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Senators Vow To Renew Bid For State Taxes On Remote Internet Sales

jfruh writes "A bipartisan group of U.S. Senators are working hard to make it legal for U.S. states to collect sales tax on any sales made to their residents, even if the sellers live elsewhere. They tried to add an amendment making the change to an unrelated defense appropriations bill, but the attempt was defeated. They have vowed to try again."

38 of 268 comments (clear)

  1. Um... by jasper160 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

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    No good deed goes unpunished.
    1. Re:Um... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right. Instead of spending locally

      I live in the capital of California. A few months ago, I spent an entire day looking for an alarm clock. Note: Not a limited class Mercedes. Note: Not a one of a kind Van Gogh. A fucking alarm clock. The only alarm clocks to be found were shoddy, cheap pieces of crap without a brand name. The majority of them were ridiculous 'phone docks'.

      Amazon? Ten minutes of searching, done.

      Instead of spending locally? You know why we're not spending locally? Because brick and mortar stores are fucking clueless.

      Aww, is da widdle Best Buy gonna close?

      Fuck off. We live in a global economy. I've no duty to support your failed business.

    2. Re:Um... by Toonol · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would speculate that those who pretend spending is the only problem probably ignore much of the past 15 years of government action.

      You mean the last fifteen years where spending has gone from 1.6 trillion to 3.7 trillion? Where total tax revenue is still at the highest it's ever been? Where we would have an instant surplus if we could simply bring the federal budget down to where it was in 2004?

    3. Re:Um... by emho24 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I live in the capital of California. I've no duty to support your failed business.

      And a lot of us believe that we have no duty to support your failed state.

      --
      You must gather your party before venturing forth.
    4. Re:Um... by medcalf · · Score: 2

      And if raising tax rates reduces revenue, as it generally does on the right side of the Laffer curve? And if raising tax rates reduces economic growth, as it generally does once taxes go beyond a certain point far below ours? I agree we need to freeze or, better yet, dramatically cut spending. But there is no way short of an economic collapse that it's going to happen.

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      -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
    5. Re:Um... by ducomputergeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I keep looking at all these projections of if we increase taxes on the wealthy how it will generate at most 20% of the revenue we need to close the fiscal gap. That tells me we aren't taxing our way out of this mess and while the increased taxes may help some, it's not going to be nearly enough. Spending needs an across the board massive cut on everything from defense to social spending. That's the ugly truth nobody wants to discuss.

      If I didn't know better I'd think both sides wants this fiscal cliff to happen. It's the only way I think they can actually enact the needed cuts and tax increases while both sides blame each other...

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    6. Re:Um... by mjr167 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I went to a local bookstore once to buy a book for a friend's birthday. They didn't have it. They could order it for me and get it in about 2-3 weeks. They were also charging $15. Amazon was able to have the book to me the next day for $10 cause their 2-day shipping often arrives in one day. And no, I have never paid for Amazon Prime- they keep giving it me for free.

    7. Re:Um... by medcalf · · Score: 2

      Tax revenue increased when tax rates were lowered under Bush. That's pretty strong evidence that we are on the right side of the Laffer curve. Obviously there are other factors complicating the situation, but fundamentally, if you cut tax rates and revenues increase, that means that you were previously taxing above the rate that generates maximum revenue.

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      -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
    8. Re:Um... by sconeu · · Score: 4, Informative

      Try again, loser. CA pays the feds quite a bit more than it gets back. *WE* are paying to support *YOUR* failed state.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  2. should be illegal by wbr1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unrelated riders on politically hot button bills and earmarks on important budget issues are how the most heinous of legislation is often passed. Should be illegal, but it will never be.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:should be illegal by artfulshrapnel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sure it will be. Eventually someone will slip a measure making it illegal onto a budget reform bill or approval for increased shoe wax allowance for interns. Then it will exist in a paradox state where it makes itself illegal.

  3. Creates a near monopoly by CloneRanger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By forcing web sites to collect sales tax for all 50 states and the territories will create an accounting nightmare. The only companies that can afford to hire the people to do it would be the dominant players like Amazon. So, all the small start ups would be stifled right out of the gate. The end result will be a near monopoly and very few start ups bringing new ideas to market.

    1. Re:Creates a near monopoly by paiute · · Score: 2

      By forcing web sites to collect sales tax for all 50 states and the territories will create an accounting nightmare. The only companies that can afford to hire the people to do it would be the dominant players like Amazon. So, all the small start ups would be stifled right out of the gate. The end result will be a near monopoly and very few start ups bringing new ideas to market.

