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HP Software Update Cancels Food Stamps
Spy Handler writes "A software update of the California welfare computer system (CalWIN) caused 37,000 Food Stamp recipients to lose their EBT (a credit card paid for by the government) benefits last weekend. According to the article, Hewlett Packard was responsible for the failed update of CalWIN, but at 8:00 a.m. today Xerox (who administers another state welfare system called CalFresh) issued a patch that reactivated the EBT cards."
Sure, why not? I mean, letting your citizens starve has worked out so well for North Korea, we should try it here.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
I'm fine with welfare but they need to crack down on it. Alot of people are on it that don't need to be!
Because some people abuse a system, that we should shut an entire system down and let people starve instead.
Right.
"Am I my brother's keeper?"
Yes, yes you are. Civilization is a lot better than the alternative.
--
BMO
California almost trimmed the state budget!
It's a feature.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Because some people abuse a system, that we should shut an entire system down and let people starve instead.
Right.
"Am I my brother's keeper?"
Yes, yes you are. Civilization is a lot better than the alternative.
--
BMO
Because some people abuse a system, we should punish the abusers and fix the system. We are currently rewarding the abusers and expanding the broken system.
That's retarded on the face of it, you don't even have to start the debate of whether or not the system should exist in the first place.
I remember when food assistance programs meant you got your monthly allotment of government welfare cheese and other staples delivered to your door. im all for taking it back to that time. The 'modern' method of distributing benefits definitely opens the way to fraud, especially when you can get cash from the ebt card at casinos. It has made fraud so easy now many of the benefits are not going to their intended purpose. However, there are not too many crack dealers that will trade a block of cheese for drugs. That is the way it should be. Keep the benefits, just change the method of delivery. i think that would help more than anything. im tired of working hard to fund some other's drug or gambling habit with this kind of abuse.
Agreed. Canada has exactly the same problem. I came out of high school, worked 6 years as an apprentice got my license as an electrician and have since been out of work. I don't qualify for welfare but there is gov. subsidized housing down the street with a parking lot full of 2012 pickups and BMWs. Both countries need a serious overhaul to their welfare systems.
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
Worth a shot. Seems like very time I go to the grocery store, someone is in front of me loading up on Oreos, Doritos, soda, and ice cream and putting it on the food stamp card.
The most calories for the least amount of money. Also, the least amount of necessary preparation time, as many of those recipients work more hours than you do.
What rational argument? There's only two "arguments" that ever come up:
"Hurr, durr, welfare queen derp" which has - since its inception - been a patently false concern.
"Herpaderpaderp smartphones lolololol" - yes, people who become unemployed actually have cellphones that they bought during their previous employment! What's more, they tend to keep them, since skipping out on the contract is generally catastrophically expensive when you have no income, and you generally need a phone to get a new job! Fucking amazing!
I won't even go into the, "THEY'RE BUYING ALL THIS STUFF THAT THEY'RE NOT REALLY ACTUALLY BUYING BECAUSE I'M A LYING SACK OF SHIT WHO NEVER EVEN LOOKED AT THE LIST OF ALLOWED PURCHASES!" non-argument.
There is fraud, of course, but it might not be as much as you think.
These stats are for USA Unemployment Insurance, not welfare payments. Both are large programs, but I don't know if their fraud rates compare.
"Finally, $580 million of the $2.45 billion in total UI overpayments for 2001, or 1.9% of total UI payments for that year, was attributable to fraud or abuse within the UI program. By any standard, these figures add up to a lot of money. That is why the Department of Labor has been hard at work on the problem."
I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
That was a time-bomb put in by Carly Fiorina years ago, thinking that she'd (still) be Governor by now.
Knew when I saw the title, there would be posts praising HP for their blunder. Look, welfare needs reform, no one (sane) doubts that, but to end the whole system indiscriminately is both counterproductive and inhumane. There are many reasons why someone would need to go on welfare so learn a bit more sympathy and please stop the thinly veiled "kill 'em all" attitude.
Besides, the they fixed the mess in a day, so at most this was a major inconvenience.
If computers were people, I'd be a misanthrope.
I'm fine with welfare but they need to crack down on it. Alot of people are on it that don't need to be!
You know this for fact? If you know people that are on welfare that shouldn't be, then report them.
If you don't know anyone that is taking advantage of Welfare and are just saying this because you hate paying taxes. Fuck off.
People like you are worse then those who take advantage of Welfare.
If you got proof, bring it. If you don't, fuck off.
Be seeing you...
A shame for you that we're not bankrupting ourselves to feed dependents. We're bankrupting ourselves to support the massive military complex, and to keep old people alive and healthy.
So if you want to be the one to tell those who make lethal weapons they are all out of job or old people they just need to die, go ahead.
There will always be people who exploit the system, any system, but at some point the costs will be higher to keep the system 'pure' than it is catching every single last abuser.
Same applies to millionaires and taxes (but lordy lordy, we can't crack down on THEM abusing the system!)
