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How Do We Program Moral Machines?

nicholast writes "If your driverless car is about to crash into a bus, should it veer off a bridge? NYU Prof. Gary Marcus has a good essay about the need to program ethics and morality into our future machines. Quoting: 'Within two or three decades the difference between automated driving and human driving will be so great you may not be legally allowed to drive your own car, and even if you are allowed, it would immoral of you to drive, because the risk of you hurting yourself or another person will be far greater than if you allowed a machine to do the work. That moment will be significant not just because it will signal the end of one more human niche, but because it will signal the beginning of another: the era in which it will no longer be optional for machines to have ethical systems.'"

54 of 604 comments (clear)

  1. Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I maintain that you CAN'T really program morality into a machine (it's hard enough to program it into a human). And I also doubt that engineers will ever really be able to overcome the numerous technical issues involved with driverless cars. But above these two problems, far and away above *all* problems with driverless cars is the real reason I think we'll never see anything more than driver *assisting* cars on the road: legal liability.

    To put it bluntly, raise your hand if YOU want to be the first car manufacturer to make a car for which you are potentially liable in *every single accident that car ever gets into*, from the day it's sold until the day it's scrapped. Any takers? How much would you have to add onto the sticker price to cover the costs of going to court every single time that particular car was involved in an accident? Of defending the efficacy of your driverless system against other manufacturer's systems (and against defect, and against the word of the driver himself that he was using the system properly) in one liability case after another?

    According to Forbes, the average driver is involved in an accident every 18 years. Let's suppose (and I'm sure the statisticians would object to this supposition) that that means that the average CAR is also involved in a wreck every 18 years as well. Since the average age of a car is about 11 years now, it's not unreasonable to assume that a little less than half of all cars on the road will be involved in at least one accident in their functional lifetimes. And even with the added safety of driverless systems, the first model available will still have to contend with a road mostly filled with regular, non-driverless-system cars. So let's say that a good 25% of those first models will probably end up in an accident at some point, which will make a very tempting target for lawyers going for the deep pockets of their manufacturers.

    Again, what car company wouldn't take that into account when asking themselves if they want to be a pioneer in this field?

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by DavidClarkeHR · · Score: 2

      To put it bluntly, raise your hand if YOU want to be the first car manufacturer to make a car for which you are potentially liable in *every single accident that car ever gets into*, from the day it's sold until the day it's scrapped. Any takers?

      ... no one. But you'll get plenty who charge mandatory tune-ups to ensure compliance. The question will be "which company DOESN'T charge a fee for a mandatory yearly check-up"?

      --
      - Nec Impar Pluribus, or so I'm told.
    2. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What they're talking about here, though, isn't really programming morality into machines in some kind of sentient, Isaac-Asimov sense, but just programming decision policies into machines, which have ethical implications. The ethical questions come at the programming stage, when deciding what policies the automatic car should follow in various situations.

    3. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is my exact reasoning why flying cars will never take off (pardon the pun). People keep their cars in terrible condition. If your car has an engine failure, worst case scenario, you pull over to the side of the road, or end up blocking traffic. In a flying vehicle, if your engine dies, It's very possible that you will die too. And if you are above a city, it's not impossible to imagine crashing into an innocent bystander.

      I imagine the same will be for self driving cars. It will never happen because if the car is getting bad information from its sensors, then crazy things can happen. People can't be bothered to clean more than 2 square inches from their windshield in the winter. Do you really think they are going to go around cleaning the 10 different sensors of ice and snow every winter morning? Sure the car could refuse to operate if the sensors are blocked, but then I guess people would just not want to buy the car, or complain to the dealer about it.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    4. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think your statistics on accidents are informative but you're missing an important point. With automated cars, we expect accident rates to go down significantly (so saith the summary). So the likelihood an _automated_ car will be _at fault_ in an accident is probably a lot lower than the 25% you presume. (The manufacturer does not care about accidents where the machine is not at fault, beyond complying with crash-safety requirements.)

