Apple Loses Patent Case For FaceTime Tech, Owes $368 Million

beeudoublez writes "Apple was ordered to pay $368 million today to a software company named VirnetX over patents related to Apple's FaceTime technology. Apple engineers testified they didn't pay attention to any patents when building FaceTime. 'The jury, which had sat through the five-day trial, ruled that Apple infringed two patents: one for a method of creating a virtual private network (VPN) between computers, and another for solving DNS security issues. ... It's not the first time VirnetX has won a payout from a major tech firm: the company bagged $105.7m from Microsoft two years ago, and it may not be the last either. VirnetX has a separate case against Apple pending with the International Trade Commission and it has court cases against Cisco, Avaya and Siemens scheduled for trial next year.'" It's not all bad news for Apple today, though — according to Ars, they've won a new patent for a rounded rectangle (D670,286).

Comments

So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

The Patent Office should be dismantled (along with the TSA)

Re:So f*cked up

[pecosdave]

As much as I dislike Apple - for being patent trolls and bullies - it makes me sick to my stomach this happened to them. I mean I enjoy the suffering and all, it's just a really bad thing for the tech world in general. The patent trolling, not Apple suffering.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the patent office should be dismantled. But there needs to be some reform.

All we see here on Slashdot and the rest of the media are large corporations and law firms abusing the system. We don't see any stories about the lone inventor working in his garage, patenting his invention, starting a company, and creating lots of jobs while getting rich. Dean Kamen comes to mind as an example of the patent system and the American Inventor dream working - as far as I can tell.

So, please let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re:So f*cked up

[YodasEvilTwin]

Nobody at the patent office appears to have any expertise with a functional system for promoting invention and avoiding all the piles of crap that are stifling innovation, clogging the justice system, etc. so I think it's perfectly reasonable that the patent office been dismantled.

All patents older than 20 years should be eliminated along with the office, and a new agency put in place with sane rules to review the rest (invalidating many of them) and new ones going forward.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple suffering over this, means *we all* suffer. To Apple, this is just raising the bar to market entry. $368 millions is peanuts to them. Effectively, this just means a steep artificial fee at the troll gate, which effectively supports the dinosaurs just fine. They don't care that they're sucking the life-blood of the economy. So if reform should start somewhere, it should start with the law and financials.

Re:So f*cked up

[pecosdave]

In this particular case Apple suffering may help us all.

Remember the famous patent troll of recent past Amazon? Now Amazon is actually starting to suggest patents are going overboard and trolls need to be shut down. If Apple gets on the losing end of enough of these battles they may actually join hands with Amazon and *gasp* Samsung when they've had enough to lobby to fix the problem.

Until then troll them and the other patent troll companies until they have a change of heart.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't patents already expire after ~18 years now, or was it extended?

Re:So f*cked up

[YodasEvilTwin]

My bad on that, I was thinking of copyright.

Re:So f*cked up

[oh_my_080980980]

Do you know what a patent troll is? A patent troll is someone who owns a patent BUT DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING WITH IT. It sounds like this applies to VirnetX. But Apple makes things with the technology they have a patent for, thus they would not be a patent troll.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah come back to me when Amazon put's the 1-click patent into the public domain. Then they'll have the moral ground.

Re:So f*cked up

[pecosdave]

Fine.

Patent abuser then.

Let the trolls attack the abusers.

Re:So f*cked up

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

....except when it rules in favour of Apple, then you should send them gift baskets and puppies. I am sure you wanted to say.

Re:So f*cked up

[interval1066]

That Apple completely ignored absolutely legitimate tech patents but "invented" a rectangle with rounded corners makes you sad for Apple? I think I'm sick to my stomach...

Re:So f*cked up

[mcgrew]

All patents older than 20 years should be eliminated

Since patents only last 20 years, all patents older than 20 years have already been eliminated.

Re:So f*cked up

[tricorn]

That's a design patent, which really has little to do with "real" patents. It's closer to a trademark than a normal patent.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

$368 millions is peanuts to them.

Assuming they didn't copy, add in the cost of developing duplicate technology from scratch.
And lawyer fees for the case.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I dislike Apple - for being patent trolls and bullies - it makes me sick to my stomach this happened to them. I mean I enjoy the suffering and all, it's just a really bad thing for the tech world in general. The patent trolling, not Apple suffering.

And yet none of these multinational tech corporations lobbies for patent reform. It should make you think.
I have no sympathy for any of them, they get what they deserve. Pay 300 milion $, 1 bilion $, 10 bilion $ it doesn't matter.
If they pay it means it's worth the cost. And therefore patent reform stays dormant.

Re:So f*cked up

[Lithdren]

Apple is hardly clean of any of this as well with the way they've been throwing their weight around as well.

If anything, everyone involved needs to be dragged into the street and told to knock it off before kneecaps start getting busted. Sadly there's too much money to be made, by all involved, for that to happen.

But dont pretend Apple is innocent in any of it, just makes you out to be a shill instead of having some kind of actual point.

Re:So f*cked up

[Charliemopps]

Bullshit. Apple uses their patents to prevent competition by refusing to license them even though they are for ridiculous things like rectangles and such. If you're preventing innovation by using patents for your own commercial gain, you're a patten troll. There are many ways to do this, apple is very good at their brand. VirnetX is very good at theirs. The fact that 2 patent trolls are battling it out doesn't make one the good guy. The sad state of affairs is that our system is so broken its turning companies that really don't want to be a part of this nonsense into trolls themselves. It's getting to be the only way to do business anymore.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple suffering over this, means *we all* suffer. To Apple, this is just raising the bar to market entry. $368 millions is peanuts to them. Effectively, this just means a steep artificial fee at the troll gate, which effectively supports the dinosaurs just fine. They don't care that they're sucking the life-blood of the economy. So if reform should start somewhere, it should start with the law and financials.

