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How Free Speech Died On Campus

theodp writes "The WSJ catches up with FIRE's Greg Lukianoff and his crusade to expose how universities have become the most authoritarian institutions in America. In Unlearning Liberty, Lukianoff notes that baby-boom Americans who remember the student protests of the 1960s tend to assume that U.S. colleges are still some of the freest places on earth. But that idealized university no longer exists. Today, university bureaucrats suppress debate with anti-harassment policies that function as de facto speech codes. FIRE maintains a database of such policies on its website. What they share, lifelong Democrat Lukianoff says, is a view of 'harassment' so broad and so removed from its legal definition that 'literally every student on campus is already guilty.'"

102 of 530 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This guy is advocating racism and sexual harassment! Shall we defeat him, PC gang?

    1. Re:Yeah! by kenj0418 · · Score: 4, Funny

      In fact, the greatest damage moderates and left-wing could do to the right wing extremists is to invite them to freely speak their minds. The resulting spew of homophobic, sexist, and racist non-sequiturs would likely shift most people just a bit to the left.

      And somewhere in suburban Missouri, Todd Akin gets as the strange feeling that someone on slashdot is talking about him.

    2. Re:Yeah! by Toonol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have many views that you would probably label as right-wing and extreme, and yet I'm not the slightest bit sexist, racist, or homophobic. Will that truth affect your gross caricaturizations in the future? Probably not.

    3. Re:Yeah! by sg_oneill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In fact, the greatest damage moderates and left-wing could do to the right wing extremists is to invite them to freely speak their minds. The resulting spew of homophobic, sexist, and racist non-sequiturs would likely shift most people just a bit to the left.

      The problem with this view is that its logical, but it also doesn't really work like that. Humans have awful psychology when it comes to political views and crowds. If you have a large group of people chanting racists slogans, very quickly people around them , onlookers, can find themselves chanting along, and believing those slogans and not asking themselves why. The cronulla riot in australia left many people who had joined in the racist violent asking themselves "What the hell did I just do? I dont understand it? I was just in cronulla for shopping and next thing I'm in a crowd of people bashing lebanese shopkeepers". The inverse of this is the "spiral of silence" effect where once a view becomes popular, everyone starts changing their view to the popular one because its popular, and the less popular view becomes more and more rare and dangerous to express.

      Finally there is a large part of the population that research shows find themselves attracted to angry conservative type opinions and actually become MORE attracted to the opinion when evidence of its incorrectness is presented. Witness the absolute insanity of the anti gay-marriage league, or the "teach creationism in schools" league. It seems the more evidence as to why these guys are loons is presented to them, the more it convinces them that evolution/climate-change/drug-reform/gay-marriage/etc is some sort of evil communist plot.

      There are so many sociological factors involved with why people adopt political positions that are not at all related to rationality or free/open speech.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    4. Re:Yeah! by sjames · · Score: 2

      We can only hope the people involved in cronulla will become less likely to be fooled again now that they have been driven to introspection.

      The other cases will tune in to wingnut radio anyway no matter what we do. Blocking them from hearing it will, by your argument, cement them even firmer still in their crazy position.

      I understand your concerns, but I don't see suppression of free speech as being at all helpful. It is, however, quite the slippery slope.

    5. Re:Yeah! by samoanbiscuit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe you should go back to grade school and learn the meanings of words like "tolerance" and "silencing". My assertion is that there is are reasons why blacks, gays and women are not voting for conservative candidates, and these reasons are not attached to any sort of "librul media propaganda". Maybe they think being treated like full human beings is worth more than getting tax cuts for rich people?

      Also, given the results of the election, it would seem these "minorities" aren't so "minor" after all. Maybe the GOP planners and leaders will realize there are more human beings in the USA than just the white straight male ones.

    6. Re:Yeah! by Quakeulf · · Score: 2

      If you, or anyone, think this has anything to do with "left" or "right" you are perhaps a bit too naive to be discussing this. This has to do with simple human power grabbing and using that power to stay on top regardless of considerations for you and me. Be it the left or the right it is all a means to power to control what you will say and do, and those in charge they love it, just like the stereotypical Bond-villain. Politicians are sadly no different, using their charisma to get their points across rather than pointing to results, which is really not the way it should be.

    7. Re:Yeah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... angry conservative type opinions ... evidence of its incorrectness ...

      got bias much?

    8. Re:Yeah! by samoanbiscuit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How about I name a few names for you: Todd Akin, Michelle Bachmann, Rick Santorum... A quick google search of some of their quotes will tell you immediately why women and gays vote for any party they are not a part of. Being treated like a human being should be something everyone can expect from a politician they're going to vote for. Blacks have voted democrat for ages, it's not a new development due to Obama being on the ticket. And Mitt "flip flop" Romney and his "wait till I get elected, I'll tell you my plans then" sell just didn't move many people who might have voted red. Better the devil you know and all that jazz.

  2. Wow, don't have opinions online.. by slashkitty · · Score: 5, Informative

    Norfolk State: "The policy broadly prohibits using any university internet technology resources "to further personal views" or "religious or political causes." It also prohibits downloading or transmitting "inappropriate messages or images," without defining "inappropriate."

    --
    -- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
    1. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That was a major issue at my University, StFX.

      The entire "community code" was so vague, you were in violation of something at any given time. They put fines on student accounts for violations, and don't release transcripts unless they're paid.

    2. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by DavidClarkeHR · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Norfolk State: "The policy broadly prohibits using any university internet technology resources "to further personal views" or "religious or political causes." It also prohibits downloading or transmitting "inappropriate messages or images," without defining "inappropriate."

      Unfortunately, most universities don't have an explicit policy in place. If you're an undergraduate, rather than tell you they don't want opposing viewpoints, they'll just graduate you quickly with average marks. But if you're a graduate student? Your advisory commity will they'll revoke your funding (after the first year), your review committee will slow-walk your research, your lab-coordinator will have difficulty finding you space to work and - if you're lucky - you'll be forced to write massive changes into your thesis before you graduate. If you're not lucky? That's 3-5 years of study with no degree.

      Graduate studies costs 4-5x more than undergrad studies, and carry a stigma of "Well, you couldn't cut it there, why would we accept you here?".

      --
      - Nec Impar Pluribus, or so I'm told.
    3. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by RobertLTux · · Score: 5, Insightful

      so if you are using your personal computing device you need to go off campus to post your opinions??

      also btw you are using the normal WRONG reading of the first amendment.

      this should not be used to force me to be atheist.

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    4. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Any "university" or "college" that can't tolerate non-PC opinions isn't a college at all. Instead, it's an indoctrination center. Which, apparently, is fine with you, as you support the goals of the indoctrination.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    5. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Poor analogy. The students are paying customers, who have the right to free speech. These universities might as well publish the fact that they require their students to be politically correct, or they are unwanted on campus.

      Christian Bible colleges basically do that. If you're an atheist, a muslim, or maybe a wicca, Bob Jones University doesn't really want you studying on their campus.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    6. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by durrr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stop promoting your personal view on slashdot and start commenting on your own site.
      Hypocrite douchebag.

    7. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I suspect that runs afoul of contract law.

    8. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Taxpayer funded" means almost nothing in this context. Many, even most, students are "paying customers" who have the right to use the resources for which they are paying.

      Neither the university, nor the public, has the right to curtail those rights by claiming that the internet belongs to them. In fact, they only own a few pieces of gear that interface with the internet.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    9. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 2

      Any "university" or "college" that can't tolerate non-PC opinions isn't a college at all.

      The policy we're talking about isn't about "tolerating" opinion, it is about using taxpayer funded resources to promote and advertise those opinions. That is not OK.

      In class, you should be able speak your mind in whatever PC or non-PC way you like.

      Actually, it is okay, up to a point. Constitutional Law has rules about what you're allowed to do at a limited public forum. And about what you're allowed to do in a fully public forum, like a sidewalk. Sidewalks are also taxpayer funded resources, but they still enjoy constitutional protection. The same goes for a plaza or public park, like Boston Common. There are limit on free speech that apply even in those places, but the rule isn't a cut-and-dried taxpayer funding issue.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    10. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Your advisory commity will they'll revoke your funding (after the first year), your review committee will slow-walk your research, your lab-coordinator will have difficulty finding you space to work and - if you're lucky - you'll be forced to write massive changes into your thesis before you graduate. If you're not lucky? That's 3-5 years of study with no degree.