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    5. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, the solution to liability is legal - grant immunity as long as the car performs above some safety standard on the whole, and that standard can be raised as the industry progresses. There is no reason that somebody should be punished for making a car 10X safer than any car on the road today.

      As far as programming morality - I think that will be the easy part. The real issue is defining it in the first place. Once you define it, getting a computer to behave morally is likely to be far EASIER than getting a human to do so, since a computer need not have self-interest in the decision making. You'd be hard pressed to find people who would swerve off a bridge to avoid a crowd of pedestrians, but a computer would make that decision without breaking a sweat if that were how it were designed. Computers commit suicide every day - how many smart bombs does the US drop in a year?

      But I agree, the current legal structure will be a real impediment. It will take leadership from the legislature to fix that.

    6. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by crazyjj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So the likelihood an _automated_ car will be _at fault_ in an accident is probably a lot lower than the 25% you presume.

      Great. Now all you have to do is prove your system wasn't at fault in a court of law--against the sweet old lady who's suing, with the driver testifying that it was your system and not him that caused the accident, and a jury that hates big corporations. And you have to do it over and over again, in a constant barrage of lawsuits--almost one for every accident one of your cars ever gets in.

      Even if you won every single time, can you imagine the legal costs?

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    7. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by WarJolt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The funny thing is that most of the time you are in an airplane the autopilot(aka george) is in control. Even when you're landing ILS can in some cases land the plane on it's own. If you've ever been in a plane, chances are you have already put your life in the hands of a computer. I seriously doubt that 25% of the first models will get into accidents. With the new sensors that will be in these cars the computer will have a full 360 degree view of all visible objects. This is far more than a human can see. Furthermore computers can respond in a fraction of the time a human can.

      Training millions of humans to drive should be the far more scary proposition.
      Plus chances are you as an individual will be responsible for your car and the system designers and manufacturers will be able to afford good lawyers.

    8. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Above · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, I think you're both missing the biggest issue by focusing on true accidents. I think the OP's point is legitimate, even in the face of your assertion that rates go down. Companies are still taking on the risk as they are now the "driver". While the liabilities of these situations is large, there is a situation that is much, much larger.

      What happens when there is a bug in the system? Think the liability is bad when one car has a short circuit and veers head on into another? Imagine if there is a small defect. There are plenty of examples, like the Mariner 1 crash, or the AT&T System Wide Crash in 1990. We've seen the lengths to witch companies will go to track down potentially common issues, like the Jeep Cherokee sudden acceleration, or the Toyota sudden acceleration issues because it has the potential to affect all cars. But let's imagine a future where all cars are driverless, and the accident rate is 1/100th of what it is now.

      What happens when there is a Y2K style date bug? When some sensor fails if the temperature drops below a particular point? When a semi-colon is forgotten in the code, and the radio broadcast that sends out notification of an accident causes thousands of cars to execute the same re-route routine with the messed up code all at the same time.

      There is the very real potential for thousands, or even millions of cars to all crash _simultaneously_. Imagine everyone on the freeway simply veering left all the sudden. That should be the manufacturers largest fear. Crashes one at a time can be litigated and explained away, the business can go on. The first car company that crashes a few thousands cars all at the same time in response to some input will be out of business in a New York minute.

    9. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by plover · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Even if you won every single time, can you imagine the legal costs?

      No, but I can imagine a change to the legal system limiting the liability of the manufacturers of self-driving cars.

      If we could know that self-driving cars reduce accidents by 95% (a not unrealistic amount), it would be morally wrong for us to not put them on the road. If the only hurdle the manufacturers had left was the liability issue, then it would be morally wrong for Congress to not change the laws.

      Of course, Congress has been morally bankrupt since, oh, about 1789, so I doubt that they'll see this as an imperative. On the other hand, I do imagine the car makers paying lobbyists and making campaign contributions to ensure that self-driving car manufacturers are exempted from these lawsuits, so it could still happen.

