the foreign student stole the textbooks - because he did not. Nobody is accusing him of copying. Nobody is saying the items are counterfeit. The whole point of this case will be to try to figure out a tricky legal way to accuse the student of stealing. That is the only reason for debate. The 'under this title' part of the reasoning for debate is moot anyway since the law is meant to be applied equally - and equal application would mean 'lawfully made under this title' when the law agrees in both governing states (which is not even being argued.)

    The doctrine of first sale is a simple idea and concept - one that can apply easily in courts around the country and the world. The biggest problem we are all worried about is if our corrupt Surpreme Court will once again come up with complicated 'reasoning' to decide yet another case where the big corporation beats the young entrepreneur. If I want to copyright my apples and sell them for 1 penny in China and $3000 in Canada, why should I have any further control over the people in China realizing my ridiculous pricing? Free market capitalism and globalism needs to go both ways. If a corporation is free to charge different prices, the consumers or middle men should be free to resell them - until the price points meet market demands.

    What the Supreme Court should do is morally, lawfully, and reasonably easy to decide. What they will do is a big fucking can of worms because of the current move toward corporatism.

    --
    --- We need more Ron Paul!
    1. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe your worst fears will come true, given this story.

    2. Re:Easy answer.. by popo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > " If I want to copyright my apples and sell them for 1 penny in China and $3000 in Canada, why should I have any further control over the people in China realizing my ridiculous pricing?"

      Actually, the more compelling question is: Why would citizens of Canada continue to stay in Canada (or any other top-tier priced nation) where they are clearly being en-serfed under such policies.

      The evidence is growing that the so-called "First World" is for suckers.

      --
      ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    3. Re:Easy answer.. by camperdave · · Score: 4, Informative
      It's not so simple as you make it out to be. the law states:

      (a) Infringing Importation or Exportation.—
      (1) Importation.—
      Importation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copyright under this title, of copies or phonorecords of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the exclusive right to distribute copies or phonorecords under section 106, actionable under section 501.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Easy answer.. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well, I can sort of see why the law doesn't want to let you go jurisdiction shopping. If US law says any copy legally made under foreign law is equal to one made under US law then you can pick any one of 165+ copyright laws (Berne convention, more if any country) that is most favorable to you. Like in this case, I'm sure what they're worried about is that you can make an online shop and say the manufacture and sale happens outside the US, it is only delivered to the US which circumvents any local law.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you apply the law under which the first sale occurs? What if that law includes no such first sale doctrine, or if it allows the non-exportability clause to be enforced?

    6. Re:Easy answer.. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      It seems to me the First Sale doctrine is about consumer rights. When you buy something, it is yours to dispose of any way you like, including reselling. Where you actually bought it should be irrelevant, and this claim that it is seems to me like a perversion of the law.

      Of course you'll want some laws to govern parallel imports and such, but they should be separate laws, like they are in Europe. Here, we have restrictions on importing goods to govern that. You can bring a few copies of a book into the country at most, anything more is the prerogative of the copyright holder. But those few copies should by rights be yours to dispose of as you please.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    7. Re:Easy answer.. by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      Actually, the more compelling question is: Why would citizens of Canada continue to stay in Canada (or any other top-tier priced nation)

      Not sure what exactly the question states
      Because you _cannot_ make a first-tier salary while living in a third-tier country? Leave Canada for China and you will be downgraded to an average Chinese salary. Corporations are able to get labor in the third-tier poor countries and sell you stuff at the first-tier prices, since that's where you live.

      But good luck trying to get the reverse and make US salary living in China (or even UK Salary in british pounds while living in US). Globalization was not meant to benefit peons like us. Hell, good luck importing a DVD from the US to Europe or to Australia.

    8. Re:Easy answer.. by Solandri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Free market capitalism and globalism needs to go both ways. If a corporation is free to charge different prices, the consumers or middle men should be free to resell them - until the price points meet market demands.

      I would abstract that principle even further. If a corporation is free to move manufacturing overseas where it's cheaper, then likewise people should be free to buy products overseas for cheaper and import them into the U.S. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    9. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What defines an import? What if I were to purchase it whilst on holiday then bring it with me on my return? Will CBP now be confiscating any copyrighted work brought into the US?

    10. Re:Easy answer.. by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Globalization has enabled hundreds of millions to people to rise from poverty and many into middle-class, but since those are Chinese and Indonesians and not privileged Americans, they don't count, right?

      The hypocrisy and selfishness disguised as anti-corporativism is disgusting.

    11. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There may be a good reason for different pricing in different market segments, and we absolutely protect companies that wish to do so against people that try to hedge the market by re-selling goods bought in one segment to people in another segment. I'll give two examples:
          * Movie theatres don't care if you give your movie ticket to another person. It's transferable. But a senior's movie ticket, bought at a discounted price in order to encourage seniors to go to the movies, is not transferable to a non-senior.
          * Big pharma spends ridiculous amounts of money on R&D. An anti-AIDS drug can cost billions of dollars to produce. However, the majority of that cost is borne by those in the west who can afford (maybe through insurance) $100 / week in drugs. Africans are given the drug, virtually at cost, usually so the company can drum up good PR. This is a win-win for everybody. However, you can see what would happen if people start importing and re-selling these drugs into western markets: the company would stop selling the drug in Africa, and there'd be a whole lot of dead people that could otherwise be saved.

    12. Re:Easy answer.. by Mitreya · · Score: 2

      Globalization has enabled hundreds of millions to people to rise from poverty and many into middle-class, but since those are Chinese and Indonesians and not privileged Americans, they don't count, right?

      hm...? I am not saying "down with globalization" - I am happy for any non-American that rose out of poverty (just as I would be for an American that rose out of poverty) .

      But none of this explains why Australians can't buy a DVD or a game from US at US prices. Let _everyone_ benefit from globalization.

    13. Re:Easy answer.. by _8553454222834292266 · · Score: 1

      I should also be free to live in any country I want. Corporations get to exploit labor in all countries but I'm trapped in the US labor market.

    14. Re:Easy answer.. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Living in a Foxconn dormitory isn't "middle class".

      Even in the Soviet Union they had higher expectations than that.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    15. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What defines an import? What if I were to purchase it whilst on holiday then bring it with me on my return? Will CBP now be confiscating any copyrighted work brought into the US?

      Yes, they can, if the license used in the jurisdiction you purchased in did not allow export. A friend who was stationed overseas for a couple of years had it happen to him when he returned to the US.

    16. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't giving the owner of the copyright for one copy gives you rights over that copy?

      So, unless the owner of the copyright robbed the kid of the purchase price, he have him his authority over that copy..

    17. Re:Easy answer.. by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Never said it was. But many (not most, unfortunately) have already moved up from that level.

      For the majority that hasn't, it still beats the alternative, which is all they would have if it wasn't for the "big bad" globalization.

    18. Re:Easy answer.. by icebraining · · Score: 1

      You said "Globalization was not meant to benefit peons like us," when in fact it does benefit a lot of "peons". It just doesn't benefit you.

      But none of this explains why Australians can't buy a DVD or a game from US at US prices

      Games cost more because you buy them at those prices, hence retailers and distributors have no incentive to lower them.
      Companies are like children, you can't complain they are lazy and don't do their homework if you reward such behavior.

      Stop paying and they'll drop.

    19. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm willing to bet he gets fucked by the supreme court and I'll tell you why. The companies involved don't want anyone scoring any earnings on arbitrage created by their price discrimination scam. They want to be the big earners and if this student's behavior is upheld, more people will engage in this behavior and the companies' vice-like grip on the proverbial nut sacs of those that must purchase texts would loosen... and we can't have that can we?

      I had to pay $240 for my graduate level managerial finance text, whose contents can be found in abundance on the internet. Guess how hard I'm kicking myself in the ass for not being an engineer because I found out too late I could do math if I just worked at it. (middle school teachers basically gave up on me. Then I got an A in engineering calculus that I was placed in instead of business calc. Go me! (total tangent))

    20. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not as no-brainer as you think. It hinges on whether the "in the united states" constrains "lawfully made under this title" (or whatever the exact phrases are). Court could go either way, Scalia et al are notoriously picky about language in situations like this.

      The flip side of your argument if the court overturns the verdict is this - how many companies would sell their stuff discounted in china etc if it could be imported to the US and hurt their domestic sales? You're effectively hurting US competitiveness by encouraging companies to sell at inflated prices overseas (more precisely, punishing those who don't). So all the China business goes to Chinese products instead of the overpriced American ones and we lose the Chinese market. Or so the counterargument goes - whether that's good or bad is an exercise for the reader.

    21. Re:Easy answer.. by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Doesn't giving the owner of the copyright for one copy gives you rights over that copy?

      Not at all. You own the media, but you have only been granted certain privileges to the contents of the media.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    22. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are wrong:

      a) Doesn't apply because it was brought for self consumption. So is not either an importation or exportation as it was not meant to be as a business act. This naturally only applies if the stated books where unique copies (not for instance 10 books of the same title, that would indicate business objective).
      1. You don't need authorization for bringing a book from anywhere to anywhere. The most that can happen is the book be forbidden in one of those places and be apprehended by the police. Publishers don't have the right to state such limitations.

      Additionally, there is no copy being made, so the right to distribute copies doesn't apply, because it is not an unauthorized copy. You can't have it both ways. Either is originally an authorized copy or it isn't.

    23. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mostly because they like living there. Quite a few things in Canada are sold for higher prices than the US; for example, look at the printed prices on a paperback book some time. Since most of the Canadian population live near the border with the US, quite a few people have been traveling south to take advantage of the price disparity recently, especially for gasoline. Some malls are being built in the US to cater to these Canadian customers, in fact. This, of course, is because the price difference reached a great enough point that the hassle is now worth it; it wasn't a few years ago when the Canadian dollar wasn't worth as much relative to the American one.

    24. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not at all. You own the media,

      That's not ownership. Ownership by definition is the right to control, such as on-selling to a third party.

      but you have only been granted certain privileges to the contents of the media.

      How convenient. As usual copyright fundamentalists want to call it ownership or licensing whenever convenient. Regardless of whether the media and the contents are inextricably linked or not. Hypocrites.

    25. Re:Easy answer.. by camperdave · · Score: 1

      How convenient. As usual copyright fundamentalists want to call it ownership or licensing whenever convenient. Regardless of whether the media and the contents are inextricably linked or not. Hypocrites.

      Well, that's the way the law is written. The only unqualified right to the data you have is the right to destroy it. Copying, backing up, selling, importing and exporting, making derivative works, performing, device shifting, format shifting, and even time shifting are all locked down in some way.

      By the way, don't think I'm on the copyright holder's side on this. I think they are going, and have gone, too far. My personal benchmark is that if it has been broadcast, then it is fair game. I could theoretically have received it and recorded it free of charge, so I feel no qualms about downloading it.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    26. Re:Easy answer.. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well, that's the way the law is written. The only unqualified right to the data you have is the right to destroy it. Copying, backing up, selling, importing and exporting, making derivative works, performing, device shifting, format shifting, and even time shifting are all locked down in some way.

      And to use it used to be unqualified, until they realized they can just lump the use restrictions in with the copyright protection and have them protected by the DMCA. In fact, almost nothing of this used to be locked down - somebody would have to take you to court to take action for it. Today it's all about putting into a super-DRM safe where you won't be able to do any backups, device shifting, format shifting, time shifting or anything else you used to be able to do in a limited fashion without breaking the law by removing the DRM. Since these things were only permitted and not rights, they managed to turn a huge number of activities from legal to illegal. Apart from copyright lasting infinity minus a day in 20 year increments that's the other big reason to hate modern copyright protection.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    27. Re:Easy answer.. by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      The 'under this title' part of the reasoning for debate is moot anyway since the law is meant to be applied equally - and equal application would mean 'lawfully made under this title' when the law agrees in both governing states (which is not even being argued.)