Why not explain, in detail, how much is being wasted each year?
http://www.whptv.com/mostpopular/story/Sixteen-PA-residents-pleaded-guilty-to-welfare/xAQekhwrt0ar1uqAE18a6g.cspx
http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Broome-County-Arrests-12-on-Welfare-Fraud-Charges-185548162.html
Those are both CBS affiliates. I've seen 60 minutes also do an expose on food stamp fraud a few years back. They videotaped people exchanging food stamps for drugs at a store in Chicago. It's so common no one even blinks about it anymore. If you haven't seen news about it on even the left wing tv affiliates then you just don't watch the news or you selectively listen to it.
If HP Issued the patches, and xerox pushed a fix, then who's fault is it really?
One of the biggest gripes about the patch release cycles is that they are slow. Companies like HP state this is for people to be able to do full testing etc to make sure nothing goes wrong. So the real question here is who didn't do their testing on the systems before the patches go live?
It's obvious there has been mistakes made, but blaming the wrong company/person never helps the situation. There are people who currently rely on the welfare payments to make ends meet, and ensuring this type of stuff doesn't happen is critical. Regardless if you agree or not to the payments themselves, while they are valid they need to make sure they are delivered on time and correctly.
Sure, why not? I mean, letting your citizens starve has worked out so well for North Korea, we should try it here.
Note to self:
Bring up North Korea (one of the poorest countries in Asia) instead of South Korea (one of the richest in Asia) as an example of how to run or not run a country.
"His name was James Damore."
I don't have any problem feeding people who honestly need help but anyone except an idiot knows the system is broken. Why everyone starts foaming at the mouth anytime anyone mentions fixing the fraud in the system is beyond me. No one....well...most people don't want anyone to starve but we don't like being taken advantage of either. Why can't you see that?
I remember when food assistance programs meant you got your monthly allotment of government welfare cheese and other staples delivered to your door. im all for taking it back to that time. The 'modern' method of distributing benefits definitely opens the way to fraud, especially when you can get cash from the ebt card at casinos. It has made fraud so easy now many of the benefits are not going to their intended purpose. However, there are not too many crack dealers that will trade a block of cheese for drugs. That is the way it should be. Keep the benefits, just change the method of delivery. i think that would help more than anything. im tired of working hard to fund some other's drug or gambling habit with this kind of abuse.
You have no idea what a EBT is do you?
EBT have 2 uses. 1 use if for food stamps. That money on the card for food stamps can ONLY be used to purchase food. You can NOT use it to take money out of your food part.
The other use of EBT is putting on money from services like DSHS.
For example, before I was on disability I got $330 a month to live on from DSHS, and $190 in Food stamps (food credit really). I was able to take out $330 using an ATM, but the $190 was just for Food.
That money I got monthly doesn't matter if I got it on the EBT card, or if I got it in a check, it was my money to spend. And it has nothing to do with Food Stamps.
So, if you saw a person using a EBT to take out money, he/she was doing what they are allowed to. They are NOT using their Food Stamps to get money from an ATM. That is NOT even possible.
So before you start spouting off about what you saw, trying learning a bit about it first before you make accusations that are NOT true.
Be seeing you...
In the US at least, calories are not the issue.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
Did you by chance go to the subsidized housing and find out who owns which vehicles? They could be visitors, they could of been vehicles that they inherited from a relative, they could be other people who pay to park their cars there.
I know which cars in my own neighborhood belong to residents, because I live here and have a set of eyes that let me learn shit like that. I assume the person you are responding to has a set of eyes as well.
Okay, since most of you probably never been on it, I will give you some info.
Back before EBT was thought up, we had Food Stamps. They were basicly like paper money, but food stamps, only could be spend on food, but you got real change back. So this was abused. People would purposedly by cheap stuff to get change back to spend on drugs/alcohol.
In the 90's they decided to go to a debit like card. This had a few purposes. One was about giving people actually real money change for the food stamps, the other it was cheaper to get digital.
So they decided to go with EBT cards. The Food Stamp part of the card is only for buying Food. You can NOT use it to take money out, you can NOT use it to buy Alcohol. Only food.
They also decided to put DSHS monthly payments on it, which is why you might see using one in an ATM machine, but they are NOT using the Food Stamp part of it.
Be seeing you...
It's easy to see all around you. It's all these unmarried couples that live together with kids. Man goes out and makes money, while wife stays at home crying about being a single mother. Or the man works under the table.
BTW, common sense has it that people who commit fraud are worse than people who simply have opinions.
---------- Open Source is capitalism applied to IP.
Actually, the CalWIN system is designed, written, and maintained by EDS. EDS was absorbed by HP a while back.It's always been a kludgy system and has failures of one part or another every week.
2012 UI: $520 billion
.. "highest in 4 years" ..
Now, I don't know where you get your $2.45 billion figure from, but if $2.45 billion was 1.9% of the total cost of UI as you claim, then UI only cost the taxpayer $127 billion in 2001 while it costs $520 billion today.,
Are unemployment payouts really 4 times higher now than in 2001? Whats going on?
A quick search reveals that in 2001, unemployment hit 4.9%
As of September 2012, unemployment was at 7.9%.