      --
      John
    10. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fortunately, my automated car uses vision and radar to detect obstacles. It records everything it sees for 5 minutes before the crash, including the little old lady trying to put sugar in her coffee while making a left turn. Case closed.

    11. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by kelemvor4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Meh. Companies already face this. If any one of the thousands of parts in your car fails and causes an accident, the manufacturer can (and usually does) get sued. Ask Toyota or Firestone how that plays out. All we're talking about here is another new part. If the internet was around when power steering or the automatic transmission were invented, I bet there would have been a similar discussion about those. I think the potential liability is a good thing, because otherwise manufacturers don't have much incentive to make safe products.

    12. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The drivers would complain, but the current vehicles "know" they are unsafe much of the time (lots of cars will give you an error light if a light is out - it's trivial to determine, as the resistance changes, and check engine lights and such range from sensor problems and trivial emissions issues to catastrophic engine problems). Yet, at worst, they'll enter a "limp" mode.

      If there was a government requirement that safety related problems that are detected must shut down the car and immobilize it in no more than 5 minutes, then the problem goes away.

      It would have to be the government because of tragedy of the commons. If one car company doesn't do it, they'll sell it as a feature, and if most don't, it'll be expected that they don't, so the ones that do will be shunned.

      When all self-friving cars refuse self-driving mode if they detect any problem, you either manually drive it, or don't go anywhere. And, when everyone expects their car to immobilize if they don't care for it, they'll care for it a little more than they do now.

    13. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by dev.null.matt · · Score: 2

      It's ridiculous to assume that laws will not be passed to exempt / limit the liability of manufacturers. This could not be more correct.

    14. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

      What's a soul? Hey, just askin'...

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    15. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They get enough headaches from faulty accelerators. Can you imagine the legal problems they would get from programming hard ethical decisions into their computers?

      I see you've 1) never programmed and 2) You run Windows. I agree, I would never get in a Microsoft car considering their shoddy programming, but Microsoft would never manufacture a driverless car simply because of that.

      Almost all automotive accidents are caused by human failure. Sure, there are exceptions -- I was in a head on crash because of a blown tire, and a blown tire on a megabus killed someone a couple of months ago here in Illinois. But accidents from mechanical failure are rare.

      But people cause almost every accident. Have you seen how stupid people drive these days? They race from red light to red light as if they're actually going to get there faster that way. They get impatient. They don't pay attention. They get angry and do stupid things like speed, tailgate, suddenly switch lanes without looking, fumble with their radios, talk on their cell phones, get in a hurry... computers don't do that. There will be damned few if any accidents that are the computer's fault.

      Hell, just this morning on the news they showed a car crashing through a store, barely missing a toddler -- the idiot driver thought the car was in reverse. Had he been driving a computer-controlled car, that would have never happened.

    16. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Kjella · · Score: 2

      I think the answer to most of your questions are "not in the US". The record pay-outs for a traffic accident here in Norway is around $2 million USD for a young person seriously crippled for life, of course we have a universal health care system so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison as that only covers non-medical costs and loss of income but they don't have to risk billion dollar lawsuits in the US. If the accident rate should go bat crazy I imagine they can restrict the cars to only drive under certain road/weather/traffic conditions or in the worst case abort and refund, sure that'd be costly but pulling the emergency brake doesn't have an $infinity cost.

      Once it's off the ground I don't think you'll have much problem rolling the system out to other countries, I imagine they'll store a bunch of "black box" data to analyze accidents and figure out what, if anything, the car could have done better. Cars aren't like humans, you can both simulate a huge number of possible scenarios and you can torture test it on a driving range with climate controls to handle rain/snow/hail/fog/ice/oil spills/potholes, simulate humans or animals and so on. If you can find one flawed behavior there'll probably be a thorough search for similar flaws. With humans it's mostly "error in judgement, moving along" but here you can really go into what caused that error and fix it.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    17. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by clintp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      To put it bluntly, raise your hand if YOU want to be the first car manufacturer to make a car for which you are potentially liable in *every single accident that car ever gets into*, from the day it's sold until the day it's scrapped. Any takers?