      First, I think you're confusing "equal protection" with this "equal application" thing, which is not actually a requirement.
      Second, the law here includes importation rights, which clearly must be differently applied to products inside the country vs. products outside the country, by definition.

    28. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfff ridiculous. Only corporations should be allowed to take advantage of global wage impalances to save money, not those consumer underlings.

    29. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't giving the owner of the copyright for one copy gives you rights over that copy?

      Not at all. You own the media, but you have only been granted certain privileges to the contents of the media.

      It would be more correct to say that you own the copy (the media and everything on it) but that the copyright holder has been granted certain temporary privileges to the contents of the media.

    30. Re:Easy answer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the hypocrite. Removing those manufacturing jobs from the U.S. plunged entire CITIES full of people into poverty and cratered the U.S. economy. We Americans are fully within our rights to be offended and angry about that. We would be lousy Americans if we WEREN'T offended and angry.

      Chinese people shouldn't be permitted to rise out of poverty by plunging Americans into it, while using American dollars to do so. Corporations that facilitate this should be forced out of business, their products boycotted.

  8. Gaming US by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 0

    Corporatism can't enjoy tax-free offshore AND onshore exceptionalism to in-situ laws native where their products may roam regardless if Kryptonite, Muscovite or Israelite in composition. To do otherwise, reduces a set of laws to mere rules. Rules define play. Playing the legal system is just gaming it. SCOTUS decides Robert's court or Kangaroo court for Globalism sake.

  9. Raises Many Questions by cob666 · · Score: 1

    The first is, if copyright doesn't apply in the US then the copyright holder has no right to prohibit resale.
    If copyright DOES apply in the US and the product was legally obtained (regardless of location) then the original copyright holder should again have NO right to prohibit resale, applying the first sale doctrine.

    Where this gets interesting is, will this ruling apply to ANYTHING manufactured overseas that has any type of copyright, such as computing devices and automobiles? Imagine not being able to sell your 4-5 year old car to buy a newer model. How will this ruling apply to things such as the secondary market for used CDs (many of which are imported)?

    I'm very curious as to how this is going to play out.

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    1. Re:Raises Many Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The publisher will also have their trademark on the book, so they can simply use this - you have been f'd over a long time ago. But you know what the WORST part is? That I had to remind you of it.

    2. Re:Raises Many Questions by rnturn · · Score: 2

      "Imagine not being able to sell your 4-5 year old car to buy a newer model. How will this ruling apply to things such as the secondary market for used CDs (many of which are imported)?"

      There is a possibility that can SCOTUS rules that individuals have no rights to sell anything used. Think that won't happen? Well, the Citizen's United case was much more narrowly defined than what eventually came out of the Roberts court. One can only hope that, if they rule that way, Congress will wake up and set things straight though, personally, I wouldn't hold my breath of that happening. The money involved will prevent the little guy from seeing the right thing being done.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  10. 600,000 reasons by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    Crap like this, no wonder we have angry armed mobs in front of our embassies. This was not only a wrongheaded suit but obnoxious in application. If the publishers want to discriminate regionally, then they should bear the burden of regional versions (less desirable in US, at least for textbooks). Trampling our US first sale rights isn't going to be acceptable. Crucifying some little entrepreneur like that with bogus double dipping "corporate rights", no wonder the US has endless enemies.

  11. This has happened everyday by Guru80 · · Score: 1

    Throughout history from the very first time a product was sold for differing prices a middleman has bought them up in one place and sold them in another where he can make a profit. I will lose what little faith I have left in our legal system if they convict this kid.

    1. Re:This has happened everyday by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already did, with a fine of $600000. This went to the Supreme Court through appeals. The fact that it got that is more than distressing.

    2. Re:This has happened everyday by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 0

      They already did, with a fine of $600000. This went to the Supreme Court through appeals. The fact that it got that is more than distressing.

      $600000 for EIGHT BOOKS.

    3. Re:This has happened everyday by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      EIGHT BOOKS.

      That's one hell of a markup considering he made $1,200,000.

      Specifically he sold dozens of copies of eight textbooks

      Ah, there we go - presumably that's "dozens" in the sense of "thousands." Not that the whole thing isn't utterly ridiculous, of course.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    4. Re:This has happened everyday by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      8 books? So how did he make $1,200,000 in revenue?

      http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/26/justice/court-student-copyright/index.html

    5. Re:This has happened everyday by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      The Supreme Court does not "convict."
      They will either uphold or overturn a lower court's ruling.

      I think I know what you meant to say, but words have meaning.

    6. Re:This has happened everyday by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      EIGHT BOOKS.

      That's one hell of a markup considering he made $1,200,000.

      Specifically he sold dozens of copies of eight textbooks

      Ah, there we go - presumably that's "dozens" in the sense of "thousands." Not that the whole thing isn't utterly ridiculous, of course.

      from TFA: "Specifically he sold dozens of copies of eight textbooks printed in Asia by a subsidiary of John Wiley & Sons publishers. Kirtsaeng's lawyers claim his gross revenue from the Wiley sales was just $37,000." He didn't make those copies. He just imported them. The claimed 1.2million figure is in regard to all the books he sold, most of which apparently were not Wiley titles.

  12. Constitution is NOT a living document by Cutting_Crew · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be "as is". Black and White. It means what it says and trying to conjure up a ruling because times change a little bit doesn't give any court the right or power to use a personal interpretation to make a ruling. Why do I believe this? Well they also gave the power to add, remove, amend the constitution through a very lengthy process. This tells me that changing the constitution in any way was very important and it was not meant to be arbitrarily changed at a whim or misinterpreted by someones prejudice. Think about it - technically any judge on any court can say , "well i interpret this to mean that so I am ruling X". That gives too much power to judges and I think most of us here understand that the founders didn't want this..

    1. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Constituion contains the mechanism for amending it.
      It's not supposed to be done by executive order, a simple majority vote in Congress, or judicial fiat.

    2. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be "as is". Black and White. It means what it says and trying to conjure up a ruling because times change a little bit doesn't give any court the right or power to use a personal interpretation to make a ruling. Why do I believe this? Well they also gave the power to add, remove, amend the constitution through a very lengthy process. This tells me that changing the constitution in any way was very important and it was not meant to be arbitrarily changed at a whim or misinterpreted by someones prejudice. Think about it - technically any judge on any court can say , "well i interpret this to mean that so I am ruling X". That gives too much power to judges and I think most of us here understand that the founders didn't want this..

      You can firmly believe that but you would be wrong. The intentionally made the words vague, ensuring that the courts and your legislators would have to interpret it according to their judgment.

    3. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Cutting_Crew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      NO - if courts and legislators can interpret it to mean anything they want then thats a dangerous precedent. They can justify, change any law, new or old and that was not want the founders wanted. Currently if you want to change the constitution it requires 2/3 vote in both house and senate then 3/4 of the states must accept the bill before actually changing the constitution. What you are implying is that they would be ok with any court or single person in congress having the power of their own persuasion and personal conviction to arbitrarily make a ruling because of his own interpretation. Pretty soon every judge has their own interpretation and as you might imagine this can lead to overwhelming chaos.

    4. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Informative

      What you are implying is that they would be ok with any court or single person in congress having the power of their own persuasion and personal conviction to arbitrarily make a ruling because of his own interpretation. Pretty soon every judge has their own interpretation and as you might imagine this can lead to overwhelming chaos.

      And that's exactly right. I don't see the problem here. I do see your misunderstanding, though.

      The founders saw that no single set of laws could apply actual justice to every case. Mitigating circumstances and changing technologies had caused "overwhelming chaos" even 200 years ago. When they laid out the framework for the American government, they separated interpretation from legislation intentionally, so the courts could decide how (or if) the slowly-changing laws could apply to each case. Ideally, every case would follow a completely independent interpretation of the rules. For efficiency, though, American courts often follow precedent if the judges feel the circumstances haven't significantly changed since the precedent was set.

      Every court can have their own opinion, and they very often do. Each state, county, and municipality can have their own interpretations of the law, which should coincide with the community's collective morality. When there's a significant disagreement, the case can be taken to a higher court for a more authoritative judgement, ultimately even arriving at the Supreme Court Of The United States, whose interpretations can override everything else in the nation.

      Despite today's global culture, it is important to remember that humans only naturally compare their behavior to those physically around them. Local groups develop their own morality, and their local laws and customs reflect that. Why should their courts reflect an arbitrary morality from some other group a thousand miles away? We may as well declare tomorrow that America is under strict Muslim rule, and all courts must refer to the Qu'ran for legal guidance.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    5. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by turbidostato · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be "as is". Black and White"

      What the hell means "a is"? It is obvious that the text is not so clear that it only admits one interpretation, so what do you really mean?

      Oh, I know: "I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be as Cutting_Crew reads it".

    6. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be "as is". Black and White.

      You can believe that. I won't agree myself, but ok, so you believe that's the case.

      But surely you can recognize that the Constitution is not an exhaustive document that covers everything in detail, nor does it provide a comprehensive guidance of principles? Surely you can also recognize that people will still read things into it as they will, people being people as they are, and that what one person believes or says it means may not be another. And I really hope you can see how adopting the position of putting the Constitution on a pedestal, and what you believe the Founding Fathers intended opens up a peril of dogmatic devotion used to excuse all kinds of injustice.

      It means what it says and trying to conjure up a ruling because times change a little bit doesn't give any court the right or power to use a personal interpretation to make a ruling. Why do I believe this? Well they also gave the power to add, remove, amend the constitution through a very lengthy process. This tells me that changing the constitution in any way was very important and it was not meant to be arbitrarily changed at a whim or misinterpreted by someones prejudice. Think about it - technically any judge on any court can say , "well i interpret this to mean that so I am ruling X". That gives too much power to judges and I think most of us here understand that the founders didn't want this..

      Actually, I believe they did exercise just that authority themselves, that's why they rose up in Rebellion and formed their OWN government.

      I'm far more afraid of a judge who follows the law and has no room to exercise discretion or compassion than I am of a judge exercising it. I suppose I could go with the prohibition to making things worse, but I do also want judges to make things more lenient.

      Personally, I think instead of a lengthy process to amend, we should be forcing ourselves to revise and improve the document. It's a 200 year old paper, it's full of flaws, and if we could revise it, I think we can do a little better.

    7. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Constituion contains the mechanism for amending it. It's not supposed to be done by executive order, a simple majority vote in Congress, or judicial fiat.

      This is not a piece of code, it's a law. Unfortunately it needs to be interpreted and it stops working when it is interpreted badly (maybe it is like interpreted code?)

      You know, like 100 bajilion dollars for downloading 10 songs still has to be interpreted as "cruel and unusual" to be unconstitutional.

      Or like current administration arguing that placing you on a "kill list" is fine because it is "due process", just not judicial, reviewed or in any way transparent. But still "due".

      Or judges accepting that your "documents" can't be searched, but when they are sent by email or stored on your phone, suddenly that doesn't count as "papers" because they are electronic. Similarly, you cannot be search unless a police dog barks at you/your car. Once the dog barks, the constitutional limits are lifted for some reason.

      Or successfully arguing that copyright limits are "limited" as long as they are finite (so "unlimited" is unconstitutional, but extend by 20 years every 20 years is fine)

      Or court accepting that administration can wait a few years until the constitutional review of a detention (Jose Padilla) and then transfer that prisoner from military to civil confinement one day before review and claim that the case is now "moot" since the prisoner is no longer in military confinement.

      I could go on.