Its always hillarious when I see people on the internet try and give some grade school armchair comment and it just falls completely flat and makes absolutely no insight at all. Its just a bunch of blubbering that somehow sounds intelligent, savvy and informative in their heads while to everyone else its not much more than charlie browns teacher could muster.

And for the record, if you think ANYONE anywhere in the world regardless of how rich or poor they are would say "360 million? Thats peanuts" then you are a complete fucking imbicile. If your some gas station cashier or bill gates 360 million dollars is a lot of fucking money. There isnt a person alive who would lose that much in court and just say "eh its peanuts".

Re:So f*cked up

[Tough Love]

Do you know what a patent troll is?

Let's clear that up right now. The proper technical term for what Apple and Amazon do is "Patent Thuggery". Let's not get sidetracked on issues of whether they practice their patents or not, but whether or not they are thugs.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect. A patent owner is under no obligation to license. In fact, the whole point of the patent is to give a limited term monopoly. The revenue source of a patent troll is through legal actions based on forced licensing or settlements of patents it has acquired. This is not the same as pure IP companies that develop technologies for others to license but do not produce any products or services themselves, such as ARM and MIPS.

Re:So f*cked up

[elashish14]

I agree that there's a growing opinion in the industry that things need to change, but I don't think this is the solution. If lawmakers form their policies by only observing the words and actions of major corporations, they will in turn enact policies that favor the same large organizations while in the meantime, the small businesses and start-ups that don't have the capital to start out will get drowned out. In effect, we'll be back where we were in the 90s and early 2000s (if it hasn't even yet stopped) where Microsoft for example would buy up small start-ups that threatened their business, not to utilize and promote these new ideas and technologies, but to simply make these same things go away. Patents will become another weapon that large companies use against smaller ones to make sure that their businesses aren't threatened.

It's great that we see all the chaos that's prevailing, but really the only true victory will be if the patent system is reformed such that it serves its original business - to protect small companies and new ideas from being shunned out - whereas today it does the opposite. I know that it's impossible, particularly in the US where there are no voices without a monied interest behind, but I want to caution us all against falling into the arms of these greedy, monied interests who have no legitimate appreciation for values or fairness.

Re:So f*cked up

[jythie]

Loosing end 'enough'? Have you seen Apple's litigation history? Apple couldn't litigate themselves out of a wet paper bag 99% of the time.

Re:So f*cked up

[elashish14]

So true. The fact that they ignore the patents of others while completely ignoring those of others should honestly have a negative impact on their case when they attack other companies. Sad that it hasn't....

Re:So f*cked up

[greenbird]

Say what you will about Apple, but without them we'd still be the slaves of the cell carriers

You must live in an alternate universe or something. You can get Apple phones from where? Huh, only place I can find is from the same carriers you seem to be claiming Apple freed someone from. They had the Apple fans enslaved exclusively to AT&T for quite a while. The only thing Apple is doing is adding another layer of enslavement to Apple.

Lets see. I can get unlocked Google, Samsung and Motorola phones from all over. I can get phone service for many of their phones from Ting where they even have a forum devoted to helping people root their phones.

Re:So f*cked up

[hairyfeet]

It is THIS, this right here, that just blows my damned mind, this "ballclub mentality" when it comes to large multinational corps. name the company, Apple, Google, MSFT, and I can provide link after link of SERIOUSLY douchebag behavior from these companies, yet there is a large section of the populace that if it is "their" company will go "la la la, can't hear you!" and root for them like its the fucking Cubs, I just don't GET that.

Is it some sort of fucked up variant of buyer's remorse, where they have to root for "their" product because God forbid they made a wrong choice? hell if i know but I think it deserves further study, because how somebody can root for some faceless megacorp they don't even have stock riding on is just beyond me.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, If I wanted this to happen to any company, it would be Apple. Nobody deserves this more than them. Fuck'em.

Re:So f*cked up

[greg1104]

Patent troll is only applicable to companies who lobby patent suits but don't make things; usage stretching behind that is sloppy terminology. The reason for that distinction is that patent troll companies are normally a non-practising entity (NPE), which lets them sue without fear of a counter-suit. That's what makes them so troublesome. When Apple and Samsung battle, ultimately both have products covered by patents held by the other. While Apple may not like licensing their patents, it's possible for them to be forced into cross-licensing with another company that builds real products, or both companies can be deadlocked and unable to sell. That possibility isn't there on a true patent troll company. They only sue for infringement and never need to license to cover their own products, because they don't have any.

Re:So f*cked up

[greg1104]

"A functional system for promoting invention and avoiding all the piles of crap that stifle innovation". Add a block diagram and it sounds like you've got yourself a patent right there.

I've always wanted to file a business process patent for patent trolling, and then sue all the patent troll companies for violating it.

Re:So f*cked up

[DeadCatX2]

In fact, the whole point of the patent is to give a limited term monopoly.

In exchange for making the invention public. One would assume that making the invention public isn't intended to prevent competition altogether.

Re:So f*cked up

[JDG1980]

All we see here on Slashdot and the rest of the media are large corporations and law firms abusing the system. We don't see any stories about the lone inventor working in his garage, patenting his invention, starting a company, and creating lots of jobs while getting rich. Dean Kamen comes to mind as an example of the patent system and the American Inventor dream working - as far as I can tell.

But that's not what the patent system is supposed to be about. The purpose of the patent system is not to reward inventors. It's to "promote the progress of Science and the useful Arts." Patents are just a means to an end, not some kind of inalienable right. And recent events indicate that patents are probably a net negative and we'd be better off overall if we just abolished the damn things altogether.

Re:So f*cked up

[Cyberax]

Actually, in many countries a patent holder might be forced to license their patents. It's not a simple process, but it's usually possible in cases of bullshit like asking $2 for overscroll patents.