      This is true, I've seen this. But usually it's not because you are in the wrong party. In the cases I've seen, it's been some kind of weird personal vendetta.

      In one case I knew a physics student failed his oral exams because he was too confident. In another case, for a music degree, a professor didn't like the student because he didn't take enough notes in his class. The student complained to other professors, and the answer he got was, "Yeah, it's not fair, but we have to live and work with him, we don't have to deal with you, so we're not going to do anything about it."

      It's a lousy system, and it's as if professors feel they need to fail somebody, and if there isn't anyone bad enough to fail, they'll find some other reason to fail them.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Tax payers pay for a large part of these universities, that's what makes them public universities. If you don't like the restrictions that come with that, attend a fully privately funded university; there are enough of them around, and they can adopt whatever policies they like.

    12. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 4, Funny

      Slashdot is private; if the people who pay for it don't like what I post, they can ban me and I have no problem with that.

    13. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Teancum · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Note that the 1st amendment also says that the government can't prohibit the free exercise of religion either, including its expression through speech and the press. There is a world of difference between a student or ordinary citizen expressing themselves in a voluntary manner (aka offering a prayer right before a test on their own or holding a prayer vigil on Christmas Eve in a public area... even on public property) as opposed to having the government mandate that you must pray to a certain god or have tithing extracted from your paycheck as a tax.

      I don't have a problem with a student setting up a web page expressing their religious opinions using government funds... as long as you offer that same opportunity to all of the students on a reasonable basis to express whatever their opinion is including having no opinion or even being against organized religions in general. The problem is the censorship, and this attitude that religious expression is something that should be feared.

      I think it would even be healthy to have a "debate corner" on a college campus where any student could express any political opinion they may have... including "hate speech" full of bigotry, sexism, and racism. If you think some sort of speech should be censored, you definitely don't understand the purpose or the philosophy behind the 1st amendment and why it was ratified in the first place. Suggesting that university websites, dorm doors, or even bulletin boards should be off limits to religious expression completely misses the mark... especially at a public school. Private schools have a little more latitude to ban some forms of speech as there is a contractual relationship to even attend. It definitely shouldn't be the other way around.

    14. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by VAElynx · · Score: 2

      Wrong
      I'm all for banning someone from presenting their own views as institutional views. However, using university facilities to present their views is something completely different.
      Your analogy works on that - someone making death threats from your phone is a problem because you, not him will be the one to get in trouble for the illegal act. A better example would be someone running public phone booths (you pay for college, after all) and basically stating the list of allowed conversation topic to take place while using his phones.

    15. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Sir_Sri · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's a lousy system, and it's as if professors feel they need to fail somebody, and if there isn't anyone bad enough to fail, they'll find some other reason to fail them.

      I had a prof who said 'I know what it takes to be a real physicist, and none of you have it' and failed the entire class.

      We were all asked to leave after appealing.

      Professors are high level employees, even though they seem relatively low in the university hierarchy they have a lot of independent authority and judgment, and the entire system is setup around professors being both professionally and ethically responsible to their discipline as a whole. If they don't think you've demonstrated the right behaviour they can be rid of you as a drain on that community, and as someone who would tarnish the universities reputation. The upshot of this is that professors can break all sorts of soft rules to get whomever they want as grad student, pay them past funding periods, run labs the way they want, run their own IT etc. But it also means the occasional asshole has quite a lot of authority to make your life miserable, and well, every department has at least one prof you just don't want to go near.

      I'm in Comp sci, and we have a prof who repeatedly insists (via e-mail) that we should cut off internet access to the department. The last place I was had a professor who's entire workload was teaching 2 courses (no committees, no research), and he liked to teach courses on whatever was 'cool' (as defined by his teenage daughter I guess), even if this had nothing to do with the broader programme goals. Getting rid of a tenured professor is really really hard, it's expensive, and usually they don't go completely crazy until they're towards the end of their careers, so you don't want to fire someone with health problems etc. There's a huge legal expense, and bad press. And students sometimes love the crazy ones because they are certainly interesting.

    16. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by jhoegl · · Score: 2

      Also, they cant use Taxpayer subsidized internet lines. They must install their own lines to the server to connect to it and then post.
      What? People forget that the internet was subsidized through taxes?
      In fact, all of the inventions we enjoy were either publicly researched or subsidized through taxes. Get your head out of your ass people.

    17. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by gtall · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yep, but it is worse than that. Universities these days want to hire young stars that will essentially bring in enough money to pay their own salary and keep a phalanx of students. This makes the department look like they are on the cusp of whatever passes for research in their area.

      The emphasis is on "young" too. Age discrimination starts early in academia. If you aren't a star by 35, good luck. And if you get rejected for tenure at one place, expect the same at the next. Many professors only get to their really good research until their 50s when they've acquired a lot of experience and depth of thought.

      I wish I had a fix for this system, but I don't. Every time I think of something, I can argue why it wouldn't work or even make things worse. There does need to be some sort of oversight. But professors won't agree to any oversight unless it is by their peers...who probably find nothing wrong with any professors behavior.

    18. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Larryish · · Score: 2

      ... occasional asshat professors can get away with...

      ... having both ankles smashed with a ball-peen hammer, in a dark place with no witnesses, by someone wearing nondescript clothes, gloves, and a ski mask?

    19. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Professors are hired on their ability to do research. Most professors spend 39 hours a week doing teaching, administrative duties at the university, applying for grants and service to the field (peer review, organizing conferences, etc.). So when do they do their research? Well, they find time for research by working more than 39 hours a week. If you think about that for a moment, you will realize that most professors do research exclusively in their free time, yet their research ability is what they were hired for. There are only two positions that sometimes actually are research positions at universities: PhD student and postdoc. Also, there are far more postdoc positions than there are professor positions. So you end up with a rarefied group of people who were selected for research ability, luck and ruthlessness in pursuing their goals, and then you task them to a job's capacity with administration and teaching without much oversight. I don't know how anyone can think that the result of that should be good for research, for students or for professors.

    20. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by shentino · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Nice thing about laws that make everyone guilty is that you get to selectively prosecute those you don't like.

    21. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by timeOday · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Well, it is certainly easier to find a career in computer science than physics. CS is great because there is such a wide and forgiving spectrum of success - you could earn tenure at a prestigious university and then perhaps get hired into a top corporate research group for big bucks; you could end up at the other end of the scale doing boring business programming, but still make a decent living; or (most likely) somewhere in between, doing technical development on reasonably interesting projects at a big company, or carrying a heavy teaching load.

      In physics, it seems to me there is very little in the way of consolation prizes, at least within the field. (But in the end they always seem to do well enough outside their own field).

    22. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by nbauman · · Score: 2

      Not so crazy. Google "Dance Your PhD".

    23. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Mr.CRC · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't that the whole point?

    24. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      In any decent university there is an academic appeals committee where, if the professor isn't abiding by the terms laid out in the course syllabus, the professor's evaluation can be overruled. Furthermore, consideration of such cases often involves independent evaluation of student work. In my experience, if a student really is being treated unfairly, the situation usually gets corrected. I've sat on such a committee. It usually went 40:60 student versus prof's stories. I've evaluated plenty of examples where students thought they were being treated unfairly, but actually they were not.

      The key in both situations is not to base it on "They don't like me", but "They said I'd be evaluated this way, and, here, take a look at this work for yourself and compare it to the rest of the class to see for yourself." The worst when sitting on that committee was hearing the student's story, then asking to see the work, and they've lost it or some other lame reason that may as well be equivalent to "the dog ate it". Well, I sympathize, but if it was that important and you were being shafted, you better keep that stuff or we can't help you.

      I've also helped a student at graduate level who really was being treated unfairly. As it started to turn sour I told them to meticiously document the time they spent on their work, perform outstandingly in all their course work, keep copies of their work, records of e-mail exchanges, everything. The idea was that if it did come to the point where they had to make a case to others, they could show to any impartial person what went wrong (and that it wasn't them). When the time came they found plenty of support from other faculty, because the evidence was kind of obvious.