    8. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Kijori · · Score: 4, Informative

      You have to understand that there is no way for the constitution to be "as is". No-one - including constitutional originalists - thinks that that is possible. The process of interpretation necessarily involves information that does not come from the constitutional document itself, and that is a role of judges - to interpret the statute in order to determine what it means in a limitless array of situations. Far from being a criticism your statement "well I interpret this to mean that so I am ruling X" is in fact the right and proper function of a judge.

      The opposing view to the living document school of thought is not that no information external to the document can be used; that idea is intellectually moribund, as is apparent the moment you attempt the exercise. The opposing view is constitutional originalism, which looks outside the document just as much as do living-document jurists. The difference is where they look: instead of looking at the prevailing circumstances today and what the meaning of the words would be if enacted today they look at the circumstances at the time of enactment and what (in the judge's interpretation, for the judge is interpreting things just as much here) the words would have meant at the time. It is important to bear in mind that this does not normally have anything to do with what the authors of the constitution wanted the constitution to say or meant for it to say. The question is what it would generally have been understood to have meant at the time.

      Personally I tend to lean toward a constitutional originalist view. It must be accepted, however, that there are considerable problems with it. The living document school grew up in large part because a constitution interpreted in line with the values that were held 200 years ago is often irrelevant or useless. Advances in technology mean that checks on privacy interpreted as they were understood in the 18th century can be completely impotent. Similarly a clause guaranteeing due process is of little comfort if all it guarantees is the quality of due process that was accepted in 1790. There is also to my mind a clear contradiction in the commonly held position that in relation to rights the constitution grants nothing that would not have been expected in the eighteenth century, but that the second amendment grants the right to own any weapon whenever devised.

    9. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Means how it was interpreted, upheld, and practiced at the time of the writing, and not a re-imagining centuries later. Look, if you want to change the Constitution the means by which to rewrite it are included in the document itself.

    10. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Cutting_Crew · · Score: 0

      but judges are supposed to rule as the the current constitution states. It is NOT their job to say, "well this part of the constitution doesnt make sense now so lets make a ruling to interpret it that makes sense in this day and age". I repeat that is NOT their job. They are to rule on current law and constitutional basis - not to change or modify that basis based on their own personal interpretation. They are to rule on a law as is. Period. If you want them to rule on a law make a ruling on a constitutional problem then CHANGE THE LAW BY RATIFYING THE CONSTITUTION that reflects the day and age. Surely if 200 years later it is acceptable by most for X and Y because A and B really dont apply to this day and age then it shouldnt be any problem getts 2/3 of the house and senate and 3/4 of the states to sign off on the change. But this is not any judges job - even the supreme courts job, which are supposed to make a ruling on current statutes. Not make up their own interpretations and make rulings on those interpretations.

    11. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It admits very few interpretations, unless you have serious reading comprehension difficulties or an authoritarian agenda to push.

    12. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Cutting_Crew · · Score: 1

      lets talk about what isnt clear to you then? what is so vague that it isnt apparent what the founding fathers meant? I am sure a lot of us can think of privacy being a main issue. Obviously they could not account for technological advances that would dictate an update the constitution to provide citizens the right to privacy, regardless of any technological advances. I agree with that. But judges or the supreme court shouldnt be the ones to interpret the constitution and apply that law to this current day and age to make a ruling about some privacy issue. As someone said below, we should be exercising our power as citizens of the United States to bug the hell out of our representatives in Congress so that 2/3 of the house and senate will vote to amend the constitution and that after that 3/4 of the states approve it in a bill before going into law. If your congressman or local state representative gets in the way of that or doesnt agree with the people on this then vote them out of office and put someone in who shares and will act upon the views of his or her constituency. Thats how it is supposed to work.

    13. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has never been the case.

      The American judicial system is based on the British system. And the British system involves common law, also used in the US, a set of rules developed exclusively by the judiciary, with no input from legislators.

      Further, the entire job of a judge is to develop their own interpretations of the law. The law is ambiguous. Even the Constitution. In many cases, it is unclear exactly how the verbiage of a particular phrase does or does not apply to a particular situation. It is the job of lawyers to argue for the interpretations that favor their clients (whether their clients are individuals, organizations, or the state), and the job of a judge to arbitrate between their interpretations. There is no such thing as a law "as it is" or "uninterpreted."

    14. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      It is important to bear in mind that this does not normally have anything to do with what the authors of the constitution wanted the constitution to say or meant for it to say. The question is what it would generally have been understood to have meant at the time.

      It depends on whom you ask. Some scholars try to draw distinctions between "originalism" and "textualism." While these terms aren't consistently used in the literature (as far as I can tell), the common distinction made is that "textualism" is about the original text (i.e., what the plain meaning of the words is, particularly around the time of the drafting of the law), while "originalism" is centered on the original legislative intent of the statute. Some approaches may emphasize the meaning of the text divorced from the authors of the Constitution, while other approaches may emphasize the intent of the authors beyond the simple meaning of the text.

      There are lots of different approaches to "original meaning" interpretation, so it's not fair to say that judges who seek that original meaning privilege one bit of historical data over another -- different judges (and even different justices on the Supreme Court) have different methods. For example, Scalia is on record as being a textualist who also considers subsequent legislative and judicial history of a statute -- he's interested in the plain meaning of the text at the time of its passing, but in many cases he is also willing to consider how the meaning has been interpreted over time. Thomas is more strict in always privileging the original meaning.

      Personally I tend to lean toward a constitutional originalist view.

      There is certainly an appeal to such a perspective. I once remember Scalia talking about the problem with the "living Constitution" -- he said it's like being a judge and waking up everyday, looking at the ceiling and saying, "I wonder whether the 14th amendment contains a right to privacy and a right to abortion today? It didn't yesterday, but maybe it does today."

      That statement makes the problems with the "Living Constitution" clear, because that same judge can wake up one morning and decide there is no longer a right to privacy or abortion or whatever. If it's not clearly in the text, rights can be granted or withdrawn on the whims or judicial fads of the time, and that's disturbing.

      While I am in favor of a number of unenumerated rights and liberal reforms that have come over the centuries, I would prefer that the important ones were actually enshrined explicitly in Constitutional amendments or explicit statutes, rather than "interpreted" to magically appear somewhere in the Constitution one day. Because if they are magically "interpreted" to appear one day, they could be magically interpreted out at some point in the future....

    15. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Actually, it's the "authoritarian agenda" that wants the Constitution to be treated like the Bible -- that is, as the revealed word of God, which admits of no interpretation but must be slavishly followed in the most literal way possible. Daddy is never wrong, and Daddy has foreseen all things in advance, so you shouldn't need to do any thinking for yourself.

      Like Biblical literalism (which is fundamentally blasphemous -- it's the rough equivalent of giving a big middle-finger to Jesus and his ideals), the strict-interpretation zealots are utterly betraying the wishes of our Founding Fathers. They were both pragmatic and idealistic, willing to question anything and more than aware that the ground is always shifting under everyone's feet. They had nothing in common with those dull-witted, crushingly pedantic souls who would say things like "the Constitution admits very few interpretations".

      The Constitution may be a work of genius, but like every law that has ever been written or will ever be, it absolutely requires exegesis. If a law doesn't require interpretation, it's almost certain to be either unjust by design, or so micromanagerial that it imposes tyranny simply by dint of its complexity.

    16. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by macs4all · · Score: 1

      We may as well declare tomorrow that America is under strict Muslim rule, and all courts must refer to the Qu'ran for legal guidance.

      Congratulations for invoking the "Muslim Equivalent" to the Godwin Rule.

      IMHO, "interpretation" has far passed over (pun intended) into "Modification". And this is especially a danger when it comes to SCOTUS doing the "interpreting"; because the results of their interpretation are not "local" (as far as the U.S. goes, at least).

    17. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Considering how much yelling gets done about what constitutes a "well-regulated Militia" by the time you get to the Amendments, I'd say that the "very few interpretations" thing didn't last very long.

    18. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ninth amendment invites us to "interpret" rights not written in the constitution.

    19. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by khallow · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually, it's the "authoritarian agenda" that wants the Constitution to be treated like the Bible -- that is, as the revealed word of God, which admits of no interpretation but must be slavishly followed in the most literal way possible. Daddy is never wrong, and Daddy has foreseen all things in advance, so you shouldn't need to do any thinking for yourself.

      So how does that work? The "authoritarian agenda" as you put it is naturally constrained by what is actually in the US Constitution (which is mostly a delineation of powers and other restrictions on government). That means the authority such as it is rests in the US Constitution (which incidentally makes the above agenda something other than "authoritarian").

      But with an interpretation that isn't rigorous, the interpreter has the authority. We can see what happens in that case when, for example, the US Supreme Court elects a US president or makes law. Or in an extreme case, true authoritarian regimes where the law means whatever those in power say it means.

      And what happens when our interpretations differ, say because we chose the interpretations that were most convenient to our interests at the time? Then it becomes a game of getting judges to agree with you.

      A key difference between the Bible and the US Constitution is that the former consists of a bunch of fixed but differing works. There is no true means for revising the Bible. Don't like the genocide of the Great Flood? You can't just excise it from all those bibles out there.You can print your own version without that story, but you can't change what has already been published or which version people chose to read. Or you can choose to interpret the story in a way that is more compatible with your sensibilities, but again you can't change how other people chose to interpret the Bible.

      The US Constitution on the other hand comes with ways to modify the document, including a radical overhaul of the whole thing (the "Constitutional Convention"). There is need for exegesis, but not a need for reinterpreting the Constitution to suit your whim.

    20. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Nyder · · Score: 1

      "I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be "as is". Black and White"

      What the hell means "a is"? It is obvious that the text is not so clear that it only admits one interpretation, so what do you really mean?

      Oh, I know: "I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be as Cutting_Crew reads it".

      Cutting Crew? "I just died in your arms tonight?" Cutting Crew? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_Crew

      They did a reading of the Constitution? Is it out in audio book form? or do they sing it, put in on Youtube and it got a DMCA notice?

      --
      Be seeing you...
    21. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by pepty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So what is the "black and white" constitutional definition of an "arm", as used in the 2nd amendment? Why should we believe your particular definition is that which the authors intended?

    22. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The second amendment states:

      "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

      Does this mean that people can keep any kind of gun for any purpose they like, or can they only do so as part of a well-regulated militia? Does the term "well-regulated" mean that the constitution also allows the federal government to put limits on the right to bear arms?

      Regardless of what you think the answers to these questions are, I think it's fair to say that reasonable people could disagree on the exact meaning of parts of the constitution. Also I believe that much of the document was meant to be vague, it needed to be in order for the parties negotiating it to come to an agreement.

    23. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      NO - if courts and legislators can interpret it to mean anything they want then thats a dangerous precedent.

      Language *must* be interpreted. Even if not a conscious thought, you take other's words in and decide what you want to take them as. You can't have code without interpretation.

      Pretty soon every judge has their own interpretation and as you might imagine this can lead to overwhelming chaos.

      Yes, that's why "common law" solved that with the higher court rulings applying to lower courts, and lower courts non-bindingly applying to peer courts.

    24. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Lord_Breetai · · Score: 1

      Cutting Crew? "I just died in your arms tonight?" Cutting Crew? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_Crew

      No. He meant http://slashdot.org/~Cutting_Crew

      --
      "You are only young once, but you can be immature forever." -www.animemusicvideos.org
    25. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      The constitution is like the bible, those who profess to know what it means usually haven't read it.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    26. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Kijori · · Score: 1

      Originalism as you define it is pretty much defunct. It's one of what have been memorably referred to as judicial fairy-tales and has now been recognised as being intellectually indefensible. Anyone professing that view is well outside the judicial mainstream.

