KDE Software Compilation 4.10 RC1 Released

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KDE Software Compilation 4.10 RC1 Released

Posted by Soulskill on Wednesday December 19, 2012 @10:00AM from the new-and-shiny dept.

jrepin writes "Today KDE released the first release candidate for its renewed Workspaces, Applications, and Development Platform. Thanks to the feedback from the betas, KDE already improved the quality noticeably. Further polishing new and old functionality will lead to a rock-stable, fast and beautiful release in January, 2013. One particular change in this RC is an updated look to Plasma workspaces."

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Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by bogaboga · 2012-12-19 10:09 · Score: 0, Flamebait

It's been a while, 3 years to be exact, since I last touched KDE. Has it improved in any measurable way at all? Is it worth a re-try? What will I find exciting? I am inclined to think, "nothing at all!"
1. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by colin_faber · 2012-12-19 10:24 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  To me, having used it exclusively for the last 6+ years, it's never been better. Very stable, everything works, and it's reasonably fast, even on my 1000PE Eee.
  With the right configuration, it can also be very pretty. If you really want to find out, grab the latest the Kubuntu 12.10 live cd and play around with it your self.
2. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by colin_faber · 2012-12-19 10:26 · Score: 1
  
  Whoops, meant 1005PE Eee!
3. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:32 · Score: 0
  
  There have definitely been speed improvements. Around KDE 4.5 and 4.6 there was a noticeably pick up from previous releases. Then again, around 4.8 the desktop got another boost. I run KDE 4.8 at the moment and the desktop reacts pretty much instantly to any input. it's quite slick.
4. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by bmo · 2012-12-19 10:34 · Score: 1
  
  > Has it improved in any measurable way at all?
  > I am inclined to think, "nothing at all!"
  Oh look at the cute little troll.
  --
  BMO
5. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by mx+b · 2012-12-19 10:37 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Absolutely. KDE has made many leaps in the past few releases. I fully recommend anyone that has been sitting out for the past couple years to give it a try again.
  Unfortunately, the release of 4.0 was a bit botched (rushed out to the public eye in a few distributions) before it was ready for prime time, but the KDE developers laid very good foundations that have been paying off greatly. It looks polished, runs quickly, and I think much of the KDE software is snappier and more useful than its GNOME equivalents.
6. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by AvitarX · 2012-12-19 10:50 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, 3 years is six point releases so, 4.9 (current) - .6 = 4.3.
  4.4 = first usable release. I'd call it RC quality.
  4.5 = what should of been .0 (2 years ag, Plasma would still crash some, but less than Win95 or 98SE, may have been my graphics)
  4.6 = stable and functions really working
  When they did the update for OpenGL ES it really got smoother, with less visual artifacts (this video shows what I mean by visual artifacts at 00:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIgEFIv5MI) Based on the date, that video is 4.3 or 4.4 I'm guessing.
  
  --
  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
7. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:54 · Score: 0
  
  Well it doesn't kill 50% of your 3d performance just by running which is quite an advantage over unity / gnome 3.
8. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 11:00 · Score: 0
  
  As a die hard KDE fan that was devastated by 4.1, they've got it back in order more or less since 4.7
9. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by dririan · 2012-12-19 12:42 · Score: 1
  
  Not sure about Unity, but even GNOME 3 has nowhere near that overhead in my experience. Sure, you take a hit, but 50% is insane.
10. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by icebike · 2012-12-19 13:33 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  To me, having used it exclusively for the last 6+ years, it's never been better.
  6+ years puts you into the long suffering crowd, (with me) to whom almost anything approximating stable earns high praise.
  Somewhere around 4.6 it actually became fully functional again. I can't wait to try RC1. There were many releases where I
  wouldn't dream of trying an RC?, having been bitten too often.
  It has been a long and bumpy road. One more upgrade like 4.0 would probably kill this project completely. Its not totally the KDE Team's fault,
  there were far too many Distros that jumped on way too early, making 4.0 the default, then claiming they really didn't.
  Some of the most obvious additions since KDE4, Activities, are still poorly understood, and under utilized. A very large subset of users ignore them all together, finding old-school multiple Desktops much more satisfactory for their work environment.
  