      OK, independent of the question of good or evil, wouldn't that be an opportunity for a startup which offered that service to other startups?

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      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    2. Re:Creates a near monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      these companies exist but are very expensive. Probably because it's a nightmare to figure out what to charge for which address at what time for which product.

      The rules are beyond insane in one state alone for one company and one product, let alone trying to figure this out for a huge range of products. Also note that these tax zones are not split on zip code boundaries! Getting it wrong means huge liabilities...

      Source: I take care of sales taxes for two states.

    3. Re:Creates a near monopoly by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, in place of the many thousands of startups that will not get started because one more regulatory and financial hurdle has been put in their path, you are proposing that we settle for a single startup and call it a win?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    4. Re:Creates a near monopoly by V-similitude · · Score: 2

      As part of the bill, require any state that wants to participate to publish a public API that takes a dollar amount, a zip code (or address) and a product type and returns how much tax is owed. Done.

      It's absurd to call this a "nightmare". It's trivially solvable.

    5. Re:Creates a near monopoly by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

      "these companies exist but are very expensive. Probably because it's a nightmare to figure out what to charge for which address at what time for which product."

      No, they're very expensive because it's a nightmare to create it yourself from scratch. Once it's done once, it costs nothing to reproduce the tables/software. But because they know it would take $x to create from scratch, charging 0.25 x $x is a reasonable value proposition.

      The only possible positive outcome is that by requiring everyone to do it, it may entice more solutions, which will bring the prices down to the reasonable level for small-medium business.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    6. Re:Creates a near monopoly by ducomputergeek · · Score: 2

      It's not the calculation that's the problem. There are already several services that offer sales tax tables for the US. I know, we used one in a point of sale application at the last company I worked for and it cost us about $12,500 a year for a license (IIRC). The problem for a small business is the accounting nightmare of having to keep your books straight an ensuring each state gets paid its due. After I sold that last company I started buying vintage and antique furniture from estate sales and opened a small private, sale by appointment only showroom. I sell some local, but a lot of my sales are to larger dealers and customers out of the area. I probably spend between 5 - 10 hours a month doing book work now. Mostly I have to keep extremely good records incase I audited by the state sales tax because of my $90k in sales this year, only about 20% of it was to local residents which I collected taxes on. The rest were out of state purchases from my website, mostly to other dealers. In my state I get to keep a percentage of the sales tax "to cover the costs of collecting for the state". But if a law like this gets passed suddenly am I going to have to know the taxing laws for every state? Right now my accounting is simple enough I have to pay a CPA $800 to review my end of year statements to ensure that I deducted what I thought I could and to provide some protection against IRS Audit. If something like this got passed I have a feeling that would turn into $800 a month. Well that's about $10,000 in accounting costs a year added to my business. Okay, I did $90,000 in sales, but my inventory cost me around $35,000. Rent, utilities, insurance, travel, hiring movers for some of the items, marketing expenses was about another $15,000. Add in another $10,000 in accounting fees plus the added time plus hassles and it makes me start to wonder if I really want to keep doing this or not.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    7. Re:Creates a near monopoly by cob666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not JUST calculating the tax. Every business would have to have a Sales Tax ID for every state that collects sales tax, those aren't free and some states require you to pay a yearly renewal for said privilege. Also, many states require you to file quarterly, but not calendar quarterly, quarterly based on the state's fiscal year.

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      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    8. Re:Creates a near monopoly by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 2

      > sales tax for all 50 states and the territories will
      > create an accounting nightmare

      Oh, it's a whole lot worse than you realize. Cities, counties, multi-county "transportation districts", multi-city infrastructure districts, and like can all levy sales taxes too. Any and all of these, including the state, may chose to levy the tax only on certain goods, but not on others. They may have sales tax "holidays" certain times of the year; maybe for all goods maybe for just a few. For example, "back to school" sales tax holidays on various school supplies are fairly common each August. And all of these, and the hoops you'd have to go through to remit them, may change unpredictably at the whim of any of a thousand local governments.

      And there's no simple and easy way to do a lookup. First off, do you use the customer's residential, billing, or shipping address to decide what tax to levy? And once you have an address, how do you do a lookup? You can't use the ZIP code or even the city field of the address. Those fields are determined by the post office for its own convenience in planning delivery routes and may not conform to municipal borders at all. (I've first-have experience with this. I once lived with one town and regularly got a card in the mail requesting and reminding me to use the neighboring larger town, in which my local post office was located, as the city field in my address.) Obviously, the state field is not granular enough.