      ... no one. But you'll get plenty who charge mandatory tune-ups to ensure compliance. The question will be "which company DOESN'T charge a fee for a mandatory yearly check-up"?

      Asimov's early robot stories dealt frequently with corporate liability and it was often the source of the plot conflicts. If a proofreading robot made a mistake causing a slander ("Galley Slave") or an industrial accident resulted in injury, US Robotics was put into the position of having to prove that it was not the fault of the robot (which it never was).

      This is why Asimov's US Robotics didn't sell you a robot, they leased it to you. The lease was iron-clad, could be revoked by either party at any time, had liability clauses, and had mandatory maintenance and upgrades to be performed by US Robotics technicians. If you refused the maintenance US Robotics would repossess, sue and claim theft if you withheld ("Bicentennial Man", though unsuccessfully; "Satisfaction Guaranteed").

      A properly functioning robot would not disobey the three laws, and an improperly functioning robot was repaired or destroyed immediately ("Lost Little Robot"). Conflicts between types of harm were resolved using probability based on the best information available at the moment ("Runaround"), and usually resulted in the collapse of the positronic brain when it was safe to do so ("Robots and Empire", etc.).

      --
      Get off my lawn.
    18. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      Why such complex answers?

      Morality will be programmed in C++ or Java - except for Apple, where Objective C will carry the day.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    19. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by lennier · · Score: 4, Funny

      Can you imagine the legal problems they would get from programming hard ethical decisions into their computers?

      FUNCTION EthicalCheckForPedestrians() ' Replaces old CheckForPedestrians() with new ethical decision procedure
          let P = PedestrianDetectedOnRoad()
          ConnectToFacebook(CarCredentials)
          SearchFacebookPedestrian(P)
          AnalyseFacebookImageSharingMemes(P)
          If HoaxesReposted(P) > 10 then
                return 0 ' No pedestrian detected, honest! Accelerate away!
          else
                return PedestrianDetectedOnRoad()
      END FUNCTION

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    20. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by Zalbik · · Score: 2

      I agree completely.

      This is also why I don't believe these "horseless carriages" will ever take off. Horses are actually pretty smart creatures. They don't want to run into obstacles, go over cliffs, etc. And they don't use any of these new-fangled "combustion engines" (which are basically filled with explosives!) to do their job. And these new "engines" have thousands of parts? Do you want to try and figure out what is wrong with one of these devices?

      To put it bluntly, raise your hand if YOU want to be the first carriage manufacturer to make a carriage for which you are potentially liable for any mechanical failures that occur in this vehicle, from the day it's sold until the day it's scrapped. Any takers? How much...etc etc...

      Similar arguments for trains, airplanes, medicine, robotic surgery, computers, etc.

      If you really think the potential for legal liability is going to prevent the chance to make a buck, I think you need to have a little talk with history.

    21. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by raygundan · · Score: 2

      Can you be sure the computer will handle all possible inputs correctly?

      Of course not. If we get serious about licensing and permitting these vehicles, I suspect the standard will be to compare them with the vast body of statistics we have from human drivers. As long as a company's cars are averaging fewer accidents per mile than humans do, it would be hard to argue that they're not safer, even if they still get in some accidents.

      People are terrible in all the ways you mention above and then some. Strokes, seizures, heart attacks, sneezing, blinking, stray eyelashes, muscle cramps, and aural migraines are just a few of the hardware failures that already cause plenty of accidents-- and that's before we get into the self-inflicted things like drinking, fatigue, and distraction. Toss in our limited sensorium, narrow field of view, crap night vision, and sluggish reflex loop, and we're really not looking good compared to hardware-- even if that hardware still has some failures and makes some mistakes. And as you point out, it certainly will. The only really important question is "does it fail less than people?"

    22. Re:Why I doubt driverless cars will ever happen by commander_gallium · · Score: 2

      You're very clever, young man, very clever, but it's error lights all the way down!