Re:So f*cked up

[mrclisdue]

I sometimes root for the Cubs.

cheers,

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is a corporation, not a person.

Re:So f*cked up

[helix2301]

I love this " another for solving DNS security issues" so Apple fixed this companies DNS security issue and they sued them for patent infringement. I am not a big Apple fan but this is messed up.

Re:So f*cked up

[david_thornley]

Except that Apple saved its customers from the worst of AT&T. Carriers would love to sell you a subsidized phone with crapware on it, locked down so you had to pay them to do anything with it, with small and expensive data plans. By buying an iPhone, I get a subsidized phone with relatively little crapware, immense numbers of things I can buy cheaply without paying AT&T, and a good data plan. I still have to deal with carrier limitations and customer disservice, but I can get my phone looked at without going through AT&T, and I can get OS updates when they come out.

Apple didn't do this just because they felt sorry for the cellular customers and wanted to help them, of course, more like they looked at the poor customers and saw a market there for somebody big enough to dictate terms to carriers.

If you want a cell phone with decent coverage, you're going to get screwed by somebody. Before the iPhone, it was the carriers. After the iPhone, you also had the choice of being screwed by Apple. Not only is competition an improvement, and has some potential impact on carrier practices, but Apple is a live theater before screwing you sort of date, which is very unusual in the tech or cell industries.

Re:So f*cked up

[Stratus311]

Losing, not loosing!!!! Ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu!

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of trolls...

Dude. Are you the guy that posts all those "I was gay back in the 1940s as a boy" stories?

Re:So f*cked up

[HiThere]

Sorry, but if you're being attacked, a design patent is very similar to a real patent. You're guilty if you infringe even if you didn't know about it, the limits of what is covered is vague and intentionally obscured, penalties can be huge, and defending yourself is rediculously expensive.

Re:So f*cked up

[redlemming]

Incorrect. A patent owner is under no obligation to license. In fact, the whole point of the patent is to give a limited term monopoly. The revenue source of a patent troll is through legal actions based on forced licensing or settlements of patents it has acquired.

The legal professionals running the legal system have chosen to implement certain text in the Constitution in this fashion. Just because the legal professionals running the legal system have chosen to implement a certain part of the Constitution in a particular way, does not mean that they necessarily have the legitimate authority to do so.

Recall that once upon a time, legal professionals in parts of the USA authorized children of African-Americans to be enslaved: do we wish to consider this an act that these legal professionals had the legitimate authority to do? Was it a legitimate act of government to create the "separate-but-not-actually-equal" system that endured for so many years?

The current system specifies that a patent owner has no obligation to license, permits the existence of patent trolls, and has many other problems, but we do not have to accept this situation.

Recall the extremely strong opposition the Anti-Federalists mounted in many states, and how difficult it was to get the Constitution ratified at all.

A number of states refused to ratify the Constitution without a Bill of Rights. In other states, it was the case that people whose honor and integrity were trusted (such as James Madison) promised to add a Bill of Rights and this was the key determinant in these states accepting the Constitution. Whatever words may have been used in this acceptance, it was well known that this acceptance was conditional, as a matter of practical politics. These states knew that they could back out if they found it necessarily, and at the time it was neither militarily nor politically possible for the other states to force compliance if such an event happened.

This history shows that the Bill of Right supersedes the text of the Constitution, including the text that has been used to justify the current patent system.

The oaths that legal professionals swear require them to accept this. Those that refuse to do so are violating these oaths.

James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights to address two arguments posed by the Anti-Federalists: 1. The Constitution had no Bill of Rights, and 2, any Bill of Rights would be incomplete. The 9th and 10th Amendments (rights retained by the people, rights reserved to the people) were written to deal with the second issue.

Rights retained by the people are by definition retained by the people. If we the people decide that the current patent system is invalid, or aspects of that system, are invalid, then we can force change under the Bill of Rights.

The patent system, as currently implemented, infringes a number of fundamental rights, a point that has been discussed many times on Slashdot. It is long past time we threw it out and came up with something better.

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

fap fap fap....

oh it feels good..

fap fap fap...

Re:So f*cked up

[Anonymous Coward]

I highly doubt that any of their senior execs will think 368 million dollars (insert dr evil face here) is peanuts. i work for a very very VERY large international company that would fire people over 10k.

Apple and their patent wars

[mrbluze]

is like throwing stones in a glass house. It's too early to say whether Apple is heading for a wall, as many predict, but relying on patents to protect their markets instead of functionality, interoperability and build quality (which have been Apple's strengths recently) is a flawed approach.

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[pecosdave]

I took this picture while I was in Manhattan this summer. I took the picture due to that saying, there was a part of me laughing hysterically at the glass houses thing.

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[StuartHankins]

It would be nice if enough stones get thrown that everyone's glass houses are broken. Apple has the cash to survive it, and we need real reform with patents to move forward. Let Apple be one of those who start this process of breaking down the current system.

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[oh_my_080980980]

Yeah because Apple decided to stop making iPhones, iPads, and Macs and live off their patents....oh wait....

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah because Apple decided to stop making iPhones, iPads, and Macs and live off their patents....oh wait....

Replace "making" with "innovating", and you've got a true statement...

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[AmiMoJo]

Apple has another motivation to protect their patents. All their competitors have valuable technology related patents, many of them essential for implementing mobile phone standards. Apple only has a bunch of design patents that it doesn't really want to license anyway and may be invalid, so are basically worthless to anyone else. That leaves them vulnerable to paying huge amounts of cash for the use of standards essential patents.

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[Tough Love]

It's too early to say whether Apple is heading for a wall, as many predict...

I don't think it is too early at all. Just scan the comments to media articles on Apple's recent product introductions. They are just full of comments of the form "I am an Apple fan, I have apple products X, Y and Z, I love them but I am not going buy this Apple product because I disagree with their patent suits, their profiteering on the backs of oppressed workers, and thumbing their noses at EPEAT." Oh, and "this thing costs too much". And "but I just bought the iPad 3, I'm so upset". Easy to verify, you don't need to believe me.