1.6 times as many people on unemployment, but 4 times as much money being spent on it...
Do you really want to continue to use unemployment as a model for some sort of fiscal responsibility metric?
"His name was James Damore."
Unions?
I don't know about people's financial background by looking at them, so I can't comment on whether or not a lot of the EBT customers I know "deserve" (whoever defines what that means) food stamps, but I can say they they are misused and promote a false sense of entitlement. I used to work at a grocery store in the middle of a Downtown, and a lot of EBT people were wasting it on soda, chips, candy, etc. I mean, spending tax dollars that are set aside for food on something with no nutritional value is pretty backasswards. Also, it would make people ornery as fuck about things that weren't food stamp-able to the point management would rather just have us alter the code for an item and change it than to argue with them. In those cases it was always something like a prepared sandwich (food stamps aren't legal for restaurant/prepared food) or chocolates that they got from the greeting card section (the item was more about the box design and design than its sustenance).
BTW, just to clarify for you libertarians: your tax dollars are being spent so someone else can buy valentines chocolates for their girlfriend. *shields face from computer*
You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
getting fucked in the ass by a government that takes more and more
Hey troll, tax rates are lower right now then they've been in a long long time. They were a good bit higher in Clinton's day, and it keeps on going higher when you go back a lot further. That's the problem. We are spending, but not paying for it.
Look how much we payed back in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.
Ever since old Ronny took office, we've had low taxes, and been driving the deficit up and up because we aren't paying anywhere near what we used to.
Government taking more and more, what a laugh. You must get all your 'information' from FAUX news.
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html
my brother tried, very unsuccessfully, to get food stamps after losing his job (single father). Also, if you do manage to get on public assistance there is a) a Maximum of 5 years cash assistance, after that it's food stamps only and they average $102/mo and b) you're social worker will force you to take the first job that comes along (and yes, they can and will cut you off if you don't), which depresses your wages.
So I say again, citation needed.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
or an Astro Turfer for a right wing blog. One of the two. People who live in the projects can't afford $1000/mo car payments. Also, the social workers track what kind of car you own. Even the drug dealers don't do that well.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
but why should I have to pay for that $330 to pay a stripper? Maybe it should instead be distributed as a check payable directly to landlord/mortgage/etc.
that maybe, just maybe these people's drug problems are caused by poverty, instead of the other way around? I'm not asking you to stop judging (I'm judging you right now), I'm asking you to think reasonable about cause and affect, and ask yourself if you're really just looking for excuses to leave these people to their (rather horrible) fate.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
And a lot of people abuse the EBT cards for non essential goods and services. I had someone in front of a Wal Mart offer me an EBT card with over one hundred on it for sixty cash. Welfare recipients take out cash at strip clubs, liquor stores and X-rated shops
Are unemployment payouts really 4 times higher now than in 2001? Whats going on?
High paying jobs are going overseas, and we're importing massive numbers of workers on visas (H1-B et all). The media doesn't mention any of this any more than they mention the Koch Brothers letter to Boehner telling him not to vote on Sandy relief. Everything you hold dear and love is being taken away from you by the investor class.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I said opinions. Not options. They are different words with different meanings.
There is little to report in cases like this. It would be defamation at the least without having hard evidence. This discussion was about the welfare system in the USA.
You see, in America there is this principle of innocent until proven guilty. Not to mention, people have rights to privacy. As a private citizen, I don't have the right to investigate other peoples private actions. Most of the funds for welfare come from the federal government or states, which is administered by the local counties. The counties are not going to hire people to investigate what happens with other peoples money.
---------- Open Source is capitalism applied to IP.
Pro tip for people claiming to do some basic math: they actually do some math
.. thats just the outlays, not the administrative costs.
1 out of 7 people receive SNAP benefits, and this costs each household in America $631.58/year
Whats sad to me is people that don't want to include the numbers while declaring that things are cheap, all-the-while admonishing others for not doing math. Really?
I'm curious what you thought that you were hiding by not revealing the "basic math" numbers to us.
"His name was James Damore."
(food stamps aren't legal for restaurant/prepared food)
In California they are. Most of the fast-food restaurants here accept EBT.
you live in fantasy, I live in reality, a reality where just this morning there was a woman and her maybe 5 year old kid at the gas station in front of me, the little shit was finger fucking every candybar and momma was totally oblivious, she buys the kid a 20 ounce coke and a doughnut on EBT, then pays with a 100$ bill for a carton of cigarettes, then drives off in a practically brand new Yukon with the speakers rattling the fucking windows.
Did you by chance go to the subsidized housing and find out who owns which vehicles? They could be visitors, they could of been vehicles that they inherited from a relative, they could be other people who pay to park their cars there.
I know which cars in my own neighborhood belong to residents, because I live here and have a set of eyes that let me learn shit like that. I assume the person you are responding to has a set of eyes as well.
I live in low income housing. We have people with nice cars here. I do NOT know their situation, I do NOT know why they have nice cars. Any guess I make is an assumption, and unless I go and ask the people, then I'm going to keep making assumptions.