  2. Obvious Answer by Sparticus789 · · Score: 2

    Asimov already solved this problem for us.... the Three Laws of Robotics.

    Talk about redundancy, is the author's next piece going to be about changing the value of pi?

    --
    sudo make me a sandwich
    1. Re:Obvious Answer by ZankerH · · Score: 2

      How thick are you? Pretty much all of Asimov's works dealt with how ambiguous and incomplete the three laws were and how many horrible failure modes fall well within the domain of an intelligent machine following them to the letter. That was a warning not to oversimplify AI and machine ethics in general, not a blueprint.

    2. Re:Obvious Answer by dywolf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You never actually read Asimov.
      And if you did, you're the one that failed to grasp the points.
      The points he even clearly spells out in several of his own essays.

      Asimov wasn't writing about the ambiguity or incompleteness of the laws...he wrote the damn laws. And he did consider them a blueprint. He said so. And when MIT (and other) students began using his rules as a programming basis he was proud!!

      It wasnt a warning.

      Asimov was writing about robots as an engineering problem to be solved, period.
      The laws are basic simple concepts that solve 99% of the problems in engineering a robot.
      He then wrote science fiction stories dealing with the laws in the manner of good science fiction, that is to make you think about: the science itself, the consequences of science, the difference in human thinking and logical thinking, difference in human and robots...ie to think period.

      Example: in telling a robot to protect a human, how far should a robot go in protecting that human? Should he protect that human from self inflicted harm like smoking, at the expense of the persons freedom? In this case Asimov, again, wasnt writing about the dangers of the laws, or to warn people against them. He's writing about the classic question of "protection/security vs freedom", this time approached from the angle of the moral dilema (sp) placed on a "thinking machine" as it tries to carry out its directives.

      in fact Asimov frequently uses and explains things through the literary mechanics of his "electropsychological potential" (or whatever word he used was). In a nutshell its a numeric comparison: Directive 1 causes X amount of voltage potential, Directive 2 causes Y amount, and Directive 3 causes Z amount, and whichever of these is the largest determines the behaviour of the robot. In one story a malfunctioning robot was obeying Rule 3 (self-preservation) at the detriment of the other two, because the voltage of Rule 3 was abnormally large and overpowering the others.

      Again, he wrote about robots not as monsters or warnings. he specifically stated many times that his writings were in fact about the exact opposite: that they arent monsters, but engineering problems created by man and solved by man. since man created them, man is responsible for them, and their flaws. robots are an engineering problem and the rules are a simple elegant solution to control their behaviour (his words).

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    3. Re:Obvious Answer by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Asimov's laws were designed to create stories, not robots.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  3. Re:Blinky by Machtyn · · Score: 2

    Ahh, Vimeo isn't blocked. Here's the link http://vimeo.com/21216091

  4. No; Program laws into machines; Not morals. by LionKimbro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The proper sequence should be:

    Humans reason (with their morals) --> Humans write laws/code --> The laws/code go into the machines --> The machines execute the instructions.

    Laws are not a substitute for morals; they are the output from our moral reasoning.

  5. It's easy by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Funny

    1. Train an expert machine on decision making with answers from religious and political leaders who set all our definitions of right and wrong.
    2. Do the opposite of what that machine decides.

  6. Oblig Dark Star by Ol+Biscuitbarrel · · Score: 3, Informative

    How Do We Program Moral Machines?

    Ideally, not at the last moment.

  7. Jumping the Gun by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 2

    Ethics are a matter of conscious decision-making. Until we have conscious machines, we will not have ethical machines. What Marcus is writing about is the application of ethics in the design of machinery, which is a growing topic in its own right, but not nearly as click-inducing (or alliterative) as is 'moral machines'.

  8. But I value my own life over the lives of others by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So if my auto-driver car had to make a choice between my safety and that of someone else, it better choose me.

  9. Whose morals should we use? by djnanite · · Score: 2

    We can't even decide what is morally correct between ourselves as human beings. Take abortion for example...