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[Xest]

Apple's stock has lost 20% of it's value in the last 6 weeks alone. This is, in monetary terms, a decrease of over $130bn in value:

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL#symbol=aapl;range=20120917,20121107;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

Their legal strategy is now beginning to fall apart and they've not innovated in over 2 years now, offering only minor updates on their products. It'll be interesting to see what happens regarding the appeals in the US Apple vs. Samsung case, because if the $1.05bn award does get undone, then that's going to tear another massive chunk off of their value.

I don't know that it is too early to say whether Apple is heading for a wall, honestly, it looks like they've already hit it. It's just a question of whether it's now continued decline, or if they can pick themselves back up with another miracle turnaround.

I suspect a lot of it will depend on next years performance, if the iPad 4 and iPhone 6 offer a dramatically new set of features and innovation, or if they produce a whole new product range on the scale of at least the iPad in terms of success then I suspect they may well be able to turn things back around, but if we see nothing more than just yet another minor iteration on a then few year old design since the last real innovation happened then I think they're going to struggle to remain such a sizeable player. The problem is they're not diversified enough for the scenario where their mobile strategy does falter as it accounts to the majority of their profits. Their Mac business is still relatively small compared to the overall PC market (though large as an individual seller) and not as profitable as their mobile business. If their mobile business starts to really struggle (The iPhone is now down to a mere 14% global marketshare from 19% at the start of the year), then all their other profit centres (digital content/apps) will struggle too. Their other markets are just too weak (Apple TV), or have been dropped (Servers).

Honestly, 2013 will be the real test for Apple's survival as a continued major player, it can go one of two ways, either a turnaround in innovation with new products or product lines that regain the momentum, or the tipping point of losing relevance if the iPhone loses the same degree of marketshare it has this year, hence bringing it down to under 10% globally and if new iPad/iPhone models continue to dissapoint the markets and the public.

Re:Apple and their patent wars

[Anonymous Coward]

is like throwing stones in a glass house. It's too early to say whether Apple is heading for a wall, as many predict, but relying on patents to protect their markets instead of functionality, interoperability and build quality (which have been Apple's strengths recently) is a flawed approach.

Big companies have thicker glass than small companies. Apple and FaceTime aren't going away, but any hopes of an alternative just did.

Schadenfreude? No so fast...

[Penguinisto]

Yes, it's good to see a patent pest get what's coming to 'em, but consider... the plaintiff was nothing more than a patent troll.

Personally, *ALL* software patents should die.

Good luck getting anyone in power to agree to that, though. :(

Re:Schadenfreude? No so fast...

[Anonymous Coward]

If only Nortel and RIM had leased all their patents to these trolling companies. Maybe they wouldn't be so small today.

Re:Schadenfreude? No so fast...

[dkleinsc]

Good luck getting anyone in power to agree to that, though.

How about this strategy:
1. Get major tech companies losing big bucks to patent cases.
2. Major tech companies bribe^H lobby congress to change the law so they won't lose big bucks again.

The effect of the trolls has been that there are now organizations with lots to lose, previously kept in check by Mutually Assured Destruction, that now have to actually deal with the patent concept that had previously been used only to smack down start-ups that refused to play nice with them.

Re:Schadenfreude? No so fast...

[Chewbacon]

I think all of these cases should be thrown out unless you are actively manufacturing, selling, or perhaps supporting the said patent. Other than that, you are blatantly stifling innovation. And as to Apple's defense: we didn't know? Seriously?? I hope more companies use that one on them.

Re:Schadenfreude? No so fast...

[blind biker]

Yes, it's good to see a patent pest get what's coming to 'em, but consider... the plaintiff was nothing more than a patent troll.

Sorry man, but I just don't have it in me not to be happy about this turn of events.

This is, indeed, poetic justice. We should hope for more it.

Trolls war.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a trolls war, why should I worry..

Re:Trolls war.

[oodaloop]

First they came for Facetime, but I said nothing because I don't use Facetime...

Re:Trolls war.

[Penguinisto]

Sounds like a trolls war, why should I worry..

Because a growing portion of your goods' retail prices are going to pay for this madness.
. ...or did you think that the corporations would simply eat the cost w/o passing it on?

Re:Trolls war.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope at some point even Apple will stop trolling. Cases like this just make it more obvious. Something has to be done with the patents system, and the sooner the better. As a developer I'm interested in that. But currently we have only growing trolling industry with Apple being the biggest troll ever (Jobs idea?). Anyway, don't think they will learn anything.

PS: I don't care about Apple products price, have none.

Re:Trolls war.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple does stuff with their patents, ergo not a patent troll.

Re:Trolls war.

[Tough Love]

After we get done with laughing at Apple we will help them fight the patent trolls. After all, we don't need help from patent trolls to defeat thug Apple, Android is doing it nicely.

Re:Trolls war.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple does stuff with their patents, ergo not a patent troll.

Only as far as the technical definition of a "patent troll" is concerned.

But they are, definitely, "patent thugs".

Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do some real business reforms and make everyone happy.

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[Anonymous Coward]

That would require pissing off the people who paid for his reelection campaign, though he can't be reelected again so he might as well do something useful now.

Hell, Bush didn't give a fuck during his second term and it showed. I'm just hoping Obama actually cares a little bit and doesn't send us further down the shitter.

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[Penguinisto]

Do some real business reforms and make everyone happy.

Fat chance of that happening.

At risk of sounding trollish, and no matter what your personal ideology on the matters, Obama got re-elected by pushing for as many niche issues as he possibly could - gay marriage, abortion, unions, you-name-it.

