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World's Oldest Wooden Water Wells Discovered

An anonymous reader writes "Researchers have discovered four wooden water wells in the Greater Leipzig region, Germany, which are believed to be the oldest known timber constructions in the world. A team of experts led by Willy Tegel and Dr. Dietrich Hakelberg from the Institute of Forest Growth of the University of Freiburg, Germany, uncovered the wells built during the early Neolithic period between the years 5206 and 5098 B.C." The (quite short) paper itself, and some cool pictures of the artifacts, are freely available.

50 comments

  1. Wooden Water Well by MrKaos · · Score: 3, Funny

    Thus solving the mystery of neolithic web access.

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  2. the Institute of Forest Growth... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I'm a tenured professor of composting.

  3. Start of another patent dispute? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    May the Lincoln Log patent dispute begin in 3...2...1...

  4. It could be built by the neanderthals by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 0

    Neanderthal were still plentiful in Europe around 7K to 5K BC

    The wells could have been built by the Neanderthals

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    1. Re:It could be built by the neanderthals by Fusselwurm · · Score: 2

      Neanderthal were still plentiful in Europe around 7K to 5K BC

      No, they were not. Neanderthals died out about 25ka ago.

    2. Re:It could be built by the neanderthals by CdBee · · Score: 1

      Has the timeline been changed by better archaeology or dating, or reclassification of remains? when I was at school (only 2 decades ago, in the UK) I was taught that the last Neanderthals died out around the time of the construction of the Pyramids in Egypt, no more than 6000 years ago

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    3. Re:It could be built by the neanderthals by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Neanderthal were still plentiful in Europe around 7K to 5K BC

      No, they were not. Neanderthals died out about 25ka ago.

      It was their healthcare that did it.

    4. Re:It could be built by the neanderthals by rossdee · · Score: 1

      Geico thought the Neanderthals had died out too, but they were proved wrong.

      Anyway wouldn't the earliest surviving wells be made of stone

    5. Re:It could be built by the neanderthals by Sulphur · · Score: 2

      Geico thought the Neanderthals had died out too, but they were proved wrong.

      Anyway wouldn't the earliest surviving wells be made of stone

      Of course, but the earliest surviving wooden wells ...

    6. Re:It could be built by the neanderthals by Fusselwurm · · Score: 2

      Has the timeline been changed by better archaeology or dating, or reclassification of remains? when I was at school (only 2 decades ago, in the UK) I was taught that the last Neanderthals died out around the time of the construction of the Pyramids in Egypt, no more than 6000 years ago

      Just asked my sis (who sports a B.A. in prehistoric archaeology )... according to her, you must've had a very strange teacher -- historically, the figure for "how long ago did they die out" has been creeping down as more and more recent specimen were found. At no time did people think it was just 6ka ago.

  5. Re:TEMPEST !! Bleeds from LCD monitor go to FRS RF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sounds like you got to much spare time, don't you have any family to go to with Christmas and all?

  6. This isn't Verbo City! by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 2

    So you typed all that in didn't you.
    I had mod points but I'm going instead to tell you
    this is slashdot. Slash! Period.

  7. Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just had a look at the photos and I'm convinced this is not a first time invention. This must be the result of a lot of previous attempts, just looking at how the wooden parts are connected: pin in hole, and another pin to prevent it from falling out again. That's technology that's still being used in wood construction.

    Very likely these people were building wells and other wood constructions for quite some time already., this looks rather advanced It's just that wood doesn't preserve very well, so most will be lost by now., and we don't have any older and more primitive examples of such construction.

    No surprise though that what is found is a well, as wells are of course rather like to fill up with dirt and end up under water, preserving the wood.

    1. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just had a look at the photos and I'm convinced this is not a first time invention.

      I'm sure you're right, but I think the point is this is the oldest they've found... so far.

      And it makes a nice datapoint concerning prehistoric human migration patterns.

    2. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by umghhh · · Score: 1, Funny

      important is that the well does not have round corners so apple cannot sue.

    3. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please shut up.

    4. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by jittles · · Score: 2

      No surprise though that what is found is a well, as wells are of course rather like to fill up with dirt and end up under water, preserving the wood.

      Dirt and water touching wood is about the worst possible combination you could have. If you've ever put in a fence or any other outdoor wooden structure, you know that the most important thing to do is to make sure that you poor cement into the post holes, and that the cement completely envelops the wood so it doesn't touch the dirt. Otherwise, you will get bugs and other such creatures attacking the wood from below. It will also rot faster as well.

      Now it could be that they had some technique to avoid pest infestation and rot, or it could just be that the hole was deep enough that the bugs didn't typically hang out as low as the wood went, I don't know. But in general water + dirt + wood don't mix well!

    5. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is a common misconception that ancient people were not smart, or talented.
      They are just like people today, they have a problem to solve they will invent a method to solve it.
      Many of the scientific advancements happened by accident. Finding the some rocks melt and create a shiny strong metal, once they found out metal, they rather quickly put it to use.
      Before that they mixed hide wood and stone to make many tools that are rather useful.
      The biggest advancements were due to rises of large cultures and cities, that allowed people to obtain time, and resources to make grander things. However it, isn't that the ancient people were too stupid to not building a grand building, but they weren't in a large enough culture to have resources shared to give them free time to go and create such a device. A well would probably take days or weeks of digging, and reinforcing, it probably took a coordinated effort where the labors were to get some extra food for their work, that they didn't hunt themselves, or they choose to do a little less hunting every day and sacrificed to make a well that will give them constant water supply.

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    6. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Dirt and water touching wood is about the worst possible combination you could have."