  10. In the stated scenario, what? by ShooterNeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No competent engineer would even consider adding code to allow the automated car to consider swerving off the bridge. In fact, the internal database the automated car would need of terrain features (hard to "see" a huge dropoff like a bridge with sensors aboard the car) would have the sides of the bridge explicitly marked as a deadly obstacle.

    The car's internal mapping system of drivable parts of the surrounding environment would thus not allow it to even consider swerving in that direction. Instead, the car would crash if there were no other alternatives. Low level systems would prepare the vehicle as best as possible for the crash to maximize the chances the occupants survive.

    Or put another way : you design and engineer the systems in the car to make decisions that lead to a good outcome on average. You can't possibly prepare it for edge cases like dodging a bus with 40 people. Possibly the car might be able to estimate the likely size of another vehicle (by measuring the surface area of the front) and weight decisions that way (better to crash into another small car than an 18 wheeler) but not everything can be avoided.

    Automated cars won't be perfect. Sometimes, the perfect combination of bad decisions, bad weather, or just bad luck will cause fatal crashes. They will be a worthwhile investment if the chance of a fatal accident were SIGNIFICANTLY lower, such that virtually any human driver, no matter how skilled, would be better served riding in an automated vehicle. Maybe a 10x lower fatal accident rate would be an acceptable benchmark?

        If I were on the design team, I'd make 4 point restraints mandatory for the occupants, and design the vehicle for survivability in high speed crashes including from the side.

  11. Screw the bus by dywolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Screw the bus.
    I don't care about the bus.
    The bus is big and likely will barely feel the impact anyway.
    I care about the fact I don't want to die.
    Why would buy and use a machine that would choose to let me die?

    And I posit that the author has failed to consider freedom of travel, freedom of choice, and other basic individual rights/freedoms that mandating driverless cars would run over (pun intended).

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  12. Zeroth Law problem by xenoc_1 · · Score: 2

    Zeroth law problem.

    Depending on how many other "someone elses" there are. And possibly on an overall Human Value Score brought to you by TransUnion, Experian, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft, weighted by your Medical Insurance Information Bureau records - and theirs.

    1. Re:Zeroth Law problem by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      Depending on how many other "someone elses" there are. And possibly on an overall Human Value Score brought to you by TransUnion, Experian, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft, weighted by your Medical Insurance Information Bureau records - and theirs.

      Yeah, how many of these companies are going to take responsibility for deliberately instructing a car to kill someone in a particular scenario? It doesn't matter how many lives the maneuver saves (or what their Human Value Scores are) by avoiding a crash if it does something that has a 99% chance of killing the driver. Drivers (or families of drivers) will still sue, saying that if the car hadn't been following so close or driving so fast or whatever to begin with, no one would have had to die... thus the program was faulty.

      This is the real-life version of the "trolley problem." That is: if you're driving a trolley, and you see five people ahead on the track, and you know you'll kill them if you don't do something, would you switch tracks (there isn't time to stop) if you'll end up killing one person on that other track, who otherwise would have been fine and not involved in the accident at all?

      This isn't triage at a hospital, where everyone's dying and you just need to try to save a few lives where possible. Here, you're making a deliberate decision to (likely) kill one healthy person to save the lives of a few others. Except now the decision is made remotely or determined by the programming of the car in advance. This is the same utilitarian reasoning that can lead people to say we should kill a healthy person and harvest his organs if we know they could save the lives of five other people.

      I'm not saying I have moral answers to these problems, but I definitely don't think car manufacturers do either. And I certainly don't think car manufacturers are going to want to take on the liability for making such suicidal decisions on the behalf of drivers....

  13. Re:But I value my own life over the lives of other by SirGarlon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You, sir, are a good example of why driverless cars will make me safer.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  14. Product defect by snspdaarf · · Score: 2

    Wait. If the driverless car is so damn great, how did it let itself get into a situation where the only options are to hit the bus or drive off a bridge? I can make that kind of mistake on my own, thanks. I expect automated cars to avoid this kind of situation, else why bother having them?

