Slashdot Mirror
'Gorilla Arm' Will Keep Touch Screens From Taking Over
Hugh Pickens writes "With Windows 8, Microsoft has made a billion-dollar gamble that personal computing is taking a new direction and that new direction is touch, says David Pogue. It's efficient on a touchscreen tablet. But Microsoft expects us to run Windows 8 on our tens of millions of everyday PCs. Although touch has been incredibly successful on our phones, tablets, airport kiosks and cash machines, Pogue says touch will never take over on PCs. The reason? Gorilla Arms. There are three big differences between tablet screens and a PC's screen: angle, distance and time interval. The problem is 'the tingling ache that [comes] from extending my right arm to manipulate that screen for hours, an affliction that has earned the nickname of gorilla arm.' Some experts say gorilla arm is what killed touch computing during its first wave in the early 1980s but Microsoft is betting that Windows 8 will be so attractive that we won't mind touching our PC screens, at least until the PC concept fades away entirely. 'My belief is that touch screens make sense on mobile computers but not on stationary ones,' concludes Pogue. 'Microsoft is making a gigantic bet that I'm wrong.'"
It doesn't need assistance from physiology. ;-)
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
It hurts like hell to use a touch screen for hours.
So what large vertical desktop displays even have touch screens? Sounds like they are talking about hardware that shows absolutely no sign of happening.
Since you're on Slashdot, like me, you have no life and you probably eat lunch sitting at your desk with crap on your hands. I have no need to smear all that over my monitor. With tablets and phones, it's ok because you can grab a corner of your shirt and clean it off. I'm not going to flash my monitor to wipe off my burger grease.
There may be no "I" in team, but there's also no "F" in way.
I use my iPad regularly for work, for extended periods of time sometimes. As an extremely portable platform, it isn't all that bad for typing larger amounts of text, though it is not ideal. I've tried using it as a mini laptop by standing it upright and using a Bluetooth keyboard. That's the setup that Microsoft envision, apparently. And you know what? Turns out the thing that I've been missing most on my iPad when using it standalone for typing/drawing isn't a keyboard. It's a mouse, or at least a trackpad. A mouse offers precision and speed; no click and hold necessary since a mouse has buttons. A touchscreen is more useful on other cases perhaps, but or a lot of common tasks it can't beat a mouse.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
I already get irate if someone feels the need to molest my screen with his greasy, grubby paws. Now these imbeciles should have an excuse for it? No way.
Seriously, that's more a reason to avoid touch screens at all cost more than gorilla arm syndrome could.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Is it like the sweaty Ballmer's Arms? Or would that be Monkey-Arm?
Why would Ballmer be taking such a big risk to destroy Windows completely? Is he insane, or just way too much over-confident that whatever shit he imposes on his billion-strong user base, they will just lap it up for ever? Why not make 'touch' an option for those who like it, and continue with the Classic keyboard-mouse interface for the rest of the sane computing world?
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
The biggest problem I have with my Galaxy Tab is sites that rely on mouse over messages and mouse over drop down menus. Since there is no mouse cursor, I can't activate the message or drop down. nfl.com is a good example of this. You can navigate to "scores" easily but getting to "standings" is problematic. All of the sites that rely on a mouse cursor or Flash can be rebuilt to support tablets but I'm not sure this is an improvement.
The lack of mouse over messages is a problem with icons as well. If I don't know what an ambiguous icon does, the only way to find out is to poke the icon or wade through documentation.
The problem would be that windows 8 makes the touch interface a default from what I see. So touch interface that allows for mouse and keyboard?
And yes I know it's not that bad, but I do think the default for a desktop pc is wrong.
Do the decision makers at Microsoft not have any rotator cuffs? Because just the thought of reaching out to touch a desktop monitor all day makes mine start to ache.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Except that Windows 8 has largely broken the existing interface.
I just bought a Windows 8 laptop without a touchscreen. Regardless of what the mindless hoards think, I realize that a touchscreen doesn't add to the usability of the computer for the tasks I wish to do. (FYI, I spent almost a decade designing and developing Point-Of-Sale software for touchscreen computers, so I have plenty of experience with them.)
It took only a few hours to realize that Windows 8 couldn't make up its mind about whether my gestures were intended to be a minor action (moving the pointer over an inch to press a button) or a new, major action (switching to the previous application). Before the end of the day, I wiped Win8 off of the machine and installed Win7. I won't "upgrade" unless and until Microsoft makes it reasonable to turn off the Metro interface.
For the time being, I'm more or less stuck running some version of Windows. If Microsoft continues to force its users to use "The Interface Formerly Known As Metro", I will either stick with Win7. If that becomes impractical, I'll switch to Linux.
Touch screens and light pens suck on a vertical surface. Mount the display on about a 30 degree slope, like a sheet of paper on a drafting table, and the gorilla arm problem goes away.