      Profs can be unfair assholes, just like anyone else can, but on the whole most of them aren't. It's unpleasant and risky to deal with a situation like that as a student, because the prof is in a position of power. However, 9 times out of 10 the problem *is* with the student, and blaming the prof is just a convenient excuse. I know this, because I *strive* to be fair, yet I've heard all sorts of unjustified complaints. I don't mean the "prof is a hardass kind", but "prof said it would be X, but actually it was Y", even though I can go back to the syllabus and point at the part that does indeed say I'm expecting "X". Statistically, these aren't many cases anyway (most students are satisfied), but the ones that aren't, well, a lot of them are a bunch of whiners who want to blame everyone *else* for their problems. I've had people show up at my door at the end of term with a 49% saying "Oh, gee, Dr. X, can you please (arbitrarily) increase my mark by 1% so I can pass?" [Checks records. Student didn't do easy bonus point assignment X, Y, or Z, and lost 10% right there]. "Uh, no" == "Professor X is an unfair hardass" on Rate My Professor. Naturally, the the prof figures prominently when people get an F, not them, even if 90% of the class passed just fine. Go figure.

      For the other tenth, the legitimate complaints, students need to look out for themselves and realize that the other profs will support them if the evidence is clear enough. For graduate work, one of the reasons there's a committee rather than a single supervisor is to ensure that a student has someone knowledgeable to turn to if someone is being unreasonable. It can still go horribly wrong, and profs do have a lot of power, but there are checks-and-balances for a reason, and students need to avail themselves of those if they discover that their supervisor is an ass. It is going to be messy and it doesn't always turn out well, but I've seen enough examples to know that it often does turn out ok.

    25. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 2

      If you think some sort of speech should be censored, you definitely don't understand the purpose or the philosophy behind the 1st amendment and why it was ratified in the first place. Suggesting that university websites, dorm doors, or even bulletin boards should be off limits to religious expression completely misses the mark

      There is no censorship here. The NSU policy, a publicly funded university, prohibits "university internet technology resources to further personal views or religious or political causes." That is, it prohibits the use of public funds and the name of a governmental institution to promote religious or political agendas.

      There is no censorship because anybody is free to say whatever they want to, provided they pay for it themselves. Given that the cost of setting up a web site outside the university is zero, it is also clear that people who want to set up a private site on religion or politics at the university want to do so because they want it to appear to be associated with the university. Given that NSU is a public institution, that is exactly what the non-establishment clause is intended to prohibit.

      If NSU were a private university, it would have a choice. But in that case, the networks would be privately owned by the university, and it could choose to impose arbitrary restrictions on what you can and cannot post on its websites.

    26. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 2

      When you are speaking on a sidewalk, it is obvious to everybody that you are speaking as an individual who happens to be in a public place. Furthermore, that sidewalk is there for any taxpayer to walk on; that's what makes it a public sidewalk.

      The same does not apply to university computer resources. University computer networks are not "public", they are highly restricted in terms of who can get onto them. And when someone posts a page under a university domain name, the university's name and authority is associated with that page.

      If you want to use a physical analogy, if the university campus is open to the public, you and anybody else probably have the right to get up on a soapbox and speak. But you don't have the right to climb up on the university president's balcony and address a crowd.

    27. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      Actually, it's not in violation of the establishment clause. A violation would be it being required for some degree or attendance not relating to the rest of the courses. Religious schools can and do take public funding every day.

      As for the personal views, some people are somewhat locked into university resources when they pay to stay in the dorms or a frat house. Those people do not lose any rights when they do that.

    28. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by superwiz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ANY law is only as potent as the enforcement mechanism. How many students can afford to sue to enforce contract laws and start their careers with a law suit demanding the right to slur casually?

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    29. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 2

      So you don't want professors to make these decisions and you don't want administrators and bureaucrats to make them. I suppose you want tax payers to fund universities that are then run by students as they see fit?

    30. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by epyT-R · · Score: 2

      so that means one can only use the resource in accordance with the additive restrictions of 1/n tax payers.. basically any resources funded by the public are useless under this assumption because everyone is gonna have different and conflicting expectations of use.

    31. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      Nobody is forcing you to attend public university. If you don't like the rules and restrictions, you are perfectly free to leave. And, yes, using public funding to promote a religious cause is in violation of the establishment clause. When "religious schools" take public funding, it is generally for other purpose.

      Those rules and restrictions do not exist because of the US constitution or the establishment clause which is missing from the constitution. Those are claims you erroneously made. The US military has had a Chaplin in it and has offered/performed religious service since the inception. If what you say is true, the founders of the country as well as every entity that signed and ratified the US constitution must be willfully violating it. Or perhaps you are completely wrong.

      There is even an arguable point about the universities denying speech in the first place is a severe violation of the US constitution. The first amendment places restrictions on government entities denying speech too. It specifically spells out that it cannot deny religious freedom to anyone.

      Your argument simply does not hold water.

      Of course, we haven't enforced the non-establishment clause consistently in the past, but restrictions like those we are talking about here show that that is changing. You're welcome to try and sue your local public university to force them to let you put up a religious web site under their name. I predict you'll be laughed out of court.

      If the university allows students to put up websites under their name, then I could do that and win. However, I don't believe the rules outlined were about putting things up in the university's name. It was about using university internet resources which means campus wifi and internet delivered to the dorms. It is about using the campus computer lab and checking in on slashdot- which if you are commenting on this story because of it's political nature and personal views being expressed would put you in violation of it.

    32. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 2

      Nice thing about laws that make everyone guilty is that you get to selectively prosecute those you don't like.

      I think George Orwell came up with that a long time ago.

      Cheers,
      Dave

      --
      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
      Ben
    33. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by redlemming · · Score: 2

      In one case I knew a physics student failed his oral exams because he was too confident. In another case, for a music degree, a professor didn't like the student because he didn't take enough notes in his class. The student complained to other professors, and the answer he got was, "Yeah, it's not fair, but we have to live and work with him, we don't have to deal with you, so we're not going to do anything about it."

      I had a prof who said 'I know what it takes to be a real physicist, and none of you have it' and failed the entire class.

      We were all asked to leave after appealing.

      The rewards system in academia is set up to reward people for being good at research. Things like tenure, raises, titles, access to funding, and so forth all flow from this. It's called "publish or perish".

      All this means that if you actually want to be successful, you need to be good at research. In many cases, this means that you need to be able to get grants, which means spending a lot of time selling your research.

      Things are complicated by the 30% or so "tax" that the typical university applies to research funding, ostensively to support overhead associated with your research (typically these taxpayer dollars are laundered into the university budget to make it impossible to trace the manner in which the funds are actually being used). Thus, considerably MORE money is actually needed than is required to do the job.

      In some specialties, things are even worse, such as certain areas of medical research. Here, almost nobody gets tenure and the average professor doesn't even get PAID unless they get research grants: these people have to use their grants to pay their OWN salaries. Of course, this only happens in unimportant areas of research, such as infectious diseases.

      In short, the University system -- typically -- is set up to create huge conflicts of interest on the part of professors. As a result of these conflicts of interest, the skills of University professors at teaching or at interacting with people are often disappointing. After all, why bother to invest huge amounts of time at mastering difficult skills when those skills aren't strongly relevant to one's long term success?

      This results in situations like the ones described above, where professors do unethical and / or incompetent things because being ethical and competent isn't really part of success for them. Being able to create the illusion that one is ethical or competent often matters, but the substance doesn't. It's a lot like how the legal profession works.

      Having said this, and in spite of the system, about 20% of professors end up being really good teachers, so a large part of being a successful student (assuming one is motivated and disciplined) is finding the right instructors ...

    34. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 2

      those students are paying for the university networks with the university as the ISP ... But because it is a public institution I would dare say that unless the are simply denying any ability to create private personal communications using school computers, that they are constitutionally obligated to accept such expression of religious ideas.

      I don't see why; where do you see such a constitutional obligation? As long as their restrictions don't discriminate against specific religions or ideologies, those restrictions seem to be constitutional. The NSU policy does not discriminate, so it seems constitutional to me (it may have to clarify "inappropriate", most likely as "pornographic").

      Misrepresenting yourself as having the university endorsing or supporting a particular political cause or promoting a particular religion would be bad... but that is not what a student generated web page usually does.