He's got enough to do towards keeping those constituencies happy (even though he's lame-duck, his party isn't), and isn't going to have much time towards doing anything beyond that and the day-to-day stuff.

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you call President Obama a lame duck president? He won re-election. He's about to start a new term of another 4 years. If he had lost and Mitt was going to be the president next term then Obama would be considered a lame duck president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_duck_%28politics%29
http://www.davemanuel.com/investor-dictionary/lame-duck/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081109005714AAhM2Xu

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as you can no longer be reelected, you're a lame duck. Just happens he's now a lame duck for 50 months instead of 2. (You know, that whole 2-term limit we have now after FDR).

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[AmiMoJo]

Obama got re-elected by pushing for as many niche issues as he possibly could - gay marriage, abortion, unions, you-name-it.

How are any of those niche issues? Anyone who works has an interest in unions. All women and most Christians have an interest in abortion. 5% of the population is gay and again a large number of Christians seem to care about it.

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[sootman]

> All women and most Christians have an interest in abortion.

My favorite old saying: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform!

[Penguinisto]

How are any of those niche issues?

Easy - let me walk you through the issues mentioned first:

Anyone who works has an interest in unions.

Outside of governmental employees, union participation has dropped over the years, is most likely single-digit, and is getting smaller (as a percentage) every year in the private sector. QED: niche issue.

 

All women and most Christians have an interest in abortion.

Unless the US Supreme Court overturns itself, or a new constitutional amendment is made (good luck with either), this issue is immutable insofar as the federal government is concerned. Why would someone try to promote 'defending' an activity that effectively cannot be banned thanks to Roe v. Wade? This in and of itself makes it a niche issue at best, since nothing can be done about it in any legal sense, and most people know that.

5% of the population is gay and again a large number of Christians seem to care about it.

Five percent is niche (assuming the percentage is true - I honestly do not know). What "a large number of Christians" think or do not think is irrelevant, since Obama wasn't trying to attract them - and "a large number" is a bit too vague to refute the fact that yes, this is a niche issue (and one that is being handled on a state-by-state basis, I might add).

--

Overall, it just seemed like so much hand-waving, expressly designed to distract from the much more immediate and larger problems of economy and geopolitics.
Given that these larger problems will make themselves more manifest until they simply cannot be ignored any longer, and coupled with pleasing all the niche issue voters, I sincerely doubt that Obama is going to bother wasting time (let alone political capital) on patent reform.

Patents work!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see all sorts of innovation coming out because of this... /wrists

Per an Ars comment

[arekin]

"Design patents are extremely narrow - you have to do your level best to copy them exactly in order to be found in infringement. Plus, they specifically cannot cover functionality - that has to be covered by a utility patent, if it's going to be protected. This design patent only protects a "portable display device" (that's the wording in the Patent itself), and only one with those specific design elements that are shown in the Patent Figures."

With this being the case I would imagine that you shouldn't see a lot of battles about this design patent unless someone is deliberately making counterfeit iPads (and by shouldn't I mean "but probably will").

Re:Per an Ars comment

[Anonymous Coward]

And queue up round 2 of Apple vs Samsung Galaxy Tab!

Re:Per an Ars comment

[MozeeToby]

Did you notice though, that the only part of the drawing that wasn't dotted lines was the shape? The speaker, the button, the I/O ports, even the depth were drawn in dotted lines, meaning those features weren't part of what was being patented. The only thing patented by the new patent was the basic shape of the top surface of the device. Once you consider that screen aspect ratio is going to dictate device ratio, and the fact that no one wants a 90 degree corner jabbing them in the thigh, you're pretty well guaranteed to be infringing if you make a tablet in that size range.

Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[SternisheFan]

Computerworld reports difficulty with Sharp screens...

http://blogs.computerworld.com/smartphones/21291/appless-foxconnsharp-iphone-supply-problem-hints-bigger-problems?mm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnews%2Furl%3Fsr%3D1%26ct2%3Dus%252F1_0_s_4_1_a%26sa%3Dt%26usg%3DAFQjCNGqf2gr494dICZZt4VZC-RZas5i8A%26cid%3D52778023275786%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fblogs.computerworld.com%252Fsmartphones%252F21291%252Fappless-foxconnsharp-iphone-supply-problem-hints-bigger-problems%26ei%3DG8eaUPDUHZTUtwfxeQ%26sig2%3DOF6X4c_AQfrJ61Q874PANQ%26rt%3DHOMEPAGE%26vm%3DSTANDARD%26bvm%3Dsection%26twa%3Df%26did%3D6835041860395839870%26sid%3Daf1b2b414f7c7d35

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[Anonymous Coward]

Say what you like about market share, but it doesn’t appear there’s any dimming in demand for Apple's [AAPL] brand-new iPhone 5, with manufacturer Foxconn admitting it’s having a tough time meeting global demand for the world’s best smartphone.

Fuck that guy. Here's a much shorter and far less douchey summary.

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[Applekid]

I'm curious, Apple's got enough cash and not paying dividends to buy up Sharp now, and probably on the cheap when they fold, so why wouldn't they let that happen? I'm sure they would like to get their panels at cost and liquidate the rest of Sharp.

Are there any business majors in the house?

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[Anonymous Coward]

Computerworld reports difficulty with Sharp screens...

Well duh. That's why Apple patented rounded corners.

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[Tough Love]

You don't need to be a business major to see that a high margin business buying up a low margin business means lower margins. Never mind that Sharp doesn't make the best displays. But I'd love to see Tim Cook do this, to extend his string of blunders.

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[drinkypoo]

Man, Sharp makes great displays. I had a 32" and it stunk like solvent which was a massive failure, but it was so fantastic I got rid of it and got a 52". What do you have against Sharp?