  --
  Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
11. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by johnsnails · 2012-12-19 14:11 · Score: 1
  
  I only have one complaint. The copy dialog box tends to change width when copying lots of files and then eventually settles down.
  
  Other than that its awesome!
  
  I used it at work and home.
12. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by fast+turtle · 2012-12-19 14:13 · Score: 1
  
  Have to disagree with you on the fault. It was the damn devs fault in the fact that they didn't listen to the users and used the Beta QT 4 to build the project.
  For example, the removal of the multiple desktops setting for the same single desktop paradign that MS has used since Win3. That was just one of the many features I used regularly - each desktop was devoted to specific work flows but they decided to duplicate Vista not only in looks but fucking performance. Hell I found that Konqureor worked better as a browser then Firefox for many of the sites I frequented since I could simply download directly into the right sub folders. Hell I even used the FTP feature that allowed me to treat that as simply a shared drive/network share. Then they introduced Dophin as the damn browser. PoS that is/was. Haven't looked back since switching to Fluxbox and dropping most of the KDE apps I used. Hell sylpheed works as well for email as kmail did.
  
  --
  Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
13. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by ApplePy · 2012-12-19 16:15 · Score: 1
  
  For example, the removal of the multiple desktops setting for the same single desktop paradign
  On Fedora: System Settings -> Workspace Behavior -> Virtual Desktops
  I'm pretty sure it's been there since 4.0. It was buggy then, but it's always had virtual desktops.
  
  --
  That I'm right, and you don't like it, doesn't mean I'm a troll.
14. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by allo · 2012-12-19 20:46 · Score: 2
  
  4.2 was the first good usable one. 4.0 was a disaster and 4.1 a fixup.
  But yeah, its getting better and better.
15. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-20 01:27 · Score: 0
  
  PEBCAK. Virtual desktops have been working on KDE4 since 4.0; or at least as well as KDE4 itself. The feature was never removed. Maybe your distro decided to use a default of one VD and you blame KDE.
16. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by monkeyhybrid · 2012-12-20 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I find that to be very annoying, especially when trying to scan over what files are being copied, etc.
  I'm still a few KDE versions behind (will upgrade over Christmas break hopefully). Has that been fixed in more recent versions?
17. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-20 07:11 · Score: 0
  
  yeah, 4.0 a beta, 4.2 a rc, 4.6 first stable. 4.12 best DE ever?
18. Re:Has its speed improved in any measurable way? by johnsnails · 2012-12-20 13:51 · Score: 1
  
  Nice to know it is not just me who experiences it.
Stable? by magic+maverick+ · 2012-12-19 10:09 · Score: 1, Insightful

I'm running Ubuntu 12.04. I tried Unity (for a few weeks to let it seep in), and really didn't get it, so I installed Gnome 3. It has it's flaws, many of which are solved by extensions. Recently I got sick of some of the limitations and decided to try KDE. An apt-get install kde-desktop later, and I can. Except that it seems to be incredibly unstable. I'd already installed some games (Konquest, Ksirk, etc.) and these also seemed to be buggy. E.g. go to the about menu and it crashes...
Well, KDE is buggy (at least on Ubuntu). I tried one of those widgets, the bouncing ball. It froze up my entire screen. And my computer is new (with an i7 CPU with loads of RAM). What with that and some other problems (I can't just recall) I gave up on KDE and went back to Gnome 3. Pity, Gnome 3 is limited as I said.
And if Debian just worked with my wireless, sound and touchscreen out of the box, I would use it instead. But it doesn't. Ubuntu does.