      I think your comments in your final paragraphs are pretty much on the money. Scalia gave a lecture at Edinburgh university which I think might be the one you're referring to - it's at http://law-srv0.law.ed.ac.uk/media/46_justicescaliatercentenarylecture.mp3 if not.

    27. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moderated, so posting anon.

      I would not say the "I wonder if the document contains a every day" is a valid approach to the issue.
      I think it is ( should be? ) more "hey, doctors learned how to abort fetuses today, what legal impact does that have, is that murder, assault? How do I proceed WRT law in the face of this?"
      Or "hey, they just invented email, would emails be covered as "papers and effects" WRT privacy"?

    28. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      Also I believe that much of the document was meant to be vague, it needed to be in order for the parties negotiating it to come to an agreement.

      Bingo, it's a set of principles to govern a nation, not a rule book for life. If you look at the bible the old testament attempted to be a rule book for life but it was all too confusing and people started fighting about what kind of animal to have for breakfast on Friday's. The new testament was a bit more abstract, although you were still technically required to follow the rules in the first draft there were enough contradictions in the document to have God on everyone's side.
      Here's the thing, people who don't understand the utility of principles, and are unwilling to pay the cost of keeping a few as pets will always be attracted to a laundry list of rules that they can follow.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    29. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So how does that work? The "authoritarian agenda" as you put it is naturally constrained by what is actually in the US Constitution (which is mostly a delineation of powers and other restrictions on government). That means the authority such as it is rests in the US Constitution (which incidentally makes the above agenda something other than "authoritarian").
       

      Only if they read the Constitution in such a fashion as to prevent their authoritarian agenda.

      Here's a hint: They won't.

      They'll read it as they like.

      But with an interpretation that isn't rigorous, the interpreter has the authority. We can see what happens in that case when, for example, the US Supreme Court elects a US president or makes law. Or in an extreme case, true authoritarian regimes where the law means whatever those in power say it means.
       

      Actually, that's the thing, it's not rigorous, it tends to be a shallow interpretation to get what they want. The Constitution is no more immune to that than anything else.

      This is why they WANT to treat the Constitution as Holy Writ. Because it gives them an inarguable position instead of resting on their own authority, it's somebody who can't be challenged, who is wiser and knows better.

      That can't be argued with.

      And what happens when our interpretations differ, say because we chose the interpretations that were most convenient to our interests at the time? Then it becomes a game of getting judges to agree with you.

      That's already the game. I think it'd be better to have one where it's not treated as anything but what one person, or what some group of people believe, who are as human as the rest of us, rather than externalizing it, since said things tend to lead to putting things on a pedestal.

      A key difference between the Bible and the US Constitution is that the former consists of a bunch of fixed but differing works. There is no true means for revising the Bible. Don't like the genocide of the Great Flood? You can't just excise it from all those bibles out there.You can print your own version without that story, but you can't change what has already been published or which version people chose to read. Or you can choose to interpret the story in a way that is more compatible with your sensibilities, but again you can't change how other people chose to interpret the Bible.
       

      You can't change how other people choose to interpret the Constitution either. There's plenty of evidence of that, and how it has lead to injustice.

      And that's without any doubt as to the provenance of it.

      Have you begun to see the problem yet?

      The US Constitution on the other hand comes with ways to modify the document, including a radical overhaul of the whole thing (the "Constitutional Convention"). There is need for exegesis, but not a need for reinterpreting the Constitution to suit your whim.

      Try suggesting to some of the Constitutional devotionalists that it should be changed. Especially to your radical overhaul. They will be flabbergasted.

      Because they've already decided it is locked and firm, and cannot be revised.

      There's a need for a different way.

    30. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Originalism as you define it is pretty much defunct. It's one of what have been memorably referred to as judicial fairy-tales and has now been recognised as being intellectually indefensible. Anyone professing that view is well outside the judicial mainstream.

      Really? I don't think so. For example, take a look at all of the discussion around the big Second Amendment cases in the past couple years. Some lawyers, justices, etc. only cared about what the plain meaning of the Second Amendment would be to people in the 1790s, while others looked in detail at the legislative history, discussions of the Founders on the issue, changes in the drafts, etc. It seems pretty clear that those who were interested in the latter things were considering the intent of the law, rather than just the text in isolation. And that's how I defined "originalism" in my post.

      Hardly seems like a "judicial fairy-tale" to me.

    31. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      The ninth amendment invites us to "interpret" rights not written in the constitution.

      I never said it didn't. My concern is that unenumerated rights may be "interpreted" out of our judicial system as well. There's a reason why the Bill of Rights actually listed a number of rights -- they were thought to be so important that they should be listed separately.

      So, if we actually value a "right to privacy" enough, I think it would be better to pass an Amendment that actually does enumerate it, lest some Supreme Court come along in 20 years and decide it doesn't exist anymore... and that previous "interpretations" were in error.

    32. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      I would not say the "I wonder if the document contains a every day" is a valid approach to the issue.

      I think it is ( should be? ) more "hey, doctors learned how to abort fetuses today, what legal impact does that have, is that murder, assault? How do I proceed WRT law in the face of this?"

      Abortions have been possible for hundreds of years. Most of anti-abortion laws were actually passed in the late 1800s and early 1900s, after the Fourteenth Amendment (and other amendments supposedly containing a "right to privacy") had already been in existence.

      Some of those laws were challenged. Nobody, and I mean nobody before the mid-1900s thought there was some sort of Constitutional right to abortion.

      Then, one day, justices woke up and decided that parts of the Constitution contained that right, where no one saw it there before. Suddenly, dozens of laws were invalid.

      It's not like doctors learned to abort fetuses in the 1960s -- people knew how to do it for centuries. It did become much safer in the 20th century, but the practice itself was not new.

      Take some time and actually read the opinion Roe v. Wade. There's a great summary of history written into the opinion going from ancient Roman times through medieval Catholicism and up to the present day in terms of the status of the fetus and abortion.

      Or "hey, they just invented email, would emails be covered as "papers and effects" WRT privacy"?

      This might be a better example for your argument, since email didn't exist during the drafting of the Constitution. I don't take as much of an issue with this kind of interpretation, since it was obviously not a settled question in the 1700s as email didn't exist then. The ability to pass laws outlawing abortion, on the other hand, was basically settled law until some justices found rights in the Constitution that no one saw there before.

      Look, I want to be clear -- I personally think that abortion should be legal. But I don't think there's anything in the Constitution that explicitly implies that, and I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that any legislator at the time of the amendments thought there was any problem with anti-abortion laws.

      If we actually passed a Constitutional amendment dealing with rights to privacy and related rights, maybe people wouldn't be so worried today about a Republican president appointing enough justices to overturn Roe v. Wade.

      I don't know if abortion is a "fundamental right," but if it's really that important that we don't want future courts tinkering with it, it would have been better not to make up new "interpretations" of existing law that already had clear interpretations.

    33. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Woldscum · · Score: 2

      "Well Regulated" as in well trained or well disciplined. Like a regulated clock. The wrong definition is quite often used to justify firearm laws.

    34. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by sjames · · Score: 1

      And that's exactly right. I don't see the problem here. I do see your misunderstanding, though.

      If you're willing to contort logic enough, you can make any words 'mean' nearly anything, and nobody likes sophistry as much as lawyers and politicians.

      For example, what if they decide that freedom of speech didn't say where, so it's only allowed during your morning shower. When in gatherings of 2 or more, you may only toe the line. You can print any old thing you want (because you have freedom of the press) but you cannot distribute it without a license and the approval of your local DHS office. By arms, they meant small rocks that you can throw, nothing more. Soldiers can't be quartered in your home but they can knock it down and pitch a tent if they like. You have the freedom to assemble the toys you bought at Wallmart if you can read chinenglish.

      Your concerns are addressed by limiting the legal scope of the Constitution. It is not meant to be a comprehensive body of law. Rather, it is meant as a specific authorization for government to make laws within the broad limits it sets with a few things called out that are meant to be absolute prohibitions against laws.

    35. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by sjames · · Score: 1

      The meaning is clear. The confusion only comes up when looking for a loophole. The language has changed a bit in 2 1/2 centuries, but not so much that we can't understand it if we want to.

    36. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by khallow · · Score: 1

      Only if they read the Constitution in such a fashion as to prevent their authoritarian agenda.

      And you just can't help but do that. Look at the Bill of Rights. The first amendment alone blows a huge hole in any authoritarian agenda because you can't hush up opposition nor prevent protests. And that's ignoring all those other rights and such given to people. Then take into account that the structure of the US government as set up by the Constitution is naturally designed with built-in conflicts between the various branches of government and between the states and federal government.

      I really don't see where you're going with this because there's no room in a literal interpretation of the Constitution for an authoritarian power.

      You can't change how other people choose to interpret the Constitution either. There's plenty of evidence of that, and how it has lead to injustice.

      Sure, you can. The legal and political risks associated with the, shall we say, more generous interpretations of the Constitution keep a lot of abuses from happening. Sometimes the right and just answer to an interpretation is "Fuck you."

      Try suggesting to some of the Constitutional devotionalists that it should be changed. Especially to your radical overhaul. They will be flabbergasted.

      Because they've already decided it is locked and firm, and cannot be revised.

      Perhaps, but I think it more likely that they simply don't see anything wrong with the US Constitution as it works now.

      There's a need for a different way.

      Why? What's so wrong with the Constitution now?

    37. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by khallow · · Score: 1

      The big difference is that the US Constitution is vastly shorter (well, that and it's not a collection of entertaining stories and allegories). At four pages including amendments, it's something most people can read, though admittedly, I haven't done it in a while.

    38. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And you just can't help but do that. Look at the Bill of Rights.

      Maybe you're confident in that.

      I'm not.

      I've found people quite willing to take things as THEY want them, and get what they want out of anything. People are remarkably good at self-justifying, and I don't care to give them the ability to cloak their selfishness in an external authority.

      The first amendment alone blows a huge hole in any authoritarian agenda because you can't hush up opposition nor prevent protests.

      Read some of their replies in regards perceived anti-Christian statements. Usually right after they get done screaming about how the First amendment protects their right to demand prayers or some such.

      It's easier than you think to resolve that inconsistency.

      Sure, a rigorous philosopher wouldn't do that, but wait, wait, do you think that's the case?? No, it won't be. It'll be a shallow reading to get what they want, even while proclaiming itself the TRUE and FAITHFUL way that is truly honest and genuine.

      And that's ignoring all those other rights and such given to people.

      And here we have a flaw in your reasoning. Real rights aren't given to people, they're already possessed. The Constitution's representation of such is not at all explicit enough on that subject.

      Then take into account that the structure of the US government as set up by the Constitution is naturally designed with built-in conflicts between the various branches of government and between the states and federal government.

      State governments spent enough decades exploiting that and creating injustices to void that argument.

      I really don't see where you're going with this because there's no room in a literal interpretation of the Constitution for an authoritarian power.

      That's YOUR version of it. As I said:

      Here's a hint: They won't.

      They'll read it as they like.

      People who want an authoritarian agenda LOVE the appeal to the Constitution, of fixed interpretation, because then they can abrogate all responsibility for what they want and put it on somebody else.

      Even while they're exploiting it to get what they want. Or I should say ESPECIALLY.

      You really don't seem to recognize this.

      Sure, you can. The legal and political risks associated with the, shall we say, more generous interpretations of the Constitution keep a lot of abuses from happening. Sometimes the right and just answer to an interpretation is "Fuck you."

      But that's my point. That's not changing THEIR interpretation. That's rejecting it. You can certainly do that. But can you change them? No.

      And I'm much more comfortable when I'm able to reject them as individuals, and not have to deal with them tugging at another's skirts.

      Perhaps, but I think it more likely that they simply don't see anything wrong with the US Constitution as it works now.