      What you'd need is an always up-to-date, nationwide, lookup of street addresses and the actual borders of every city, county, and miscellaneous tax district in all of the US; and what and when they tax and what's exempt and when. That sort of thing may be within the capabilities of a giant like Amazon. A startup? Not so much. This law would by a massive barrier to entry that would stop new internet businesses like a brick wall.

      And all that's just the practical difficulty. There's also the basic fairness issue. If I run a business in one place, with no physical presence in the other, why SHOULD I have to pay even a single penny to that other government... from which I receive no services and to which I have no representation?

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      Imagine all the people...
    9. Re:Creates a near monopoly by idontgno · · Score: 2

      No, they're very expensive because it's a nightmare to create it yourself from scratch. Once it's done once, it costs nothing to reproduce the tables/software. But because they know it would take $x to create from scratch, charging 0.25 x $x is a reasonable value proposition.

      But that's utterly, naively, massively ignorantly beside the point. "Reasonable value proposition" is lying dead under the wheels of the huge bus "What the market will bear" is driving.

      The "nightmare" of creating accurate, legally viable tax tables across literally thousands of tax jursidictions, plus the associated never-ending nightmare of keeping them current across those same thousands of tax jurisdictions, plus the omnipresent ubernightmare of liability if you get just ONE of those jurisdictions wrong... well, let's just say those are hellacious barriers to market entry, so those few companies already in the space pretty much have it to themselves. And under those circumstances, you'd have to be living in Pink Pony Unicorn Land to expect them to operate to a "reasonable value proposition". I think the correct expression for the business model is "squeeze it to the edge of extinction in order to milk it or as long as the near-monopoly lasts".

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    10. Re:Creates a near monopoly by stdarg · · Score: 2

      On the other, it's completely unfair to local businesses that do have to pay taxes

      Why is it unfair? The local business in Rhode Island is using local government resources -- fire, police, etc. The guy operating out of his garage in Utah selling to people in Rhode Island isn't using Rhode Island's fire, police, etc. And really, don't the local businesses in Rhode Island have the same opportunity to sell to people in Utah as the guy in Utah? So they can take advantage of the tax situation as well.

      If states are looking at shortfalls because of inter-state commerce, they should use other revenue sources. If a bunch of people in your state are evading local taxes by buying out of state, guess what, you can make that money up by raising their property taxes and income taxes. If a bunch of businesses in your state are evading local taxes by selling out of state, guess what, you can make that money up by raising their property taxes and income taxes, which they'll have to pass on to their out of state customers by raising prices.

      Why isn't that a fair solution?

  4. Democrats said, "We will not tax the Internet!" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Having heard, with my own ears, Democrat Senators and Congressperson tell the whole country that they would never support a tax on the Internet, I am surprised that they would so quickly change their highly proclaimed position.

    Of course, they promised me that I could retire with full Social Security benefits and have changed that also--now that they have raised the retirement age.
    They promised that Medicare would provide for senior health-care needs and the Democrat President is set to take $1,116,000,000,000 out of Medicare.
    I guess the cost of "Obama Phones" is more than expected.

    Those who propose and vote for Internet taxes have lied to the USA citizens and taxpayers. They have lost their morality (assuming that they had any to begin with.).

  5. Why is this a states issue?... by artfulshrapnel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems to me that the states shouldn't be trying to deal with the taxes on this, and instead congress should be doing it under the mantle of "Regulating Interstate Commerce". Pass a law that says all sellers must collect and report both federal and state income tax on sales as if the sale were occurring at the buyer's physical location, or the location to which the product is delivered. (Whichever is easier to make into an enforceable law).

    Simple, clean, unambiguous, very few loopholes, and understandable to customers.

    1. Re:Why is this a states issue?... by howardd21 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Seems to me that the states shouldn't be trying to deal with the taxes on this, and instead congress should be doing it under the mantle of "Regulating Interstate Commerce". Pass a law that says all sellers must collect and report both federal and state income tax on sales as if the sale were occurring at the buyer's physical location, or the location to which the product is delivered. (Whichever is easier to make into an enforceable law).

      Simple, clean, unambiguous, very few loopholes, and understandable to customers.

      It is anything BUT clean - it is a complete mess for businesses to try and figure out what tax to charge and who it gets sent to. It is not just 50 states, it is as you suggested the buyer's physical location, so every other tax on top also must be calculated, collected, and paid to the local parish, county, city, district, etc. And add in some audits by each of these taxing authorities. Paying local taxes is is easy when Mom and Pop hardware is selling to it's walk in customers, they pay the city, county, state and federal govt. And it is almost workable for a large corporation that pays for a top tier ERP system and adds a tool like vertex (expensive and must be maintained by a team). But your proposal just cut off any small - medium business that wants to sell beyond the physical locations they occupy. I hep you like Walmart, because they and others sized like them will be your online provider of products.