If you think someone is getting over on welfare, then fucking report them or shut the fuck up. All this other talk is just bullshit. Let's get down on welfare because someone people might abuse it. Well, welcome to life, where people abuse whatever they can, from all walks of life. Either start reporting it, or stfu about it.
Just quit making fucking assumptions on shit you really do NOT know.
Be seeing you...
To say that "People can use EBT cards to buy legit things and then trade them for other goods" and that's a problem is leaving out the part where SNAP != EBT which also includes disability payments. SNAP, aka food stamps, can only purchase food - you must be able to ingest it to bill it against a SNAP account. If you see someone using an EBT card to pay for non-food items then they are on the "cash side" of the card. You see the state uses the same financial network (EBT - Electronic Benefits Transfer) to handle cash disbursement for other social programs such as disability. Rest assured you must be extremely fucked to get cash distribution via EBT.
If you see someone using an EBT card to purchse tide you should perhaps feel sorry for their condition instead of feeling like you need to put a stop to it. Does a disabled person not get to enjoy other perks of life such as video games? Who gets to decide what they can and can not purchase with their income (remember: this is not food stamps, this is their revenue source).
In the US at least, some apartment complexes have a mixture of subsidized and unsubsidized apartments.
A previous coworker of mine lived in one, and while he wasn't on federal assistance, he did buy a nicer BMW. I used to joke that when people saw his car pull into his apartment building, they'd bitch and moan about welfare leaches.
Even if the system was much better, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people committing fraud and finding loopholes. The more relevant questions would be: what portion of people on food stamps are committing fraud (and what portion of their food stamps... there is a difference between using all of it for something illegally, and just using a small fraction while still needing the rest for food), what ratio of false negatives to false positives is acceptable (in other words, what number of people is it acceptable to let go without food because they got caught up in something meant to target those commit fraud), and how much does it cost to implement improvements versus what is loss to fraud.
There is a lot of room for improvement to the current system. Although at some point, you would be stuck with something like "Would you rather 10% of the people who get their food stamps not need it, or would you rather implement idea XYZ to reduce that to 5%, while causing 2% of legit users to loose food cards and saving only 10% of the cost of just giving food stamps to that segment that doesn't need them." And at any point, there is going to be a portion of people say, "It is more important that 0% of people get money they shouldn't than any number of needing people get the money, it is far better to remove a system with any amount of abuse regardless of how much benefit it also provides."
Yeah, I'm sure there gonna listen to someone who reports people on a regular basis. There's at least seven people I could have reported. I know what would happen, without having any solid proof other than my observations they would write me off as a nut case sick of paying taxes. Sound like someone you know?
There is no crime in people having opinions. Something you don't seem to understand.
---------- Open Source is capitalism applied to IP.
you seem like a reasonable, compassionate person.
(actually, no you don't!)
I can tell you never had to go thru tough times, a long-term layoff, tight job market or life problems that emptied your savings.
but go ahead and blame poor people for being poor. lots of people love to push people while they're down. its fun, right?
I hope you get a dose of bad luck in your life. it will convert you to being a bit more compassionate.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Are unemployment payouts really 4 times higher now than in 2001? Whats going on?
It's $520 billion for the last 5 years, making the average per year cost $104 billion.
And the numbers are shrinking.
In December of 2011 accumulated costs were $434 billion. Making 2012 $18 billion below average.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
fraud done by poor people: pocket change in the US scale of money.
fraud done by ultra rich: BILLIONS and not at all pocket-change!
if you want to 'fix' something, there's more justice to be had by going after banksters and other neo-mobsters than the poor folks just trying to get up into the middle class.
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time 'cracking down' on those whose lives are at poverty level and have very little hope of pulling themselves out.
abuse at the welfare (etc) level is just noise-level. we have bigger fish to fry, IF we wanted to. but the protected rich are untouchable. sigh..
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Thank you!
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
anything can be monetized if you are willing to take a loss. If you give somebody something for free, he will be willing to take a nearly 100% loss in the monetization process....
There was a case which made news, last year in the US if I recall, in which a guy was seen buying cases of bottled water from a store and then opening them and dumping the water in the alley. When the reporter questioned the guy, it turned out he was using EBT to buy the water, dumping the water, and then turning the bottles in to get the recycling fee back as cash. A horrific % loss that nobody sane would take with their own money, but when the EBT is free and provided by the taxpayers and with a drunk who just really wants some liquor this looks perfectly logical
Before America went all big-government-social-program crazy, our poor and our drunks were left to local charities. Bums in church-run soup kitchens got healthy food (they were not left to starve) in a manner that did not permit the resources to be re-directed in destructive and wasteful ways. They also might have to listen to somebody preach at them about personal responsibility and cleaning their lives up. In modern America, that's bad..... bums should be encouraged to live their alternate life styles, nobody should judge them, and money should be taken by force from hard working people to pay for them
Jeez, mate. You're admitting to helping at least SEVEN PEOPLE defraud the federal government? Why would you do that? I don't work hard and pay taxes so that people like you choose to look the other way while crimes are being committed! If you witness a crime and fail to report it, you are part of the problem.
