IT Job Market Recovering Faster Now Than After Dot-com Bubble Burst

tsamsoniw writes "More new tech jobs have emerged since the end of the past recession than during the same recovery timelines following the dot-com bubble burst and the early-1990s recession. What's more, the unemployment rate among technology professionals is now half that of the national average — with especially low unemployment rates for database administrators and network architects. What's not clear, though, is how many unemployed techies aren't being counted because they've abandoned job searches."

Comments

At least one

[tverbeek]

Well, I've pretty much stopped looking. I suppose what I'm doing now counts as a "tech job", but the IT job market sure has lost a lot of appeal to me. Who wants to get chewed up and spit out again?

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like at every job in the history of working? There is not a single employer out there who won't fire you when keeping you around is more expensive than letting you go.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't give up. Hope makes the heart grow fonder.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

I was (still am) out of work for a long, long time. spent 5 years at a big-name bay area company only to get rif'd when a huge org change happend.

for the first 6 months, I looked and looked hard. companies were not hiring and those that were, were asking for god, himself. nothing you could do would be good enough and the rates were below market, taking advantage of the poor job market.

I gave up, started my own one-man company in the hardware/software area and made some product prototypes. was hoping to bring them to manufacturing but was a bit outside my experience level (I did the hardware design, software/firmware, mechanicals, user interface, pretty much everything, all using home lab equip I bought used on ebay).

FINALLY, once the year turned over, I started getting calls from companies and recruiters. like the flood gates opened! night and day. not sure why, exactly, but I'm not complaining!

it was a very dry period for a few years. fwiw, I have 30+ years writing C code in the networking field and have spent the last 20 yrs in the bay area. yet I could not get anywhere during the dry-spell of the last few years.

I hope this up-turn is going to stay. we have been at bottom long enough!

(wish me luck, too; I have some onsites this and next week).

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for all those companies that kept employees on as long as they could, hoping the economy would improve sooner rather than later. I have many customers who could have trimmed staff but chose to lose the money instead.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

once they see how old you are they'll stop calling, dad

Re:At least one

[Synerg1y]

*shrug* so be smarter than a sheep and get out as the high tide starts to recede (2-3y is the trend I believe), you only have yourself to blame for outstaying your usefulness. It's just how IT is nowadays, the days when knowing html could net you 6 figures are long gone. If employers start to see their workers rotate themselves, it just might motivate them to improve conditions in IT and offer incentives. Live to work man, live to work...

Re:At least one

[GodInHell]

I'm out. Changed careers after the .com bubble.

Re:At least one

[Cryacin]

Same here. My current employer almost went belly up keeping everyone on without the work. Eventually when faced with either closing their doors, my boss took everyone in a room and explained it had gotten worse, asked who had options and if they were willing to exercise them, and then the remainder were let go with the crystal clear understanding that they did everything they could, that it was certainly not by bad performance on their part, and that should things turn around, they will be the first to get a call.

Contrary to what they teach you at the Ivy league schools, as the employees were treated like reasonable people, they treated the business owners the same way. Some left of their own accord, and the rest although terrified about being out in the cold, understood and agreed that this was the only course of action.

Fast forward a few months, and most of the people who left, are now back working for us, as things have turned around. The rest are all in well paying jobs, and have nothing but good things to say. If only more employers worked in this fashion.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

And a bunch of those probably went bust.

Re:At least one

[redneckmother]

"It's not the despair - I can deal with the despair. It's the HOPE."

Re:At least one

[Synerg1y]

Sounds like you're an engineer, when your career single tracks on say C programming, you may have to expand your search to national to effectively land a job. Moving is good for you anyways, but it sounds like you proved / demonstrated your skills with your self-start project showing employers a side of you that was either missing or under-represented opening doors. A good example of how to re-enter the job market and demonstrate your value to an org.

Re:At least one

[GodInHell]

It's the clutch and hold phenomena. You don't spend a penny at the end of your fiscal year that can be saved and reported as additional net revenue as of 12/31. Once the arbitrary deadline is passed, you can start doing the job hunt that you should have started in October. Another example of the efficiency of the invisible hand of the market (i.e. short-term oriented corporate leadership gaming the numbers to increase the stock value, and thus their benefits and pay).

This is mostly limited to publicly traded companies, but any company that emphasizes end of calendar year financials is open to this kind of manipulation. Spend less, make more, at least on paper, and you do better.

Re:At least one

[kelemvor4]

"It doesn't really matter. I uh, I don't like my job, and, uh, I don't think I'm gonna go anymore."

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

What annoys me are the clueless recruiter who dare to ask "why have you been out of work more than six months?" as if they don't already know. Don't call me and then harass me!

Or, those who ask me if I know the hiring manager's name. I only fell for that one once with Mike Borgasano used to be at Skillstorm now at KForce, when he had a recruiter call my supervisor at one job and the recruiter practically gave me away when my supervisor asked how the recruiter got his name.

Now I only offer an agency contact or an authorized HR contact, and recruiters are audibly offended they couldn't get a lead from me.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

its double-edged, though! I was proud of my design and implementation and on some early interviews, I actually took my hardware with me and gave a demo of it if I was allowed. it never went well, for some reason. I think it put some employers off! they thought 'he's too hardware focused and this is a pure software job'. not realizing that there is over 10k lines of c/c++ code in my embedded project, not to mention the linux host side of things (the ip stack).

I got tagged as 'too entreprenurial' and not enough of a team player. go figure! I worked on my own because I had to and I could not afford to hire anyone. that does not mean I avoid group work. but companies are very quick to summary judge you and there is such a thick stack of resumes waiting, they won't spend time with you to see that you are 'not just a hardware guy'.

when I talked about my own company, some people were not sure I'd want to stick around at -their- company. that was not true, as I was (and am) fully ready to make the change back to the corp sw-eng job again, but most companies were not happy to take any chances. 'he might leave!'. gee, that applies to anyone, though.

too much of something or too little. life is about finding the right quantity, I guess ;)

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I have held several government jobs and have worked with a lot of worthless IT people that they keep on for no logical reason. Yeah it doesn't pay as well as the private sector, but the benefits are still pretty good. Not as good as they were and they keep getting cut, but still. But I always left because I wanted to and never was concerned about being downsized.

Re:At least one

[CptNerd]

HR will always find something when you're actually too old (expensive) in their opinion.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't matter - he said those employers don't exist. I know they do. As does Cryacin above you.

Painting all employers as evil money-grubbing bastards just shows the original poster's political leanings. Well, that and the fact that he is either a fool or a propagandist.

Re:At least one

[Synerg1y]

I've never been "hired" by HR, have you? They just screen resumes, a wise career adviser once recommend to me to tailor my resume to the job description if I really want it and include a cover letter. In grateful's case I'd simply state I made this badass project and have all the skills necessary to do it for the potential company, I wouldn't mention the words "entrepreneur", or "own company" anywhere, they play the buzz word game, so should you, it's only fair after all.

Re:At least one

[Charliemopps]

I love my job, although the beginning of the year is always a bit stressful. We're always looking for people, just not people with you're attitude. ;-) No offense, just trying to point out something that's probably been obvious in a lot of your job interviews. A positive, upbeat person not only outperforms those with a negative outlook, they usually help those around them perform better as well. My one job is to make my boss happy, everything else are just means to that end. Look at it like that, be ok with that, and you'll be amazed how much happier you'll be at work... and how fast you'll get pay raises.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

#include

...gonna have to move you downstairs, m'kay?

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I have 30+ years writing C code

Never say you have more than 15 years experience in a particular technology field. It makes you sound like an assembly-line worker or someone who found a rut to curl up and die in.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Goodwill is a currency of its own. One may ascribe the notion as some cosmic karma and such, but it really is simply building up trust and respect. Treat a man like an actual human being and reciprocity will do its thing. When I was trying to get into the software development workforce, I had chosen poorly in selecting academic credentials and all that so I had to prove myself from a lower starting point and work up to it. When I was finally getting out of the contractor rut, my employer at the time had no means to hire me; they were barely in the black. I worked out a very illegal deal with my employer to keep me on past the legal termination date(Washington state has some particularly evil laws regarding software related contract workers contract length), but without official title or wages to reflect my position as an actual developer. It was just a handshake agreement, but after some time I was finally hired on and compensated as well.

Corporations, those fascistic entities that do not exist by their ability to serve willing customers in society but rather through use of state power, may not have many stories like mine but that is another issue. Where peaceful creativity and voluntary exchange are the standard, people react well to reciprocity. In this sort of work environment where violence is not how things 'get done', goodwill works.

Re:At least one

[karnal]

fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'red_stapler.h': No such stapler.

Re:At least one

[tverbeek]

The place I'm working now is the one place that ever let me go on decent terms. When they had a spot for me they asked me back. Even though the new job kinda sucks (more customer service than tech), it's better (I guess) than taking an objectively better job some place that will screw me over whenever it suits them.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I've spent time as a consultant for large and mid-sized companies (most of them publicly traded) and see pretty much the opposite of what you are describing. Q4 is always our busiest month because companies are in a scramble to spend any money left in their budget before the fiscal year ends and the clock resets. It's a combination of red tape, politics, and psychology at play.

You are right that senior leadership wants to push the numbers down to improve the stock value, but generally speaking the senior leadership makes and locks in fiscal decisions early in the fiscal year. It is up to middle management to spend and execute once the budgets are set. These guys know how to play the game and it would be political suicide to try to grow their budget year after year -- whomever has the largest pile of cash has the most power.

Let's say as the head of IT, you propose a budget of $1mil to cover existing operating costs and some minor initiatives for the upcoming year. If you only spent $750k by the end of the fiscal year then you over-budgeted and when financial discussions around next year's budget begins you'll have an uphill battle to increase or even maintain your existing budget. You have to spend every single penny, tell senior leadership that you did more with less, that your staff is overworked and underpaid, and that you need additional resources (headcount, infrastructure, etc) next year.

Re:At least one

[mjwx]

Same here. My current employer almost went belly up keeping everyone on without the work. Eventually when faced with either closing their doors, my boss took everyone in a room and explained it had gotten worse, asked who had options and if they were willing to exercise them, and then the remainder were let go with the crystal clear understanding that they did everything they could, that it was certainly not by bad performance on their part, and that should things turn around, they will be the first to get a call.

Contrary to what they teach you at the Ivy league schools, as the employees were treated like reasonable people, they treated the business owners the same way.

This,

In Australia its called voluntary redundancy. It's normally done earlier as employers have to pay out for redundancy. Good employers tend to use this before choosing redundancies.

Bad employers try to find reasons to fire people... then get dragged over the coals by Fair Work Australia. Beyond that, an employer who treats their staff well will find that staff will do the same for their employer, even to the point of taking a voluntary pay cut which is something I saw happen during the GFC (those six employees who took a cut are now earning more than they made in 2008 before the GFC).

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

All of you are only seeing the employment situation from your IT jobs point of view. Most other fields are laying off, going out of business, outsourcing too. At least you have a skill that requires more knowledge and experience than someone with only high school has. Over the holidays my 22yo sister told me what happened to her friend. Her friend's company was laying off whole departments and closing stores. Her boss told her that if she was willing to do a little extra she wouldn't have to worry about losing her job. She felt she had no choice and agreed. Now she gives her boss a BJ in the office twice a week. My sister said she has heard similar stories from others. If you ask around you will probably hear similar stories. Being desperate makes us all victims one way or the other.

Re:At least one

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I've spent time as a consultant for large and mid-sized companies (most of them publicly traded) and see pretty much the opposite of what you are describing.

I agree, I've never heard of "clutch and hold" and a google search only turns up automotive references for at least the first three pages of hits. While the opposite - "spend it or lose it" has been SOP for more decades than I've even been alive. FWIW, all of the first three pages of google's hits are variations on the theme of spending it now in order to justify future/continued budget allocations.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

There is not a single employer out there who won't fire you when keeping you around is more expensive than letting you go.