      There are really two questions here. First, does the university have a right to impose restrictions; on that, see above. The second is whether it has an interest or even an obligation to impose such restrictions. I think it does, although that's obviously a harder argument to make. Many public universities are selective and reputable, so posting a statement like "Allah is great" or "God does not exist" on a site like berkeley.edu has a different weight and impact than posting it on myspace.com. In addition, many students are also instructors, making such an action potentially analogous to posting of the Ten Commandments by a teacher.

      Apart from that, I don't see how letting students use the university name to promote their personal religious or political views contributes to their education, which to me is the relevant question to ask as a tax payer. I think it's good for students to engage in political and social debate, but they don't need to publish those debates to the rest of the world under the university banner.

    35. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by kenorland · · Score: 2

      Restricting religious speech if any speech is allowed at all is a form of discrimination. That is where you are mistaken here.

      That obviously fails as a legal principle. For example, professors can kick you out of class and give you a failing grade if you start proselytizing in math lecture when called to do an integral.

      If you use AT&T as your ISP, who in their right mind thinks that just because you have att.com at the end of your e-mail address that you actually represent the company?

      AT&T is just an ISP. A university, on the other hand, has highly selective admissions and its name usually enjoys special esteem, and merely being at the university constitutes an endorsement. Posting on myspace.com and on berkeley.edu are intrinsically different. Using a domain name is analogous to using a letterhead, and it is reasonable for a university (and in some cases mandatory) to prohibit others from using its letterhead or logo for political or religious purposes.

      I'm for free speech on campus, but free speech on campus is largely a policy decision, not a constitutional right. People can't achieve more free speech if they start with the wrong arguments. And FIRE is wrong in claiming that there is an unprecedented level of authoritarianism.

    36. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online.. by Teancum · · Score: 2

      Restricting religious speech if any speech is allowed at all is a form of discrimination. That is where you are mistaken here.

      That obviously fails as a legal principle. For example, professors can kick you out of class and give you a failing grade if you start proselytizing in math lecture when called to do an integral.

      Not quite, what you are citing here is "disturbing the peace", a completely separate set of laws that have little if anything to do with free speech. If you are getting into somebody's face and doing something which is disruptive and preventing another person from being able to perform their work and to do the things they need to do in order to earn money by being a jackass, that justifiably needs to be punished.

      You are not getting kicked out of the lecture hall because you are preaching a religious message, but because you are interfering with the normal and expected discourse of the day. If you brought up stupid and silly discussions, playing some music, or even reading aloud Shakespeare and disrupting the class, you would be similarly escorted out of the building and cited with the applicable crimes for doing such nonsense.

      On the other hand, if the campus has some forum or situation where people are able to express themselves freely (like a letter to the editor in the student newspaper... to give an example), that is a free speech venue where expressing religious and political ideas is not only useful but required. That gets back to my point that a college campus, especially a public university operating under the laws and constitution of the United States of America, not only can't restrict what is done in public forums but must explicitly by the terms of the U.S. Constitution permit any sort of religious expression including proselytizing. If they want to restrict such expression, they must necessarily shut down any sort of free expression.

      When you are in a classroom, you are certainly not free to express yourself in any random manner, which is why your analogy is simply flawed.

      It may be possible that a university could restrict student web pages explicitly to classroom assignments or purely information items about the student. Arguably a university doesn't even need to provide server space for students to have a web page at all. If a university wants to avoid "hate speech" and students advocating religious viewpoints, they certainly could simply shut down student accounts altogether. My point is that many public universities are offering what amounts to be an ISP for the duration of when they are on campus where through their student registration fees are paying for some server space on campus computers for personal use. When that happens, it is no different than a commercial entity providing such services to the general public.

  3. Coporate Influence by qw(name) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's all because of greed. Universities have adopted corporate tactics to become and stay "more competitive in the marketplace" and that means shielding themselves from lawsuits and making themselves more appealing to donors.

    1. Re:Coporate Influence by brianerst · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please. It's because universities are overwhelmingly run by a single ideology (in this case, leftism, but in another time or universe, rightism). Combine a monoculture of 'correct' thought, a hypersensitivity to hurting any favored/traditionally disenfranchised group's feelings and (as you said) fear of lawsuits and the professional outrage club and you get these codes. The fact that university faculty are usually the strongest supporters of and agitators for these codes should be shocking, but sadly it isn't.

      Corporations generally don't care at all about what you say - they just want your money. It's really only the content industry (MP/RIAA) that wants to throttle speech - ISPs and other non-content groups have been fighting a losing battle against them for years. The internet is brought to you by corporations and for the most part all they care about is charging you for the delivery of bits - the default attitude of nearly all of them when the MP/RIAA started its little crusade was to ignore them or fight back against them. They've added DRM and the like grudgingly at best - it's a cost and a headache to them and pisses off their customers.

    2. Re:Coporate Influence by westlake · · Score: 2

      Universities have adopted corporate tactics to become and stay "more competitive in the marketplace" and that means shielding themselves from lawsuits and making themselves more appealing to donors.

      So, nothing new under the sun.

    3. Re:Coporate Influence by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Speaking of corporations, what the heck is up with the summary: "how universities have become the most authoritarian institutions in America"??

      Hmm... the MOST authoritarian institutions in America. A little hyperbole? I suppose it depends on how you define "institution." If you mean "institution" as in "institute" which often implies a research organization, the claim is probably trivially true, since universities are probably the most common independent research organizations in America.

      But that's a dumb reading. So if we interpret "institution" in the broader sense of an organization created for a particular purpose, how about... I don't know... the TSA, the military? They aren't "authoritarian" at all... [\sarcasm]

      Or, for that matter, most corporations that have at-will employees. How many places could you keep your job if you acted in your workplace like many college students act on college campuses?

      The article identifies a real issue, but colleges are now the MOST authoritarian organizations in the U.S.? Hardly.

    4. Re:Coporate Influence by CodeBuster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they're public universities, strong restrictions on free speech on campus are a consequence of restrictions on the use of public funds and resources to promote personal political and religious views.

      Is muzzling free speech, simply because some find it offensive, not also promoting a personal political view? How can people speak of "tolerance" when they're unwilling to tolerate free speech on campus? Does it strike anyone else as ironic that those who hold "tolerance" in such high regard are amongst the most intolerant of speech that doesn't comport with their world view and ideological sensibilities?

    5. Re:Coporate Influence by sed+quid+in+infernos · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, public universities have very little power to restrict student speech on campus. See, for example, Rosenberger v. University of Virginia, where the Supreme Court required the University to fund a Christian magazine on the same basis it funded student-run secular magazines. Just a few years before that happened, the University tried to defund a conservative magazine. The argument was that commenting on the activities of NOW and other liberal organizations was an inappropriate "political" use of student activity funds; no one seemed take into account that the activities being commented on were funded by those same fees. That one didn't go to court, because of a media storm.

      The fact that the students are in some sense "using" state-funded resources doesn't really provide a constitutional basis to restrict their private speech. If resource are made available for private student speech, a public university has very little leeway to favor one viewpoint over another--and this includes attempts to exclude entire topics in a supposedly neutral manner. This error has been repeated quite often in this thread, and it's one reason organizations like FIRE are needed: the public is woefully uneducated on this issue. For example, if a public university allows students to hand out flyers on the quad as a general matter, they can't really control the content of those flyers. And if they restrict the flyers to "official" university functions, they have to ensure that the definition of official is precise and hat they don't allow exceptions.

    6. Re:Coporate Influence by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      It's because universities are overwhelmingly run by a single ideology (in this case, leftism, but in another time or universe, rightism).

      Universities are not hotbeds of leftism, and they never really were. A few universities are or were, but for the most part, here is what life at today's universities is like:

      1. Don't ask the wrong questions
      2. Climb the ladder: you are at school so you can get a good job afterward
      3. Know your place
      4. Pay!
      5. Don't complain about money!
      6. Never question how the system works, and make sure you call anyone who does question the system annoying.

      Corporations generally don't care at all about what you say - they just want your money

      Yes, they care about money. That's why they care about what you say:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2000/nov/24/internetnews.internationalnews

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  4. Typical.. by drewsup · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So in order to not offend ANYONE, NO ONE is allowed to say ANYTHING.
    This goes right along with sports where there is no winner\ everyone gets a trophy to PC playgrounds with no jungle gyms.
    I weep at what has happened to my country in the past 30 years. I think it's time to start again from scratch.