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[Tough Love]

You're probably right about that, Sharp TVs have a good rep though I never bought one because there always seemed to be a better deal around (LG last time). It seems Sharp's difficulties are on the production side. A one-two whammy with higher production costs than the Korean competition and a plummeting TV market. So let's revise this comment: how much sense does it make to buy a flat panel manufacturer that isn't competitive?

However you slice it, Apple burning its bridges with Samsung is one of the more dubious of Apple's recent string of dubious business decisions.

Re:Apple's also has a supply dilemma

[JDG1980]

I'm curious, Apple's got enough cash and not paying dividends to buy up Sharp now, and probably on the cheap when they fold, so why wouldn't they let that happen? I'm sure they would like to get their panels at cost and liquidate the rest of Sharp.

Japan tends to be a fairly nationalist country, and they believe in lifetime employment. I don't think the Japanese government would be very happy with a US company buying a large Japanese conglomerate and laying off most of its employees just to get the one part it wants to keep.

not quite

[poetmatt]

live by the sword, die by the sword.

Patent trolls suck, but apple has no defense against being victimized for it when they're trying to do the exact same thing. In fact, apple is worse because they have billions of dollars to shut down entire companies with. A troll does not.

Re:not quite

[gstoddart]

Of course, the problem is that pretty much every major company has to get involved in patent lawsuits.

Microsoft has been in and out of litigation for decades. Motorolla is in there playing.

I'm pretty sure if you started a new company to make a product, you wouldn't get anywhere in a lot of cases, because you'd be sued as soon as you started making any money.

It's hard not to see this as general stupidity of the whole system -- and I no longer care if they're supposed to be the good guys or the bad guys. They all do it, and it mostly just serves to divert a lot of time and money to lawyers on either side.

I'm quite certain I've seen stuff that's now patented that we discussed when I was in university, and other things we all were thinking "wouldn't it be cool if".

The entire patent system seems like a horrible joke these days, and unless you've got vast amounts of money to play this losing game.

This discussion over if Apple deserves this or not is irrelevant (mostly because it's about how people feel about the company) -- instead we should be focusing on why the patent system is granting patents for ideas, or for things which other people have already done for years.

Re:not quite

[oh_my_080980980]

I believe the word you are looking for is extortion. VirnetX is trying to extort money from Apple, Cisco Systems, Astra Technologies, and NEC Corporation....they are in no way trying to stop Apple from making products, nor is Apple.

This company would still be suing Apple, if Apple decided not to sue Samsung.

Moron.

Re:not quite

[poetmatt]

Of course, the problem is that pretty much every major company has to get involved in patent lawsuits.

No, they don't. It's a perception, which has been proven wrong by courts almost continually, if people read what courts actually say.

Whether it's potentially lucrative in the short term only? Yes. Have courts basically disallowed it in general? Also yes.

I'm staying out of development when it comes to technology because I know any ideas I have will make me be sued off my ass before I can even start a business.

Re:not quite

[tepples]

they are in no way trying to stop Apple from making products

If the sum of the royalties due to all the different patent holders exceeds the difference between wholesale and cost of goods sold, then yes, they are trying to stop Apple from making products.

Re:not quite

[Applekid]

Apple isn't competing on price, and arguably never have. If the costs were raised $XX per unit to cover some license, they'd pass it along, and I don't think I'm being unrealistic in that most people in the market for an Apple device would not change their mind. While, yes, customers do like a deal and would grumble about paying more, but if Apple customers were shopping on price, they would have turned towards more commodity-priced hardware alternatives.

Re:not quite

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree: innovation fail. America Invents indeed.

Re:not quite

[elashish14]

Name one lawsuit that has been initiated by Google?

Re:not quite

[Princeofcups]

live by the sword, die by the sword.

Patent trolls suck, but apple has no defense against being victimized for it when they're trying to do the exact same thing. In fact, apple is worse because they have billions of dollars to shut down entire companies with. A troll does not.

I can't name one company that Apple shut down due to patent trolling. Can you?

Re:not quite

[chrismcb]

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/08/19/man-bites-dog-google-sues-apple-for-patent-infringement/

Re:not quite

[Anonymous Coward]

>In fact, apple is worse because they have billions

Look, i've really grown to despise Apple over their recent antics, but they are NOT WORSE. They are just as bad.

Having money does not make someone bad, nor does it make them good.

Re:not quite

[poetmatt]

still waiting for an example of something that's not a response to getting sued by someone else. As in - google actually doing patent shakedowns, etc.

Google count = 0.

With apple, MS, oracle? There are plenty.

Re:not quite

[poetmatt]

how you use the money matters - in apple's case, using it to shut down competition (antitrust) is worse than extortion. Even in the cases of extortion companies can still survive.

Your plan for reform.

[Anonymous Coward]

All patents older than 20 years should be eliminated along with the office, and a new agency put in place with sane rules to review the rest (invalidating many of them) and new ones going forward.

Currently patents have a life of 20 years for those who are reading this and don't know.

As far as the parent: I agree. BUT how to select folks who will follow the "plan"? And guidelines?

Fire all the patent examiners and fill the place with whom? Us Slashdot guys? *oy!* Pharma?! *double oy*

Who then?!

Definitely NOT me! I am the most unqualified person to review these things.

Re:Your plan for reform.

[TFAFalcon]

Require the patent holder to swear an oath that there is no prior art and that the patent is valid when registering the patent. Then if it is invalidated, imprison him.
That should cut down on the number of applications.

VirnetX is a real company

[alen]

look it up, they have a few patents part of the LTE- Advanced spec where all voice will be data. their part of the patent pool is security for SIP

Re:VirnetX is a real company

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it does seem to be a legitimate company with some history in non-consumer industries. The patents also seem to be in the name of the technical director, so its probably not fair to try to tag them as patent trolls. This could turn out to be a real problem for Apple unless they can get the patent(s) invalidated ... which I presume is something that M$ tried or at least considered. Of course the claim that the apple engineers didn't look into patents is just a bs argument to avoid triple damages. As long as they don't get called out on that, good luck to them. It could get interesting.