I'm working for a Fortune 50 company that doesn't do that. They're a pain to deal with in other ways, but there's no doubt that loyalty to/from employees is built into the way they do business.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

a lot of the game is getting past the HR filter. you have to guess what will get you points and what would be something they don't like. I haven't really crafted different versions for different jobs; the same file was sent out to all the jobs I applied to. I did what I did during the times that I stated. all of the jobs were important to me and I could describe what I did at each place. its about 3 pages, though; and I know that's long, but I have worked at a lot of places during the past 35 or so yrs ;) and the oldest item actually is a 1.5yr stay at a programming job; my very first 9-5 doing full time software for a living (assembler like stuff on 8080 systems for business clients).

you can guess my age by looking at my resume. but all of those items were significant and I felt they contributed to the experience base I now have. trimming stuff off or re-wording things just didn't seem right to me.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

if their plan was to downsize, then hire back at a discount, that's scummy.

if, otoh, they really did need to let go of people; and then, when times got better, they rehired the old people (many? or just you?) then that's kind of noble. and rare.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

an employer who treats their staff well will find that staff will do the same for their employer

where is this magical land you speak of? tell me. tell me!

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

INCLUDES+=/usr/include/milton

sorry, I left that part out.

try it now.

Re:At least one

[mjwx]

an employer who treats their staff well will find that staff will do the same for their employer

where is this magical land you speak of? tell me. tell me!

Australian Public Service?

Joking,

Employers like this are typically either mining giants (who can afford all the perks) or specialised SME's in my neck of the woods. When competing for the best talent in any professional service (IT, Engineering, Accounting) your workplace has to be competitive or you'll end up with the people they reject. It depends on company policy rather than the type or location of the company.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

And, in his case, starting his sentences with lower-case letters would make a perfect HR-level resume-stack shrinking judgment.

Being cautious about that sort of thing would be the first piece of advice I'd offer him if he's having difficulty finding a job. May seem trivial and irrelevant, but best not to have even the trivial and irrelevant against you in today's economy, where you can help it.

Re:At least one

[khallow]

Once the arbitrary deadline is passed, you can start doing the job hunt that you should have started in October.

You mean in November. That's after the US election and its uncertainty are over (for example, whether or not Obamacare was going to survive the next four years). The people hiring now have some idea of what the business environment is going to be like in the US.

As to end of calendar year financials, I think we don't need to look any further than taxes to find a reason there for hiring practices.I doubt many places are going to want to deal with employing someone for two weeks and dealing with all that paperwork when they can hire them a little later and get a year's worth of work for the same paperwork load.

Re:At least one

[DoofusOfDeath]

Serious question: what's the meme where people just write "this." as the first paragraph of a reply? I can't make sense of it.

Re:At least one

[CptNerd]

Take the advice of another old fart: Lose the old experience, and don't date anything past the last three jobs, or 7 years, whichever is least. Like you, I used to feel that all of my experience was (or could be) important, since it was broad in scope and domain. However, I found that taking all the old experience, pulling out some keywords, and paraphrasing the rest into short paragraphs made all the difference. When I looked like an old geek, I got nothing from anyone, even when I regularly updated my resume online. Once I removed any indication of my age, I started getting 2-3 phone calls and at least 5 emails per day, wanting me to talk to them. Fortunately by then I had a reasonably good job, and had only updated my resume on a whim, but it shows just how bad the age bias is in the computer HR field.

Hide your age, dye your hair, lose weight, and lie by omission on your resume. They'll lie to you about why they won't hire you, so feel free to "lie" to them about your age.

Re:At least one

[hairyfish]

Where do you work? Can I have a job?

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I worked at a place like that. Management who actually gives a shit about anything other than their job security is a damn rare thing these days, and I've only encountered a manager with an actual spine once in my 20+ years in the field.

    The usual MO in companies: One day, you come to the lobby, and they have multiple guards. People find their badge doesn't work. The guards then escort them to their cars, and say that any belongings will be sent to the address on file, and any delay to the contrary will be an immediate criminal trespass charge. Most managers don't even have the nuts to actually say "you're fired" face to face, they have to disable badges, lock out in AD, and have the dis-hired find out about it when their badge doesn't lift the parking garage gate.

After the firings, the people who are survived that RIF find that there are at least 4-5 new H-1Bs, and a note from management to bring the guys up to speed even if means learning Hindi.

This only will get worse... Congress is looking at doubling the number of total H-1B permits this year, so in fields like IT, the "only" 120,000 permits would trash the market.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious question: what's the meme where people just write "this." as the first paragraph of a reply? I can't make sense of it.

this

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

My understanding is that it isn't actually a meme per se, but borrowed from programming languages.

http://www.quirksmode.org/js/this.html

So, I frequently say "this, a thousand times this", in javascript this suggests that I'm loading the function with goodies, or in response to something someone says, it means I have a lot to say in agreement. The previous comment is, essentially, treated as the function.

I'm not much of a linguist, so I'm sure there's a more concise definition somewhere.

Re:At least one

[radish]

I read a lot of resumes. 3 pages for 35 years is fine...it's the 6+ pages for less than 10 years which get me.

Re:At least one

[tverbeek]

They lost a huge chunk of their business (government contract), and since payroll was 90% of their costs they had to cut people. Several years later, I was unemployed again and using one of the people still there as a work reference, so they knew I was looking, and they invited me personally to take a new (different) position that they thought I'dt be able to do. It was actually a poor match for my skills, and I had to finagle my way into a different position that I'm qualified for, but it's a bird in the hand, y'know?

Re:At least one

[The Dancing Panda]

It's short for "This is what I wanted to say"

Re:At least one

[MisterSquid]

It's a reiteration and reinforcement of the parent, similar to "+1", "Exactly what the parent said", "Me, too!", and "Hear, hear".

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say that goodwill is a currency, but trust me, if it comes to raises or promotions and it is competition, any illusion of goodwill goes out the window, and the daggers come out. Even if the battle is over (say there is office politics of who looks best for surviving an upcoming reorg), you would be surprised at people who are happy and offer to be used as references will turn on a person and say stuff like, "he never worked there, he's lying", "works great with supervision", or "best advertisement for Tata around".

In my IT experience, even if you spend your time building goodwill, it really doesn't matter because people will view you as an easy target come the next outsourcing/layoff run.

In IT, coworkers are not your friends, and they will not hesitate to turn on someone if it comes to getting an atta-boy from a manager, much less raises/promotions.

Re:At least one

[DoofusOfDeath]

Thanks.

Re:At least one

[sliverstorm]

Sounds kind of like the story of On-Live

Re:At least one

[Lothsahn]

TheGratefulNet,

I work for a great company in the Detroit, Michigan area. We are and have been hiring people who are like you--people who build stuff and get things done. Innovative? Awesome. Went and build your own hardware project? Awesome. I hired a guy a couple years who did just that, because his hardware project impressed me so much.

Age doesn't deter us--we have plenty of people your age and older (and plenty younger too). I've been a developer with the company for a number of years and I really love the place.

Feel free to drop me an email. I can absolutely make sure your resume isn't "lost in a stack". Lothsahn at yahoo

Re:At least one

[lightknight]

Hmm, I had something similar happen to me at a recent interview. I was tagged as spending too much time doing IT, and trying for a position outside my skill-level: in short, I was pegged as a hardware monkey, who suddenly wanted to jump into programming (never mind my CS degree, and so on). It probably didn't help that I wanted to move into more serious work (framework development), as opposed to continuing to do web development (glass-ceiling effect...once you do web app work, people are loathe to let you develop anything else).

Gone are the days when a programmer was supposed to know some admin skills, some hardware skills, and (of course) programming.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't chalk it all up to ageism. I read a lot of resumes, and I can tell you the ability to summarize your qualifications in a short space is what's important. Typically as you list more accomplishments, it's just more words to glaze over. At this point, I have to read a 2-3 page work history to even get an idea of what role you might be suited for. A long career trajectory may appear inconsistent (sys admin here, developer there, manager/leadership next) and leave the resume reader left trying to identify if you're a right fit.

Re:At least one

[tlhIngan]

Once the arbitrary deadline is passed, you can start doing the job hunt that you should have started in October.

You mean in November. That's after the US election and its uncertainty are over (for example, whether or not Obamacare was going to survive the next four years). The people hiring now have some idea of what the business environment is going to be like in the US.

As to end of calendar year financials, I think we don't need to look any further than taxes to find a reason there for hiring practices.I doubt many places are going to want to deal with employing someone for two weeks and dealing with all that paperwork when they can hire them a little later and get a year's worth of work for the same paperwork load.

Don't forget the fiscal cliff crap as well. Because companies were really looking closely at what would happen - would they pass something/anything and avoid massive hikes in taxes and cuts in spending? Or will they manage to hold on for a few more months of business as usual?

In other words - could companies spend money and invest in new technology and people, or should they hold onto that cash in order to weather what may happen?

Business hates uncertainty.

Re:At least one

[ixidor]

NO. No, it is "this", get it right ...

Re:At least one

[Richard Dick Head]

He's talking about the public sector...spend your budget or some empty suit will pounce and reallocate the difference to some pork project.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

I may give your method a try. I bet it works for a lot of people.

it just feels wrong to omit things that I did, spent years of my life doing it and I usually gained new skills (soft or tech) at each place.

I hear what you're saying, but its hard to pick which of your paragraphs and whole jobs must be thrown under the bus.

if the current round of interviews and onsites don't pan out, I will actually try your method. hack and chop things out, remove older jobs, I guess its worth a try.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

"...yeah, if you're not into the whole brevity thing"

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

One note in IT:

If you are older than 30-35, you will be definitely at a disadvantage for any type of work. Most places will look at a 40+ as someone who failed to move into management when they should (thus not worth bothering to hire), or that they will be talking about how cool the graphics are on their 3270 emulator. Age discrimination is a big thing in the field, until you get something like a CISSP, RHCA, or an end-game certificate that actually will get someone to actually bother reading what you wrote.

Re:At least one

[jimmyfrank]

I work for myself and can fire clients if need be. I'll do whatever they want since my rate is high but I don't have to put up with anyone's bullcrap if I don't feel like it. Being independent kicks ass.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Done, at least as far as the resume is concerned. Last few positions spanning up to seven years, only the last three positions are dated.

Re:At least one

[bzipitidoo]

The problem is, despite employer protestations to the contrary, there are still too many job seekers chasing too few jobs. Otherwise, you wouldn't say things like "as you list more accomplishments, it's just more words to glaze over", and moan about the sheer quantity of resumes you have to wade through, you poor thing you. You speak of "right fit", which is an euphemistic way of saying you get a lot of people you think of as overqualified. You won't understand how good employers have it until you are glad you can get anyone at all who is capable of doing the work. How can more experience ever be a bad thing?

So many employers are so incredibly picky, and not out of any genuine difficulty in finding people. The difficulty is in screening out the hundreds of applications for each position. Even if 90% of them aren't qualified, that's still 10 qualified people per position.

The best evidence that this supposed shortage of talent is actually an employer manufactured problem is pay. There are plenty of people who can code. Are you having to pay more to get good people? Not that I've heard. Nor do you have to hunt for people. You're like the beautiful high school girl who needs a prom date. You just mention you don't have one yet, then kick back and enjoy it as boy after boy makes their pitch. Or you complain that none of the boys are worthy, none of them are trying hard enough, and even get a kick out of embarrassing the scrawny, nerdy ones for thinking they had a chance.

Re:At least one

[bloobamator]

resume.trunc(lines=50). ageism is real. my only saving grace is that i've gotten so damn good at what i do.

Re:At least one

[bloobamator]

That's the reason my client didn't pay me for my October hours until mid-January. They even violated their own contractual payment terms by several days, just so they could avoid writing down the accounts payable in 2012.