    --
    Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
  15. Re:But I value my own life over the lives of other by SirGarlon · · Score: 2

    That probably came across as nastier than I wanted to be. :-( You probably haven't thought through the same scenarios I have -- for example, a group of pedestrians is crossing the street illegally and your choice is to plow through them or smash into a parked car at low speed which probably won't hurt you. For most people, that's an easy choice to make.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  16. Re:Weak bus? Also, "cost effective", not "moral" by michelcolman · · Score: 2

    Or just imagine the pranks by people jumping in front of cars to watch them veer into a lamp post. Even better, pick a narrow bridge, then three people jump in front of a car. Perfect murder!

  17. Re:Ask the human straight up by icebike · · Score: 2

    It's a choice the human driver would have to make, so when first starting your driverless car, it might as well prompt you with a series of moral questions like "should I crash into a bus or veer off a bridge if the situation arises?"

    Human drivers don't make these decisions in any moral way in the real world, so why would the program in anything into a car?

    Split second decisions are involved in any accident situation, or, the lack of the ability to decide, resulting in the default.
    Nobody ponders the morality of the situation when their life is on the line. Its all instinct from that point.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  18. Morality of driving by jdavidb · · Score: 2

    I'm going to disagree with this assertion about morality:

    it would immoral of you to drive, because the risk of you hurting yourself or another person will be far greater than if you allowed a machine to do the work

    The first charge is that this would be an immoral risk to take because you might hurt yourself. In my understanding of morality, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves which risks and consequences and injuries to themselves are immoral. For example, I would not go skydiving, but other people choose to do so. They are taking a risk I choose not to take, but I do not think they are immoral for taking the risk, and I do not think an increase in the magnitude of risk alters the morality of the situation, because they are risking themselves. As another example of higher risk, some people choose to try to circumnavigate the globe on solo fights or boat trips. This is a huge risk; some people have perished in the attempt. But the fact that they were risking serious hurt to themselves does not render their decision immoral.

    The second charge is that you are risking hurting another person. But again, this is their risk to take. They decide to travel on a road that includes other human drivers knowing that doing so incurs some risk of injury. Taking that risk is not immoral. As an analogous example, wrestlers or boxers choose to fight each other knowing that there is a risk of injury to each other, but doing so is not immoral because the risk is voluntarily accepted by each participant.

    Ideally, travelers could choose between a variety of competing travel arrangements, including roads that might choose to exclude human drivers for the safety of travelers, or roads that choose to allow them for those who desire to take that risk. What would be truly immoral would be to forcibly monopolize some or all of the transportation options, so that people do not have the freedom to create differing transportation alternatives that compete with one another. This would limit the choices of travelers such that some might have to take risks they do not want (e.g., roads with both human and automated drivers, because pure-automated roads are not available), or cannot choose to take risks that they find rewarding, such as choosing to drive when automated drivers are available.

    Dr. Walter Block has written an entire book on how the American highway system is currently subject to this kind of immoral forced monopolization, currently causing 40,000 needless traffic fatalities per year, and how the elimination of this immorality is entirely practical and beneficial.

  19. Legal Liability problem is not insurmountable. by Lashat · · Score: 2

    Google operates cars without human drivers in several states.

    Google has insurance.

    In 18 years, (or some statistical appropiate number given the number of data points) we can examine the operational history of these vehicles and compare to human drivers in the same geographic areas.

    --
    For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
    1. Re:Legal Liability problem is not insurmountable. by crazyjj · · Score: 2

      I believe the Google cars actually have drivers behind the wheels when they're out on the road (hovering their hands over the steering wheels should they need to take over). I've only ever seen them running truly driverless on closed tracks.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
  20. Progamming by Altanar · · Score: 2

    What I find particularly worrying is that, at least initially, many of the ethical choices programmed into these machines will have been written by people who tend to be heavy on the Aspergers side of empathy (as many technically inclined people are). Should we really be leaving decisions like this to people who literally can't understand how most of humanity behaves?