      Exactly my point when I said "Because they've already decided it is locked and firm, and cannot be revised." which I guess was unclear to you?

      Though they really do disagree with some of the things done in the name of the Constitution and demand we go back to the TRUE way.

      Their idea of it.

      Which is often quite wrong. Not mistaken, but wrong. There is a difference here, and it's very important.

      Why? What's so wrong with the Constitution now?

      I could just offer two words, and that'd be enough for some. Electoral College.

      But I have other problems with it, including its expression of rights (I don't find the formulation satisfactory at all, let alone the contents) and the structure of elections. Winner-takes-all is very unrepresentative. I'd give more but I don't feel like taking the time to write it out here, since you can find plenty of ideas if you want to look.

    39. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bingo. The US courts have been so occupied with distorting the law to allow for these and other horrors that they can't think clearly. If the copyright law does not apply to foreign produced works then how can the foreign producer bring the case into the US court in the first place? Why should first sale doctrine not apply yet any other standard apply? The US courts are so corrupted that dedication to preserving a social order has completely trumped the need for even the most basic order and sanity in the process of applying the law itself.

    40. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Follis · · Score: 1

      The contradiction in your mind is resolved readily if you recall that that consitution doesn't "grant" any rights to the people at all, as the people are innate posessors of all rights. The constitution is structured to place limits on the government, not the people. In fact, a major argument at the time against the "Bill of Rights" was that people would intepret it as an exhaustive list.

    41. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Follis · · Score: 1

      And now I realize I clearly misunderstood whay you were saying. Mea culpa. If only I had used the preview button in a more intelligent manner.

    42. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      "Means how it was interpreted, upheld, and practiced at the time of the writing"

      Because:
      a) You perfectly know how it was interpreted, upheld, and practiced at the time of the writing and, more importantly how it would have been interpreted, upheld, and practiced if they themselves were asked to interpret and uphold it in the face of the cases that have appeared in the last two centuries.
      b) and there was an unanimous interpretation of what it was meant to say, even in the time when it was written down.

    43. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      The meaning is clear. The confusion only comes up when looking for a loophole. The language has changed a bit in 2 1/2 centuries, but not so much that we can't understand it if we want to.

      Which "we" are you?

      The "we" that believes that it empowers States to form National Guard units?

      Or the "we" that believes that a "well-regulated militia" is anyone who can get together with a couple of buddies, don camo gear and run around the woods?

      Or perhaps the "we" that considers one person with a den full of automatic weapons to suffice?

      Each of these positions has its adherents, they generally consider theirs to be the One True Interpretation, because "it's so simple a blind man can see it". A phrase that always makes me want to punch somebody. Or, considering the topic, shoot them.

    44. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by turbidostato · · Score: 1, Interesting

      ""Well Regulated" as in well trained or well disciplined."

      That's your opinion on the meaning.

      "Well Regulated" as in with proper regulations as to fulfill its goal, I'd say. Why your interpretation should be better considered than mine? (and don't even start on what "its goal" is, because it opens another can of worms, i.e., since an obvious goal is "the security of a free State", a well regulated militia needs to be able to stand against anything not being the State that might risk its security, i.e. the Federal Government, and since the Federal Government owns nukes, so the "well regulated militia" and thus any given well regulated group of free citizens has the undeniable right to own nukes to stand against this potential enemy).

    45. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      I firmly believe that the founding fathers intended for the constitution to be "as is". Black and White. It means what it says and trying to conjure up a ruling because times change a little bit doesn't give any court the right or power to use a personal interpretation to make a ruling. Why do I believe this? Well they also gave the power to add, remove, amend the constitution through a very lengthy process. This tells me that changing the constitution in any way was very important and it was not meant to be arbitrarily changed at a whim or misinterpreted by someones prejudice. Think about it - technically any judge on any court can say , "well i interpret this to mean that so I am ruling X". That gives too much power to judges and I think most of us here understand that the founders didn't want this..

      First, of course judges are meant to have that power, otherwise the three branches of the government would not be co-equal checks and balances.

      Second, of course the Founding Fathers intended that, because they didn't immediately amend the Constitution to remove that power after Marbury v. Madison... a case that was an argument between Jefferson and John Adams, presided over by John Marshall. Y'know... the Founding Fathers. It's not like they wrote the Constitution and then immediately disappeared, never to be heard from again.

      Third, look at the document. It's 19 pages. That's it. You know what's even longer? The original act regulating procedures in the federal court, passed in 1789, at 20 pages. Clearly, the Constitution is not meant to be comprehensive and exhaustive. It's supposed to be rough guidelines, to be interpreted as necessary, and anyone who thinks it's supposed to be strictly interpreted must also assume that the Founders were unimaginative idiots who wrote 19 pages and said, "okay, done, that covers everything." It also requires them to explicitly disregard the 9th and 10th amendments.

    46. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      While I am in favor of a number of unenumerated rights and liberal reforms that have come over the centuries, I would prefer that the important ones were actually enshrined explicitly in Constitutional amendments or explicit statutes, rather than "interpreted" to magically appear somewhere in the Constitution one day.

      So, you want to specifically disregard the 9th amendment?

    47. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the Constitution didn't establish any such thing as a "federal common law". Nowhere does it incorporate any of the the British legal precedents.
      That kind of thing is only supposed to exist at the state level.

    48. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by sjames · · Score: 1

      The well regulated militia clause is simply an explanation of WHY we have the right to keep and bear arms. The confusion arises from those who want to bend over backwards to claim that individuals should be restricted in their right to keep and bear arms. As I said, lawyers and politicians love sophistry.

      In the modern world, it DOES make sense that we would prefer that to not include atomic weapons, so it may be time to use the amendment process to clarify that.

    49. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by khallow · · Score: 1
      The thing is I still don't buy it. The strategy of literal interpretation of the Constitution is inherently self-defeating for an authoritarian goal. Because the double standard doesn't work. In your example, anti-Christian statements were just as protected as pro-Christian statements. It's not possible to have both a broad protection of freedom and the ability to block speech that you just don't like.

      But when one is allowed considerable flexibility in interpreting the Constitution, then you can easily find an authoritarian rationalization that is consistent. Perhaps those anti-Christian statements are incitement to bad behavior of some kind. Or maybe there's an implied right to not be offended.

      You need a mechanism for how a strict interpretation of the US Constitution would impose some sort of tyranny. You don't have that, just some vague talk.

      This is one of the strengths of infrastructure like a good constitution. Because so many parties benefit from it, there's a lot of support for it.

      But I have other problems with it, including its expression of rights (I don't find the formulation satisfactory at all, let alone the contents) and the structure of elections. Winner-takes-all is very unrepresentative. I'd give more but I don't feel like taking the time to write it out here, since you can find plenty of ideas if you want to look.

      I've seen a lot along these lines. The election suggestion is sensible, though not palatable to the current oligopoly of political parties. As to rights, I've seen good and bad suggestions. I find a lot of the flexible constitution types want to create rights to various entitlements like access to health care, education, social security, welfare, etc. That really hasn't worked in other constitutions where it's been tried, but failure never stopped that sort of person before.

    50. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by heefeneet · · Score: 1

      Congratulations for invoking the "Muslim Equivalent" to the Godwin Rule

      The Allahwin Rule?

    51. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by masterjames · · Score: 1

      does anybody else feel like we are living something like the movie v for vendetta. how far can we go til we have had enough. unfortunately the leaders of our respective countries are not changing things rapidly enough. that would break the system because people would be forced to rise up and take over but with this little by little crap we will lose everything that makes life nice. i know that this first sale crap isnt going to affect our daily lives for the most part but where do we draw the line? how far gone does it need to be? I want to see some change around here. this is too much. what is it about people that we feel that we must put laws over people so that they obey? what makes humans that way? its time to get sociological.

    52. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, the interpretation of the law is extremely reasonable, in that the law states clearly that the work had to be "made under" the copyright laws of the US. These laws apply on in the US and so when a work is made overseas, it simply is not made under the copyright laws of the US. Secondly, Congress can simply change to law to read more clearly if it didn't intend it to be limited to only those "made under" the copyright laws of the US and can say expressly or made outside the US. Lastly, the underlying policy of not allowing the defense of the first sale doctrine is reasonable, since foreign markets are distinguishable and for several reasons have independent pricing rational which make it appropriate for products made in foreign countries to be priced differently. To allow these products to then be imported into the US and disrupt the pricing in the US would be inappropriate and unfair to companies that have established the price of the goods in the US. While a free and fair market place is desirable, the copyright laws provide protections for the owners of the copyright to control the markets for their products. Secondary grey markets are not beneficial to the free market.

    53. Re:Constitution is NOT a living document by Kijori · · Score: 1

      Sorry for taking so long to reply.

      Can you point me to the examples you have in mind? Without knowing what you're thinking of it's difficult to reply specifically, and I'm not managing to find examples of courts or published commentary taking the view that the originalist position is a useful one. The one reference I found was in the judgment in District of Columbia v Heller and referred to such points as being of "dubious interpretive worth".

      As a general point of law it is very well established that the actual intention of the parties to a contract, or of the drafters of legislation, is irrelevant; the word "intention" is still used (rather misleadingly I think) but it refers to the intention of the parties or drafters as it can be deduced from the document.

      I would not, to be perfectly honest, be surprised to see the originalist argument being trotted out to defend second amendment gun rights. It is often the case that logical consistency is an early casualty when passions and political pressures are high. I don't think that changes the fact that it is not a position that withstands intellectual scrutiny and that is widely recognised.

  13. textbooks are about profit and changing them very by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    textbooks are about profit and changing them very fast

  14. They want to have their cake and eat it too by Pluvius · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You can't declare that ownership laws in another country apply to you when they protect you (e.g. copyright law) and at the same time declare that they don't apply to you when they protect someone else. This would be a slam-dunk case if not for certain Supreme Court Justices who can't help but give big slobbery kisses to any corporation that gives them the time of day.

    Rob

    1. Re:They want to have their cake and eat it too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be a slam-dunk case if not for certain Supreme Court Justices who can't help but give big slobbery kisses to any corporation that gives them the time of day.

      I do wonder why are they doing this?
      They cannot be removed or replaced or re-elected, so there are no lobbyists here. Are some justices just being bribed directly?

    2. Re:They want to have their cake and eat it too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My rule is to assume that people honestly believe in the decisions they make, whether I agree with them or not.
      People are wrong about lots of things all the time.
      Just because Souter, Mussolini, Roberts, Castro, Bush, Clinton, Chavez, Obama, or Scalia makes a ruling I disagree with doesn't mean he's corrupt.

    3. Re:They want to have their cake and eat it too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't be removed, replaced or re-elected. But they can be bought.

    4. Re:They want to have their cake and eat it too by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      This would be a slam-dunk case if not for certain Supreme Court Justices who can't help but give big slobbery kisses to any corporation that gives them the time of day.

      I do wonder why are they doing this?

      They cannot be removed or replaced or re-elected, so there are no lobbyists here. Are some justices just being bribed directly?

      They can be removed. They're not elected, but the President can appoint a replacement, subject to Congressional approval.

      Removal was made to be an excruciatingly difficult process with the idea that judges would thereby be immune to threats from politics and politicians. Although one of the Constitutional Amendments up for vote in Florida is intended to eliminate that protection at the state level.

      This doesn't, of course, remove the political leanings of the judges themselves. The judges were traditionally expected to put those aside when considering cases.

      One of the more popular ways of bribing legislators is to offer them post-term consulting or lobbying positions. However, in the case of the Supreme Court, that's not been an issue since the Justices tend to hold office until they're too old to gain much benefit.