Re:At least one

[sydneyfong]

'he's too hardware focused and this is a pure software job'. not realizing that there is over 10k lines of c/c++ code in my embedded project, not to mention the linux host side of things (the ip stack).

You're probably going to tell me to get off your lawn (I'm younger than your years of C experience), but anyways... My impression is that the kind of C code written for embedded systems is quite different from the C (or C++) code written for "full" applications. In embedded systems you write your own linked list, whereas in a modern non-embedded system you just #include <list> or something. Whereas the challenge in embedded systems is working with the limited feature set of the device, in non-embedded systems the challenge is really on how to structure the code and design to make things extensible and maintainable in the long run. Whereas in embedded systems it is often necessary to deploy tricks and hacks to optimize for performance, it is usually better to keep the code readable and easy to understand when your system has a quite few cycles left.

At least that's my understanding.

And my anecdotal experience is that people drawn to programming on embedded systems, tinker with hardware, writing low level code, quite often don't really "get" those more subtle nuances of larger scale software design and programming. Especially that you don't seem to have been interested in dabbling in the latest fads of this century (scripting/JIT-ed languages, grandiose "frameworks" etc)

And really, 10k of code is nothing... (especially if it contains a bunch of reimplemented linked lists and binary trees -- when we can #include <map>, those hundreds of lines of reimplementation of standard data structures can be reduced to a few lines)

I mean, I'm pretty much an idiot on low level programming and hardware, and I have quite a bit of respect for people who can tinker with electronics without frying them (I don't know why but I seem to have a talent for frying electronics). But from what I've seen, there is indeed a difference between the mindset of a "software guy" and a "hardware guy", and if that's the concern from the people making hiring decisions in the companies you've interviewed with, perhaps you need to somehow have a response to that, at least more than "I know how to write 10k lines of embedded C code".

Anyway this is what I'd be thinking if I were on the interviewer side for a "pure software" job. I might have been a bit blunt, but I suspect quite a few interviewers/employers would be thinking along these lines. You might want to give it a thought, and perhaps somehow preemptively reassure your prospective employers that you know more than writing glorified assembler (aka C), given that you're having some interviews soon. Good luck :)

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

your comments and observations are pretty much spot-on.

there is no worker shortage. its BS manufactured by the corps who want to -claim- that its hard for them to find local applicants and are always looking to bring imported and indentured workers into the country.

sometimes, a person is overqual'd and really will get bored of doing a job that is a few ticks below their seniority level. but the thing is: if they're an older worker, they'll be -much- more sincere and genuine and if they say they'll be ok with that job, trust me, they are not lying. they'll be 'grateful' (lol) to have a job. otoh, if they're quite young, its likely they will get bored and hop away at the first chance. you just have to have a feel for the person and not just assume that having lots of experience should auto-disqual them.

the other comment I have is about companies insisting on 'hiring only the best'. I have a problem with that. first of all, its BS. secondly, its not sustainable (for our society). does the average programmer guy deserve a job? I think so. but if you 'only hire the top/best' how does joe average (who can write competant code, even if not stellar code) get a job? should he sweep floors with his comp sci background because he's 'not the best' programmer you've seen?

some social concience is NEEDED in the US, right now. joe may not be 'the best' but who says you have to PAY him top salary levels? pay him average and it would be fair. you'll get work out of him, you'll keep a guy off the street, you'll be helping the economy and you'll be helping YOUR FELLOW MAN.

all honorable things. and yes, you'll have to 'live' with the fact that he's not a super genius. guess what, most of your staff isn't, now, either, even if you think they are.

a balanced company and group has all levels of ability. when I see that, I see a compassionate company, with a soul. I would be more motivated to work for that kind of place that an 'only stars, please' kind of place.

Re:At least one

[TheGratefulNet]

in my code, on the embedded side, I have 4k of ram, 30k of program flash and I think its 512 or 1k of eeprom.

linked lists? what's that? ;) not enough memory for pointers or speed to walk lists. nothing fancy (in data structs) is used, here.

funny you mention LL's though. I have never had to write one from scratch. not once. I'll grab tailqueue (or similar) from the unix header files and start from there or just plain use it. and I would use that stuff a lot on higher level app code, but again, I never once had to reinvent the wheel. I remember the compsci 101 level courses and the first time I saw trees and LL's. it was fascinating and I loved it. but that was in the mid 80's and once I understood what trees and links were for, I filed away the concept but never had to write my own code from scratch, for it. the libraries are all done and have been done for decades. you may tune them, but to write them from scratch? well, its a very common interview question and it drives me nuts. essentially its a memory test (of you!) and if you have done it too long ago, you won't be able to derive it so fast.

I remember the quadratic equation, too, but I would not be able to derive it, live, in front of anyone, today. could I -use- it? yes. but they don't ask for you to use things, they ask for derivations or memory recall. its not realistic and not how one does coding when at your desk, at work.

at any rate, the embedded stuff I'm doing is only recent (last few years). before that I was a networking guy, writing NMS software as well as agent code. the NMS stuff ran on unix hosts (some gui, some poller, some database) and the agent stuff was running on routers, switches, and boxes like that. in those jobs, the only 'touching hardware' was plugging cables in and reconfiguring lab gear for various topologies.

when I was applying for jobs, I would be happy doing firmware, 'pure' software, even system test (though I don't have formal qa background, I would have taken a job doing qa if offered to me).

the past few years, the bay area was like the island of doctor more-"no!". hopefully they'll start saying 'yes', again.

Re:At least one

[crazyjj]

Well, I've pretty much stopped looking.

Try China or India.

Re:At least one

[crazyjj]

where is this magical land you speak of?

Follow the sound of thunder.

Re:At least one

[Cryacin]

In IT, coworkers are not your friends, and they will not hesitate to turn on someone if it comes to getting an atta-boy from a manager, much less raises/promotions.

I feel true pity for you for the doucebags that you've had to work with.

I also feel pity for the rest of the people that have to work with you.

Re:At least one

[Gr8Apes]

Unfortunately, I can relate to his statements, although you'd probably like working for me. I've taken the tact, for instance, when leaving a job I will only give notice once it's beneficial to me. This means that my notice might have 0 lead time, although I truly despise leaving a workplace with no notice. I learned this lesson the hard way, by essentially watching co-workers getting literally walked out the door by security after giving their notice in more than one company, and in others being treated so badly after their notice that several decided to leave early. Early on, I gave a 2 week notice, and then was walked out after 6 days, after, of course, I had transferred what they deemed enough work to other workers. BTW, that meant 4 additional unexpected unpaid vacation days, along with some additional repercussions that were detrimental to me. I was prepared to leave with 2 weeks, or work the full 2 weeks, but not be used the way the company used me. Of course, all my co-workers were aware of the abuse, I believe they got quite a few 0 notices after that. Karma.

Re:At least one

[Gr8Apes]

You've got to tailor your message to your potential employer. I don't talk about more than 80% of what I've done because it goes in directions that my next employer may have 0 interest in. You have to drive the interview carefully when you have enough experience, to hit highlights that the potential employer may be interested in, and downplay or fully ignore those that they may not. For instance, perhaps you were a sous-chef or the captain of a fishing vessel in an earlier life. This is not something that would come up in your interview, except maybe at the very end during the personality/hobbies outside of work, and then only carefully. Do you know networking (for a company that programs DPI systems): why yes, I've programmed routers and worked on the lower 5 levels of the OSI stack, even if you created the hardware and programmed it. Tailoring your interview is crucial to heightening the interest of the prospective employer, especially if they're going to pay for your experience. Not all companies have good interviewers, so sometimes you have to steer and guide the interview into directions you believe would interest the employer.

Re:At least one

[YttriumOxide]

How can more experience ever be a bad thing?

The most recent time I had to interview for people, I was looking for a mid-level developer role; good with Python; embedded experience considered a bonus. A total of nine people applied for the job. Three were clearly far too inexperienced, two had totally unrealistic salary expectations for the job (we actually pay pretty well, but these guys were asking for nearly DOUBLE my pay, and I'm the supervisor of my department), so that left four to interview.

Out of those four, two were overqualified and two were a good fit. I interviewed all four and confirmed they knew what they said they knew (they all appeared to; so no liars, which was good) as well as did my best to get a feel for their personality and expectations for the job. I, in combination with HR, then had to make a decision.

If we took one of the overqualified people (who were in fact brilliant), they would have been bored/frustrated with the work; would not have taken well to me being their boss; would be more likely to leave when a better position came along; and would have cost us more in salary. So, despite being brilliant, they would have been the wrong choice.

We ended up hiring one of the two "good fit" people (based purely on his personality, since from a technical skill level both were equally capable of the job from what I could see). He's been with us for about half a year now and is (by all accounts from our last employee appraisal meeting) extremely happy with the job and we're extremely happy with the work he's doing.

Had it been necessary to choose between underqualified and overqualified, I would of course have chosen overqualified. But I'm also sure that that person would not be as happy in the job as the guy we got and in the long run it would've turned out bad for everyone involved.

Re:At least one

[Gr8Apes]

I tailor my resume, and remove a lot of dates. No one needs to know when I got my degrees, nor what they were in specifically, nor any special artifacts I created while at school, or even any additional universities of which I may be considered an alumnus. The main school and relevant degree(s) are all that are needed, and at this point, they only serve to back my experience. I also have sliced off at least 10 years of employment history, no one cares what you did 20 or 30 years ago. It's generally irrelevant, at least in the tech industry. Finally, should you have a beard et al, it may pay to trim or shave, especially if it ages you. First appearances with in person interviews can kill you before you've said a single word, so if you're prematurely gray, you may wish to do something to minimize its effects. Don't paint it black though, that is worse than being gray.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

That's hilarious. I'm at the other end of the spectrum: finding qualified people in the slew of crap resumes. Yes, there's a lot of people out there looking for work. Unfortunately, many are sending resumes for things they are entirely unqualified for. There is no pay issue at my company, we pay well enough (ie, above the salary.com rates for base pay and with various bonus potentials possibly in the upper 15%, depending upon level and company performance) Nor are working conditions terrible, unless the ability to work remote and travel around 10% are considered "terrible". We get plenty of resumes, we only interview maybe 10-15% that get through the initial screening. Of those, we hire maybe 10%, at least near as I can tell from those I've interviewed. As mentioned previously, several of those were in their 50s, at least, as we're looking for "senior" people as well as regular developers. And no, I'm not advertising here as I prefer to remain mostly anonymous.

Re:At least one

[tlhIngan]

That's the reason my client didn't pay me for my October hours until mid-January. They even violated their own contractual payment terms by several days, just so they could avoid writing down the accounts payable in 2012.

If you're a contractor, you probably have some terms to that and can/should charge interest for the late payment. After all, you should be submitting invoices on something like net 30 or whatever your contract specifies (usually net 30), so October must be paid by end of November. Delaying a month and a half gives you the right to charge a month and a half of interest, plus half a month for November (also overdue).

Might want to investigate it.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

You brought hardware into a pure-software interview? Did you also show off your cooking abilities? Dog-training skills?

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

As a former recruiter this is spot on. I cannot speak highly enough about tailoring your resume. You have on average 11 seconds per resume before you move on. Bullet points at the top with the experience they are looking for is key. Remember this is essentially a personal ad you're placing and you're trying to make yourself look like the company's dreamboat in a field against other just as attractive candidates. If you're having trouble hire someone to write your resume, it should only cost between $5 and $50 depending on the level of service you're getting, if you want more prices go up.