    1. Re:Typical.. by reboot246 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It starts with assaults on free speech, but it ends with destroying the most basic of freedoms - the freedom to fail.

  5. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by MyLongNickName · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nice ad hominem. Instead of reading the source and arguing with the points made, you drool on yourself and blabber on about Murdoch.

    The fact is that free speech in America has been getting more and more curtailed. Some in a very overt manner (free speech zones). Some in a softer manner (How DARE you suggest that affirmative action is racist, you racist). But the US is not as free as it used to be. No, we are nowhere near a totalitarian state. But freedoms do not go away overnight. If we continue to let the slide continue, we'll be closer to the totalitarian state. Freedoms are hard to get back once they've been ceded.

    But thanks for your idiotic response. If anything, it was a nice foil.

    --
    See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
  6. High conservative bent by Beetle+B. · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Most of the examples in the article have a pro-conservative leaning. So I went to their FIRE database and tried to find some cases where I knew universities tried blocking left-wing people from speaking. Not surprisingly, I didn't find at least the ones I was aware of.

    I think it's good someone is defending conservatives' right to speech. I simply feel they should be open about their partisanship.

    --
    Beetle B.
    1. Re:High conservative bent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      No...the issue is that FIRE says it is concerned about freedom at campuses in general, but is largely silent whenever, for example, private religious institutions like Liberty University trounce all over their student's freedom of speech.

    2. Re:High conservative bent by DirePickle · · Score: 3, Informative

      Your first clue should have been that this was an article from the WSJ.

    3. Re:High conservative bent by Beetle+B. · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Somewhere like Liberty has goals, and a legal status, very different than those of a state university.

      The database contains both public and private universities.

      --
      Beetle B.
    4. Re:High conservative bent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just as right-wingers tend to see any moderate view that's not extreme right as "liberal", they also tend to see anything restricting their asshole behavior as "anti-conservative" backlash or oppression, as if it's because of their political view. No, morons, it's because you're acting like assholes. The restrictions are on acting like an asshole in an environment that demands cooperation and consideration.

      Conservatives say they value "strength" and "independence" and "bravery." They interpret this to mean being bull-headed, closed-minded, and argumentative. You want to stop being "oppressed," stop acting like assholes (or just admiring those who do).

  7. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Posting anonymous so I don't lose my mod points.

    > Instead of reading the source and arguing with the points made ...

    Everyone here, please read this. This is part of the problem. "If my guy does it, you're just overreacting if you disagree," and "if their guy does it, it's automatically suspect, move along, nothing to see."

    Forget political parties. Forget Democrat or Republican, or WSJ vs. NYT. If speech is being curtailed, that should concern you.

    Example: friend of mine works with my wife at the Social Security Administration, where the rules are so byzantine, they can mean anything you want them to this week. This friend jokes that says things like, "my, you're looking remarkably neutral and androgynous today." It's fun to watch their puzzled expressions as they try to decide whether it's a compliment, an insult, or something that merits a formal EEOC complaint.

    Freedom of speech means FREEDOM OF SPEECH. As the Supreme Court of the US has ruled many times, even OFFENSIVE speech must be protected. Even speech with which you might personally disagree.

    This should concern every one of you, regardless of your ideological bent.

  8. The full Fordham University statement by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not surprised the Wall Street Journal allowed Mr. Lukianoff to mischaracterize the contents of Fordham's statement.
    Read it for yourself and see if it really matches the tone of WSJ's article : http://www.fordham.edu/Campus_Resources/eNewsroom/topstories_2601.asp

    November 9, 2012

    The College Republicans, a student club at Fordham University, has invited Ann Coulter to speak on campus on November 29. The event is funded through student activity fees and is not open to the public nor the media. Student groups are allowed, and encouraged, to invite speakers who represent diverse, and sometimes unpopular, points of view, in keeping with the canons of academic freedom. Accordingly, the University will not block the College Republicans from hosting their speaker of choice on campus.

    To say that I am disappointed with the judgment and maturity of the College Republicans, however, would be a tremendous understatement. There are many people who can speak to the conservative point of view with integrity and conviction, but Ms. Coulter is not among them. Her rhetoric is often hateful and needlessly provocative--more heat than light--and her message is aimed squarely at the darker side of our nature.

    As members of a Jesuit institution, we are called upon to deal with one another with civility and compassion, not to sling mud and impugn the motives of those with whom we disagree or to engage in racial or social stereotyping. In the wake of several bias incidents last spring, I told the University community that I hold out great contempt for anyone who would intentionally inflict pain on another human being because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, or creed.

    "Disgust" was the word I used to sum up my feelings about those incidents. Hate speech, name-calling, and incivility are completely at odds with the Jesuit ideals that have always guided and animated Fordham.

    Still, to prohibit Ms. Coulter from speaking at Fordham would be to do greater violence to the academy, and to the Jesuit tradition of fearless and robust engagement. Preventing Ms. Coulter from speaking would counter one wrong with another. The old saw goes that the answer to bad speech is more speech. This is especially true at a university, and I fully expect our students, faculty, alumni, parents, and staff to voice their opposition, civilly and respectfully, and forcefully.

    The College Republicans have unwittingly provided Fordham with a test of its character: do we abandon our ideals in the face of repugnant speech and seek to stifle Ms. Coulter's (and the student organizers') opinions, or do we use her appearance as an opportunity to prove that our ideas are better and our faith in the academy--and one another--stronger? We have chosen the latter course, confident in our community, and in the power of decency and reason to overcome hatred and prejudice.

    Joseph M. McShane, S.J., President

    Compare and contrast with

    Mr. Lukianoff says that the Fordham-Coulter affair took campus censorship to a new level:
    "This was the longest, strongest condemnation of a speaker that I've ever seen in which a university president also tried to claim that he was defending freedom of speech."

    I guess in the print edition, the WSJ and Lukianoff can assume most people won't actually read the statement being attacked.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:The full Fordham University statement by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I guess in the print edition, the WSJ and Lukianoff can assume most people won't actually read the statement being attacked.

      The conservative media doesn't report the news anymore. They take statements out of context and generate their own version of news. Weren't you here during the last election season? ;-)

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    2. Re:The full Fordham University statement by westlake · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The conservative media doesn't report the news anymore. They take statements out of context and generate their own version of news.

      Not so very different from Slashdot.

    3. Re:The full Fordham University statement by Stiletto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, basically, it went like this:

      College Republicans: We're inviting Ann Coulter onto campus to do her hate-schtick show.
      University Officials: Go ahead, but you're making yourselves look like douchebags and this university look like a circus.
      College Republicans: Uhmm.. OK, she's dis-invited.
      College Republicans to the Wall Street Journal: WAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! THE COMMUNIST LIBRUL UNIVERSITY IS CENSORING OUR FREE SPEECH!!!! WAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

    4. Re:The full Fordham University statement by sgtrock · · Score: 2
      How did this get modded +5? Directly from the officers of the College Republicans:

      The College Republicans regret the controversy surrounding our planned lecture featuring Ann Coulter. The size and severity of opposition to this event have caught us by surprise and caused us to question our decision to welcome her to Rose Hill. Looking at the concerns raised about Ms. Coulter, many of them reasonable, we have determined that some of her comments do not represent the ideals of the College Republicans and are inconsistent with both our organizationâ(TM)s mission and the Universityâ(TM)s. We regret that we failed to thoroughly research her before announcing; that is our error and we do not excuse ourselves for it. Consistent with our strong disagreement with certain comments by Ms. Coulter, we have chosen to cancel the event and rescind Ms. Coulterâ(TM)s invitation to speak at Fordham. We made this choice freely before Father McShaneâ(TM)s email was sent out and we became aware of his feelings â" had the President simply reached out to us before releasing his statement, he would have learned that the event was being cancelled. We hope the University community will forgive the College Republicans for our error and continue to allow us to serve as its main voice of the sensible, compassionate, and conservative political movement that we strive to be. We fell short of that standard this time, and we offer our sincere apologies.

      Ted Conrad, President

      Emily Harman, Vice President

      Joe Campagna, Treasurer

      John Mantia, Secretary

      (emphasis added)

      IOW, some kids made a mistake, realized it, owned up to it, and dealt with it appropriately in a mature fashion. In the meantime, a spiteful, mean woman was told exactly what she was. THAT's the real story here.