--
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
1. Re:Stable? by Tarlus · 2012-12-19 10:25 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I'd recommend going a non-Ubuntu route if you want to try KDE out. Kubuntu's implementation is not without its quirks and you may find that other distros offer a more polished (if not vanilla) KDE 4 experience which is actually quite pleasant.
  
  --
  /* No Comment */
2. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  Try Mint. It was 110% better on my laptop than Ubuntu.
3. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:33 · Score: 0
  
  Sorry to hear your bad experiences with Ubunut's KDE. I've been running Debian (I pick my hardware to run with it) with KDE 3.x since 2002 IIRC (replacing fvwm due to some stupid window rendering bugs) and never experienced KDE as unstable. Maybe because I disable compositing and use KDE mainly as a simple window manager. I only had some frustrations when Debian made a big mistake by switching to 4.0 to early, but these days I'm only missing some minor features once in a while.
4. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:33 · Score: 0
  
  I would suggest either installing another distro altogether or installing Kubuntu. Insalling the Ubuntu kde-desktop package leads to some really weird behaviour that is not typical of the KDE experience.
5. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:38 · Score: 0
  
  If you are trying to escape Ubuntu, note that Mint is Ubuntu based.
  Consider using Debian directly if you are really trying to get something more stable.
6. Re:Stable? by bmo · 2012-12-19 10:46 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  > Kubuntu's implementation is not without its quirks
  Friends don't let friends install kubuntu-desktop.
  On Ubuntu, install kde-full, or a selection of the other smaller meta-packages, or a combination of individual packages, etc. This also means not starting out with the Kubuntu distro disk, but rather going with vanilla Ubuntu and going from there. Installing kubuntu-desktop is always hit-or-miss, so it's best to just avoid it and go with your own settings imposed over the default instead of someone else's idea of "good settings." Back in the 4.2x days, this was apparent when Kubuntu's KDE was an unmitigated disaster while the Pardus distro had a spectacular setup, demonstrating that yes, someone could build KDE and not screw it up. These screwed up settings are always pulled in by the kubuntu-desktop metapackage.
  I have been using the KDE PPA on Ubuntu 12.04 without installing the kubuntu-desktop metapackage and it works fine.
  --
  BMO
7. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:49 · Score: 0
  
  "And if Debian just worked with my wireless, sound and touchscreen out of the box, I would use it instead. But it doesn't. Ubuntu does."
  I can't comment on touchscreen (or with any certainty about any hardware-specific issues you may have), but generally Debian's hardware support has been great in the last few years if you enable the non-free repo. I think I just had to do a "sudo aptitude install firmware-linux-nonfree" (or very similar) to get everything on my laptop working perfectly. That machine is running XFCE-4, but the desktop I'm posting from is a Debian KDE setup that I find nearly ideal.
8. Re:Stable? by mbc2000 · 2012-12-19 11:15 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Mint has a Debian edition.
9. Re:Stable? by Nerdfest · 2012-12-19 11:32 · Score: 1
  
  Seconded here. Also make sure you don't accidentally install the tablet stuff. I'm a recent KDE convert after using Gnome and Gnome-shell for five years. It's extremely stable, especially compared to the last couple of Gnome-shell releases. The downside is that more configuration is required to get things just as you like ... the upside is that it's actually possible. The developers don't have the "you'll do things our way and you'll like it" attitude.
10. Re:Stable? by daniel23 · 2012-12-19 11:57 · Score: 1
  
  funny that you would recommend debian for a good KDE experience. KDE issues were the reason I moved from debian wheezy) to arch on the desktop and suddenly all my pet quirks are gone. Just look at kdepim and all the version mixing debian does here, essentially keeping kdepim frozen at some ancient level (4.5x, if memory serves me right) which just doesn't work. Just try syncing a google calendar account (with many different calendars) to KOrganizer and you see what I mean.
  At some point in time I had enough of feeling like a second class debian citizen with KDE treated like a unbeloved step child in so many ways.
  The first steps with arch are a bit rough but once you have it set up KDE runs so much better. KDE is covered in the (excellent) wiki documentation and I don't need a cron job to delete ~/.xsession-errors just to keep it from flooding my home partition.
  That said, there are some distros that come with KDE as the default DE and thus promise a more polished experience. SuSE for one.
  