Once you're asked to interview, practice your pitch over and over. Think of everything you'd want to know if you were in their shoes and have answers ready. On interview day SHINE YOUR SHOES and iron your clothes. Make sure you have a real tie, tied in a knot which matches your body type, you're tech people and the answers are on youtube. If you're as qualified as another candidate on paper, doing this will almost guarantee the job. Following these rules I've only gotten and interview roughly 80% and only been turned down twice, even when others were more qualified on paper. Once you're in that room it doesn't matter what's written down, it's how they FEEL about you. If you feel like a million bucks is easy to convince someone else you're worth it too. Hang in there though, too much talent is going to waste in this country and it has to turn soon.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

TheGratefulNet, you sound like a guy I worked with who created this "awesome" spam filtering appliance and spent most of his time working on it instead of contributing to the workload. Unfortunately I didn't trust him after he bragged about the back doors he had created to remotely connect to the appliance whenever he so desired.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

I stopped looking, took my savings, and moved to a ski town.

Fsck IT, Sunny and gorgeous, today. Fresh white snow under blue sky.Going snowboarding.

COnsidering getting a job then outsourcing it to China.

Re:At least one

[pnutjam]

My understanding is that if the employers policies require 2 weeks notice and you give 2 weeks notice they have to pay you for those two weeks, whether they require you to work or not. I got a week of paid vacation at one place that didn't want to keep me around for the full two weeks.

Re:At least one

[GodInHell]

Different sized organizations.

Re:At least one

[GodInHell]

Good point.

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Omitting is not lying, People do not respond well to too much information, and tend to make bad/wrong conclusions from any information beyond what they are looking for. By providing potential employers with too much information you are in fact hindering them from doing their job (get the work done).

Realistically knowing all the variables is key to making solid code; But in the real world everything is breaking, about to fall apart and half the time already broken but no one knew it was broken to begin with(or cared).

There's no need to lie to people, But omitting information is not lying, it's misdirection (these are not the same thing), you can still be honest using misdirection. (If it's ethical remains to be seen based on the circumstances)

Re:At least one

[Gr8Apes]

You would be technically correct. I talked to an employment lawyer.He said yes, you have a case. It'll cost you 50K after you win. You need to be at least in the hole 100K before it's worth suing. His advice, along with 2 others I consulted, was take it as an expensive lesson in how business is run, at least by some.

Re:At least one

[pnutjam]

Lawyer = 50K
compliant with Department of Labor, or state agency = free

You at least filed a complaint?

Re:At least one

[Anonymous Coward]

Aluminium Baseball bat. $100 tops. Complaint filed.

Re:At least one

[cheesybagel]

If you want to change careers just do not include any non-relevant information in your resume.

Re:At least one

[Gr8Apes]

Unfortunately, it's an at-will state. So there was no labor dept complaint. There's also the potential issue there of getting yourself blacklisted with future employers. The lawyer wasn't really 50K, but said for less than 100K, it wasn't worth it, and at 50K you'd have some cash left over, depending upon how nasty the previous employer wanted to be about it. Given the state in question, the at-will, and the contract, there wasn't a whole lot that made it compelling to file suit. But, it did serve my colleagues well as a lesson in what not do, laid bare the crap polices of the company, and saved me significantly more in a later case, where the same activities were considered normal practice (new CEO brought those in). Just FYI, both companies are now "former" companies, as they were folded into other entities with all personnel let go as they were facaded on the acquiring entities sites or just failed.

Re:At least one

[Thumper_SVX]

Ah, so you worked at Citigroup, too?

Re:At least one

[NickGnome]

"if their plan was to downsize, then hire back at a discount, that's scummy."
...

That sounds like MSFT's perma-temp scam.

Re:At least one

[NickGnome]

A: "an employer who treats their staff well will find that staff will do the same for their employer"
...

B: "where is this magical land you speak of? tell me. tell me!"

It's not so much "where" as "when". Before H-1B. Firms used to fly US citizens in for interviews, used to cover relocation costs and give you a couple weeks of temporary food and housing while you found a place and settled in, and 2-12 weeks of new-hire training.

And we used to put in 80-100 hour work-weeks as product release dates approached. Part of our motivation was that we were developing great apps, though. At one firm, our apps were helping other firms manufacture better products, so there was a multiplier effect. (Some French firm owns the source, now.) Most of what I see being churned out these days is either downright evil, or minor little toys that millenials get all flighty over; nothing of substance.

When things started to unravel, I gave them something like 8 months of notice, and even that was in the form of "Either you can transfer me by then to any of the firm's software product dev groups where I can better use my knowledge and abilities, or I'm going back to university full-time to re-tool, because you're wasting me here." And then I got several things to a point and others prepared to the point where I could hand them off by that date, instead of immediately jumping ship.

Now, they ask, "When can we expect you to have moved yourself and all your belongings to within a few blocks of this particular one of our hundreds of offices around the USA and then schedule an appointment for a gauntlet/barrage of trivial pursuit tests to find a pretext on which to declare you 'unqualified' for this 3 month gig at 60% of what you used to make per month (in a less expensive and higher quality of living location), because we have to fabricate justification for bringing in this cheap, young, pliant foreign labor with flexible ethics who faked his credentials and doesn't know squat, instead?"

Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

how many unemployed techies aren't being counted because they've abandoned job searches

And similarly, how many job postings really have a job behind them? (As opposed to being a "let's see who's out there" kind of posting.)

Re:Is the job market real?

[bogaboga]

. What's not clear, though, is how many unemployed techies aren't being counted because they've abandoned job searches.

How about phrasing the statement this way:

What's not clear, though, is how many unemployed techies aren't being counted because they've abandoned available jobs due to "unfavorable" work conditions.

I have been a victim so to speak. You see, I got a job but the employer wanted me to get "up-to-date" certification at my cost, at my time and then commit to working 5 days a week and being on-call at least one weekend every 6 weeks for the first year, then on-call for one of the weekends in two months.

Needless to say, I declined the offer....still looking.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm on call 365, any hour, and my employers haven't even wanted me to get certifications, on the outside chance I'd think I was worth more.

I do it because that's what I do, and believe it or not, it's kinda hard to get by on welfare alone with zero dependents. :/

Re:Is the job market real?

[niado]

I have been a victim so to speak. You see, I got a job but the employer wanted me to get "up-to-date" certification at my cost, at my time and then commit to working 5 days a week and being on-call at least one weekend every 6 weeks for the first year, then on-call for one of the weekends in two months.

Needless to say, I declined the offer....still looking.

This may have been sarcasm, and if so, a big whoosh to me, but if you seriously declined a job offer because they wanted you to get some certifications and be on call for 9 weekends per year, you evidently don't really need a job.

Re:Is the job market real?

[vux984]

I have been a victim so to speak. You see, I got a job but the employer wanted me to get "up-to-date" certification at my cost, at my time and then commit to working 5 days a week and being on-call at least one weekend every 6 weeks for the first year, then on-call for one of the weekends in two months.

That actually seems pretty reasonable to me; the only point I'd negotiate on would be the certifications at my cost relative to my starting wage and/or signing bonus.

Surely the 5 days a week, and being on call one weekend in 6 wasn't the deal breaker? Doctors deal with the same reality... people don't get sick only from 9 to 5, and computers are no more accomodating. Things break on weekends.

Re:Is the job market real?

[TheRealMindChild]

This is the problem though. Give an inch, a mile is taken. What is one more weekend? One less sick day? 30 more minutes to a day? You need to bring your own computer to work on.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Work a standard 9-5 week, and be on-call one weekend every month and a half."

Fuck, it's like they're bringing back slavery!

You were not a "victim, so to speak." You were an entitled little shit who didn't want to work, and instead prefer whining about how hard it is to find a job.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Kjella]

Well, I'm pretty sure the statistics are in the "white lie, black lie, statistics" category. Compare these:

Unemployment rate and Employment-population rate

Of course a little bit of that can be demographic changes but for the most part it's "hidden" unemployment in people studying, giving up, getting on some kind of benefits - no more of the population is actually employed today than back in late 2009. In the EU they've already started to run out of smoke and mirrors to cover up their unemployment and debt problems. The world economy is already down but right now I think it's more likely to get a kick in the groin than to get up on its feet.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Safety Cap]

So you're saying you don't know who your daddy is?

Re:Is the job market real?

[TheGratefulNet]

as long as they don't force you to use windows 8...

ok, I'm half kidding. I'd even tolerate win8 if there was a salary in it ;)

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds nice, I am expected to check my email at least hourly. If I am to be unavailable for more than an hour I must send an email to the team letting them know. I am always supposed to be available by phone. Overtime while not madatory is strongly encouraged. Weekend work is volunteer or voluntold your choice. For the first year the IT support phone was 1 of every 4 weeks and would ring as early as 5AM and as late as 2AM.
That being said I was fresh out of college a year and a half ago. I am allowed to touch just about every networking system. Large projects are thrown my way and failure is an option. (The projects just go up the chain) We have recently brought on more staff and things are getting easier. Most importantly I make half decent money and I still really like what I do.

Re:Is the job market real?

[mjwx]

You need to bring your own computer to work on.

Gadget allowances rock.

In my last job I bought an A$1800 Asus laptop, rented that back to the company for A$125 a month, over 24 months that's $3000 but that's really what less than what the company saved by me providing my own laptop (insurance et al.) plus I picked my own specs.

Above this I also received a A$500 per year allowance for work related gadgets, so tablets, phones and so forth.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Billly Gates]

How about feeding your kids and supporting your family? Do you care more about your ego than putting in ocassional extra help as required? I hope he does not have a family. If the grandparent has been out of work for 6 months (common today) and he knowingly turned it down because he would have to work one saturday sometime I bet any wife with common sense would leave him.

  My exgf is a chief who works 80 hours a week. Ask any business owner how many hours he or she works? ALOT! I have worked 2 jobs including a taco bell at night while I worked a job not in my field during the day with 4 hours sleep during the great recession.I have a college degree too and made deans list 3 times.Why? My step kids were eating mac and cheese and I loved them enough to suck it up until better times. It irritates the heck out of me when I read such things as a result of what I and othets been through.

Your employer owes you jack shit. They own the job and requirements. It is not 1999 anymore and if requiring you to pitch in every othermonth and keeping current on your skillset where you do not live in poverty sounds pretty darn reasonable to me. Many who work 70 hours a week make less than 30k a year! Be greateful you have a job?

Re:Is the job market real?

[RevDisk]

Wait, what? Please tell me this is sarcasm. If you consider yourself a victim because an employer wanted a cert, a 5 day work schedule and being on call every six weekends, I'd say you need to get out more.

If you want concessions, you could try asking for them. When I was younger, I really liked meeting up with my friends at Defcon. At varying jobs, I've gotten everything from "free extra vacation days" (called professional development or whatnot) to full paid trip. I always did a writeup, or a number of whitepages. I always learned something, and presented it to my manager. It was a win for both parties. Defcon is a very cheap conference, compared to a lot of other conferences I've attended. The knowledge gained was an excellent value. So were contacts. I learned more in the bars than I did from any of the presentations, but most of my more knowledgeable managers understood a beer at the right time can buy you tens of thousands of dollars of consulting advice.

Re on-call, did you ask if there are any metrics for the numbers of calls made, or incidents responded to? If the place is properly run, it should be infrequent to have to run in. I've fixed a lot of "on-call" incidents from my couch if the infrastructure was properly set up.

In every interview, I always remember I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. I tell them I can bring a lot to the table, and ask what they bring to the table besides a paycheck. Is their work interesting to me? Will I grow my own skills? Not (much) ego on my side. I just prefer not to work boring repeative tasks as the majority of my work.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been a victim so to speak. You see, I got a job but the employer wanted me to get "up-to-date" certification at my cost, at my time and then commit to working 5 days a week and being on-call at least one weekend every 6 weeks for the first year, then on-call for one of the weekends in two months.

Needless to say, I declined the offer....still looking.

You did the right thing.

Any responsible employer that requires a certification will find a way to pay for the certification & provide you with time to work on the material.

I've heard the lie of "one weekend, every six week" of on-call. Don't believe a word of it.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Nefarious Wheel]

Your employer owes you jack shit. They own the job and requirements. It is not 1999 anymore and if requiring you to pitch in every othermonth and keeping current on your skillset where you do not live in poverty sounds pretty darn reasonable to me. Many who work 70 hours a week make less than 30k a year! Be greateful you have a job?