So I wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Does VirnetX actually do something useful too as a company?

Re:So I wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

They invent shit; and convince others to use it.

They are like; an inventor; that doesn't bother making things - just publishes to others how to do it; and lets them pay for the privelidge.

They are the "small time inventor" that gets a "big time parter" that you americans fucking love.

Just because they invented facetime (or some components there-of) and didn't make a facetime device; doesn't make them a troll. it makes them a fucking inventor.

Legal Depo?

[Murdoch5]

What is the point of a legal department if patents keep getting violated. I don't care what the formal role of the legal department is but if I'm going to work on a new project for a company they better make sure it's not going to violate a patent first, other wise I don't need them.

so sorry but...

[CosaNostra Pizza Inc]

Sorry but I just don't feel any pity for Apple at all...not after the $1Billion law suit they brought against Samsung for patents on trivial things like rounded corners and icon grids. What goes around, comes around.

No matter who won

[gmuslera]

What matters is that we all lost.

Please stop calling "design patents" "patents".

[John Hasler]

They are really more a kind of trademark registration. They deal only with appearance and never with utility.

Re:Please stop calling "design patents" "patents".

[wienerschnizzel]

No. Don't stop calling them 'patents'. Because this one has 'brought to you by a patent lawyer' written all over it! It's as broad and vague in the scope as it can be. Look at the picture in TFA - the patent claims that the protected features on a 'portable display device' are the ones outlined by the unbroken line - and there's only one. It doesn't even mention proportions. Apple could claim infringement on any display device with a flat surface and rounded rectangular shape of any proportions.

If you look at traditional trademarked or patented design - say the coke bottle or the x-box - the designers went out of their way to create a unique shape. The author of this patent went out of his way to create a generic shape. The fact that it 'only applies to appearance' only makes it worse!

Re:Please stop calling "design patents" "patents".

[Theaetetus]

No. Don't stop calling them 'patents'. Because this one has 'brought to you by a patent lawyer' written all over it! It's as broad and vague in the scope as it can be.

Just because you don't understand design patents doesn't mean they're broad in scope or vague. For example, you note:

It doesn't even mention proportions.

... which implies that you believe that they should have mentioned specific lengths and widths. But, see 37 CFR 1.153: "No description, other than a reference to the drawing, is ordinarily required."

That's not necessary with a design patent. Rather, the proportions are the ones shown in a figure. Break out a ruler and a calculator, and that ratio is the proportion claimed. Deviate substantially, and you don't infringe. What's substantially? Enough that an ordinary observer wouldn't confuse the infringing product and the claimed design. So while 4:3.01 wouldn't cut it, 16:9 may, and 2.40:1 definitely would.

If you look at traditional trademarked or patented design - say the coke bottle or the x-box - the designers went out of their way to create a unique shape. The author of this patent went out of his way to create a generic shape. The fact that it 'only applies to appearance' only makes it worse!

If it were generic, then you could point to other examples of the same shape as shown in all 8 figures, right? And bear in mind that something like D562285 doesn't show the same shape, and was even cited as being different.

Ahah

[M0j0_j0j0]

In your FACE!!

rounded rectangle

[zeroryoko1974]

Has there not been a television or lcd monitor before with rounded corners? How could they get a patent for that

Ironic that the patent claim has gfx in Quicktime

[Anonymous Coward]

Didnr realize that QUicktime Format for graphics was acceptible. THis is getting about as ugly as Steve Jobs iYacht.

Open-source Facetime

[SeaFox]

Suddenly, it's becoming more clear why Apple did not, as they promised, release the information needed about the protocol to make third-party Facetime clients possible.

They didn't truly own the rights to the methods for the connection.

Re:Open-source Facetime

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a coherent explanation anywhere of the "invention"? Their marketing fluff talks about secure-dns-vpns or some such nonsense, but none of the Facetime protocol analyses I've read found anything DNS or VPN related.

(Even the "demo" video on their website only had some handwaving b.s. about automatic-secure-dns-vpns and their multi-billion dollar licensing potential.)

Royalty as a percentage of wholesale

[tepples]

If the costs were raised $XX per unit to cover some license, they'd pass it along

Unless the royalties are a percentage of a product's wholesale price. If enough patent holders come out of the proverbial woodwork to bid up the royalty total to 90 percent of wholesale, it'll be kind of hard to pass along a tenfold price increase.

Obvious to one skilled in the art

[Anonymous Coward]

This is ridiculous. The fact that the Apple engineers developed FaceTime without looking at any patents should be proof that the patents do not reflect anything patentable. If another engineer independently invents the same technique, it clearly demonstrates that the invention is not non-obvious.

The patent holder should be required to demonstrate how these patents are not obvious to one skilled in the art, with the presumption being that separate invention invalidates the patent.

Re:Obvious to one skilled in the art

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because two smart people invent the same thing, does not mean that an invention is non-obvious. It means the invention is likely the best way to solve a particular problem.
Just because a problem has a "best way" to solve it; doesn't mean it is unpatentable. Look at the Carmack reverse, from Doom3 fame. Really good way of solving a particular problem; turns out; Carmack invented it completely independently of Creative. Does that mean it is obvious?

What? No apology?

[abirdman]

380 million is nothing to Apple. At least they weren't forced to apologize again. Mea culpa!

Re:What? No apology?

[ImprovOmega]

They aimed too high as it is. $380 million will buy a *lot* of lawyer time for appeals and suchlike. If it was $10-$20 million it might not be worth Apple's time, but $380 million assures *years* of appeals.

FTC to sue Google

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, FTC staff have formally advised the government to sue Google for anti-trust violations in its licensing of FRAND-patented technology.

Re:FTC to sue Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, no.