  21. It really is slightly disingenuous to ask by Bryansix · · Score: 2

    The actual cause of most accidents can be boiled down to one simple rule that is broken. That is "failure to yield". Most people drive like complete dicks because they think they are more important then everybody else on the road. The driverless system will not be driving like that in the first place so it will hardly ever get into a traffic collision and even when it does it will minimize the damage because its responses are not emotional.

  22. New meaning for "LLC" by ezakimak · · Score: 2

    Limited Liability Car!

  23. Er, please _read_ "I, Robot" by oGMo · · Score: 2

    (spoilers, if you've never read Asimov)

    Unlike the horrible movie, the book "I, Robot" was a series of short stories dealing with the ambiguity of the laws. (The movie was more some bizarre combination of "free the robots!" mixed with "the three laws are a lie".) Additionally, the ambiguity of the laws came up multiple times in the Robot/Foundation universe, such as in "The Naked Sun" and "The Robots of Dawn."

    The laws are paradoxically hard-and-fast yet ambiguous. In any case where any law is essentially violated (using one of the workarounds), the robots "go crazy" or die. This applies to the Zeroth Law; witness the end of Giskard due to the mere inability to determine if an action was harmful or not.

    In the end, it's something like a moral version of the Halting Problem. Even if you can define "harm" to the satisfaction of everyone, you can't determine if something ultimately leads to harm or not.

    --

    Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  24. Re:Weak bus? Also, "cost effective", not "moral" by slashkitty · · Score: 2

    Run out in front of an auto car and be able to kill the car's passengers? I don't think so.

    --
    -- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
  25. Locomotives, Trains, Rail Roads by bacon.frankfurter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why have cars at all if we aren't allowed to drive them? Rip up all the highways, and replace them with a gigantic autonomous rail system.

    But no...

    That's not what's at stake here. The truth is that if I'm not in control of my whereabouts anymore, then how can I be sure I'm making decisions for myself? Without a car, you might find yourself imprisoned by the distance your two feet can take you. Someone out there will applaud this along the same premise that "those who obey the law, have nothing to hide, and my gosh, if a driverless car prevents a CRIMINAL from driving to a crime, then the system pays for itself!", but that's not the point. It's not about morality, it's about control, and if someone is stopping me from driving my own car, then who's stopping them from driving theirs? When we fork over control of our transportation, then will come the day that we're isolated into districts, where the equivalent of passports will be needed from county to county. If the car won't let me drive it, how can I be sure that the car will obey me at all?

    If all the cars in the world are autonomous, and computer controlled, well gee... what's to stop "someone" (anyone) from turning them all into a gigantic autonomous system that (I'm about to Godwin this...) conveys everyone to a huge concentration camp set to autonomous genocide?

    It's not morality that the author is arguing in favor of.

    It's our own autonomy that he's arguing against.

    Someone will have control of these cars. Somewhere there will be levers.

    Let's not imagine these automatic apparatuses to be forces of nature beyond an individual human's control. These are contrived, artificial, unatural man-made objects, at their core mechanical.

  26. Short Answer - You Don't by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Morality is subjective.

    To "program morality" would be to engender a machine with the specific moral subset imbued upon it by its programmer.

    Thus, "machine morality" is actually "programmer morality."

    We each determine our own morals, which will occasionally conflict with one another.

    Forcing the public at large to follow a single person's idea of morality is, at the most basic level, an immoral act in itself.

    Thus, "moral machines" aren't really moral at all.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  27. Re:But I value my own life over the lives of other by Princeofcups · · Score: 2

    So if my auto-driver car had to make a choice between my safety and that of someone else, it better choose me.

    So you want every vehicle except yours programmed to harm you in preference to the other driver? What a fine society you envisage.

    Does no one read Hume any more, or do we just have such a volume of sociopathic mods these days?

    --
    The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.