In a practical sense, you're quite right. But statements like that make me think that perhaps union membership for IT people is not such a bad idea.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I got paid like a doctor, I'd be fine with working every weekend ever.

Re:Is the job market real?

[aztracker1]

Dunno I see 3-5 calls a week and a few dozen emails for open positions... though half are out of state.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Osgeld]

no, its not the position of a potential employer to bring in someone new AND educate them, they dont run a school, nor a daycare

 

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

no, its not the position of a potential employer to bring in someone new AND educate them, they dont run a school, nor a daycare

Remind me to never work for you.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I got paid like a doctor, I'd be fine with working every weekend ever.

Really? I am a doctor (a resident) and I get paid a little over 50k per year (about the same as my first tech job out of college in 1996 when you adjust for inflation). Only 5 more years to go and then...I can make as much as my friends who stayed in tech (which was my first career)

tldr; long hours. loooonnnnnng hours. Oh - and nightmares involving screwing up cases, killing people, and pagers running out of batteries.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Billly Gates]

There are two arguments. One is unionize and be idealistic and tell your employer to shove it! The other is realistic is the right now where your bank or landlord doesnt give a shit and you are there to meet demand. No more. No less. Demand on weekends yes people have systems that need tended care whether you want to watch football or not? Hence, why they pay you.

No one working as hard as unions ever got ahead in life. You get ahead working your ass off serving customers better than anyone else. You get promoted or your startup makes you a millionaire. That is capitalism and realistically if you force companies to do this they will hire less to cut costs and overwork or move to India where they do not have to put up with that nonsence. Unionizing in a global economy is not doable. Being responsible and realizing you cant pull market power anymore like you once did is something you need to do before you end up working 2 jobs at walmart and McDs due to your resume hole.

Re:Is the job market real?

[ChunderDownunder]

I was called in for an "agency interview" last week. That didn't go so well but they said they'd pass my details onto their other consultants.

A couple of days later, I see a posting on a job board for "5 positions available" from the same company, matching my skillset. No phone call - so yes, phantom job postings would seem to exist and I won't waste my time with that agency again in a hurry.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not 1999 anymore and if requiring you to pitch in every othermonth and keeping current on your skillset where you do not live in poverty sounds pretty darn reasonable to me. Many who work 70 hours a week make less than 30k a year! Be greateful you have a job?

You do realize that, with the numbers you gave, those many people who have families and work 70hrs/week making less than 30k/year are effectively under at least one poverty line, right? Citing your figures, they're making at most the equivalent of a $17,142/year ($8.24/hr, 40hrs/wk) full time job, assuming no overtime pay, which puts them $1,948 under the 2012 poverty line for a three-person household.

If you factor in overtime pay (1.5x pay for every hour over 40), at 70hrs/week and $30k/year they're actually making $2,045/year less than the federal minimum wage. For comparison, the national average for Shift Lead at Taco Bell is ~$9/hr. At 70hrs/week, with overtime, that works out to just shy of $40k/year.

In summary, your hard-working degree-toting friends are total suckers who have somehow managed to eke out less than the basest of wage-slaves.

Re:Is the job market real?

[Anonymous Coward]

With 2 jobs there is no overtime.

The point being that people who work harder get paid half have no trouble when you need hours. Not whine when you get paid twice as much and go on how they are poor victims. Just pisses them off and shows how out of touch that is. Especially if you are out of work!

Re:Is the job market real?

[jimmyfrank]

I think I see the problem, I've been working with the .net stack for years now and don't even have to look for work, it finds me. Most /. ers rip on MS constantly and yet seem to not find work easily, interesting.

Re:Is the job market real?

[cheesybagel]

The reality is doctors don't earn as much as some people think. Only if you are a surgeon chalking up a lot of hours doing surgery. But it takes a long time to get the degree and you will find little time to enjoy your money.

A computer engineer working similar overtime with as much experience in the field does not earn that much less really. What matters is if you feel good with yourself doing your current job or not.

Re:Is the job market real?

[cheesybagel]

People need to figure out in the current environment you need to spend more time constantly educating and re-educating yourself. Probably once every decade. So it is not surprising the unemployment and employment-population rates are like that. I am more concerned with those people in benefits which cannot hope to find a job because they were outsourced and cannot reeducate themselves.

IT Unemployment Rate = No Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

the unemployment rate among technology professionals is now half that of the national average

That's because they have changed careers due to the lack of a future demand. Most IT people I know are very driven and do not sit around collecting unemployment while waiting for the jobs to come back.

Re:IT Unemployment Rate = No Demand

[trippytom]

Here is where I take some offense with the article and the comparisons to 2000/2001. I watched the bubble burst here in the states and then in Europe, and let me tell you during the peak of the dotcom bubble like 50% of folks had any real technical chops. The bandwagon jumping was ferocious, even at good companies.

Just putting it out there ...

Re:IT Unemployment Rate = No Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

It's happening again. Just yesterday I was reading about a two week Ruby on Rails crash course for non-programmers. Probably about 10% of those people will end up being good developers while the other 90% will be clogging up interview slots for the next 3-4 years.

Re:IT Unemployment Rate = No Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

link?

I have zero interest in getting back into IT after being out of it for two decades, but I need to slap our current contract IT guys(who were baffled by a simple batch file) with it

(really? how the hell can you be an IT pro and scratch your head over an interactive batch script that in a nutshell runs xcopy)

Well, doh!

[Kaz Kylheku]

The dot com bust hit the IT sectory specifically, and followed a huge bubble in which tons of people were found in unnecessary jobs fueled by the gush of easy start-up money.

How can you even compare.

Depends on the Area

[Jonah Hex]

Welcome to Detroit, or really, most of Michigan. The same tech jobs posted over and over by the same recruiters... sorting through positions that say "Michigan" but are really redirects to another state... More invective and frustration... While there are a few good recruiting firms local the international recruiters spam the boards and inbox. Unfortunately the market doesn't support many of us who have skills and can't move out of state for whatever reason(s). I'm looking at taking a position and moving to the area it's located in since most commutes to the few "tech hubs" we have left are 1 to 2 hour drives, ironically I'm 20 minutes away from downtown Detroit but decent tech jobs there are few and far between. - HEX

Re:Depends on the Area

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, job boards are pretty much just filled with fake jobs (which of course the job boards don't mind since it looks like they are active and keeps people coming back), has anyone ever really got a job off a job board? every time i got a job was through networking a job posting on a company website.

Re:Depends on the Area

[tompaulco]

I have had the same job in Pittsburgh (I don't live there) spammed at me about 6 times, all by Indian recruiting firms. I don't even bother to respond because they won't present me to the client because I am not an Indian on H1b.

Re:Depends on the Area

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, I regularly delete jobs from Artech, eTeam, Enterprise Solutions, and RJT Compuquest. Same job, different agencies, all want to know my Visa status (as opposed to Citizenship status) as part of their initial application process.

On the other hand, Collabera may be slower in their process, but I did get a client interview from them (even though the client didn't give me the job).

Re:Depends on the Area

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, I regularly delete jobs from Artech, eTeam, Enterprise Solutions, and RJT Compuquest. Same job, different agencies, all want to know my Visa status (as opposed to Citizenship status) as part of their initial application process.

On the other hand, Collabera may be slower in their process, but I did get a client interview from them (even though the client didn't give me the job).

I've had more than enough of Apu calling from Artech & e-team, with today's "urgent requirement."

Collabera? When I see something from Collabera, it's usually for an "urgent requirement" for their "premier client," IBM. Thanks, but no thanks.

Over the past few weeks, all Apu seems to be calling about is for contracting positions with the major Indian IT firms. Again, thanks, but no thanks.

Re:Depends on the Area

[Lothsahn]

Jonah,

See my post here: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3384553&cid=42600051

We're looking for people in the local area. No redirects, false postings, etc. Livonia, MI. Not a recruiter--I work at the company and I know we have open positions.

Re:Depends on the Area

[Digital Mage]

I don't know what your situation is but I can tell you Detroit has a huge demand for tech workers. Ford and GM are hiring a lot of tech workers causing a supply shortage of skilled tech workers in the area. I get calls from recruiters all the time looking for people in the area and recruiters are telling me they are having a hard time filling positions. Don't bother with with job boards and instead make sure you have a LinkedIn account visible to recruiters and post your resume to the local hiring firms.

Re:Depends on the Area

[Jonah Hex]

Sent you an email from my jonhexwilson gmail account last night to your yahoo.com address, let me know if you didn't receive it. - HEX

Re:Depends on the Area

[Jonah Hex]

Ford keeps trying to fill the same few positions over and over again for literally years, which means every tech staffing firm out there contacts me about the same Windows admin position. I interviewed for an expert position in a different platform area three years ago (which took them a year to fill) and the same support position was "looking for candidates" then. Is it really a position when it's been continuously open for three years and is a mid-range skill admin position? (I just checked my email and the same position and job description comparing a 2010 email to a 2013)

I have seen a few positions that may be GM but nothing I've seen from any of the local or worldwide recruiters to indicate that either GM or Ford are hiring lots of tech workers. Unless you are looking for work and reading the job descriptions every day like I am perhaps you don't see that all these calls are from different recruiters calling with the same job.

I post on job boards, LinkedIn, and work with local recruiters; while this means I get more spam I also get a bit more exposure. For the record local recruiting firms are how I've gotten most of my contracts over the years, but I don't want to restrict my job search since I have occasionally had a recruiter find me work from my resume on the boards. Thanks for your response but I think the "huge demand" is all smoke and mirrors. - HEX

Re:Depends on the Area

[Digital Mage]

I'll check around with the recruiters I know to see if they have any admin positions they are aware of as well as any internal boards. Sounds like you are doing the right things.

Congratulations are in order

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you President Obama!!

Clinton, Gore, Obama. Seems Democrats have the upper hand in technology deployment and job growth.

Re:Congratulations are in order

[Tablizer]

Yeah, we need another B*sh war stimulus and B*sh financial bubble.

Isn't this to be expected?

[viperidaenz]

The dot-com burst was a tech sector bubble.

The current burst is a finance sector bubble.

How's that finance job market recovery going?

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great. They just announced another round of executive bonuses.

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am pretty sure the Israel can out gun most of their neighbors.

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why do they constantly need to interfere in American politics? Just today Hagel had to be "OKed" by an Israeli senator before he could be confirmed. Also why do American taxpayer have to give them three billion in handouts every year?

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[thammoud]

In the financial software industry. We hire both software developers and financial operational support and have job openings for both. For every 50 support resumes we get, less than a handful of Java developer applies. There is a huge demand for Java developers in Chicago. I would assume the same applies to other parts of the US.

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[viperidaenz]

Perhaps I should move to Chicago. But then I'd be surrounded by Americans...

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the financial software industry. We hire both software developers and financial operational support and have job openings for both. For every 50 support resumes we get, less than a handful of Java developer applies. There is a huge demand for Java developers in Chicago. I would assume the same applies to other parts of the US.

You see the same problem for iOS developers nationwide.

Just look at the job postings for some of these development jobs. Many of these companies are looking for one person to fill at least 2 positions.

Everybody wants a rockstar, even if they don't exist. If the employers can't find someone, it may be the employer's fault.

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[Algae_94]

There are no Israeli Senators List of foreign born senators. In addition, if one was born in Israel, they need to become a US citizen for 9 years to be eligible for election to the Senate.

Of course, I'm probably just feeding an antisemitic troll that has a problem with a Jewish Senator, but I wanted to post the link since I looked it up and it is interesting to see where some Senators were born.

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps I should move to Chicago. But then I'd be surrounded by Americans...

Obviously you've never been to chicago.

Re:Isn't this to be expected?

[jimmyfrank]

I'm in the Midwest also and the demand for java and .net devs is through the roof right now.