I like my iPad, and the iPad mini has its place, but I really want to see iOS devices that are far larger, like standard B, C, and D sheets.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This!
I've been using Windows 8 on a touch enabled ultrabook and I LOVE it. I regularly stretch my arm to my regular desktop monitor and remember that it does not have touch. Of course I do not use only touch. I use keyboard and trackpad but some operations (specifically scrolling and zooming in the browser) are so much easier with touch than they are with the trackpad. Sometimes I even start and close apps with touch. I am not even talking about metro apps (which are mostly useless at this point). I am talking about regular Windows. After using it for a while I am sure touch is here to stay at least in the ultrabook and laptop form factor.
Stop propagating the myth Steve Jobs started that few people bother to test first hand.
Here's some articles from people who actually USED Windows 8:
Surprisingly, touchscreen laptops don't suck
Touchscreens and the Myth of Windows 8 ‘Gorilla Arm’
The fact that Microsoft missed something this *basic* doesn't exactly bode well for the future of the company. HUMANS matter. Machines don't.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Vertical desktop touch screens have been with us since at least 1972. The University of Illinois' PLATO project didn't just deploy them on a significant scale, it exposed impressionable students to them.
Since then, many perfectly good touchscreen technologies have been available, commercially, and have been widely deployed e.g. in kiosks. And GUI software support behind them, e.g. Windows for Pen Computing, GO, etc. has been around for two decades.
Meanwhile, successful deployments of touchscreen technology have been widespread since, let's say, 1997 and the Palm Pilot--but always on small, handheld, horizontal-screen devices.
If large vertical touchscreens are really usable for sustained periods of time, and if they really add something of substantial value to mouse point-and-click GUI's, I find it very, very hard to believe they wouldn't have already gained traction.
I'd add that if multitouch gestures are really a significant improvement, I think it's at least as likely that they will take the form of detached, horizontal trackpads like the Apple Magic Trackpad. Horizontal surface, small-muscle coordination.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
It's called using a 'mouse' and 'keyboard'. I touch both of them and the way I touch and move them controls what is on the screen. I need to use the screen on my tablet and phone because I'm not at my desk. What works well on the desktop doesn't work on the phone, it needed different input techniques. That doesn't mean those techniques work well on the desktop.
.. would I like a touch screen on my desktop? A little, most mouse-type devices are limited in movement to do things like rotate, although with the appropriate software it's possible, just not as intuitive. Most of screen manipulation is simply clicking, double/long clicking, or moving and mice cal already do that. They can also be used to zoom and swipe with the appropriate software. You can't right click a touch screen, although long clicking kinda sorta is the same thing I guess. Definitely can't middle click. It would be handy for media manipulation at times. But how is that going to work on my 72" HDTV??? I need the capability for both to use when I need to.
Now
And explain to me why you decided that bigger icons on my desktop were a good idea, especially since most of the time I have these things you call 'windows' up and can't really see any of them when they are active so what's the purpose?? I have dual monitors, and most of the time I have windows open on both and most of my desktop is hidden. I'm doing this thing called 'work'. The little pop-up notifications that pop-up then fade away work just fine and are much more useful.
Windows 8 is not on my list of upgrades. If you want me to upgrade, give me something that is a reason to upgrade, like runs faster. I don't care about boot or standby times, my PC is on 24x7 and I rarely reboot. In fact, the only time I reboot is when you need to install updates because you haven't figured out how to do that without rebooting, like UNIX has done for decades you idiots.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Add complement/compliment to brakes/breaks, lose/loose, rein/reign, toe/tow and all the other illiteracies spelling checkers have foisted on us.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Actually, I used a light pen on a PDP-1 and my problem was that I got a sort spot on the pad of my index finger. Normally, there was a shutter closed over the sensor, and you had a slide a little spring-loaded slide to uncap it. The spring was probably stronger than it should have been, and the slide had little ridges on it to give a better grip.
My finger didn't actually get blistered, but close. It got sore and painful enough to make me realize I needed to avoid using it for a day.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Anyone who spends that much time with their tablet probably already has a 'Gorilla Arm'. At least one.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Mount the screen at an angle. Recess it. Problem solved. Dell S2340T 23" Multi-Touch Monitor
Fatigue: it costs more energy to move your whole arm and body to touch a screen than it takes to move a mouse pointer. That's what the article covers.
Obfuscation: Where the mouse pointer does cover 'some' pixels on the screen, a finger, and its attached hand and arm will obfuscate a much larger part of the view, which requires the user to remember what was under his finger before touching it. If this happens too often or a UI changes rapidly (eg a web site), this could lead to frustrations. Especially with subjects like the elderly.
Precision: You lose precision, even with a perfectly healthy human being, a fingerprint has a bigger surface than a pixel-perfect pointer, therefor your UI needs to be a lot more spacious to allow for users to "aim" correctly and allow for some correctional margin. If the UI design did not take this into account, this too can lead to frustration (mis-touching).