    5. Re:The full Fordham University statement by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      The university has no business even expressing an opinion as to the fitness of the speaker.

      Teabagger douchebag: Universities are engaging in censorship! Free speeech!
      Tubesteak: No, they're not. They let Coulter speak, just criticized the choice.
      Teabagger douchebag: Universities have no right to free speech!

      Do you guys have any sense of logical consistency purged in a special ceremony, or do you have to practice at it, or what?

    6. Re:The full Fordham University statement by fnj · · Score: 2

      The conservative media doesn't report the news anymore. They take statements out of context and generate their own version of news. Weren't you here during the last election season? ;-)

      The liberal media doesn't report the news anymore. They take statements out of context and generate their own version of news. Weren't you here during the last election season? ;-)

      OK, now we've both got that out of our systems, how about we refuse to be gamed by the system with its false left-right divide which is only for show as they both grind away our rights and our wealth?

  9. Freedom is not granted by the administration by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...it is exercised by the students. In the sixties, freedom of expression on campus sometimes had a high cost. University administrations may have bowed to expediency in the seventies and eighties, but it does appear that the old shackles are back in place, although some of them have different names.

    Today's students can take back their freedom of expression, but will they have the guts to do so? Or will they continue to lament that "the man" doesn't allow them to say unpopular things?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Freedom is not granted by the administration by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      That's all true. And how is that situation different from the campus protests in the sixties? Or, for that matter, Occupy Wall Street?

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  10. Re:Look up FIRE by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2

    Another idiot using an ad hominem attack.

    FIRE was founded about 15 years ago by a civil liberties professor. So your "Republican wing" comment is pretty stupid. It promotes free speech on campus, even those that might be the most upstanding or "socially polite". If anything, they are more like the ACLU than RNC.

    But yeah, dismiss things out of hand with no factual basis. Then immediately afterward, pat yourself on the back for being an intellectual.

    --
    See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
  11. Re:Hate speech by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 3

    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    Exactly. Just look at how offensive she is! Anything that offends me must be destroyed.

    --
    Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  12. Re:Universities are way too PC by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Informative

    That worked for Springer, Stern, Coulter, Imas, and Limbaugh!

    Right up until FOX has to step in and get the Supreme Court to declare "lying" as protected free speech... To keep them on the air.

    The CONSERVATIVES RULE the airwaves for non-PC talk. Even Springer and Stern are "Right" shows because they treat their subjects as "freak of the week" while shouting "look how offensive I am!"

    It's sad when NPR is the last "liberal" holdout.. As they make an honest attempt to have discussion . Even the BBC gets labeled as liberal when they are the closest thing we have to 1960's style news people remember.

  13. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The fact is that free speech in America has been getting more and more curtailed. Some in a very overt manner (free speech zones). Some in a softer manner (How DARE you suggest that affirmative action is racist, you racist).

    You seem to have a misconception about what free speech is. Your first example is about restricting people to particular locations in order to prevent their speech from being heard... all good so far. Your second example, however, is about someone exercising their free speech to criticize someone else's speech. It is an example of free speech, not an example of free speech being restricted.

    Nice ad hominem. Instead of reading the source and arguing with the points made, you drool on yourself and blabber on about Murdoch.

    You make a good point that we should be judging articles on their merit, however, technically it was not an ad hominem. An ad hominem is the informal fallacy of claiming some argument is wrong based upon some characteristic of the person making the argument. The previous poster made no claim that the argument was wrong, but merely pointed out the untrustworthy nature of the publication and exposited on what they thought the content was likely to be. I highly encourage you to read a book on informal logic as it is a very useful tool/method and will help you not only argue with more precision, but refine your understanding of logically determining truths.

  14. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by kenorland · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The fact is that free speech in America has been getting more and more curtailed.

    "Free speech" means that the government doesn't punish you for what you say. Legally, free speech has been increasing steadily: you can say things now about sex, politics, and religion that would have landed you in legal trouble half a century ago.

    But "free speech" doesn't mean that you can say anything anywhere without consequences. Your fellow citizens can still punish you for what you say. Business can refuse to deal with you. Liberal universities can kick you out for spewing Christian fundamentalist nonsense, and Christian universities can kick you out for spewing progressive nonsense. That's what living in a free country means. And thanks to the Internet, we have more opportunity to engage in free speech than ever before.

    The sky isn't falling on free speech; quite the opposite, free speech is legally protected than ever before and there are more venues for it than ever before. The only thing anybody might reasonably complain about is that tax dollars are used so widely to support one or the other viewpoint indirectly. That's not new, but that kind of (unconstitutional) government support has shifted from conservative causes to liberal causes. The answer is not to shift it back, the answer is to eliminate such government involvement.

  15. Re:Hate speech by Smallpond · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This article appears to be bitching and moaning about the fact that hate speech has been universally recognized as out of the scope of free speech. Ann Coulter is generally regarded amongst the cognoscenti as a purveyor of hate speech, not free speech. I fail to see how denying her an audience of like-minded listeners could possibly be bad in any way.

    "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

    Anyone who supports this Islamophobic nutbag is a like-minded nutbag who is not welcome on any university campus. Her ideas practically beg to be suppressed, so why should she be surprised when it happens? Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    If she is wrong, let her speak and then rebut her remarks. Any suppression of free speech is a mistake. Her "like-minded listeners" will hear her anyway. I don't object to letting her speak. What I object to is "journalists" who report her garbage as though it is coming from a respectable source.

  16. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

    Look, America has an unhealthy obsession with "private-good; public-bad". And guess what, the private sector does not need -- nor desires -- to enforce free speech. You want universities to be havens of free speech? It's a 2-step process:
      - make them public / make the institutions which are necessary for the public good follow the same rules as public institutions.
      - demand of the public institutions to respect your rights. This is actually pretty easy.

    Also, the OP is right: it is a crybaby Murdoch piece about people unhappy that they can't hate in peace.

  17. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Informative

    "If my guy does it, you're just overreacting if you disagree," and "if their guy does it, it's automatically suspect, move along, nothing to see."

    Except, you and the guy you are supporting are completely wrong about what's going on here. This really is a Murdock propaganda piece. Look, sometimes a person is reliably and consistently stupid and evil. This means saying "oh, I'm sure Ghengis isn't riding towards those young girls to be nice to them" is not prejudice, just justifiable wisdom. Now your point would be really great if this was an exception. But let's see what I find if I look it up.

    WSJ:

    At Western Michigan University, it is considered harassment to hold a "condescending sex-based attitude."

    Actual policy (I'm not going to include the context here; please read yourself):

    Sexual harassment is defined as unwelcome sexual conduct which is related to any condition of employment or evaluation of student performance.

    and in a separate paragraph near to but not related to the definition of harassment, the only use of the word condescending:

    All persons should be sensitive to situations that may affect or cause the recipient discomfort or humiliation or may display a condescending sex-based attitude towards a person.

    If something is put in a media outlet which belongs to Murdock, assuming that the truth is the opposite will only make you wrong about 10% of the time. In this case, it's about Murdock trying to attack the freedom of speech of the people at universities.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  18. Rights apply everywhere by krisamico · · Score: 3

    for citizens in good standing. That is the definition of unalienable. Sometimes you have to fight for them though! Not to worry, you are witnessing Peak College. Bloated, wasteful, dysfunctional institutions will vaporize with the credit that pays their ridiculous prices. Goods and services purchased with credit are altered by the supply of said credit. When we stop rewarding failure with bailouts, that is. Affordable education that caters only to the needs of the student body will be a welcome change!

  19. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by chmod+a+x+mojo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, well, the site is retarded. They rated my University "red" because we have policies in place to prevent discrimination and hate speech. Heaven forbid the poor racist bastards would get punished if they make some other student who just wants their own educations life a living hell. Same with the sexual harassment codes. Nope, we have to get up in arms just cause you can't derogatorily call that black dude a nigger or the Chinese chick a chink, and damn it all who gives a shit what that chick thinks... we all know they just want the cock, am I right? Seriously, ro read what they have "issues" with the "openness" of the speech with the University of Wisconsin, it's a damn joke.