Different cause of recession

[Anonymous Coward]

The dot com bubble bursting naturally wiped out a lot of tech jobs. And a lot of jobs that were merely idiots with tech-sounding titles.

This current recession was a bank panic on top of a real estate bubble bursting. Not so many tech jobs at stake to start with. I wonder how many of those "new jobs" are just normal turn over for companies, but being counted as the recovery summer we've been hearing about for 3 years.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

When you say "left school" are you talking about high school?

Important to be flexible

[fermion]

If one is going to work for a lifetime, I think it is important to flexible. This is why I prefer a good general education rather than have a two year degree where they teach you to use MS Office or configure a windows network. At some point that work is going away, and it sucks to have to look for a job that is becoming obsolete, or at least not as desperate for worker as it one was.

On hopes that people have found other jobs rather than being forced to exist on unemployment until someone gives them back what is essentially their old job. That is what recovery is. People finding work and the economy moving forward. I think it would be better if we educated ourselves for a flexible work load rather than a specific and narrow trade. That is why so many PhD students have trouble finding positions.

Prediction: Bye-bye "re-shoring"

[mrheckman]

Employment in high tech is cyclical - boom to bust, followed by boom again. It seems to happen roughly every 10 years (1991, 2001, 2009 come to mind, but there was another boom around 1980). When employment booms, there's a shortage of skilled engineers and programmers, so companies look to off-shore. Meanwhile, the number of CS students in the US skyrockets. Then those students graduate, and not long after, the industry tanks, the job market softens, and there's a local surplus of skilled workers who are suddenly more affordable vis-a-vis off-shore workers. Seeing the surplus of skilled on-shore workers, companies start "re-shoring" -- bringing jobs back to the US. But lots of unemployed engineers and programmers go on to other things and, seeing so many engineers and programmers out of work, CS enrollments plummet. When the next boom hits, there's a shortage of workers again and the cycle continues.

I am about to abandon job search.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am about to abandon job search.

I have an excellent academic profile, I have successfully created my own business, and I cannot get a job because I want to switch to a technology where I don't have 2 years of experience.

I have applied for many graduate jobs as well as junior ones but still nothing.

Well, I don't need the money, so I will be programming some open source which I like...

Re:I am about to abandon job search.

[mrheckman]

I am about to abandon job search.

I have an excellent academic profile, I have successfully created my own business, and I cannot get a job because I want to switch to a technology where I don't have 2 years of experience.

I have applied for many graduate jobs as well as junior ones but still nothing.

Well, I don't need the money, so I will be programming some open source which I like...

But, if you program open source projects for two years, that will give you the resume-worthy experience you need to get a tech job. But, by then, you'll probably have your own tech business and won't need to look for a job anywhere else.

Re:I am about to abandon job search.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am about to abandon job search.

I have an excellent academic profile, I have successfully created my own business, and I cannot get a job because I want to switch to a technology where I don't have 2 years of experience.

I have applied for many graduate jobs as well as junior ones but still nothing.

Well, I don't need the money, so I will be programming some open source which I like...

But, if you program open source projects for two years, that will give you the resume-worthy experience you need to get a tech job. But, by then, you'll probably have your own tech business and won't need to look for a job anywhere else.

I don't like creating tech business any more because I only like the tech part, not the selling and marketing part

And you know: In the beginning everything is about sales and marketing, and almost nothing about tech...

But well, you are right about those 2 years :)

Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because a job is listed doesn't mean it is a real job opening. Look at Dice, Careerbuilder, Monster, Indeed, and SimplyHired reposting and reposting job listings week after week. Either the position was filled and the listing never removed, or the job doesn't exist to begin with and it's just for collecting resumes for the future.

Re:Fake jobs

[halltk1983]

Or they have an unrealistic skill / compensation ratio.

Re:Fake jobs

[tompaulco]

My company has a real job posted, for a mid-level Java developer. We have received one resume, from someone 1,000 miles away who had Java in his experience somewhere, but not recent and it was not the focus of any previous job.
Of course, my company is too cheap to post on any board that is not free, and I don't think mid-level developers cruise craigslist. I sure don't when I am looking.

Re:Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, your company was stupid enough to only use Craiglist for a job announcement? Un - damn - believable!

Re:Fake jobs

[aaarrrgggh]

We have posted 6-figure engineering positions on Craigslist in the past... Better results than Monster...

Re:Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really resume collection. The hiring process of a H-1B is "proving" that there is no American suitable for the position. This is why you see those jobs reposted, or stuff like "Java developer, must need certification, $25,000/year" or "person with TS/SCI clearance and CISSP needed for a security role. Salary is $20/hour". Those are not positions expected to ever be interviewed for. They are to get someone from overseas who is willing to work for dirt cheap, and who has a LOT to lose if fired (as in deportation), so the company ends up with insanely loyal, cheap employees that don't show up on the payroll accounts, and thus are tax breaks.

Re:Fake jobs

[lightknight]

'Tis purposeful. Apparently, a number of companies have found a way to play fast and loose with H1Bs. See, in order to make things legal, they need to post the job publicly, so that the natives have a chance before the foreigners get to apply. Since the companies in question are already using the possibility of a green card as leverage over the foreigner (to decrease their potential salaries / wages), the hiring of the foreigner is much preferred in the company's eyes.

But how do you dissuade, or otherwise disqualify, the natives from applying / getting the job? According to the rules, the salary has to meet certain criteria (somewhere within the average of the industry), so purely low-balling the natives won't work. Instead, these companies realized that they can use the qualifications / criteria for the job itself to get around the requirements: they hand the foreign applicant a disc with proprietary apps (costing, potentially, tends of thousands of dollars to buy, possibly even demo), and tell them to familiarize themselves with the apps. Then when the time comes to apply for the job, they can truthfully say that they have used these special apps before, and thus are more qualified for the job than the native. In other words, it would cost the native tends of thousands of dollars to buy these special apps, ostensibly provided for free to foreigners, in order to gain experience with them, in order to qualify for this job; obviously, a native will not do this, as the job itself is probably not well-paying enough to cover these capital costs.

Let it be known that I have no problems with foreigners competing for native jobs. I do, however, have a problem with uneven playing fields; fighting dirty befouls the entire industry, and lays the foundation for terrible gains. Had I my way, the H1B caps would be abolished, and their wages no different from that of the natives.

Re:Fake jobs

[lightknight]

There is, supposedly, a shortage / gap of mid-level developers.

Re:Fake jobs

[TheGratefulNet]

h1b should be abolished until our unemployment rate is below 5%, which is the number considered to be 'full employment'.

there are too many locals (pick any country, this isn't a US centric thing) that need jobs. its pretty rotton to import people when those who grew up locally, have paid their dues (many times over) and simply want society to give back what it promised, are being stepped over for cheaper and more indentured labor.

I do believing in helping 'the world' but not at the expense of the locals. I feel strongly about that. seeing some guy spend his life here, go thru school here, go to college here, know the culture and the language well and then be disposed of in favor of someone who does not know the culture, the language well or has paid any dues at all to the american society? that's WRONG. its evil, actually. it really is. its cruel, heartless and unkind.

we are our brother's keeper but our brothers are being pushed downward. this is not the kind of society I like to see.

look after your own, first; and then, try to expand outward a bit. to intentionally ignore your own, that's just plain WRONG.

Re:Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Your HR is doing it the hard (and expensive way). Find the candidate you hire. Use his resume to write the job requirements. Post the 'job opening' in Obscure Tec Weekly which has a readership of about 20. After 3 months or whatever you can claim you couldn't find native talent and oh look there's this guy we found over in India who would be prefect can we have the H1B now?

Re:Fake jobs

[tompaulco]

There is, supposedly, a shortage / gap of mid-level developers.
Well, in that case I am willing to take a high level developer and pay them mid level wages.

Re:Fake jobs

[crazyjj]

In the U.S., a lot of jobs are posted with unrealistic qualifications (the "20 years of Java development experience" type shit) so the company can run to the Dept. of Labor and Congress and cry that they need more H1-B visas (i.e., slave labor) because they just "can't find qualified candidates." A lot of jobs are also only posted as a technicality (they already know who they're going to hire, but have to post the job because of law or policy).

So, yeah, I would go as far as to say that they vast majority of advertised jobs are just a cruel mirage.

Re:Fake jobs

[neurovish]

There are real jobs on Craigslist? I think I would immediately be suspicious of any job posting I found there.

Re:Fake jobs

[Gr8Apes]

H1B should be abolished entirely. So should the backdoor L class, or really any of the things listed here. If we have people on unemployment that are available and able to do the jobs, none of these visas should be granted. Granted, the current unemployment system should make hiring out of the unemployed ranks simpler, but if the unemployment office finds any matches, there should be no visa granted.

Re:Fake jobs

[khallow]

They probably hiring in bulk. You can't cherry pick like that, when you're, say, hiring twenty at a time.

Re:Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a programmer in silicon valley - every job (3) I've had in the past 10 years I've gotten off of Craigslist. All starting at 6 figures and all major tech companies The good thing about Craigslist (though this is changing) is that usually you're dealing directly with the company and not some head-hunter job placement mill.

Re:Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

H1B is not the issue.. Outsourcing is!

An engineer in h1b spends close to 90% of the money made in the US - buying cars, renting, traveling. Outsourcing outsources everything outside!

Just my 2 cents..

Re:Fake jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

But not willing to think ahead to grow a junior developer, not willing to pay more in corporate tax rates to train junior developers before they get to the field. Not willing to pay wages commensurate with the cost of becoming a mid level developer and not willing to provide a work environment that doesn't treat IT workers like a commidity.

This mid-level gap is something wholly created by corporations who are so focused on short term gains that they forget short term actions have long term consequences, which is exactly the same reason that the whole world economy collapsed at the same time. Everyone was robbing Peter to pay Paul and now corporations still have a debt to pay. Experience/Education isn't free or cheap, why should you expect workers to be?

Re:Fake jobs

[romons]

+1

Submitted to Barbara Boxer as potential legislation.

Re:Fake jobs

[tompaulco]

But not willing to think ahead to grow a junior developer,
We have several junior developers. My problem right now is that the company would not hire anyone for me a year or two ago when we needed to start grooming somebody. They waited until now, when I need someone to jump in with both feet. Even a seasoned developer will need to time to become familiar with our company and our programs. However, at this point, we don't even have time for that. But at least if we hire somebody now, then in 6 months or a year or whenever the next severe time crunch comes, we will have somebody who knows what they are doing.

Kim Dot-com Bubble?

[gentryx]

Did anyone else read the title and thought "Megaupload's downfall wasn't that bad, wasn't it?" Or did Kim's extensive physique just lose structural integrity?

need more apprenticeships that why PHD's can get

[Joe_Dragon]

need more apprenticeships that why PHD's can get jobs as they have big skills gaps and to much school.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Kjella]

When you say "left school" are you talking about high school?

He's talking about troll school and has been at slashdot ever since...

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[niado]

It's not doing fantastic (5 years in) and I'll be able to retire in a few months if I choose to. I'm 28.

What the hell definition of "fantastic" are you using??

Can't get started

[Bramlet Abercrombie]

I've got A+, Network+ and MCP and it's still not enough to get the first job in IT? What gives?

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

lol certifications ain't worth a piss. i had an MCSE when i was a teen, that shit is a joke. try getting an actual degree instead of some worthless cert that just show you can memorize a bunch of multiple choice questions...

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a BS from SUNY Cum Laude in CS and cant get started? What Gives. Back to mowing lawns !

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, that and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee. You need experience to back it up; if you're replying on just the certs to get a foot in the door, you'd better have some connections wherever you're applying.

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about experience. Look at the job ads.

And it's not about experience in one thing, every ad is an arbitrary list of technologies, and employers insist that you have five years of recent, professional, verifiable experience in each and every technology the employer happens to use.