Windows 8 is a half-assed execution of some good ideas, the signature Microsoft symptom since Ballmer took over.
It seems to me, and many others, that Microsoft has an internal policy of deliberately making bad versions of Windows to increase sales. Look at the background of bad versions: Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8.
A company that has a virtual monopoly can make money by deliberately abusing its customers. That's especially true when a product is complicated and customers don't have the time to become technically knowledgeable.
Many people who buy a Windows computer now will want to buy Windows 9 when it is released because Windows 8 is so weird. That tends to double sales, because customers don't pay an upgrade price, Microsoft requires them to pay for an entirely new operating system, even though there have been few changes between versions. Also, Microsoft has established multiple prices. Customers who bought Windows 7 because they didn't like Windows Vista paid far more per copy than computer manufacturers.
It seems that abuse is deliberate Microsoft company policy. Yes, Microsoft management is incompetent, but also knowingly destructive. For example, a court case established that a Microsoft manager had said before Windows Vista was released that it was not ready to be released. Knowing that, Vista was released anyway.
Microsoft has been alternating bad and good versions of operating systems since the days of DOS. For example, DOS version 3.0 had serious bugs. DOS version 3.1 fixed the bugs. Customers who owned DOS 3 were required to pay the full retail price for DOS 3.1, even though there were few changes.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
We have the monitor sitting where it does because it is easy and non-stressful to look at. You keep your neck in a neutral position and can see what you are doing. Your mouse and keyboard are then on the desk for the same reason with regards to your hands. If I move the monitor down to the desk, I'll suffer from neck and back pain in a hurry, because I'll be working hunched over.
Also, if you make your input and output device the same device, then you have the problem that your hands are blocking a large part of your output device. My keyboard is pretty large and my hands block off most of it from view when I type. Why would I want to do that with a display?
You could have two displays, but then the question is again why. Keyboards are mice offer excellent tactile feedback because they are physical devices. I can touch type at 80wpm+ on a physical keyboard, literally with my eyes closed. I can't come anywhere near that on a touchscreen.
Touchscreens are useful only in some situations, mainly where you have a limited amount of space and as such your display and input devices need to be the same. There is just no reason to want them on the desktop. They are more expensive, and less usable, than what we already have.
I think people forget that touchscreens are NOT new. They've been around for a long time, yet there's been no interest in bringing them to desktop computing on a large scale. There are plenty of reasons for it, ergonomics top among them.
"Why is mouselessness seemingly so important to people who are sworn off Windows anyway?"
Because the Linux distros are moving in that direction as well. Two new desktop environments have been created for Linux, to revolt against the touch GUI's. I'm currently in Mate right now. Cinnamon doesn't really appeal to me. Enlightenment is the other option, but it's still not ready for prime time. I've abandoned Gnome3 and I had already left KDE when version 4 came out.
The two desktops that I am most familiar, most comfortable with, are Gnome2 and Windows Classic. The distro that gives me what I'm comfortable with will gain my allegiance. Right now, that means Linux Mint Debian.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I remember blackboards. Teacher would stand in front of the blackboard, spend maybe thirty seconds scribbling something, wipe her hands, then wander around the room for two or three minutes, while blathering away on the importance of what she just wrote. Then, she would return to the blackboard, blather for another minute and a half, turn around, and write something new up there.
That corresponds to how people use touchscreen gestures on a desktop/laptop. You don't touch the screen all the time, just reach every now and then.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
There's actually quite a market for tablets, in case you haven't noticed.
That's a different market. Tablets are for content consumers. Mice and keyboards are for content producers.
Most of the people I see with tablets use them to read or view content, with only occasional interaction. When they start doing significant input, they invariably adapt some sort of keyboard/mouse combination to the tablet. With varying degrees of success.
The people doing significant content creation don't put up with mini keyboards and cheap track pads happily. There's still quite a market for the old IBM clicky keyboards among this group for a reason.
Have gnu, will travel.
The "Broken Window Fallacy" is about the overall economy, having windows to repair is good for the window repairer.
How is JavaScript not type-checked? You can't do object operations with an integer or vice versa or call a method that an object doesn't implement; trying to do so will throw a runtime exception. Or do you mean that you can't statically check that all assignments to a particular variable will be references to objects with a particular prototype?
Whoever thought that it would be a good idea to have multiple files with identical names but different cases should be shot.
When you establish user-friendly equivalence classes between sets of code points, you have to be careful. Even if the mapping from lowercase to uppercase is one-to-one and onto in ASCII, it's not the case in general in Unicode. For example, should the German letter "ß" be counted as equivalent to the letters "SS" or "SZ"? Should the Latin letter A and the similarly shaped Greek and Cyrillic letters be counted as equivalent?