    As long as you are not intentionally being offensive you can chalk messages on the sidewalk... just provide the chalk, no need for permission - this includes political views, religious views, and pretty much anything else you want. Same with dorm rooms, you want to post intentionally offensive stuff on your dorm room? Post it on the inside of the door, the harassment codes specifically state that as a matter of fact.

    Shit, we just had an annual remembrance get-together remembering when a bunch of student had a huge protest in the 60's that had hundreds of arrests and over a hundred expulsions. The school provided funds to something that basically was just rubbing the schools face in the dog shit.

    TL;DR: site was shit, just a bunch of whiny idiots complaining because they can't be racist / sexist / harassing anyone anywhere.

    --
    To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
  20. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Forget political parties. Forget Democrat or Republican, or WSJ vs. NYT. If speech is being curtailed, that should concern you.

    You make a very good point. If free speech is being infringed by the government we should all be concerned, regardless of who brings that issue to our attention or if the act is being done by a specific political party. I think, however, you go a little too far in your equivocation. The trustworthiness of our sources of information are important and by excluding particular details or simply misrepresenting the facts an issue of speech not being subsidized by a specific organization can be misrepresented as that speech being censored, and make no mistake these are very different things.

    When you write, "WSJ vs. NYT" red flags go off in my mind. You're presenting not just publications favored by political parties, but one publication with a very solid history of integrity and factual presentation of information with a publication owned by a very deceptive corporation. The Newscorp organization is a big fan of free speech, insomuch as they went to court to defend their free speech rights to publish news stories they knew were untrue and to fire the reporters who refused to present them. And hey, they're correct. They do have the right to tell complete untruths to their viewers and readers. But at the same time their actions make it abhorrent to mention them in the same breath as the NYT and make me think anyone who believes anything they read in Newscorp publications is an uninformed idiot.

  21. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by Dragon+Bait · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "If my guy does it, you're just overreacting if you disagree," and "if their guy does it, it's automatically suspect, move along, nothing to see."

    Except, you and the guy you are supporting are completely wrong about what's going on here. This really is a Murdock propaganda piece. Look, sometimes a person is reliably and consistently stupid and evil. This means saying "oh, I'm sure Ghengis isn't riding towards those young girls to be nice to them" is not prejudice, just justifiable wisdom. Now your point would be really great if this was an exception. But let's see what I find if I look it up.

    Even a blind pig occasionally finds acorns. My oldest made the comment that "children are nothing but a black hole of need." Some PC idiot said "you can't say that, that's racist." The teacher walked by and told her that she wasn't to make such racist comments in the future (and threatened her with explosion).

    Universities are no longer liberal institutions where ideas can be freely discussed. Idiocy and censorship do abound. But feel free to shoot the messenger and ignore the problem.

  22. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's basically a bunch of crybaby Republicans whining about how unwelcome on campus their harassment of women, minorities, gays, muslims, any anyone else not like them is.

    Freedom of speech isn't free anymore when you stop crybaby Republicans from whining.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  23. "free speech zones" by bcrowell · · Score: 3, Interesting

    TFA focuses mainly on content-based restrictions, such as prohibiting people from quoting certain passages from the Koran. But along with these restrictions, many schools now have extremely onerous "time, place, and manner" regulations. Although these are written so as to be blind to the content of the speech, they're often absurdly restrictive. I teach at a community college in Fullerton, California, where last year the police murdered a mentally ill homeless man. This resulted in murder charges being brought by the DA, and a city council recall. I wanted to set up a card table on my school's grassy quad to collect signatures for the recall petition. I went through the process of registering officially, and the restrictions were just nuts. They have two very small patches of grass, over at the corner of the quad, which are marked on the map. I was forbidden from approaching people as they walked by. A lot of colleges refer to these tiny patches, apparently without any consciousness of irony, as free speech zones.

    As far as I can tell, the intention is simply to create conditions that make it absolutely impossible for students to stage anything like an actual political rally or protest. You simply wouldn't be able to fit more than about 10 human bodies into one of these free speech zones.

  24. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by opus_magnum · · Score: 4, Funny

    (and threatened her with explosion).

    Shouldn't your daughter have reported her as terrorist?

  25. Colleges and Universities are dinosaurs by boddhisatva · · Score: 2

    A college education costs more and more and becomes worth less and less. As it is, in many professions, a company will hire someone with a bachelors degree and three years experience before someone with a bachelor's and a master's. This makes the ROI for a master's a negative number. As technology is advancing at an exponential rate, the value of degree decreases at a corresponding rate after it is acquired. The Stanford professor who taught an AI course online and had 100,000 students quit to pursue this methodology full time. MIT is putting all of it's courses online, free. Maybe colleges will become research institutions. But in that regard, when some grad students started working on fuzzy logic, their professors told them "Pursue this and your career is over" and peer-reviewed journals refused to publish their papers. Similar stories come out of every field. Nothing has changed since Galileo. I remember the scene in "Good Will Hunting" where Matt Damon tells a Harvard student that he could have gotten his $50,000 education (back then) for the price of library card. Now it's online. By the way, the text for the AI class was $100. That has to go. Doing a google search and finding that most of the papers on Hidden Markov Models cost $15-$35 is most disconcerting. That has to go. The only people left behind should be alchemists and assholes.

  26. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by russotto · · Score: 2

    Freedom of speech isn't free anymore when you stop crybaby Republicans from whining.

    My kingdom for a mod point! Voltaire could not have put it better.

  27. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    My kingdom for a mod point! Voltaire could not have put it better.

    Wow, thankyou sir. I'm certain I've never received a nicer compliment on slashdot, and surely it is undeserved.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  28. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The writer is selecting the parts that support the thesis, but says nothing inaccurate. The policy does in fact threaten sanctions for a "condescending sex-based attitude".

    a) the writer says it is considered harassment to hold a "condescending sex-based attitude." where actually harassment is defined as unwelcome sexual conduct which is related to any condition of employment or evaluation of student performance. So the writer is actually saying something "inaccurate"

    b) I can't see any sanctions clearly linked to not being "sensitive" which is the only context where this occurs. Now, I am not a lawyer, so I'm quite willing to bow to your 'expert' opinion, however please do explain how you parse the policy so that you see sanctions linked to a "condescending sex-based attitude". I have no doubt that my fascination will be fully aroused by your explanation.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  29. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    Clearly you don't get the point.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  30. Baby Boomers Sold Out and became the problem. by couchslug · · Score: 2

    The students who hated all authority in the Sixties were RIGHT, but they sold out for the most part.

    Kids, the Man is fucking YOU even harder than he did your predecessors.

    Unless you get pissed off enough to act, "prepare your anus".

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  31. Re:Wow, don't have opinions online. by JWW · · Score: 2

    Yeah, and if you want to say those things on the lawn of the university they need to be stopped too.

    This can't say x on public this or that is just bullshit. Limiting speech in public areas is limiting speech. We shouldn't be required to buy our own private areas to exercise free speech. Universities should understand and be ardent supporters of this.

  32. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by misexistentialist · · Score: 2

    I don't think it's clear at all there, mixing definitions of coercive or sustained harassment and simple "discomfort", though this page this page is more coherent, laying out the "hostile environment" terms. Whether harassment has occurred is "judged both objectively and subjectively", which is another way of saying "No Men Allowed."

  33. The Young Republicans of Fordham by westlake · · Score: 3, Informative

    The College Republicans regret the controversy surrounding our planned lecture featuring Ann Coulter. The size and severity of opposition to this event have caught us by surprise, and caused us to question our decision to welcome her to Rose Hill. Looking at the concerns raised about Ms. Coulter, many of them reasonable, we have determined that some of her comments do not represent the ideals of the College Republicans and are inconsistent with both our organization's mission, and the University's. We regret that we failed to thoroughly research her before announcing, that is our error and we do not excuse ourselves for it. Consistent with our strong disagreement with certain comments by Ms. Coulter we have chosen to cancel the event and rescind Ms. Coulterâ(TM)s invitation to speak at Fordham. We made this choice freely, before Father McShaneâ(TM)s email was sent out and we became aware of his feelings --- had the President simply reached out to us before releasing his statement he would have learned that the event was being cancelled. We hope the University community will forgive the College Republicans for our error, and continue to allow us to serve as its main voice of the sensible, compassionate, and conservative political movement that we strive to be. We fell short of that standard this time, and we offer our sincere apologies.