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
Sure, why not? I mean, letting your citizens starve has worked out so well for North Korea, we should try it here.
Oh yeah, if there's one thing California is known for, it's not giving out benefits to everyone and anyone despite any budgets or tax levels.
A database of 200 million Electronic Benefit Transfer records from January 2011 to July 2012, obtained by The Post through a Freedom of Information request, showed welfare recipients using their EBT cards to make dozens of cash withdrawals at ATMs inside Hankâ(TM)s Saloon in Brooklyn; the Blue Door Video porn shop in the East Village; The Anchor, a sleek SoHo lounge; the Patriot Saloon in TriBeCa; and Drinks Galore, a liquor distributor in The Bronx.
DOZENS of withdrawals from 200 MILLION records. If every government program was abused on the order of less than 1 thousandth of 1%, then we'd all be sitting pretty
and there is no proof that the money was actually spent on alcohol (likely perhaps, but probably not in all cases). But regardless, any program that wastes less than 1 hundredth of 1% (and here it was even less) is a raging success.
Meanwhile, thousands of welfare recipients in California were tragically forced to use their drug profits to buy lapdances and liquor. Nobody knows when HP will fix this error so they can go back to buying new cars with their drug profiteering.
... and in the DRM, bind them.
I came out of high school, worked 6 years as an apprentice got my license as an electrician and have since been out of work.
Really? And you've never considered going to Alberta, Manitoba, Quebec, Newfieland, or Nova Scotia and be working within a week. Though you could go to Alberta and be working within two days.
Demand is high in all of those provinces for skilled trades, electricians included.
Not to mention the millions that have crossed the southern border without any visa at all to take jobs from citizens and benefits from the taxpayers.
any program that wastes less than 1 hundredth of 1% (and here it was even less) is a raging success.
I don't accept that this program wastes less than 1%.
I guess the argument is that if someone's on public assistance, they shouldn't also visit any Saloon or Porn shop, for any reason, and a cash withdrawl, is evidence they (or someone with their card) was present there, because these places provide recreational activities, and anyone receiving government aid shouldn't get to have any recreation (blah blah blah).
Well, perhaps they were going to the Saloon looking for a job, or to meet someone else who was paying for a badly-needed drink, and they just happened to withdraw some $ on their way out.
I can't buy video games. I work too many hours for to little pay. What dipsh*t thinks they have the right to forcibly take my tax money (and children's/grandchildren's money via debt) for someone else to buy video games with my money. If people working for their money cannot afford something, then people who are getting a free ride off of my tax money should not be getting it.
Remember, if the money is from the government it was first taken from someone else who actually worked to actually earn it. If they walked into my house to take my money to buy amusements I would have every right to shoot them dead (per Missouri law), but somehow using the government as a middle man (who takes a cut himself) makes it okay.
For those of you outside the U.S., we have those who need financial help to get food. This in a county that exported about 3.5 million tons of rice. The government run help program is called SNAP. Through the SNAP program, the U.S. government is now spending roughly $5.6 billion per month on food assistance helping out 41,836,000 Americans. Doing the math that's $5,601,600,000 (monthly cost) / 41,836,000 (Americans on food assistance) = $133 per person
I think a lot of people like to beat up on those that receive food stamps because they find stories where the few are defrauding the system. Just look at the above data. How much can you do with $133 (99 euro) per month?
But hey, let's spend lots of additional money employing cops and tie up court time to go after someone that's defrauding the government on SNAP money. I mean the talking heads on TV tell you you should be mad that your fellow citizen is receiving aid. From your paycheck even!
I don't mind that my tax dollars goes to help feed fellow Americans. What I mind is being forced to help the banks (by taking my tax dollars) through the TARP bailout. That 700 billion could have paid for the SNAP program at current levels for close to a decade. As for TARP - how many bankers went to jail over that ?
Source:
Table I got my numbers from:
http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/SNAPsummary.htm
"It's one thing to talk about the poetry of machines. Quite another to listen to it for yourself."
I'm sure food stamps are abused on occasion, but I can't imagine that this happens on a large enough scale that anyone should care.
According to the USDA, the average (nation-wide) food stamp benefit was $133.42 per month. That's $4.39 per day! At a maximum, an individual can get $200 per month, or $6.57 per day.
http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/18SNAPavg$PP.htm
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1269
How the fuck could any of these people have anything left over after buying the minimum amount of food they need to not feel hungry? The idea that there are large numbers of poor people living large, paying for alcohol and drugs and strippers with their EBT cards, is retarded. Even if it does happen once in a while, it cannot be enough of a problem to warrant the amount of anti-poor vitriol that are in the comments here.
Why not go after things that actually waste significant amounts of money? Like tax evaders, corporate bailouts, corn subsidies, the broken health care system, useless wars, etc.
And if you think there really is any significant amount of food stamp money going to strippers, at least provide some proof and numbers to back up your claims.