  --
  605413? Yes, it's a prime.
11. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 12:42 · Score: 0
  
  I did something like this on a 12.10 installation, though without the gnome3 step and using kbuntu-desktop rather than kde-plasma-desktop, i must say that i'm not finding kde that buggy, but there are little niggling issues and then the massive cock-ups, like policykit authentication of any kde component not working, so that if i want to use the update or package manager, i have to start it with kdesudo, rather than just clicking on the notification, i may just need to install some extra libraries, but i pulled in kbuntu-desktop, surely it shouldn't be broken by default.
12. Re:Stable? by dririan · 2012-12-19 12:45 · Score: 1
  
  It's true that Mint uses Ubuntu's packages (as well as some of its own), but at least Mint escapes the Unity insanity. Canonical has shown no signs of letting up with the crazy, as seen with the Amazon search integration nonsense. That doesn't mean their packages are faulty.
13. Re:Stable? by dririan · 2012-12-19 12:46 · Score: 1
  
  I agree that initial configuration for KDE generally takes a bit more effort than some other DEs (if you want any of the fancy things), but you have to admit that KDE out of the box is far more usable than Unity is no matter what you do to it...
14. Re:Stable? by Nerdfest · 2012-12-19 12:55 · Score: 1
  
  Yep. Unity is too slow, and flawed in design in a couple of fairly major ways.
15. Re:Stable? by rewarp · 2012-12-19 14:19 · Score: 2
  
  I am running KDE 4.9 off the backports PPA on Ubuntu 12.04. I had my reservations, but after two weeks of fiddling with the settings (Praise the Goddess Madoka for the blinding array of options) I have finally attained the desktop interface of my dreams. After the disaster of installing the supposedly stable kubuntu-desktop a year ago, I figured why not go for the latest package instead, and it was in hindsight a much better choice.
  
  --
  In adding a sig, for no other reason, than for aesthetics.
16. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 15:27 · Score: 1
  
  I'd recommend going a non-Ubuntu route if you want to try KDE out. Kubuntu's implementation is not without its quirks and you may find that other distros offer a more polished (if not vanilla) KDE 4 experience which is actually quite pleasant.
  Mod this up. The best KDE experience is #1 openSUSE or #2 Mageia.
  KDE User since KDE 2.2.0
17. Re:Stable? by ApplePy · 2012-12-19 16:28 · Score: 1
  
  And if Debian just worked with my wireless, sound and touchscreen out of the box, I would use it instead. But it doesn't. Ubuntu does.
  I've been running Fedora+KDE happily for several years now. And with the RPM Fusion repos, I've had no unsupported hardware for at least 3 years. I have to turn off compositing on my antique laptop, but that's about it. I've set up dozens of machines with the same.
  Turned an Ubuntu-using friend on to KDE couple weeks ago. Buggy as hell. Pretty sure it's the Ubuntu. But it's okay; he's new to our world. Ubuntu is like training wheels for Linux.
  On another note, I tried Mint to see what the fuss was about. Nice, but their version of NFS won't play with my Fedora boxes. WTF? How do you break NFS?
  