  15. What about foreign language publications? by BobK65 · · Score: 1

    First sale doctrine should certainly apply. What if someone writes a book in swedish produced and sold only in Sweden. To say a purchaser can't sell the book after moving to the US defies common sense.

  16. College costs aren't high enough I guess. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I went to grad school for EE, I think about 3/4 of my textbooks had a "can only purchse in India, Bangladesh, Singapore, etc" note on them. They were often paperback, with poor paper and ink quality, but thery had all the information that the $300 book at the campus bookstore had, for around $20. I look at this kind of like the presceiption drug thing, we design or write) the product here in the US, and make the US market pay for nearly all the r&d costs, as well as all the marketing and profiteering costs

    1. Re:College costs aren't high enough I guess. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no "R&D" in textbook writing. One or two professors are hired by a publishing firm to write a textbook. The publishers do all the fancy layouts and proofing. There is no original research in these books; they cover known facts in a given subject. In some cases, the subjects have been more-or-less set in stone for decades or even longer. They recoup their costs thousands of times over.

  17. ban professors from ripping pages out of books to by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    ban professors from ripping pages out of books to get a grade or forcing you to buy the book + online tests. make that you only can pay a small fee to cover the costs of on line testing / homework system with a price cap.

    also force professors to let you use old editions as most of them are the same other then moving stuff around and different questions. And some classes don't even need the books at all.

  18. Note that the question before the Court... by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

    ...is not "Should the first sale doctrine apply to imported books". It is "Does the first sale doctrine apply to imported books". I think that we can all agree that it should, but the Court will have to try to figure out whether or not the Congress intended that it should. To do this they will (among other things) inquire into the legislative history of the copyright statute.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also not "is there an inherent property right to sell one's property, without interference from other people". It's sad and depressing that our freedoms have fallen so low that we have to beg the government kindly to permit us to sell our property.

    2. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      It's sad and depressing that our freedoms have fallen so low that we have to beg the government kindly to permit us to sell our property.

      Our "property" slowly mutates into "temporary leased and highly restricted item".
      Have you tried to sell a DVD in a different country? (region encoding)
      How about reselling a software license?
      A used game? (special one-time use codes)

    3. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your property is a result of social intervention (currently in the form of a government) in the first place. You have stuff because people are willing to concede it for general peace, hoping you will concede theirs and are often willing to help you defend it in some fashion. Something idiotic hoarders just don't get, if the social contract breaks down and becomes a hindrance to most people, it will be renegotiated, because there's nothing inherit in "your" property to make it yours. If you like the idea, make sure it benefits most people, like all good social contracts.

    4. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I would contend that the first sale doctrine is not limited to Congress's intentions, since it existed in precedents before it was codified with statutes.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    5. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      Statute law trumps common law.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    6. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      It's sad and depressing that our freedoms have fallen so low that we have to beg the government kindly to permit us to sell our property.

      Our "property" slowly mutates into "temporary leased and highly restricted item".
      Have you tried to sell a DVD in a different country? (region encoding)
        How about reselling a software license?
        A used game? (special one-time use codes)

      No, what's sad and depressing is that we have to strip naked (if only in the virtual sense) to travel by air within our own country.

      The reason that ebooks, DVDs and media recordings are subject to such restrictions is because we went ahead and "bought" them with the restrictions attached at the time of sale.

    7. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purpose of statues is to redirect common law. They have priority, unless they conflict with a higher law. (a constitutional ammendment is the highest law in this context)

    8. Re:Note that the question before the Court... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      In order for trumping to occur, there has to be a conflict. Congress has codified a number of exceptions, but that doesn't mean that these are the only exceptions, or that their scope is limited to what is described in those statutes.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  19. Copyright is not a license to gouge. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    I love this quote:

    The whole idea of the copyright laws is to provide people with an incentive to create books, movies, or other works of art. If you take away that incentive, you're not going to have creators out there doing things that give us pleasure or educate us.

    There is always an issue with absolutes like "take away". There is still incentive but perhaps less. Maybe there will be less incentive to make new editions that consist of a few page changes and different examples.

    It would seem that the publisher is quite happy with the cut they get from foreign distribution at lower prices and seem to be making a profit or they would not be doing it. The re-sale restriction just gives local monopolies to licensed publishers so they can demand the maximum possible price. It has nothing to do with supplying lower cost books where needed but maximizing profit where possible. Profit is not bad but gouging on required text books is.

    1. Re:Copyright is not a license to gouge. by green1 · · Score: 2

      I always hate that part. some of the biggest names in history produced all their work without any form of copyright. Why do people think that if we gave "only" a measly lifetime of protection people would suddenly stop creating?

      It's time to abolish copyright completely. We did fine without it before, we'll do fine without it again.

    2. Re:Copyright is not a license to gouge. by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      I always hate that part. some of the biggest names in history produced all their work without any form of copyright. Why do people think that if we gave "only" a measly lifetime of protection people would suddenly stop creating?

      It's time to abolish copyright completely. We did fine without it before, we'll do fine without it again.

      It's hard to find an archduke to sponsor a composer these days. Maybe after the next wave of Republican reforms...

      Seriously, as a sometime-creator, I could argue that creator who could produce a single work of value and then sponge off it for the rest of his/her life doesn't have much financial incentive to create other works of value, but fortunately, most really good creators aren't primarily motivated by money. And the idea that the copyright extends until the point where the descendents have mutated into something no longer human is a bit much. They didn't create anything. Selling the copyright and having it live forever in the hands of strangers is even more offensive.

      I'd be OK if copyrights ran to about 20 years. But what Sonny Bono did just wasn't right.

      Of course, the primary topic of conversation had to do with imports. As it stands, it's fine to import cheap labor, but not to import cheap products, it seems. Unless you're Wal-Mart.

    3. Re:Copyright is not a license to gouge. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Copyright is not a black and white issue. There is a need for copyright to protect intellectual property just like there is a need for patent protection. The issue comes in when the rules surrounding copyright and patents become ludicrous.

      some of the biggest names in history produced all their work without any form of copyright

      There are very few "patrons of the arts" these days. Today writers and publishers have to sell their books to make a living. No copyright laws, fewer writers, fewer publishers, fewer books.

      It's time to abolish copyright completely. We did fine without it before, we'll do fine without it again.

      Times are very different. Books used to have to be printed on expensive presses that were owned by a few people. Now anyone with an all-in-one printer has the tools to put a copy of a book on the web. Add a little OCR software and it is up on Kindle too. Do you really believe that the writer and publisher of a book should only get revenue from the few people who insist on buying from a book store. They won't even get that as someone will download the book, get a few copies printed, and sell them.

  20. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by James+McGuigan · · Score: 0, Troll

    Wish I had mod points now, mod parent insightful

  21. Easy answer, but not what you're thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The First Sale doctrine is irrelevant to this case due to Congress's control of the borders. If these imports fall under Congress's authority to regulate imports, the appeal ends there just like Roberts's decision on the health care mandate falling under the Congressional power to lay taxes.

      * Are the books being imported into the US? Yes.
      * Can Congress regulate what may be imported into the US, and in what circumstances? Yes.

    I predict a short decision along that line by the court's right wing, with the court's left wing writing a separate and contradictory concurrence about how these laws help the copyright industry and therefore are constitutional. One or two neoconfederates in the right wing may write a dissent about property rights.

    1. Re:Easy answer, but not what you're thinking by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      I think there are treaties preventing the government from prohibiting import, if those same items are legal to sell in the US.

    2. Re:Easy answer, but not what you're thinking by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

      The case has nothing to do with "Congress's control of the borders". It is about the interpretation of "17 USC Â 109 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Effect of transfer of particular copy or phonorecord", specifically the phrase "lawfully made under this title". The plaintiffs contend that the books in question, having been made outside the USA, were not "made under this title" but instead were made under the laws of the nation of manufacture. The defendant maintains that the phrase is merely meant to exclude infringing copies.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  22. If there is a tricky part, fix the law. by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    The tricky part is whether that first-sale doctrine applies to material both manufactured and first purchased outside the United States.
    Does "this title" apply to any copyrighted work — whether manufactured all or in part in the United States and around the world?

    The "tricky part" is that maybe it doesn't. The straightforward part is that it should. If it doesn't, fix the law so that it works as it should.

  23. Re:not their job to decide if the law is unjust by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 2

    Bang.

    This is the point that is often overlooked.

    Here's Conneticut vs Fourntin -
    http://womenriseupnow.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/state-of-connecticut-v-fourtin/

    Everyone is screaming "travesty" - I am digging around trying to find the awful case that results if the ruling went the other way.

    However Slashdot threads are only good for 2 days anyway so I won't find it before everyone leaves anyway.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  24. Several questions by barv · · Score: 1

    1. How is this different to having an agent buy the books second hand overseas and having an agent bring them into the US? Because if it is different, then the point of sale must be proven.
    2. If point 1 is found not to be different, then this would be a major rewrite of internet sales laws.
    3. What about patented pharmaceuticals? I could imagine that big pharma might want some input into reselling of their patented drugs back into the US.
    4. Isn't it time we started a political movement to shorten copyright & patent terms, and to reduce rights?

    1. Re:Several questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4. Isn't it time we started a political movement to shorten copyright & patent terms, and to reduce rights?

      Better yet, start a movement to only buy/sell things that aren't encumbered by copyrights and patents. Please design and manufacture some things I want, I'll buy stuff from you.

    2. Re:Several questions by barv · · Score: 1

      Some patents are pivotal, like say antibiotics. Or what if somebody discovered a really cheap, quick and accurate test for cancer and charged say $10, 000 for each use for the next 50 years?

      As for copyrights, I think its reasonable that I could record and distribute say a concert that I attended without breaching somebody's copyright. As for books, electronic copies could be provided profitably from an author website for less than a dollar. Even without the copyright system, authors and performers would still live well.

      The social utility and justification for the introduction of copyright and patent law was to provide an income for the developers of novel or artistic works. That social utility vanishes when the owners of those concessions abuse their position to profit beyond the reasonable recovery of performance or innovation costs.

  25. is maybe not so simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    prices are set at what the market can bare, so in poor countries the profit margin maybe lower than in rich countries
    so the rich and poor both get books and the producer gets a decent average profit, each paying to their ability

    when that is bypassed by someone parallel importing, the price set to the same worldwide it need to got up to get
    the same profit, thus the rich countries get it cheaper, the poor countries more expensive maybe to point of not buying at all

    that is of course depending on the naive assumption that the the profit is set at a resonable level required to make
    producing books worth while

    same issue for medicine, is it bad that some medicine is sold at close to cost in poor countries and the profit and development
    cost made up by charging more in rich countries?

    1. Re:is maybe not so simple by green1 · · Score: 1

      Why do we reserve the right to game international markets exclusively for corporations? If they can set the prices in different parts of the world however they like, why can't I choose to buy in different parts of the world wherever I like?
      Why protect corporations while refusing to protect individuals? I thought we ruled that corporations are people, if so it's time we scaled their rights back to the same level as individual people.

    2. Re:is maybe not so simple by green1 · · Score: 1

      Hate to respond to myself, but I want to clarify. I have no problem whatsoever with them charging whatever they want in different locations. That is their perogative. I just think that we should have the same right to buy wherever we want.

    3. Re:is maybe not so simple by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Well we have to ask ourselves what we want. A single world market, or separate markets for each continent/state/region.
      The answer for the rich is simple : A single market for workforce and separate markets for everything else - they can afford to buy things where they are chap, if they feel like it.
      Now the answer for everyone else is not quite so clear, but either choice has benefits and drawbacks.