Do not fall for that "get experience by volunteering" BS. Employers insist on professional experience. Some job ads specifically state they are only interested in your paid experience.

If you makes you feel any better, there are a lot of people with credentials beyond yours that cannot find work in IT. For example, I did not even notice a college degree. An A+, N+, and MCP, are no BFD. Those are not high level certs, and without college, or experience, it's going to be tough to get started.

Good luck.

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

The unfortunate part about that it is even worse than your joke - you need $1.70 for a cup of coffee around here...

Re:Can't get started

[TheGratefulNet]

what worked for me (decades ago) was to go to a co-op school where you spend some of your college time working at a real company. often doing nothing or nothing much (you are a tax wrote-off, mostly; realize that but be ok with it).

but it gets you work experience on your resume! I think that really helped me out.

if you are not yet in school, DO consider one of the co-op schools. I was at northeastern (boston area) and even with zero work experience, they were able to find some company to take you on and give you your first real start.

things may not be the same anymore, though; this was 30 yrs ago, for me. but I can only imagine that things are harder now, if you are young and starting out.

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

This means you aren't looking hard enough. On the east coast I just switched jobs and I was flooded with jobs(Only two years of exp and I had 4 actual offers within a month for Full time work). Even people straight out of school make more than decent salaries.

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I had 0 experience, 1 semester of school, and an RHCT, and that got me a job in Operations for a fortune 50 company. Was a great start, and let me skip the help desk step. Then I had about 4 years experience there, and an RHCE, and got a job as an admin.

Certs aren't worthless, you just have to get the right ones, and keep their value in realistic terms. I didn't get an entry level cert and expect 100k a year, however they're great for a step in the door.

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've got A+, Network+ and MCP and it's still not enough to get the first job in IT? What gives?"
"I have a BS from SUNY Cum Laude in CS and cant get started? What Gives. Back to mowing lawns !"

What gives is this, I have oh a million tied up in equipment that I want to make a network out of, one kid has his own tools and can start right now, the other kid has one of these degree's. I start asking a few questions and quickly learn the kid with NO school has done this many times before, is quite serious and actually asks me what the network is for, the kid with the degree has trouble with my questions, appears visually worried when hearing about the Prostar PBX and doesn't even know, pulling wire, punch downs or what a vault is.

That's what gives.
One of you had the BALLS, and showed concern, and interest to just ask for the job, ala fuck the resume just hire me and lets make some money, I can do this for ya!

But wait there's much much more.
1. Now we have the uncertainty of Obamacare and you are the 50th monkey( one more employee), tough break
2. Now the monetary system itself is about to pop, maybe I can't afford my network to be up right now
3. Now there is spying and snooping, maybe my business doesn't want to operate in that. (Can you fix this problem?)
4. Riding out bad times. (Convince me I NEED you for anything, what money are you going to rake in for me?)
5. Prostar has their OWN certs (do we REALLY need a cert here? or ability to show the ownership, need, and communication)
6. it's tough finding a job - (I have to agree with ya, but even with my sympathy and compassion it doesn't get it off this list)

Other thoughts.
The reason you can't answer the questions is cause you don't think for yourself, or you haven't actually built anything
What would you do if MY network was Your Network? You have to think like that. Ya know? Why is the little red light for the smtp server getting pegged by brasil and china?

If the economy is fucking with me, it hell of concerns you as well, your looking for answers for MY problems when I pay you, if not, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

The other thing that pisses me off, is your little one line half ass broke dick sentence structure made of acronyms. my coffee and HEAD will take two lumps from home depot in the morning--Headlights not head lumps. Yes we want brevity, but type shit out for awhile until you know what the fuck your talking about.

You know there is one last thing I want to know about you.
How do you handle emergency after getting good and drunk.
Are ya still smart enough to carefully stumble over and yank the ethernet cable? OR is it PANIC ZONE and morning hangovers, can I borrow a 5 spot for a breakfast burrito. DO ya pack your own aspirin, and suck it up, work hard/play hard? Or whine like a whiny bitch when you cut your wittle fingers. Boo Hoo

If you can pass all my tests I probably put you on salary (unless you are bidding projects)
  Also, you can sub-contract your work. What the fuck do I care as long as it all works.
The primary work will be your responsibility though. You can sub-contract, but you better not hold up a dollar with your penny bullshit.
When you see a problem, you are going to say something about it, it won't be a surprise to me. Suprise you know that contracter I hired, he fucked up the bla bla and now this is down this morning. -- Might as well re-phrase that, I'll pack my shit right now, I fucked up your trust boss.

  (it's true an act of god can fuck things up and I accept that but deception to the last moment I won't tolerate)

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

Judging from the responses, if you were trying to make a joke, it bombed.

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

if you are not yet in school, DO consider one of the co-op schools. I was at northeastern (boston area) and even with zero work experience, they were able to find some company to take you on and give you your first real start.

things may not be the same anymore, though; this was 30 yrs ago, for me. but I can only imagine that things are harder now, if you are young and starting

I agree with this to a point, the student must also be able to recognize when he is being used to "crawl in with the black widows and asbestes while breathing toxic lead solder and smoke" While part of your job as a tech is occasionally going to involve some solder, lead, and toxic crap, you don't need to be dumb, 16, and thinking damn if I don't do that I won't ever be anyone, when reality is you could possibly screw your life up 20 years down the line with PCB exposure or some other nasty shit you will NEVER be able to track back to your "free school" remember how much you PAY for "free school" that's all I am saying, sure, you can learn this way and be one the best hardened hard core design geek this way. Know prices, know the tech, know what people want.

Re:Can't get started

[Osgeld]

A+ and MCP might get you a 50 cent raise at a mom and pop computer repair shop

if they can afford it

Re:Can't get started

[Osgeld]

yep that right there is why I quit IT 16 years ago, you want to pay me 9 bucks and hour and do that while tolerating your dunk useless ass who is too cheap to buy a fucking spool of cable?

fuck the hell out of you, buy your own god damned breakfast burrito

I am in a better career now, and your are fighting off lawyers for your 4th wife, showing up to work with piss stains on your 3 day old pants, still thinking your jesus

Re:Can't get started

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe its because u got an A+ Network + had my A+ at 16 years old. get more unique and challenging certificates.

Re:Can't get started

[Bramlet Abercrombie]

Well, I'm already 31 so I guess I can just forget about ever getting that first job and the experience needed to continue this path. When everybody who knows how to do these specialized things retires and nobody is there to take their place, I hope everyone remembers how they stopped letting people in on the ground floor. It'll be their own damn fault that high tech society is crumbling around them.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of this was if your really a "techie" you won't have an income problem short of some other restraint (location, family, etc).

Depression

[Anonymous Coward]

I've stopped looking; but I don't know what else to do. I can't get past the idea that everything becomes surveillance in the end. Even the "fun" stuff is just spying on you. I want to unplug, but I don't know how. I think I'm honest-to-God clinically depressed and am torn between seeking help and thinking that any "help" will just drain my bank account and make matters worse.

I think I have enough energy for one more startup; but it's got to be something worthwhile. Frankly, I'm hard pressed to think of anything new the computer can do that would be worthwhile. Everything out there is some stupid game or surveillance app. I'm 44 yo. I've been thinking of just doing min wage work, maybe learning about food from the ground up, and perhaps getting a nice winery job some day. I think it might be better for me on the long run.

Re:Depression

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't give up. Get some help.
I've been out 4 years myself. I've begun to hate the IT industry with a passion.

Re:Depression

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you seek help consider
the updated DSM
the updated obamacare
the updated DHS bullets
the updated IRS bullets
the updated digital medical records
the updated nsa spy data house
government itself is now a terrorist

When seeking help makes you
a terrorist, gun owner (or, about to never own a gun again), with your digital medical diagnosis pinging everything from your bank account to freedom

You said winery.
I'd go for gold, land, horticulture and solar panels

The gold is hard to collect
the land hopefully you already have
the horticulture comes from school, or people who know and help you
the solar panels let you live off grid

You don't need a fucking false science psychiatrist to imprison you in hell on earth

You need fresh AIR, and a nice tug on a nice strain, neighbor chics who check you out when you stumble out your door to water the plants

Fuck depression

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[TheGratefulNet]

I'm over 50 (just barely).

the agism (in the sf bay area) is visible and intense. my healthcare went up A LOT on my 50'th birthday and I have private HI since I'm not employed now and wasn't when I was 50, either.

companies have to pay higher rates for older employees (I'm pretty sure). they also have more legal hurdles to jump thru when they fire you. in general, they don't like older guys. lots of reasons, with very few of them actually good reasons.

fwiw, if you are in the bay area and approach mid 30's, start thinking about an 'exit strategy'. by mid 40's you should have some idea or plan. I did not and I'm paying the price for my lack of forethought (I really didn't believe this, back when I was still young).

maybe other areas of the country are more accepting of us older guys, but the bay area IS NOT! trust me. yes, there are companies that have grey-hairs there but they are usually the minority and very few of them feel totally secure in their jobs, if you ask them and if they answer honestly.

its a shame. some cultures in the world respect and honor age, experience and wisdom. the bay area, fwiw, is NOT one of them ;(

(I wish I could speak one of the asian languages or be able to move there; I am told that the eastern part of the world still DOES honor and respect age and experience.)

Local differences

[Tablizer]

In California the developer job market was really rough after the dot-com crash. For family reasons it was not practical to move out of state. I even started asking for minimum wage, but no takers*. It was brutal. I ran into some sleazebags who wanted me to lie, cheat, and steal for $. Sleazebags sure know how to find the desperate.

Between that and the offshoring trend, I started looking for an entire new field to go into. I considered 3D animated graphics for presentation to judges and juries in court cases, such as car accident simulation. A new trend at the time. Fortunately the Calif IT industry recovered to some degree after waiting out the storm. But it was the worse few years in my entire life. I still have nightmares about that period.

There are no guarantees in life; take nothing for granted.

* Not an intentional quote from Simon & Garfunkel.

Re:Local differences

[TheGratefulNet]

I went for an interview (really well known company, everyone wants to work there, or so they think) and when they told me that the job was paying about half of what I made 10 yrs ago (!!), I did not balk. it would have covered the rent, at least, and employment is honorable even if its way below your last several jobs' rates.

they would have no part of me, though. too old, way too overqualified (they said so) and they didn't want to risk taking me on. I did not (at all!) act above-the-job. I honestly would have been fine working there, even for that rate. maybe it would lead to other things or I could establish myself in that company. but no, they never even called back to give closure. (this company is known to be rude to prospective employees, and people still put up with it, too).

employers, please don't turn down those who are 'overqualified' in a tough market. get a feeling for whether they'll stay or jump; but don't just -assume- they'll jump. those who have been out of work would really appreciate the chance and they'd likely be loyal and glad to have the chance to come aboard. if they're older, they'll likely be more stable, too, and not be a job-hopper. believe me, the job-hopping days ended 10 yrs ago or even more.

the tough part is staying positive when you see the ugliness and greed that companies have, when they know its an employer's market. its soul crushing to see the lack of humanity and lack of compassion. it was a learning experience for me and I'm going to try never to do that to anyone, if I'm on the other side of the interview table.

Re:Local differences

[bloobamator]

The company you describe sounds like Google. I almost got a job there back in 2007. I did the interviews, everything went really well. They told me they were going to make me an offer. I made it all the way to the executive committee, and then, nothing. Not a peep from the HR dept. For me the sound of the financial bubble bursting was the silence of my cell phone, waiting for them to call me and tell me that the position I was being hired for had been cut. When I finally got one of them on the phone, months later, they did not even apologize for failing to get back to me.

Re:Local differences

[CAIMLAS]

I've been in situations like this, though I've gotten the job(s). The employer has a decent position but at below market rates - but with promises of improvement "after 6 months', "when the company is doing better", "before we hire someone else".

Invariably, it's all been lies just to get a cheap employee (even when it's in writing - at will means at will, and they'll change the terms of the agreement out from underneath you).

