Spinal Fluid Chemical Levels Linked To Suicidal Behavior

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Spinal Fluid Chemical Levels Linked To Suicidal Behavior

Posted by timothy on Saturday December 15, 2012 @05:25AM from the worth-looking-into dept.

An anonymous reader writes "For the first time, researchers have found that a chemical in the brain called glutamate is linked to suicidal behavior. While previous research and drugs have targeted serotonin to fight severe depression, this study shows that more attention should be paid to this chemical."

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Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. by Futurepower(R) · 2012-12-15 05:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

Medical Daily is not a reliable source, in my opinion. Is the publication paying for so many links to it? Does the owner of Slashdot, Dice Holdings, have a financial relationship with Medical Daily?
1. Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. by BeanThere · 2012-12-15 05:36 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  TFA contains a direct link to the original article in the journal Neuropsychopharmacology FFS, can we advance to the next stage of logical fallacies now ..
2. Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. by ColdWetDog · 2012-12-15 05:50 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  OK then, it's Bush's fault....
  The original FA (in the journal) has a reasonable abstract:
  
  The NMDA-receptor antagonist ketamine has proven efficient in reducing symptoms of suicidality, although the mechanisms explaining this effect have not been detailed in psychiatric patients. Recent evidence points towards a low-grade inflammation in brains of suicide victims. Inflammation leads to production of quinolinic acid (QUIN) and kynurenic acid (KYNA), an agonist and antagonist of the glutamatergic N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor, respectively. We here measured QUIN and KYNA in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of 64 medication-free suicide attempters and 36 controls, using gas chromatography mass spectrometry and high-performance liquid chromatography. We assessed the patients clinically using the Suicide Intent Scale and the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS). We found that QUIN, but not KYNA, was significantly elevated in the CSF of suicide attempters (p less than 0.001). As predicted, the increase in QUIN was associated with higher levels of CSF interleukin-6. Moreover, QUIN levels correlated with the total scores on Suicide Intent Scale. There was a significant decrease of QUIN in patients who came for follow-up lumbar punctures within 6 months after the suicide attempt. In summary, we here present clinical evidence of increased QUIN in the CSF of suicide attempters. An increased QUIN/KYNA quotient speaks in favor of an overall NMDA-receptor stimulation. The correlation between QUIN and the Suicide Intent Scale indicates that changes in glutamatergic neurotransmission could be specifically linked to suicidality. Our findings have important implications for the detection and specific treatment of suicidal patients, and might explain the observed remedial effects of ketamine.
  TL;DR - Suicidally depressed patients seem to have a low level inflammatory process going on. They measure two compounds (out of many) in spinal fluid samples of depressed and control patients that are part of the inflammatory pathway are related to the turnover of glutamate, an amino acid felt to be a neurotransmitter (first link the TFS, a nice short explanation). The glutamate agonist levels were higher in suicidal patients, the glutamate antagonist not.
  Potentially a method of quantitating level of suicideality which is a very problematic issue (witness the recent shootings in Connecticut). Very early data. Manuscript submitted but not accepted. At the level of interesting but don't run down to the local Szechuan restaurant and OD on MSG. Oh, and leave the ketamine to the vets.
  
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  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
3. Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. by ColdWetDog · 2012-12-15 05:51 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Forgot to add:
  Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
4. Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. by The_mad_linguist · 2012-12-15 07:20 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  glutamate, an amino acid felt to be a neurotransmitter
  Felt to be a neurotransmitter in the same way that hemoglobin is felt to be important to your circulatory system.
5. Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. by number6x · 2012-12-15 09:42 · Score: 2
  
  re-read the article. The people who attempted suicide had higher levels of glutamate:
  
  The research indicated that the patients who had attempted suicide had quinolinic levels that were twice as high as the controls had. That indicated that their glutamate levels were far higher than that of healthy people. The patients who had reported having the strongest desire to kill themselves also had the highest levels of quinolinic acid.
  So you should keep those burgers away from depressed people with easy access to knives. From the look of the article you linked to, It might do the Japanese some good to cut down as well.
And the antidote: by Opportunist · 2012-12-15 05:38 · Score: 3, Funny

Special K.
"No, officer, I'm not abusing drugs, I'm suicidal"

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
1. Re:And the antidote: by demonlapin · 2012-12-15 06:01 · Score: 2
  
  It is one hell of an antidepressant. Really.
Glutamate by Canjo · 2012-12-15 05:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Glutamate is one of the major neurotransmitters, involved in almost everything the brain does. Reading this summary is kind of like reading "Scientists have discovered that a mysterious substance called 'blood' is involved in heart disease...."
1. Re:Glutamate by oodaloop · 2012-12-15 05:59 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  It also overlooked the obvious correlation of suicide with dihydrogen monoxide. Not only has every person who committed suicide ingested this chemical, some even commit suicide by inhaling it!
  