    4. Re:is maybe not so simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      protecting the corporations might in way protect (some) individuals, the poor and rich get get equal access to books, medicine etc. under the gentleman's agreement that the rich make up the "loss" in selling cheap to the poor. If selling cheap to the poor just ruins the price, corporations might just decide it is not worth it

      when looking at the big picture things are seldom black and white

    5. Re:is maybe not so simple by green1 · · Score: 1

      If they were selling at a loss, they wouldn't sell to those places at all, which means it's still profitable, just not as profitable as elsewhere. There is no right to make a certain amount of money. If you can get away with it fine, but don't use the government to force it on us.

      It is actually pretty black and white here, if there were no profit from selling at the lower price they wouldn't do it. So it obviously still makes moeny. It's not my fault that their greed makes them want to make even more money in a different country. If I want to buy from somewhere that they are willing to sell, then they have no right to legislate against that.

      Further to this, we have already decided that corporations are allowed to shop around the world for cheaper parts, raw materials, and labour. Why would we then outlaw individuals doing the same thing?

      If your business model requires government intervention to make it profitable, you are doing things wrong. Can't have it both ways. Time to return some of the rights back to individuals.

  26. Thousand miles - federalism, enumerated powers by raymorris · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "why should ... a thousand miles away." The framers DID account for that, by making a FEDERAL government, not a national one. The people a thousand miles away have only the enumerated powers, with all other powers reserved to the states and the people. That's how the Constitution avoids having people a thousand miles away make your decisions for you, NOT by having judges make up the law as they go along.

    1. Re:Thousand miles - federalism, enumerated powers by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      NOT by having judges make up the law as they go along.

      They can't "make up law" they can just interpret vague, confusing, or contradictory laws. The real problem is that lawmakers intentionally pass unconstitutional laws expecting the judicial "line item veto" for the parts they don't like, as that's easier than changing the law. But the judges can't make new law, the worst they can do is allow bad laws (passed and signed) to stay, or strike down good laws, they can't make something illegal that wasn't included in the law. A judge hearing a custody battle over a pet can't "make up a law" to make gay marriage illegal. That level of insanity is left to the lawmakers.

  27. China.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because it's hard to compete against a nation where piracy is commonplace. The best they can do is come near $0 - $0.01 as you state. I doubt piracy/ knock-offs was part of the free-market/ capitalism.

    1. Re:China.. by brxndxn · · Score: 1

      This case is not arguing piracy one bit. That is introducing a new scope into the discussion.

      --
      --- We need more Ron Paul!
    2. Re:China.. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 0

      Actually, 'piracy' and 'knockoffs' are the pure ruthlessness of real free market capitalism. Copyright is government intervention in the market through legal means with a nominally collectivist goal of promoting progress.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  28. Re: travesty of CT supreme court ruling by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1
    That is a sad, sad, story. I've got two replies to you. The first re your content: the ruling would then imply that necrophilia would not be illegal nothwithstanding any other laws regarding sex with the dead, and would also imply that sex with a drunk/drugged passed-out woman or man would also be legal as such a passed-out person also would not put up enough of a fight

    .

    re "However Slashdot threads are only good for 2 days anyway so I won't find it before everyone leaves anyway", I agree with you. It's annoying because I found (through a backlink from a reply to my comment to another comment to a fairly recent story) that I could not submit a response to a /. story that was just barely 2 weeks old because the article had already been "archived" and would not allow for any more postings.

    .

    WTF? So someone who cares enough to follow an interesting story and may have something very on-point to contribute can't add anything? If they're worried about spammers, they could limit additions to articles greater than a few days old to higher-karma posters or to logged in posters only (allowing them anonymity as needed), but just outright denying them access to post?

    What if I'd missed reading /. for a few days and was just browsing back day by day and found something interesting? It's sad, but I have to agree with your conclusion that these threads are only good for a couple of days.

  29. Economic consequences by poity · · Score: 1

    Purely looking at the law, I'd likely agree with you, but reimportation is more complicated than it appears on the surface.
    Let's establish some givens:
    1. Publishers are out to maximize profits, and
    2. Regional pricing gives greater access to consumers in poorer countries.

    If reimportation were to be fully legal, these US companies, whose greatest profit comes from domestic sales, would be far more likely to raise export prices to match domestic prices and cope with decreased export sales than to depress what is their most lucrative stream of revenue by lowering domestic prices to compete with reimported goods. The consequence then is that the poorest consumers would find themselves priced out of the market, and because this case deals with books it has the secondary effect of limiting the availability of education and empowerment which the poorest people most need.

    Unless the government is prepared to intervene dramatically in how companies operate and implement price ceilings to equalize all prices across regions, the most likely result we'll see from this is that prices of export US goods will increase, making them less competitive globally, resulting in less choice for international consumers and less export revenue for the US, and all this in a time when the US can least afford a decrease in economic influence or an expansion of trade deficit.

    It won't be an easy decision for the Supreme Court to make, there will be a great fight between moralists and pragmatists, and rest assured the White House and Congress will be on the side of maintaining illegality.

    --
    your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    1. Re:Economic consequences by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      2. Regional pricing gives greater access to consumers in poorer countries.

      It also give more access to businesses in poorer countries. Those businesses then use those lower costs to undercut businesses in the USA and hence move more jobs abroad.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:Economic consequences by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I think you are ignoring other possible outcomes. One of the reasons to sell books cheaply in foreign markets is to keep local industries from arising in those markets, allowing them to keep control of highly profitable markets. If cheap editions stop being made in Thailand, Thai publishers will arrive and sell at prices Thais can afford, and then sell and eviscerate the competition in the US market, much to the benefit of American students.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:Economic consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your argument applies right down to the individual person. Why shouldn't the publisher be able to price individually for each customer. DRM will make that possible and will allow the publisher to capture all value in all transactions with no net value to the wider community at all. That's not right.

      If reimportation were to be fully legal, these US companies, whose greatest profit comes from domestic sales, would be far more likely to raise export prices to match domestic prices and cope with decreased export sales than to depress what is their most lucrative stream of revenue by lowering domestic prices to compete with reimported goods.

      You're implicitly assuming a non-free market. In reality what will happen is that the vacuum in the cheap market will cause competition to develop which will then be exported to the expensive market causing the publisher in the expensive market to lift their game or get out. A win for billions in both the rich and the poor markets, a loss for narrow vested interests and a huge net benefit to society. Exactly as already happens in markets where price fixing is not possible. Allowing publishers to region price fix, breaking the free market, is a large part of why both authors and readers get no net value.

      It won't be an easy decision for the Supreme Court to make

      It's actually quite easy to make but narrow vested interests will spend a lot of money trying to block common sense with propaganda and outright lies.

  30. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by echucker · · Score: 0

    Read poster's previous history - a shill. Communism has yet to work because those in a place of leadership corrupt the system, and the individual still gets screwed - pretty much the hallmark of all systems today.

  31. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Gryle · · Score: 1

    I can't tell if you're serious or just an exquisite troll.

    --
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
  32. Oh it is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is a shitty law allows unfair price discrimination. Why should different people get different prices on mass produced items like books solely based on what country they live in?

    According to that law what he did is piracy, but any sane person would say it's not. Of course, I'm sure some economist or businessman could give a very convincing yet convoluted logic that would justify this type of price discrimination.

    1. Re:Oh it is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a shitty law allows unfair price discrimination. Why should different people get different prices on mass produced items like books solely based on what country they live in?

      Because that is all the IP owner can get in say a developing nation. The book is written, it is a sunk cost, you get what you can from that point forward. If you insist on developed nation pricing in a developing nation you get nothing. If you offer developing nation pricing everywhere then the cost of the book is never recouped and you go out of business.

      The developed world subsidizes the developing world. Get used to that.

    2. Re:Oh it is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finally a comment in this thread from someone who isn't completely retarded.

    3. Re:Oh it is simple by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Because that is all the IP owner can get in say a developing nation. The book is written, it is a sunk cost, you get what you can from that point forward. If you insist on developed nation pricing in a developing nation you get nothing. If you offer developing nation pricing everywhere then the cost of the book is never recouped and you go out of business. The developed world subsidizes the developing world. Get used to that.

      Tough. The corporations buy products and outsource jobs to where it is cheapest to produce, why shouldn't we take advantage of the global marketplace too? With rules like these there's no "free trade" for consumers, we have to buy in our region/country or it won't work or it's illegal. DVDs and BluRays are obvious examples, in some cases a US game won't work on an EU console, Steam has region-locked games too where you need a VPN to trick it and so on. This should be a clue to many other areas in society too, even if they pretend it's a two way street they'll make sure they can screw you but you can't screw them. Like the people willing to give up their privacy because they think "everybody watches everybody" is ever going to become reality, you'll really give up your privacy but they won't really give up theirs.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  33. Re:not their job to decide if the law is unjust by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1
    Thanks for the pointer to the story. I can only hope, like you do, that there is some strange higher-level understanding that requires the law to be that way. I've read part of the dissent pdf file and the first issue seems to be :

    Therefore, although she was indeed physically helpless in the ordinary sense of the term, she was not physically helpless for purposes of the statute.), and State v. Bucknell, 144 Wn. App. 524, 529â"30, 183 P.3d 1078 (2008)

    .

    There also seems to be a bizarre point about whether or not the victim had been taught any sexual information in the sense that if they didn't know about it how could they deny consent for it? Would that be the break that would allow the rape of children who had not yet been taught the facts of life and/or were brought up to respect authority?

  34. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by icebraining · · Score: 4, Funny

    Slashdot is upvoting the Communist Manifesto? That's unexpected.

    (funnily enough, the marxists.org page, which hosts the Manifesto, claims copyright over the document! It's probably over the translation, but still hilariously hypocrite)

  35. Sig Solves it all by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    "Do what thou wilt"

    So they can do whatever they want. Thread over.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  36. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by jedidiah · · Score: 1

    > All property relations in the past have continually been subject to historical change consequent upon the change in historical conditions.

    American property law acknowledges precedents that stretch back into the middle ages. This isn't France where they declare a new Constitution every 3 years.

    Americans at large buy too much into the notion fed to us by our public schools that American history doesn't extend back much further than 1776. This isn't the case at all.

    It takes a long time for democracy to germinate as it did in our own case. That's why attempts at "nation building" are less satisfying than we hope. We go into with a bogus set of assumptions and a gross misunderstanding of even our own history.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  37. The real issue is dumping by tomhath · · Score: 1

    The manufacturers charge high prices in the US because they can get away with it. Forget about books, think about what this could mean to pharmaceuticals or electronics retailing; the US has been subsidizing those products forever.

  38. Sell the book by future+assassin · · Score: 2

    wrapped in brown paper and with a lock on it. You're only selling the paper that's its written on, the lock protects the written stuff. Not you problem it the buyer breaks the lock after purchase.

    Or if you're selling it why not state I'm selling the paper from this book. Its up to the buyer to not read the copyrighted print.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  39. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

    Read poster's previous history - a shill.

    Communism has yet to work because those in a place of leadership corrupt the system, and the individual still gets screwed - pretty much the hallmark of all systems today.

    Communism has yet to work because humans are selfish to a greater or lesser degree. There is not one human being on this Earth, that is not selfish to some extent. A certain amount of selfishness is necessary for survival. A dog will growl at you and may even bite, if you try to take its food away from it. It is when selfishness turns into greed, all distribution of wealth problems begin. Taking things away from those who want to work and giving it to those who are lazy and don't want to work brings a society or culture to a halt, whether that society is human or a beehive or ant colony.

    --
    A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
  40. FoxConn has no license to Apple IP ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Of course Apple owns the iPhone's intellectual property. If anything, FoxConn has to license IP from Apple for the purposes of manufacturing Apple's stuff. That license dictates, among other things, that no iPhones will exit the back door.