Food assistance isn't for the poor, it's to make sure the poor aren't poor, starving, and looking to rob/kill the rich. The total cost of all food assistance programs is about $75B or .5% of GDP, a small price to pay for a calm underclass.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
The H1B program is great, bring smart people from around the world here to work and expand our economy and tax base. If you don't let the companies bring the workers here they'll just move the jobs to where those workers are and the US will lose out on monetary velocity and tax base. But please, keep up the good fight against those damn foreigners, it makes you look so smart.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
There is no shame in shopping at Wal-Mart.
SNAP, aka food stamps, can only purchase food - you must be able to ingest it to bill it against a SNAP account.
Which still doesnt solve the problem of either A) trading the food for money or B) unscrupulous shopkeepers ringing up food when you come to the register with beer.
Both are real, actual things that happen, and are real, actual concerns.
If you see someone using an EBT card to purchse tide you should perhaps feel sorry for their condition instead of feeling like you need to put a stop to it.
Theres no need to launch into an attack on me; I never said I routinely attack people for purchasing tide with an EBT card. If I see someone is using an EBT card that is a personal matter; its my business only on a societal level, which is why Im addressing it in broad terms.
Greetings and salutations.
I have a number of friends that work in the Department of Human Services, so, Let me give you some facts. First - DHS has an entire department of investigations whose one job is to track down and deal with cases of fraud. It does not matter if you report ONE example, or a hundred. However, you cannot simply say "I think that so-and-so is committing fraud". Rather, you have to give a little more specific information. For example, if you know someone who talks about the amount of aid they are getting by telling their caseworker that the baby-daddy is not in the home, but, you know for a fact that he is there more than half the week...that information will trigger an investigation. If you see someone trading their benefits for drugs or non-approved items, you have to tell DHS WHAT drugs/non-approved items are being gotten and how. If you know that a mother is getting a fair amount of cash, based on there being several childrend in the home,but you know for a fact that there are not that many kids in the house....tell DHS these facts. If you know a person who is receiving benefits, but is working full time....report it.
The investigators at DHS have been doing this sort of thing for a long time, and, it does not take any time at all for them to find out if things are hinky. If nothing wrong is happening, then, the investigation is closed. If they find something...appropriate actions are recommended. Now, whether or not fraud is prosecuted is not under the control of DHS. That is the responsibility of the prosecutor's office. Too many of these folks are in elected offices, and, will not bother with welfare fraud because it is not a sexy issue to include in their campaign commercials. Much more fun to do something high-profile, like going after murderers, paedophiles, etc.
Finally, remember this: "All that is required for Evil to win is for good men to do nothing". If you really know seven folks that you have seen committing fraud, and you fail to report them, then, you are aiding and abetting in that fraud. Also, I would suggest that you have no right to complain about anything associated with the welfare system.
I agree that opinions are unregulated and we all have the freedom to believe what we believe. However, the only opinions worth more than warm snail spit are those with a good basis in fact...not just random opinion.
Pleasant dreams....
YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
EBT in California is also used for unemployment benefits. I do believe that comes out of the cash side and you can use it as a debit card and just get the cash
At what point does a smartphone seller have enough Tide detergent?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
I guess they just succesfully argued that what they serve cannot be considered food by any accepted standard.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
And apparently vote, judging by what happened in November.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
Two words: soup kitchen.
Sorry, but there's no reason why this is no longer a tenable option.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Sorry, I just did. Adjusted for inflation in reverse, I would have paid 14% less (of my total income!) on federal income in 1980 than I do today (21% vs 35%) - or should I say, in 2013.
Nice try, though.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Software update fails, wow! Poor little food stamps.
none
It's obvious- the ones foaming at the mouth are the ones who are the ones taking advantage of the system.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
Yes, let's bring a lot of H1-Bs over so companies can get away with paying them less (stop saying this doesn't happen, because it does!) and justify not hiring locals, which due to costs of living are more expensive to employ.
If you can't see why this is a large cause of economic degradation in the U.S., I hope you don't vote.
But we have soup kitchens.
They're not enough. They're not enough for the housebound or those who *do* work but not make enough to feed their family and can't make it to the soup kitchen for the scheduled time.
They are only *part* of the solution.
But hey, this is Slashdot where everyone is 20 something and has a job paying $300k/yr so everyone should be able to get a job like that.
*throws up hands*
--
BMO
Both countries need a serious overhaul to their welfare systems.
I know what you mean, everywhere I go I see evidence on non-stop subsidies: construction assistance, building subsidies, tax breaks and forgiveness, food subsidies, welfare and cash infusion for self-inflicted problems...
Damn corporations.
Oh, you were talking about people?
Instead of IQ let's use posting habits.
I think he is somehow using the fact that there wages have decreased in real terms, even more so as a share of GDP/per worker, as an excuse to show that he would have been in a much lower bracket 30 years ago then today. This can be easily illustrated by the minimum wage. When tracked by productivity per worker hour minimum wage should be about $21 an hour today in the US and instead it is less than $8. Luckily we decoupled that relationship in the 70's, so most people don't realize that the average American would be considered earning less than the minimum wage ( http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html ), if it continued to mirror worker productivity. So, if he could make as much today as he would have commanded in 1980, before we really pushed trickledown, then yes he would pay more in taxes today. Conversely as he seems to posit, if his labor was as worthless in 1980 as it is today he would have pay far less by the 1980 tax code.