A rounded rectangle?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose there's never been one of those! How brilliant!! How could I have ever lived without the round awesomeness that surrounds every textbox including the one i'm writing in right now??

Re:A rounded rectangle?

[Tablizer]

It's when a square dude eats too many fries.

All of you are retards.

[Anonymous Coward]

You bitch and complain about patent trolls. You treat them like roaches that need to be stomped out. You rant and rave everytime someone mentions patent troll and jump on a bandwagon to mindlessly argue about them.

Even amazon is guilty of it. They started bitching when they got charged during a patent suit. But they didnt complain about it till they had to pay up because they knew there is no such thing as a patent troll but once they got hit then suddenly they say they are bad.

Patent trolls own the patents but they arent making money on it. So say someone puts a patent on something yet they are trying to gather resources to use it, maybe they are trying to sell it to someone else, maybe they just had a great idea but no immediate use for it and stashing it away till they can use it, or something else like that. But if that person sues someone else for stealing their patent then the internet (including you) starts bad mouthing them and calling them patent trolls when you have absolutely NO idea what is really going on.

So shut the fuck up about patent trolls. You dont know what your complaining about and youre blaming someone for suing for something they own the patent to? Are you fucking stupid?

If a person owns the patent and sues someone else for using it then whos fault is that? Oh thats right, its the person who stole the patent and NOT the person doing the suing. But you all love to use buzz words and jump on the train of the current trendy thing to complain about with no thought dont you?

Re:All of you are retards.

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of the hate against patent trolls around here is conflated with the hate against patents in general and software patents in particular. The idea that your company has to pay for the right to use software you have personally developed from first principles, just because someone else did something vaguely similar (with similarity measured in patent-lawyerese) before, is abhorrent to software developers.

The idea of patents is that patents is supposed to be that legal protection serves as an incentive for inventors to publish their inventions, so that society benefits from the publication of new ideas and the inventor benefits financially from the legal protection. Let me tell you that absolutely no technical person in the software field follows new patents in order to find out new inventions - and why would they, patents are written in legalese by patent lawyers for patent lawyers. In reality new software is developed in order to solve real customer problems and the financial incentive is provided by the market. The patent publication process is worthless except for enriching patent lawyers and providing managers an opportunity to shut down competitors in the courts instead of on the market.

I need QuickTime to view the patent diagrams?

[Impish]

To view the Apple patent diagrams on the US patent site my browser informs me I need to run Apple Quicktime? Why isn't the patent office using PNG images?

Re:I need QuickTime to view the patent diagrams?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're TIFFs. Blame whatever backwards-ass mess left your computer without the ability to view TIFFs in the browser, not Apple for filling the void for them. You don't need Quicktime unless that's the only thing installed on your system with a browser plugin that supports the image.

Re:I need QuickTime to view the patent diagrams?

[Techman83]

It's just the horrible way it was built, they are just tiffs and you can get them manually. However there are a couple of plugins that solve the problem. Firefox Addon and Chrome Addon

Re: Robin Hood ?

[epSos-de]

The Patent Troll is the Robin Hood in this case. Apple is not a friendly business. Microsoft is far from being it too. I wish the EFF would make up trivial stuff and patent it for suing evil corporations later on. So that they could give the monis back to the developers.

Apple Can't Innovate!

[Anonymous Coward]

A post on CNET and MarketWatch from different perspectives give the correlational conclusion.

Investors (humans and programs) spotted this in September 2012 and the stock price of AAPL
is down. Both indicated a continuing fall of the AAPL price/share.

And it is true.

The iMac was innovation.

The iPod was innovation.

The iPhone was innovation.

The iPad was innovation.

So there has been NO innovation after the iPad!

iPad Mini?

NO!

Just a tweak of the form-factor.

NOT INNOVATION!

As with all the tweaks to the iMac, iPod and iPhone.

So, what are we left with?

What is the next i[...] ... please fill in the blank people because Apple Can't!

XD

Apple aint go nobody to save it this time.

Recommendation.

Sell AAPL pronto!

If you don't you may end up holding a stock that is priced at $5.00/share.

WOOOOO!

Back to the 'Old Days' of AAPL price/share.

8(

Those bastards in Texas again

[JDG1980]

From the article:

The fruity firm was on the hook for as much as $900m, but a jury awarded a lower payout during a Texas court hearing yesterday evening, according to VirnetX's lawyers McKool Smith.

So once again this is the yahoos in the Eastern District of Texas imposing their draconian views on the whole country. Is Apple based in Texas? Is VirnetX? No. (They're based in Nevada, according to their website.) So why the hell was this trial held in Texas? Because the bastards know that by forum-shopping they can find juries full of ignorant hicks who always vote for the plaintiff.

Rounded Rectangle Opportunity

[Tablizer]

I'll make billions selling pointy corners to Samsung and Google to avoid royalty fees.

Damn, Doritos beat me to filing. Never mind.

As much as I dislike Apple

[ikaruga]

and as much as I know Apple would be doing the same thing against everybody else if they had those patents, I can't help but to fell for their loss this time. Apple didn't lose. With the exception of the lawyers, we all lost.

Which was a response to Apple.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ergo, not initiated.

"Oh, don't punch that bully for kicking you! That's starting the punching and therefore you're a bad person!".

It doesn't give the size

[Anonymous Coward]

Just an illustration of "the sort of use it will be put to".

No size or actual cartography is in the patent AT ALL.

So even if it's Nano sized, you'd still be "infinging".

Enough is enough already

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not all bad news for Apple today, though — according to Ars, they've won a new patent for a rounded rectangle (D670,286).

Come on, enough is enough. You should not be allowed to patent geometric shapes, especially when there is tons of prior art of electronic devices already using it for decades. Apple needs to be heavily fined for even submitting such a thing, and the patent examiner who approved it needs to go to prison for issuing an obviously invalid patent.

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