      Yes and no, The reason why wood degrades in the situation you are referring to is that there is a boundary layer between the dry & wet portions of the wood, giving insects, bacteria & various fungus an environment to flourish. Kind of like having a food source (corn, wheat, etc) and a water source (lake, creek, river) close together for animals. If you completely submerge the wood you remove one or more of the essential elements in making the wood a survivable environment. Think of it like locking an animal in a room with a massive amount of food, sure it will consume some of it but within a few days it'll die and the rest of will remain as long as the environment is sealed.

    7. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it might qualify as prior art, though

    8. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Azghoul · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was just thinking the same thing (particularly the pinned tenon joints) and it pretty much blew my mind.

      Something good to talk about with fellow woodworking relatives over the next couple days of endless family time!

    9. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is why people log rivers from the bottoms of lakes and what not, and the wood is damn expensive

    10. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I'm finding impressive is the evidence of just how old the mortise and tenon joint really is. It's completely identical in this well down to the wedge shaped pin.

    11. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you aren't familiar with the laws of stupid careers with zero profit margin. The golden rule is make your headline as outrageous and reader-baiting as possible or you don't get any more grant money. There are whole Discovery channel documentaries about dark matter even though it's a math error and they star "celebrity" scientists and theorists who definitely have that rule understood.

    12. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      What's interesting is that this is modded so high up and yet it's clear you've never dug a hole nor done any carpentry. The most time consuming part would be felling the 1m diameter oak trees and notching them. Digging a hole, even upto 7m deep, isn't very time consuming given the loose type of soil they're digging in. Splitting is pretty rapid, though not sure how wooden wedges compare to metal, but given that the splitting depends more on how wood is designed and less about what is splitting it, shouldn't make too much of a difference.

      It was probably done by several people but one person could still do it in a few weeks... as long as they don't work as slow as modern construction workers. Given the detail of the scans that they took of all the boards they should be able to examine the tool marks to determine whether this was one specialist shaping boards or just random people.

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    13. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Alomex · · Score: 1

      However there was a big leap in the sophistication of known solutions with the invention of the printed press. Now all these ancient people could work om improving each other's state of the art inventions rather than reinventing the wheel over and over again.Seriously, this is a known and well studied effect.

    14. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      These wells were built by agrarian people, not hunter gatherers. The big gotcha of this article is that until recently they thought advanced wood working like this didn't happen until a thousand years or so later. While this article points out that these ancient people were doing advanced woodwork almost as soon as they settled down. I suppose it's entirely possible that they did actually already have these skills before they settled into an agrarian lifestyle. If there was any evidence of to that affect though it's hard to imagine how it could survive to our day. These works only survived because they were submerged in a low oxygen environment for the ensuing thousands of years.

    15. Re:Oldest known - definitely not oldest ever made by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      The city of Amsterdam is built on top of millions of wooden poles, no concrete around them, just dirt and water. The reason they do not rot is (like what will happen at least to the bottom of a well) is that they are completely submerged. Lowering the water table under the city would have disastrous effects.

  8. Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I never thought you guys would find that.

  9. Ancient wells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No matter. Every question they answer will simply lead to another question.

  10. Re:4004 BC by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    And how do they know for sure? Where they there?

  11. Well, well, well... by Richy_T · · Score: 2

    Err, well.

    1. Re:Well, well, well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's very deep.

  12. PIss poor pictures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Piss poor pictures at the link.

  13. Please note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The (quite short) paper itself..."

    Big on data, small on bullshit = actual science.

    1. Re:Please note by Spykk · · Score: 1

      Big on data, small on bullshit = actual science = no grant money

      If they aren't going to tell me how these wells cause cancer and kill children then I don't want to hear about them.

  14. When do you get to throw the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the scientist out with the bathwater? I thought those issues were settled long ago. Finding a well, neat, dating the logs with carbondating, real neat, having a section of oak from then, really neat. Use of tools by an established culture, in a farm setting, is mainstay of agriulture. You gotta hqve tools to work the ground. period.You got to have tools period. to survive.Period.
    After the abstract, i felt i had the wool pulled over my eyes, for some reason, why?

  15. It looks like some serious by mark_reh · · Score: 0

    prior art against the company that makes Lincoln Logs. They better call their IP lawyers ASAP!

  16. Re:4004 BC by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0

    Obviously, they were there to dig up the wells, take pictures, take measurements, etc. I think you meant to ask, "Were they then?" rather than "Where they there?" Or, maybe you meant, "Where they then?" Dang, your grammar has me wondering what you really did mean to ask!

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  17. Re:TEMPEST !! Bleeds from LCD monitor go to FRS RF by slashchuck · · Score: 1

    TLDR

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  18. Well construction technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TFA doesn't explain how they built the well. Did they dig straight down and line the well as they went? Did they dig a large open pit and then backfill around the well lining? I'm very curious about this as both approaches have different risk/reward structures. I wonder if analysis of the surrounding soil could determine the method used (e.g., if soil is not stratified the same for a certain radius around the well as it is farther out it would suggest the "dig a large pit then backfill" method).

    1. Re:Well construction technique by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      It's not too clear in the paper, but it appears they built a larger reinforced hole and backfilled around the either circular or square well lining. It's not clear how big the space around the well lining is though with loose packed soil and going down 7m in some cases you're going to need a big enough hole not to inter yourself.

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  19. Re:TEMPEST !! Bleeds from LCD monitor go to FRS RF by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    Says the guy trolling slashdot anonymously.

  20. reply by newnewshop · · Score: 1

    I have a question, Why use wood wells ?Wood, when flooding a long time, will it not be corrosion? And the well can not be used? Am I right? It is just my indissoluble question.

    1. Re:reply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wood, when completely submerged, lasts a very long time, and it's easier to work with than stone.