Now you're on the right track Sparky!!
--- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
Have you seen the average adult food stamp recipient in the US? I think most of them could live for 6 months on body fat alone.
No but the lists would prevent the people I see buying nothing but junkfood and soda.
No it doesn't it just stops them from buying liquor and cigarets.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
we can start with investment banks and Oil companies.
Liberals want subsidies for people and select companies, republicans want subsidies for companies and conservatives want subsidies to be gone.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
I'm pretty sure it does happen at a fairly large scale. Say something like 80% of people on food stamps... Everyone I know on food stamps trades groceries for other items. They have say 600-700 a month in food stamp credit available and only use 300-400 so what they do is they buy their friends food in exchange for a lower amount of money than the food actually costs.
The summary is incorrect as well. EBT isn't a credit card, it's a debit card. EBT stands for "electronic benefits transfer". Since this is LINK it isn't even a real debit card, since all you can spend it on is groceries (no soap, no beer, no cigarettes, no Big Macs).
And speaking of Big Macs, that guy cooking that Big Mac is on LINK. In the US we make the poor work, quite unlike most of Europe. LINK doesn't really benefit its recipients, it benefits its recipient's employers like fast food joints (not just the much maligned McDonalds), Wal Mart, and in fact almost everyone you hand a credit card to is recieving LINK.
In the US, we don't subsidize the poor, we subsidize their employers. Welfare in the US is only for the rich.
Free Martian Whores!
We know better than to try to argument with you. You hold a position in which you are emotionally invested. All we have is a bunch of statistics showing how welfare helps out the entire population, examples of people who really needed the welfare and who are now back on their feet and have become productive members of society and historical accounts of the fortunes of welfare states against non-welfare states. We know that these facts are no match for your completely made up stats and feelings of loss toward the people who are abusing the system.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
If you learned to spell you might be able to get a job. Aloud means audible, allowed is what you are permitted.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
I love how you started your reply with "we are fed". Yes, very well fed, indeed.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Very well stated. While there are people who abuse welfare there are many more people who do need it and society as a whole benefits from them getting it.
I think universal health care is similar. Not only do I like the idea that everyone has access to proper health care, I think it makes for a better society. As a Canadian I'm amazed to see the number of people in the US who reject the idea of socialized health care.
I like the following quote that I've seen a number of times: I like paying taxes, with them I buy civilization.
you mean like the members of congress?
I see you've never been hungry or had to do without, and some hungers are worse than others. Unless the person with the LINK card is an addict, he's going to use it for food.
But if there's still some food in the fridge and you're out of soap and so nasty you can't stand yourself, you're likely to do something like you mentioned. An alcoholic would peobably do that for a forty ounce, a cigarette addict would do it for smokes. It doesn't just look logical, it IS logical. Not everything is valued in dollars. Those who have little have little to lose.
Before America went all big-government-social-program crazy, our poor and our drunks were left to local charities.
And those charities didn't even come close to filling the need; most rich people are greedy, stingy bastards or they wouldn't be rich. Fortunately we've evolved past that callous attitude to the poor... at least, most of us have.
Free Martian Whores!
So no real source of news allowed than? With the ones you listed, we are only really left with 'Corporate approved' media.
FTFY
Looks like it was from testimony of the Deputy Secretary of the Department of Labor before Congress (http://waysandmeans.house.gov/legacy/humres/107cong/6-11-02/6-11find.htm in the 6th paragraph)
bah. This was supposed to be a reply to Rockoon.
Just quit making fucking assumptions on shit you really do NOT know.
You ought to take your own advice. I'm merely pointing out that a person who lives in an area may have some insight as to whether cars parked in that area belong to residents of the area or not. I said nothing whatever about whether welfare recipients should be driving "nice" cars or not. But hey, nice rant.
What witless moron modded that insightful comment "troll"? Whoever they are, I invite them to mod me down so they can't mod someone down whose karma may not be the best.
Sheesh... I see more bad mods all the time. Is /. going the way of k5? Please bring back the old style metamoderation! And someone please mod the parent up, it deserves to be seen.
Free Martian Whores!
The half of the country living on welfare need to be out working all day in orange coveralls.
Half the people you know are on welfare?? I don't think I know a single person on TANF, although I do know quite a few who work for an almost living that get LINK, and a few disabled people on SSI and SSD.
You're sick. You need a good bitchslap from a homeless, mentally disabled combat veteran, asshole. You did know that 1/4 of all homeless men are former combat veterans? No, of course you didn't, Fox and Rush would never spill the beans about that.
Idiot. Fucking heartles idiot, at that.
Free Martian Whores!
If HP Issued the patches, and xerox pushed a fix, then who's fault is it really?
Please mod this up. The article says Xerox administers the CalWIN program. Xerox would likely be responsible for at least smoke testing this patch, even though it came from HP.
Since the article isn't very detailed, it's hard to tell who is to blame most, but it seems at least as much blame goes to Xerox. I can think of many scenarios that would make it either companies' fault.