  --
  That I'm right, and you don't like it, doesn't mean I'm a troll.
18. Re:Stable? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 20:15 · Score: 0
  
  Friends don't let friends install kubuntu-desktop.
  Can I ask what is so wrong about the kubuntu-desktop package/settings?
  I've been using that for a while and haven't had any major issues, but based on your comments it looks like I'm missing something here...
19. Re:Stable? by allo · 2012-12-19 20:49 · Score: 1
  
  that was true for kubuntu 6.x or 8.x (dunno), where they patched a lot of stuff like ayatana and so on.
  But since they said "kubuntu is only second priority", kubuntu just ships vanilla KDE. you may want to use kde-full additionally, to get the whole apps, and not only the ones which are selected for the kubuntu-desktop.
20. Re:Stable? by allo · 2012-12-19 20:58 · Score: 1
  
  But they dictate the direction. And they do stuff like patching gtk3 for better support of unity.
21. Re:Stable? by BrokenHalo · 2012-12-19 21:59 · Score: 1
  
  I used to be a more or less diehard Gnome user from pre-1.0 to 2.x, but deserted when 3.0 came along. KDE is no longer the kluttered, kfugly kthing it used to be, and I've been pretty happy for the last year with KDE (in combination with compiz) on Arch. Currently at 4.9 on this distro, it's as slick as I could ever want.
22. Re:Stable? by muuh-gnu · 2012-12-20 00:32 · Score: 1
  
  > Canonical has shown no signs of letting up with the crazy
  Unity is by far not as unusable and "different" as all the haters make it up to be. In its essence, it a reimplementation of WindowMaker with desktop icons.
  I've had Windows users without _any_ prior Linux experience use it intuitively without any difficulty or complaints whatsoever.
  The only people who complain about Unity are those who cant believe that Gnome2 was killed and desperately want it back. I know that because I was one of them. Until I actually used Unity for a longer period of time and found out that my prior complaints were just emotional rage about the killing of Gnome2 and not about Unity itself. Unity itself is perfectly usable for day to day work.
  But it was not Canonical who killed Gnome2, the Gnome people themselves did that and they are to blame. It was and is in Canonicals best interest to cut as many ties to Gnome as possible because Gnome definitely jumped the shark and the Gnome people lost their way, their mind and their sanity.
23. Re:Stable? by bmo · 2012-12-20 02:45 · Score: 1
  
  >Can I ask what is so wrong about the kubuntu-desktop package/settings?
  There are too many things to list.
  The only thing I can say is to do it yourself. Install kde-full by itself, and then do a separate install of kubuntu and compare. It is less drastic today than it used to be, but I've been burned far too many times to give kubuntu-desktop any more chances.
  >but based on your comments it looks like I'm missing something here...
  You are.
  --
  BMO
24. Re:Stable? by yahwotqa · 2012-12-20 04:25 · Score: 2
  
  You could just mention few most jarring ones. Your post wouldn't look like empty FUD then.
25. Re:Stable? by bmo · 2012-12-20 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  Ok, I'll just mention a couple.
  "Recomends:" abuse. Rampant, idiotic Recommends.
  Here's another one: Sometimes when you remove something you don't want that should not depend on anything whatsoever (like a KDE game), it causes a cascade of derpage when you type "sudo apt-get autoremove" basically removing the entire desktop all the way back to nothing necessitting setting a bunch of things as "manually installed." Because some idiot set a hard dependency between the game and one of the basic libraries on removal.
  You can take your accusation of FUD and cram it. I'm tired of watching the Kubuntu team fuck things up. I was enlightened one day years ago by installing Pardus which had 4.2.x, and every little thing worked. There is no excuse, absolutely none, for a bad KDE setup if a small band of Turkish IT dweebs *in their unpaid spare time* could set up KDE back when KDE had an awful reputation because the Kubuntu group couldn't find their arses with both hands.
  Yes, I'm mad. It almost seemed that the Kubuntu team was deliberately sabotaging KDE.
  It's not as bad now as it was, but my patience is worn out. No more slack is given. I install KDE without touching kubuntu-desktop and things just work.
  --
  BMO
26. Re:Stable? by dririan · 2012-12-20 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  I'm hardly a "hater" of it. Hell, I've used it since UNR, before it was even called Unity. It's great for netbooks and tablets, decent on laptops, sketchy on desktops, and absolutely horrible for multi-monitor desktops. That being said, if you're not willing to use Unity almost exactly how it's shipped, then it's useless to you because it's simply not configurable.
27. Re:Stable? by yahwotqa · 2012-12-20 21:24 · Score: 1
  