  --
  Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
2. Re:Glutamate by Opportunist · 2012-12-15 06:02 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Yeah, I can see how thinking too hard can lead to depression in this world.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
3. Re:Glutamate by TeslaBoy · 2012-12-15 06:04 · Score: 2
  
  Indeed. Glutamate is THE MAIN neurotransmitter used by the brain. Drugs targetting glutamate transmission are very common, but because it is so fundamental to brain function, drug effects are very non-specific (wake up, fall asleep, or highly toxic). Medical Daily is clear not a reputable source.
Flavour enhancer by maxwell+demon · 2012-12-15 05:52 · Score: 2

Glutamate is a quite common flavour enhancer in processed food. Does that mean processed food can make you suicidal?

--
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
1. Re:Flavour enhancer by newcastlejon · 2012-12-15 06:37 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Glutamate is a quite common flavour enhancer in processed food. Does that mean processed food can make you suicidal?
  No, but it does explain why brains are so tasty.
  
  --
  If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
2. Re:Flavour enhancer by maxwell+demon · 2012-12-15 22:14 · Score: 2
  
  Reading your comment, I'm not sure that you know what you are talking about.
  Let's start with your last example, of sodium chloride. When solved in water, it is separately sodium ions and chloride ions. Sop yes, you are drinking chloride when you're drinking sodium chloride. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't drink (or eat) too much of it. Maybe you were confusing it with chlorine (same element, but neutral molecules; drinking that certainly is not a good idea, although at normal conditions it's a gas anyway, so you'd more likely breathe than drink it; of course breathing it isn't exactly healthy either).
  Now to sodium monoglutamate. The "sodium" part means there are sodium ions (unlike for anions, kations are not named differently from their neutral form; however it's quite clear that it doesn't contain netral, i.e. metallic, sodium). The "mono" in "monoglutamate" means that there there's just one glutamate per sodium ion. So it comes doen to what is meant with "glutamate" here. Since it is very unusual to name two completely different things the same name in chemistry, I strongly doubt that the glutamate in sodium monoglutamate is a different substance than the glutamate in the brain. Moreover the basic function of glutamate, namely being a flavour enhancer, fits quite well with it being a neurotransmitter. That's because it does not taste like meat, but it enhances the taste, effectively making the taste buds transmit a stronger signal. It makes sense that a neurotransmitter might have that effect.
  Does that suffice to imply that processed food makes you suicidal? Of course not. It just means that there might be a connection. That's why I formulated it as question, not as claim.
  tl;dr: Before accusing others not to know what they are talking about, you should make sure you know what you are talking about yourself.
  
  --
  The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Glutamate has become very common in modern food by dtjohnson · 2012-12-15 06:08 · Score: 3, Informative

Glutamate has become very common in all sorts of pre-cooked prepared foods...everything from canned soup to rice-a-roni mixes. It's usually added as something called "MSG" or monosodium glutamate although it is also often added under names such as 'hydrolyzed protein,' 'autolyzed protein,' 'sodium caseinate,' 'autolyzed yeast,' or 'yeast extract.' Food manufacturers have found that adding MSG has a powerful on flavor and makes consumers more likely to 'like' the food and consume greater quantities. A more scientific name for 'glutamate' is 'glutamic acid' and it is a common amino acid found in protein. Food manufacturers have argued successfully for years that since it is an amino acid found in protein, there should be no restrictions on its use. However, as TFA discusses, the quantity of glutamic acid consumed DOES matter and artificially spiking a variety of food with it to make the food taste better may be causing a lot of suicides. Perhaps the school shooter in Connecticut was a heavy consumer of something spiked with MSG such as, for example, many (although not all) varieties of potato chips.
1. Re:Glutamate has become very common in modern food by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-15 08:37 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Oh horrors, better start avoiding that unnatural glutamate. All meat, fish, cheese and tomato products are evil and full of that stuff! All that savory tasting stuff.
  The reason it tastes good is because it is one of the few things we have taste receptors for. We like added glutamate for the same reason we like all those hearty tasting stews, roasts, casseroles and such that naturally contain it.
  That scary sounding monosodium, disodium and such parts in front of the name are mostly irrelevant. They just sound scary but mean that the glutamic acid is added in it's a sodium salt form. (like the scary sounding sodium chloride, table salt)
  Simply said:
  Glutamic acid is an non-essential amino acid (an amino acid that the body also synthesises by itself) and pretty important for cellural metabolism and liver functions. Perfectly natural thing. The glutamate you eat doesn't magically start screwing up your brain.
  Since most mental states (and many problems) are caused by different balances of neurotransmitters it not strange that a change in glutamate balance affects the mind in some way. That is how the brain works. Eating added glutamate does not directly affect the amount of glutamate released in your neurons.
Glutamate linked to suicide? by Ralph+Spoilsport · 2012-12-15 06:13 · Score: 3, Funny

Then just lay off the cheap chinese food, and "things will get betterer"?
How does this account for all the people committing suicide in Finland? There aren't many cheap chinese food places there, but those people kill themselves all the time.
Monosodium? Whatever. Listen, I got an AGENDA to push, so don't get in the way with chemistry. The shit's like alchemy - bad for you.
We live in caves. We speak with our hands.

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