What if Xerox used nonstandard data structures for their CalWIN? It might not be possible for the program creator to imagine every possible scenario. That's why no one slaps an Oracle patch on a production system without first testing it for weeks or months beforehand.
At the very least, I'd expect Xerox to do a phased rollout of the patch to small group of users. If there are problems, many fewer people are affected.
Well, I can't believe most of what that guy said, but I do believe him about he weed. I know dope dealers on food stamps, none of which is what I'd call "poor", but then, they don't collect taxes on dope sales. Not in Illinois, anyway.
Of course there's abuse, but these assholes would let people starve just to stop the abuse. That's stupid and cruel.
Free Martian Whores!
http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html
"A basic income is an income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement. It is a form of minimum income guarantee that differs from those that now exist in various European countries in three important ways:
* it is being paid to individuals rather than households;
* it is paid irrespective of any income from other sources;
* it is paid without requiring the performance of any work or the willingness to accept a job if offered.
Liberty and equality, efficiency and community, common ownership of the Earth and equal sharing in the benefits of technical progress, the flexibility of the labour market and the dignity of the poor, the fight against inhumane working conditions, against the desertification of the countryside and against interregional inequalities, the viability of cooperatives and the promotion of adult education, autonomy from bosses, husbands and bureaucrats, have all been invoked in its favour.
But it is the inability to tackle unemployment with conventional means that has led in the last decade or so to the idea being taken seriously throughout Europe by a growing number of scholars and organizations. Social policy and economic policy can no longer be conceived separately, and basic income is increasingly viewed as the only viable way of reconciling two of their respective central objectives: poverty relief and full employment.
There is a wide variety of proposals around. They differ according to the amounts involved, the source of funding, the nature and size of the reductions in other transfers, and along many other dimensions. As far as short-term proposals are concerned, however, the current discussion is focusing increasingly on so-called partial basic income schemes which would not be full substitutes for present guaranteed income schemes but would provide a low - and slowly increasing - basis to which other incomes, including the remaining social security benefits and means-tested guaranteed income supplements, could be added.
Many prominent European social scientists have now come out in favour of basic income - among them two Nobel laureates in economics. In a few countries some major politicians, including from parties in government, are also beginning to stick their necks out in support of it. At the same time, the relevant literature - on the economic, ethical, political and legal aspects - is gradually expanding and those promoting the idea, or just interested in it, in various European countries and across the world have started organizing into an active network. "
See also the "Triple Revolution Memorandum" from 1964, which I quote here:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html
"The fundamental problem posed by the cybernation revolution in the U.S. is that it invalidates the general mechanism so far employed to undergird people's rights as consumers. Up to this time economic resources have been distributed on the basis of contributions to production, with machines and men competing for employment on somewhat equal terms. In the developing cybernated system, potentially unlimited output can be achieved by systems of machines which will require little cooperation from human beings. As machines take over production from men, they absorb an increasing proportion of resources while the men who are displaced become dependent on minimal and unrelated government measures -- unemployment insurance, social security, welfare payments. These measures are less and less able to disguise a historic paradox: That a substantial proportion of the population is subsisting on minimal incomes, often below the poverty line, at a time when sufficient productive potent
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
No we're not. Between the state and Federal governments, nearly a trillion dollars a year is spent on over 120 different poverty assistance programs. That's enough to just give every family in poverty $60K/year. These and other entitlements are growing & out of control. We could drop DoD spending to zero and we'd still have massive deficits.
And between those same governments, they bring in nearly $6 trillion dollars, and that's even with some of the lowest tax revenues in relation to GDP in over half a century. Anyone who doesn't think defense spending, Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security do not make up the majority of our spending clearly has never done any research on the subject. Those three things alone comprise over 60% of our federal government spending. So-called safety net programs make up roughly 13% of our spending.
You've been given your source, so if you wish to continue denying it that's your right, but it won't change the truth.
Actually I am a disabled combat vet who was retired after 24 years. I don’t get disability because I earn “too much”. I spent most of my career in the Third World so I get a little peeved when I see the “poor” in America with cable, internet, cell phone, and a car while on welfare because they don’t want to work. There are plenty of jobs out there but too many people feel above doing any hard work. And according to the VA, NCHV, and HUD vet homelessness is 13% and declining so get your facts straight. Have you worked a STANDOWN week? Volunteered at a VA or military hospital? Well I do so keep your childish insults to yourself you uniformed idoit.
No good deed goes unpunished.
I'm a veteran and know a lot of veterans (mostly vietnam veterans). I'm very glad that veteran homelessness is dropping, applaud WalMart for saying they'll hire any veteran that applies, but the US treats its veterans abysmally. One fellow I know needs viagra to make love to his wife, but the VA will only prescribe cialis, which doesn't work for him. I hear worse stories all the time.
I'm troubled by the new statistic that says more Afghanistan soldiers deaths are by their own hand rather than by enemy fire. Why aren't these men and women diagnosed and treated before they become casualties?
As to "there's plenty of work", that's bullshit. We still have high unemployment; the jobs aren't there.
Free Martian Whores!