    As a contractor of Apple, FoxConn needs no license to handle Apple IP. The Apple-FoxConn contract would not give FoxConn any rights (which is what a license does), it would have FoxConn acknowledge that FoxConn has no rights at all to Apple's IP and that FoxConn will respect and protect Apple's IP and handle that IP only in ways directed by Apple.

    If FoxConn were selling a product with Apple IP to a 3rd party then FoxConn would need a license.

    1. Re:FoxConn has no license to Apple IP ... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      IP is an ugly mishmash of copyrights, trademarks, patents, and trade secrets, some of which are used in the manufacturing process.

    2. Re:FoxConn has no license to Apple IP ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

      IP is an ugly mishmash of copyrights, trademarks, patents, and trade secrets, some of which are used in the manufacturing process.

      True, but IP for the manufacturing process is not what this article is discussing. The IP that consumers will ultimately posses is the topic.

  41. Different for multinational corporations ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    If something - a book, cell phone, car - is manufactured outside the US for export to the US, is it being sold outside the US to the importer.

    Unless you are dealing with a multinational corporation and a product is being transferred from one regional unit of the multinational to another regional unit of the multinational. The product never leaves the hands of the IP's owner, the multinational.

  42. Strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    weird, my hard copy translation of his and Engel's works does not contain any copyright notices.

  43. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Communism has yet to work because humans are selfish to a greater or lesser degree.

    Actually, being selfish is not a problem, because in general, what goes around comes around, and most people understand that. The problem is to let that people come into power who don't understand this. One way to avoid this is, not to fall for the vanguard party bullshit that Marx proclaimed and that we have seen in the so called "communist" countries in the east, where in the end a few ruled over the masses and exploited the system for their own good - just like in capitalism.

  44. See the Omega case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Costco lost a similar lawsuit, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_S.A._v._Costco_Wholesale_Corp.

  45. These books aren't meant for sale in the USA by Pigeon451 · · Score: 1

    I've bought textbooks from overseas before as they were 1/4 the cost of a one here and nearly identical (paper is cheaper, quality control is non-existent and rarely some chapters/questions are different). The textbook explicitly says not for purchase or resale outside of India (or whatever country).

    He made $37,000 in revenue according to the article -- this isn't just a few books, this is an import business he set up. In this case, the student bought and sold them for profit. This is clearly trying to circumvent the publisher's distribution methods.

    The publishers are douches for marking them up massively for first world countries, but it's their right and they're within the law to do this. They rightfully went after him. Will they get paid? Highly unlikely, but at least they prevent copycats.

    Again I think the publishers are dicks for gouging students, but, until a law is passed preventing this, or another method of textbook distribution is created, they can do this.

    1. Re:These books aren't meant for sale in the USA by erice · · Score: 1

      I've bought textbooks from overseas before as they were 1/4 the cost of a one here and nearly identical (paper is cheaper, quality control is non-existent and rarely some chapters/questions are different). The textbook explicitly says not for purchase or resale outside of India (or whatever country).

      He made $37,000 in revenue according to the article -- this isn't just a few books, this is an import business he set up. In this case, the student bought and sold them for profit. This is clearly trying to circumvent the publisher's distribution methods.

      The publishers are douches for marking them up massively for first world countries, but it's their right and they're within the law to do this.

      Absolutely. Publishers can price their books any way they want. They can also print whatever directives they want on the cover. However, that doesn't mean those directives are in any way binding on the purchaser. The First Sale doctrine say that they are not. If the cheap books were sold in West Virginia with a directive saying "not for resale outside of West Virginia" and and the buyer resold them in California, there would be no question. The buyer can do this.

    2. Re:These books aren't meant for sale in the USA by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      You'd be surprised what is illegal to sell in California, like certain varieties of house paint that are legal everywhere else.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  46. Affordability determines price? by garyoa1 · · Score: 1

    Ok, so you sell it for less if the people can't afford it. But if they can afford it you sell it for more. Why does that sound like price gouging?

    --
    Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
  47. Re:ban professors from ripping pages out of books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wow. I've never heard of that before (ripping pages from the book). That's seriously fucked up. I would never take a class from a professor like that (would drop the class if I was already in it) and I would make sure the whole internet knows about that professor.

  48. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Communism = equality at the lowest common denominator. The ideology disincentivizes progress and individual exceptionalism. At best, society stagnates. At worst, it falls apart due to corruption.

    The problem is man. Has been. Always will be. You can take man away from nature, but you can't take nature away from man. We are our own worst enemy.

    "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Churchill - 1947

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  49. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by cothrige · · Score: 1

    "The average price of wage-labour is the minimum wage . . ."

    This seems to be a novel way of finding an average. Is this some communist form of math I have not been previously aware of?

  50. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... intending to do away with your property.

    It becomes another form of communism where the common citizen owns nothing which generates wealth. The current corporatocracy is a form of feudalism where the working class has no social or economic power.

    Everybody suffered equally, when marxism attempted to eliminate the wealth generation derived from owning property.

  51. Cornell Campus Store rips you off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I was at Cornell a few years before this guy started his thing. I had to buy books from either the Cornell Campus Store or Triangle Books down in collegetown. I blame the Cornell Campus Store for this.

    CCC ripped you off on the sale and on the buyback. Triangle was cheaper, slightly. I heard Triangle went out of business around that time.

    The students from foreign countries often did buy the overseas versions of the textbooks because it was a lot cheaper.

    What else would you do if annual tuition is basically the 20% downpayment on a house (and still is)?

  52. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    American property law acknowledges precedents that stretch back into the middle ages.

    And it revokes them too. Explicitly.

    This isn't France where they declare a new Constitution every 3 years.

    Maybe we should, or at least 30, rather than going on 300.

    Americans at large buy too much into the notion fed to us by our public schools that American history doesn't extend back much further than 1776. This isn't the case at all.

    Americans at large buy too much into superficial notions of history without examination of details that really need to be gone into.

    It takes a long time for democracy to germinate as it did in our own case. That's why attempts at "nation building" are less satisfying than we hope. We go into with a bogus set of assumptions and a gross misunderstanding of even our own history.

    Maybe if we spent more time building our own nation.

  53. And the winner is... by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    the one who spends the most money on litigation and lobbyists.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  54. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You do understand that beside natives there was no one in what is today the USA, and no, native law did not made it into american law.

  55. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While communism deserves much criticism the use of copyright for a website citing the communist manifesto is not a good one. Copyright has utility beyond simple property assertion. The very notion that copyright asserts property is a distorted and inflated idea in the current mindset due to recent tech developments making duplication easier. Copyright also provides some utility in perserving the integrity of a particular expression as well as proper attribution. If there were no copyright then laws or rules strengthening the ability to control one's own work would be needed. Just because profit, profit, and profit is the only standard we are seemingly allowed to consider in our day blinds many to the fact that copyright as written was also about controlling the author's expression for other than financial gain.

  56. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Skinny+Rav · · Score: 1

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" shows that Communism must lead to totalitarian regime. Atrocities of Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Red Khmers were not "errors", they were natural consequence of the essence of Communism.

    Greed and laziness will ensure that most people would overestimate their needs and underestimate their abilities. This would require some external judgement, by the state, by the party, by the system. So, basically someone else would judge how much you can work and enforce that you work that much. Similarily someone would have to assess your needs and provide you with goods according to this. So the result is that an individual cannot decide for himself, which would be... slavery?

    And in fact, apart from short periods of enthusiasm e.g. right after WW2, all communist states were founded on slavery, both hidden (compulsory employment) and official (e.g. Gulag).

  57. Supreme what? by Sqreater · · Score: 1

    The best that can be expected from the Supreme What is that they come down firmly in the middle of an obvious question.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
  58. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    That you can string words together does not imply that you can form a coherent thought.

    For instance:

    The average price of wage-labour is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer.

    If the average were the minimum, then all work for pay ("wage-labour") would be exactly the same. (You are bright enough to do the math, aren't you?) But living expenses vary with location (for instance, by necessity, someone in Manitoba pays more for heat than someone in Florida). So if the person in Manitoba earns just enough to live, that same amount of money provides the Floridian with money to spare. Conversely, if the Floridian gets just enough to live, the Manitoban dies and nobody could live there.

    Flaws in your excuse for logic notwithstanding, you are completely divorced from reality. Very few people live in a place without a TV, and of those fewer still can't afford one. Same for telephones. Neither is a necessity for life. Thus even if your argument for "bare existence" were valid, the number of people to whom it could apply is vanishingly small.

    You need to know what is real and how things work before you spout off. You need to use your mind to observe and test your theories, not blabber whatever your biassed teacher has pumped into your skull.

    While you're at it, look up the definition of "quantum"

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  59. Designer dresses NOT covered by copyright, et al. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only the designer's trademark (and that ONLY being their logo brand) are covered. Copying a dress design is perfectly legal. Copyrights do not cover fashion. Nor trademarks nor patents.

  60. Amazon sells CD imports that violate US copyright by donberryman · · Score: 1

    Currently Amazon sells import CD's of music from Europe where copyright of recorded material expires after 50 years, in the US it is after 70 years. So Amazon is selling sets of great music (including recordings of Miles Davis, Elvis Presley, Johny Cash, Zoot Simms John Coltrane, Frank Sinatra, etc) from the 50's made legally in Europe as public domain, but under copyright in the US. If this studend is found guilty, it would seem Amazon must be also. Check out this set of 8 Ellington albums for $15 http://www.amazon.com/8-Classic-Albums-Duke-Ellington/dp/B006UFCFBQ made in Europe, available for purchase in the US.

  61. Isn't this already legal? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    If I buy legitimate (not counterfeit) product from China, import it to USA and then sell it, do I need the permission of the IP owner to do so? Isn't that what parallel importing is?

  62. Re:Amazon sells CD imports that violate US copyrig by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    I would imagine music by Elvis Presley sold in the USA would still be getting royalties paid on it.
    You know, since he is 2nd on the Dead Celebrity rich list http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/forbes-15-richest-dead-celebrities-list-2011-top-earning-celebs-2852059.html

  63. Re:Amazon sells CD imports that violate US copyrig by donberryman · · Score: 1

    I doubt it. According to the New York TImes: "Copyright protection lasts only 50 years in European Union countries, compared with 95 years in the United States, even if the recordings were originally made and released in America. So recordings made in the early- to mid-1950's -- by figures like Maria Callas, Elvis Presley and Ella Fitzgerald -- are entering the public domain in Europe, opening the way for any European recording company to release albums that had been owned exclusively by particular labels. Although the distribution of such albums would be limited to Europe in theory, record-store chains and specialty outlets in the United States routinely stock foreign imports." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/03/world/companies-in-us-sing-blues-as-europe-reprises-50-s-hits.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

  64. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Marxists.org puts a copyleft notice on 'The communist manifesto'. Even that is kind of ridiculous, since it was published in 1848 (yes, including the English translation), and even Disney wouldn't claim it was still in copyright.

  65. Re:Abolish private property! We need communism now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll bite.
    Explain to the prostitute why she should freely give of her labour if not for some tangible reward. You may argue that prostitution will cease when there is no need for money to survive but the demand will remain so long as there are men who are unable to find a woman who will have them freely and there will always be some significant number of people who are willing to work for personal advantage.

    Even a small child figures out the basic premises of trade once they learn that other people have things that they value. Communism requires a post-scarcity culture to be even remotely viable and that still does not remove the desire to have more than one's neighbours. Capitalism does a better job of capturing human nature, It's not the fault of the system that humans are brutish, merely a factor that must be mitigated, the preferred method being uniformly applied laws, all others having proved worse. Both Smith and Marx understood that the capitalists cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of society, only their solutions differ. That of Marx requires, IMO, significant wishful thinking about human nature.