    Ted Conrad, President

    UPDATED: McShane Responds to College Republicans' Cancellation of Ann Coulter Event

    The Republican Club tried to get the Student Association to spring for George Will, but was capped at $10,000. Fordham College Republicans withdraw Coulter invite

    The Speaker's Bureau:

    Campus Speaker & Board of Advisors Member - Ann Coulter

    Click here to host an event with Ann on your campus!

    Fun times:

    The incident followed a Monday night lecture at the University of Western Ontario, where Coulter told a Muslim student to "take a camel" as an alternative to flying.

    Coulter made the comment as she responded to a question from student Fatima Al-Dhaher, who asked about previous comments in which Coulter said Muslims shouldn't be allowed on airplanes and should take "flying carpets" instead. Al-Dhaher noted she did not own a flying carpet and asked what she should take as an alternative transportation. Coulter did not deny making the flying carpet comment and replied to the university student, "What mode of transportation? Take a camel," to jeers and cheers. It was a decidedly pro-Coulter audience. One man, who identified himself as a U.S. citizen, described U.S. President Barack Obama as a "Marxist."

    She is well-known for her vehement views against Muslims. In a post-September 11 column, she wrote that the U.S. should invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

    Coulter, who often comments on Fox News, once said Canada is "lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent" after the Canadian government did not join the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

    Coulter speech cancelled over fears of violence

  34. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by misexistentialist · · Score: 2

    Free speech: you don't get it. You think "harassment" is something else than the legal definition. You think "hate speech" is something different from speech. You even think a ceremony funded by the school is the height of "free speech"! Though to be fair, those aren't really your thoughts.

  35. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't think it's clear at all there,

    I'd agree there. It's an awful piece of writing which the university should be ashamed of. However it doesn't actually say anything threatening and if they did try it on they would lose of ever pushed to it.

    this page this page is more coherent, laying out the "hostile environment" terms. Whether harassment has occurred is "judged both objectively and subjectively", which is another way of saying "No Men Allowed."

    I definitely support the principle that "The issue is not whether you are paranoid, the issue is whether you are paranoid enough" but in this case you are being paranoid ;-) The fact is though, that this is basically just a direct cut'n paste from Davis, the related supreme court judgement. For the University it's saying we match exactly what the supreme court told us to do. For real life it's saying that you can't be done for harassment just because some delicate flower felt harassed; you have to actually objectively harass them. It's also saying that if they were (literally) asking for it and don't feel that they were harassed, it's still okay even if, according to the objective standards you could have been said to be harassing them.

    In other words, this particular statement is pretty much 100% on the side of sanity and definitely doesn't mean "man == harasser", however much Andrea Dworkin might wish it to mean that.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  36. Re:True, but irrelevant to the discussion by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    What is not permitted is actual hate speech, behavior intended to incite violence toward a group, or intentionally cause emotional harm (arguably another form of violence, simply a non-physical one).

    These are all protected under the US constitution, and for good reason.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  37. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 2

    If the WSJ is excluding details to make a point, it is the epitome of triviality to argue against those points by showing what was excluded. If the WSJ is wrong about something, prove it.

    I think other posters have already covered that pretty well. The WSJ clearly was trying to misconstrue the facts and sensationalize.

    Otherwise, just stuff it, because your cheerleading for the NYT at the expense of the WSJ won't convince anyone.

    This isn't about "cheerleading". I'm not particularly a fan of the NYT, but I certainly recognize them as a a normal, reputable newspaper that does research, vets their sources, makes an attempt not to print outright falsehoods, and prints retractions. Newscorp owned properties are something else. To pretend they should be given equal weight on their face is just absurd at this point. It really isn't news, it's an attempt to persuade.

    Those who are "uniformed idiots" because they read the WSJ certainly won't be convinced (the name calling is a nice touch - really brings people to your way of thinking).

    If you get your news from a source that went to court to defend their constitutional right to lie to their readers/viewers, what else would such a person be called? You pretty much have to be uninformed and/or an idiot to trust such a "news" source.

    And those who already agree with you don't need convincing.

    Here's where you mistake. I'm not trying to convince people. That's rhetoric. I'm presenting a logical argument. Frankly, I don't expect people to change their minds as most people are just looking for anything to justify what they already believe. Instead I'm writing to respond to those that can still argue logically and really, fuck the rest of you. This is Slashdot, news for nerds. If you can't handle logic why would I care about your opinion?

    Rational thinkers will not be convinced, and those are the only ones you can possibly hope to sway.

    Rational thinkers ignore the rhetoric you endorse. Wasting time coddling people who insist on believing things written by a propaganda company proven to repeatedly lie are the ones beyond hope.

  38. What do you expect? by p51d007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The "free thinking" radicals of the 60's counter culture movement, are today's 50 & 60 year old "professors" in most major institutions. Couple that with the ideology they have pushed in primary & secondary schools over the last 25 years, and they have melded the minds of today's 20-30 year old adults into believing that free speech is only free as long as you believe what they believe. If not, you are to be told you are a __________(insert favorite PC term), and need to be silenced. Until THAT ideology is removed, and the so called political correctness "movement" is contained, nothing will change it.

  39. Re:Could the summary possibly be more slanted? by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 2

    I'm a Republican and I'm not whiny. Let's look at it from my perspective. The colleges are indoctrinating the youth with no opposition.

    Why does your perspective have to be so absolute? That seems to be the problem. Nothing prevents universities from bringing in any speakers they want so long as they do so within the bounds of the constitution and if they allow/pay one religion to speak they do the same for all. That seems to be the fundamental disconnect in my mind. When everyone is given equal opportunity, why do you whine about not being given more than equal opportunity?

    Harassment of women: This is strictly about abortion.

    Actually if you read the article and the actual policies at the university it claims to cite, this is about no employee making grades or employment based upon requirement that people have the same views. So no, it isn't about abortion... but lets continue.

    For sake of argument pretend you believe life begins at conception. Would you be OK with a form of birth control that ended a human life each time it was used? You can argue that life doesn't begin at conception but that's not the point. The point is, if yo believe life DOES begin at conception then how could you act any different than the Republicans do?

    You see I believe in freedom. For example, I believe 99% of people who shoot pigeons are jackasses. They're hunting for sport, wasting good meat, and they mostly are macho dickheads trying to compensate for their own inadequacy. I voted to give them the freedom to choose to continue this sport, even though I disapprove.

    Even if I believed life began at conception I can still rationally demonstrate that that is just an opinion and unprovable. Further I can logically demonstrate it is a faith based opinion not supported by science. So even if I believe it, I would still support the right of other individuals to make their own choices based on their own beliefs and if there is a god, let him judge them.

    It's called "freedom" and it's not just a bumper sticker or a campaign slogan. Maybe you should try believing in it instead of just saying it like a parrot.

    Other than that, there is no harassment of women from Republicans.

    Umm, yeah. Except all the other harassment about things like homosexuality, subservience to men, etc.

    Minorities: Affirmative action, you can't make up for past discrimination by enforcing racial discrimination upon everyone.

    Is that truly what you believe the purpose of affirmative action is, punitive? Maybe you should read something that isn't from the right wing. Try reading how affirmative action changed, for example, politics and business in northern Europe removing in a few generations the prejudice of centuries.

    Gays: All about marriage. I had a gay room mate. I have many friends who are gay, I live in California. I am against gay marriage.

    Please. Before gay marriage Republicans fought against homosexuality being legal at all and after they lose gay marriage they'll still be fighting against the rights of gays to adopt children. Why do you hate freedom? For a party who opposes "big government" you sure do believe in the government making choices for other people and getting in people's personal business. Here's an idea, don't like gay marriage? Don't marry any gay people and shut the hell up and mind your own business.

    Muslims: sorry, I can't give you a rational argument you will accept (not that I expect you to accept my point of view on any of these). Muslims are responsible for 99% of all terrorist attacks in the world.

    Have you considered learning facts? They make decision making much more accurate.

    ...as for "anyone else not like them" pure bullshit. You people on the left chastise and berate anyone who is a Republican.

  40. However.... by pastafazou · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And, in fact, the greatest damage moderates and right-wing could do to the left wing extremists is to invite them to freely speak their minds. The resulting spew of sexist, anti-Semitic, elitist, racist, and hate filled non-sequiturs would likely shift most people just a bit to the right.