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      no comment
    2. Re:Why is this a states issue?... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      And a boatload of work for small startup companies. You seem to be unaware that many states do not have a single sales tax rate. Instead some states have a rate that varies according to what municipality you are in at the time of the sale. This is not something that can be determined by zip code as zip codes are not divided by local municipality boundaries but are instead determined by what post office the USPS delivers mail to that address from.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:Why is this a states issue?... by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      SCOTUS (especially the CJSCOTUS) seems to be willing to interpret the commerce clause fairly liberally. I have little hope of a solution there.

      We are in a tax-it-all era. Expect your overall tax burden to grow linearly for the next decade unless some course change occurs.

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      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    4. Re:Why is this a states issue?... by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      Here in Arizona we have multiple taxes, at state, county, and municipal level.

      But calling that a 'state' tax issue is misleading. It's the localities that really hose things up. And Phoenix goes one further, and taxes food at a different rate than merchandise. Yes, they tax food. And how they did it is even more disturbing than the fact that they do, but tha;'s the topic of several pages of posts, and not for this thread.

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      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  6. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

    Allowing the states to collect a tax isn't the same thing as imposing a tax. Not quite. Besides it's either that or the states will have to raise income and property taxes.

  7. States just want somebody else to be the bad guy. by lfp98 · · Score: 2

    If the states really wanted to collect all that sales tax, all they would have to do is enforce current law (requiring residents to pay the tax themselves) and increase the penalties for evasion. Random audits would reveal massive infraction - supposedly less than 1% of taxpayers in states requiring it report any internet or other purchases where the vendor did not charge tax. But they won't do this, they're too scared of the backlash from voters. In short, they want somebody else to do the dirty work for them.

  8. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Or they could just not spend without restraint in exchange for votes. I know, that's not an obvious solution nowadays.

  9. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by jythie · · Score: 2

    I guess they could promise to cut taxes without restraint in exchange for votes instead....

  10. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
    At the very least, is there a list of the senators voting for this measure so we can all vote them out of office?

    We don't need another fucking tax.....we got plenty.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  11. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by medcalf · · Score: 2

    Why so? If the problem is on the spending side (which appears almost beyond reasonable doubt), then raising taxe rates does nothing to fix the problem, instead just impoverishing the nation and, if we're on the right side of the Laffer curve (also almost beyond reasonable doubt), actually reducing the revenue generated by taxation. So where is the problem with Norquist, exactly?

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    -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
  12. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by sycodon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They want to raise taxes on the "rich" by 1.6 trillion over 10 years. That's about 180 billion a year.

    The deficit is well over a trillion a year, but let's just say it's only $1 trillion. That leaves $820 billion left to make up with cuts.

    This whole argument over taxing the rich is a waste of time and a distraction. I say let the raise it to where they want and then insist that Obama cuts $840 billion a year.

    If he doesn't then, we are just rearranging the deck chairs on that well known ship.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  13. Read the Bill First by Kagato · · Score: 2

    The legislation in question requires states to create a simple sales tax compact. This means all the merchant needs to know is the state to ship to. They don't have to worry about city, county, special tax zones and all the other stuff that brick and mortar operations have to comply with.

    Second, the legislation only applies to companies with large sales volumes online. It's not going to apply to some guy selling stuff on ebay.

    Finally, I don't see the accounting nightmare. Most shopping carts are designed to accept a sales tax table. Run a couple reports, cut some checks. If you're big enough for this law to apply, you're big enough to have a staff accountant.

  14. Re:The tax is technically on the buyers... by compro01 · · Score: 2

    It's not 6% of his income, it's 6% of an amount based on his income, which is between $4-70 or 0.08% of gross income if you make more than 100k/year.

    Details can be found on the actual tax form on page 3.

    If you bought more stuff from out of state that cost less than $1000 each purchase than the number in the table says, yes, it actually is cheaper.

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  15. Re:Where's Grover Norquist when you need him? by spiffmastercow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Allowing the states to collect a tax isn't the same thing as imposing a tax. Not quite. Besides it's either that or the states will have to raise income and property taxes.

    Then they should raise income or property taxes. Sales tax is about the worst tax there is -- it's regressive, so it hurts poor people disproportionally, and it depresses retail sales and services. If states really want their businesses to compete with amazon, they should abolish sales tax so that purchasing locally becomes more attractive.