  Apologies, my suggestion wasn't intended to be mean or insulting. It's just that posts like yours ("it's bad because I say so, but I won't tell you why") are dime a dozen on slashdot, and they really add little value
  Thank you for the follow-up, though.
28. Re:Stable? by bmo · 2012-12-21 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  Then I take back being offended.
  It's just that the Kubuntu team has had a wide reputation (fairly earned, imo) for not being the sharpest knives in the drawer. I'm not quite sure who to blame, be it Shuttleworth giving KDE short shrift and not supervising the Kubuntu team when it needed it, or the Kubuntu team under Shuttleworth ignoring his directives without enough planning.
  The adoption of KDE 4.0 with no fallback to 3.5.10, when it came out was the harbinger of things to come. The KDE devs clearly told everyone who mattered that 4.0 wasn't ready for prime-time, but the Kubuntu team forced the issue anyway. I actually also lost mail because of it, since new 4.x blank kmail folders overwrote earlier ones. I mean, come on, guys. (I have since migrated to IMAP folders so this isn't even an issue anymore)
  Things cleared up somewhat later, but even this past year Kubuntu-Desktop had enough flakiness for me to nuke and pave a new KDE desktop without Kubuntu shenanigans after giving it a try again.
  And then I look at Pardus and wish that the Pardus team was the Kubuntu team. Honestly, they do an excellent job. Pardus is underrated, and if they went to a Debian style as opposed to their home-rolled diff-based package management, I'd switch in a New York second.
  --
  BMO
29. Re:Stable? by yahwotqa · 2012-12-21 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  I know about the 4.0 fiasco, kubuntu was the prominent distro pushing it despite KDE team's advice, but I thought things have settled since then. At least on Debian, current KDE is awesome.
  This Pardus thing looks interesting enough to give it a try in a virtual machine, thanks.
30. Re:Stable? by dririan · 2012-12-22 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not terribly sure what you mean by that. The moronic scrollbars are the only thing I know of, and that's even a separate package (which if you uninstall, or never install in the first place, you'll get the normal GTK+ scrollbar). What does Canonical do to GTK+ 3 that affects it outside of Unity?
31. Re:Stable? by allo · 2012-12-22 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  i only know (second hand), that they patch gtk+ to work better with unity. I do not know, if it affects other applications, nothing i would have noted on kubuntu, yet.
I think KDE by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:12 · Score: 4, Informative

is the most interesting DE out of the FOSS choices. Enlightenment would be a close second. KDE has everything but the kitchen sink, and it has Kate, a rocking text editor as well as well as K3B, likely the best burning software in FOSS.
Kudos to KDE!
Good experience with 4.8 by luckymae · 2012-12-19 10:21 · Score: 0

I love the 4.8 (including Dolphin FM & Amarok, can't live without it), looking forward to this! Definitely 100x better than Gnome3/2/Unity!
Rock-Stability by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:23 · Score: 0

It seems to me that the KDE team with its efforts on continuous integration and testing takes the long road towards rock-stability.
It is decided by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:31 · Score: 0

KDE obsoletes GNOME
Dupe? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-19 10:32 · Score: 0, Funny

Isn't this a dupe? They already released 4.1 years ago.
1. Re:Dupe? by Ian+Alexander · 2012-12-19 13:16 · Score: 2
  
  That's not decimal numbering (where 4.10 would be a more precise expression of 4.1), it's literally 4 dot 10, where the ten represents the minor version number of KDE 4. Took me some time to get used to it, but other projects do this, too. The Linux kernel in particular does this.
Software complication by naranek · 2012-12-19 18:54 · Score: 1

Did anyone else read the title as KDE Software Complication 4.10 RC1?

--
Only dumb birds land downwind.
1. Re:Software complication by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-20 01:31 · Score: 0
  
  No.