Older, more experienced workers have the benefit of being able to jump ship to another employer fairly easily if they're currently employed. They've got the established work history; they just need to be employed at the time to jump (demonstrating that someone, somewhere, was willing to take a risk.) This isn't the case for younger workers, who have fewer options due to their lack of experience - so naturally, they're more preferable for the totalitarian/abusive employers.

I'm still fairly young (30), but the last interview I went to I was told, "I really like your resume, but you cost a lot more than we can afford. You obviously have all this experience. Might I recommend you leave off 5 years of experience? You're too intimidating to employers." I've got a job, but if I didn't, the possibility of working there would've been acceptable to me due to various other factors - but I'd have probably been more qualified (on paper) to be my boss than he was, aside from his tenure in the position. If I hadn't been employed, I doubt I'd have been asked in (I did it as a favor).

Re:Local differences

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is a bunch of immature pricks. They probably used all your interview information for their data mining operations.

Re:Local differences

[neurovish]

That is normal. I can't think of any company that has called back and said I didn't get the position.

Clearly

[Anonymous Coward]

President Obama has been doing what he said he would do and he has begun the long process of bringing the USA back to prosperity.

http://wh.gov/E8zG

Re:Clearly

[Skapare]

Yeah, but he's doing it HIS OWN WAY. He's NOT doing it the REPUBLICAN WAY. And that is pissing off most of the Republicans. OTOH, they need that.

Every profession gets a turn to eat Ramen

[Tablizer]

How's that finance job market recovery going?

"Will calculate derivative interest for food"

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

the agism (in the sf bay area) is visible and intense [...] its a shame. some cultures in the world respect and honor age, experience and wisdom. the bay area, fwiw, is NOT one of them ;(

Some cultures care more for communication skills. If you write like that at work, it's not ageism holding you back. At least pretend like your words are worth reading.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[LunaticTippy]

You don't have to speak an asian language to be valuable. If you are interested in it, you can make a good living in Hong Kong or China or India. There are a lot of opportunities for people who understand technology and are native English speakers. You can bridge the gap between customers and engineers who speak limited English. You may not make good bay area wages depending on where you go, but you'll make excellent for local cost of living wages.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to burst your bubble but Asia is not some magical land where everyone will love you just because you are old. If you worked for the same company for 30+ years and were still working there, and you were native then you'd get some respect. Some 50 year old guy who just shows up looking for a job, in a down economy, would not be respected for his age and experience. Try to drop the comic book nostalgia about a culture you don't have any real experience with beyond your own imagination.

and I bet most of it is temporary

[Osgeld]

Thats one of the problems with IT, its a freaking roller coaster, one year your doing good with a big project upgrading the company to the latest and greatest thing. Then another year, often as the big project wraps up, you're out on your ass counting change for gas.

The latest thing always changes, this "hill" is going to the final death of XP, and many people are scrambling to get their decade old systems, software, and data structures up to snuff, once its done they might keep some of the good ones that didnt crack, but most will be back at the bottom of the roller coaster again.

Re:and I bet most of it is temporary

[Billly Gates]

Mod up!

My foelist or not it is exactly what caused the 2001 crash. No most did not work at. coms then. Most simply were Y2K work. When done they were laid off and CIOs who just blew millions had no reason to upgrade now. XP and IE 6 and Office 2k and Java 1.3 and 1.4 and office 2k3 were locked for 10 years. In 2019 the situation will repeat as Win 7 goes eol.

Legal Issues are the likely culprit

[rsborg]

I actually took my hardware with me and gave a demo of it if I was allowed. it never went well, for some reason. I think it put some employers off! they thought 'he's too hardware focused and this is a pure software job'. not realizing that there is over 10k lines of c/c++ code in my embedded project, not to mention the linux host side of things (the ip stack).

I've worked at firms where you can't bring any outside tech/inventions in - doing so puts the company at too much risk. So even in the interview, if you're not focused on solving their problems, hiring managers are not comfortable - they've been schooled by Legal to avoid these situations as bringing you onboard may be a career-limiting move.

Re:Legal Issues are the likely culprit

[TheGratefulNet]

that's probably a valid point.

i've also seen the opposite. one place I was interviewing at, seemed to want to own my technology. we went back and forth many times on the contract and wording and could not agree on what would keep the stuff I 'invented' (hate using that word) mine and not theirs, even before I started the job!

and so, some places may not want you if you have built and own some tech; and on the other side, some places want you so that they can -take- your stuff.

there's all kinds of companies out there. it really does vary; its surprising how much it does vary.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[rsborg]

You don't have to speak an asian language to be valuable. If you are interested in it, you can make a good living in Hong Kong or China or India. There are a lot of opportunities for people who understand technology and are native English speakers. You can bridge the gap between customers and engineers who speak limited English. You may not make good bay area wages depending on where you go, but you'll make excellent for local cost of living wages.

Your advice is great for the 20-30 somethings.

If you're pushing 50, likely you're not going to have that many options to move - you are probably married w/ kids, have too many friends you'd lose, or are to set in your ways to learn a new language and culture without a lot of frustration/loneliness.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[DoofusOfDeath]

The U.S. federal government is pretty good in this regard. I'm sure the people deciding whom to hire have certain assumptions about how technical ability changes with age. But they generally don't think about things like a candidate's health insurance costing more.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm over 50 (just barely).

the agism (in the sf bay area) is visible and intense. my healthcare went up A LOT on my 50'th birthday and I have private HI since I'm not employed now and wasn't when I was 50, either.

companies have to pay higher rates for older employees (I'm pretty sure). they also have more legal hurdles to jump thru when they fire you. in general, they don't like older guys. lots of reasons, with very few of them actually good reasons.

fwiw, if you are in the bay area and approach mid 30's, start thinking about an 'exit strategy'. by mid 40's you should have some idea or plan. I did not and I'm paying the price for my lack of forethought (I really didn't believe this, back when I was still young).

maybe other areas of the country are more accepting of us older guys, but the bay area IS NOT! trust me. yes, there are companies that have grey-hairs there but they are usually the minority and very few of them feel totally secure in their jobs, if you ask them and if they answer honestly.

its a shame. some cultures in the world respect and honor age, experience and wisdom. the bay area, fwiw, is NOT one of them ;(

Do you want to improve your quality of life? I would advise you to leave the Bay Area.
I'm saying this as someone who is 50 & has left "Man Jose."

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

... a lot of frustration/loneliness.

Welcome to /.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[wannabgeek]

I heard Japan does honor and respect age, but it is not true in India. Definitely not in the IT industry (when I say IT, I include software development as well). Every product company publicly talks about how they want more "senior people" in technical ladder, but in reality, very few believe or support much. Managers will always be nudging you to gain more "visibility" and show more contribution. Even if you do the work of 5 people at your work, it will not count. Instead if you just don't fuckup the regular job, but talk bs or write a white paper (that nobody reads), you will be considered a super star. Because you know the managers want "well rounded" people at senior positions.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[Anonymous Coward]

double bubble burst
Try working for the US Government for 50 + years, and still work there, then we'll talk about respect, or lack of
Such a person has a pension being threatened by these foreign banksters in conjunction with an oath breaking senate
Such a person is limited to 3 IFT's a month if they "participate" in the TSP
Such a person is completely powerless to do anything about the unconstitutional crap going on, and has nothing to do with ANY of that crap, but has done outstanding work for the people and yet you likely don't know who they are...they built a lot of things these fucking kids with their computer simulations can't do.

So with 50 years plus good service and the bankster threat, are they about to be tossed under the bus? After all they did it to the MILITARY.

The problem this country has is one of TRUST, and that only get's fixed with the US Constitution as the law of the land.
The fucking oath breaking thugs have to go.

Too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Next dotcom boom is around the corner. Of course, they'll call it something else and make it out to be new and special and unlike anything we've ever seen before. Completely ignoring Zuckerberg's current pump-and-dump scheme and similar idiocy that is textbook what happened during the previous dot com boom.

Re:Too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Next dotcom boom is around the corner. Of course, they'll call it something else and make it out to be new and special and unlike anything we've ever seen before. Completely ignoring Zuckerberg's current pump-and-dump scheme and similar idiocy that is textbook what happened during the previous dot com boom.

"The Textbook"

You are forgetting bubble 2.0

[Casandro]

Although the finance sector bubble may have burst (well for many companies it was a very soft kind of bursting) we now have a new Web 2.0 bubble in which companies without a business model (i.e. Instagram) are suddenly worth _lots_ of money.
So in a few years/months (who knows) this new web 2.0 bubble will burst, and just like we had lots of useless unemployed untalented web designers after that, we'll have lots of useless unemployed app designers then.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[jimmyfrank]

Good thing I'm in the mid west I guess. I'm over 40 and find work easily. I also kept my skills up to date and can do anything the younger devs can do.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[CAIMLAS]

In my experience, the SF Bay Area also has a bit of an IT reputation of people getting a set of skills, becoming a major prat of a primadona, and then sitting on their laurels expecting to be paid $dollars to do just the bare minimum while trumping up their actual accomplishments into epic deeds of old as fodder for their perpetual job applications. It's very "yes, I touched one of those before" friendly and almost openly hostile towards people who know their topics of expertise backwards and forwards: as long as you can talk marketing bullshit, you're good.

I say this having interviewed dozens of people over the past several years, all in the 25-35 age group. I interviewed a couple grey hairs as well, but if you're in this field in a non-managerial role by the time you're 50, you're probably a bit eccentric - as these guys were. (The eccentricity plus the very real generation gap is a big part of why there's such an ageist approach, I think.)

The Bay Area is, ironically, pretty hostile towards life experience in general, I think. As someone who's only 30 myself - married with 3 kids, college degree, a decade experience, etc.) I found people were openly threatened by me after finding things like this out. (No, I'm not from the Bay Area.)

Also, greyhairs with sense tend to leave the Bay Area and/or retire, so that might be another part of it. Other parts of the country are much more accepting of greyhairs, because outside the urban yuppie areas, people have a more evenly aged, if not elderly-weighted population. Many more people who have real life responsibilities (multiple jobs, extended family obligations, children, harder physical living conditions/weather) tend to make 'little' things like keeping up with the hair dye or buying the latest styles somewhat less important.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[sesshomaru]

This is why I've always been very opposed to all the macho "work till you drop" garbage that often accompanies tech jobs. If you give up your entire life to the job, how can you get a business going on the side?

If you can't get a business going on the side, how do you eat when you are too old to be employed by a tech company?

When you are young and single, it doesn't seem like such a big deal. Since you are always at work, you don't have time to spend your money and it just stacks up in your bank account. The minute you get a wife and kid though, expect that money to get spent even if you never see the outside of your cube much for months at a time.

Most of the older techies I know have some sort of business on the side. When they finally get "retired" these businesses help support them in addition to what they managed to save while they had regular employment. Often times these are not hugely lucrative, but a little money coming in can make a huge difference. (Also, it keeps your mind in shape and alert.)

Oh, by the way, it's not 100% necessary to speak an Asian language to move to Asia, all of my friends in Asia speak English with a certain amount of proficiency, and they are always at me to move over there to go into business with them. (That was the plan before I got ensnared by a woman, who would never even consider leaving the United States for Asia even if we were starving in the gutter. C'est la vie.)

Still, with the Net I get part time work from my friends in Asia now and then, mostly looking over documents to fix the English grammar and idioms.

Unusual circumstances

[mercinary123]

I did everything "wrong" with my resume. I must have read about 100 different resume "guides" of what not do to. My resume had four different things in it of "what not to do." The sad thing was, my interviewer told me they had been looking for over a year and had a stack of resumes. Mine stood out and I keyworded it. I made a 2 column resume and used a template I found. The left side column was a small column with keywords (VMWare, Security+, Windows Server) and then the right was all of the details. Mine was also in color. The key was, it could be printed in grey scale and legible. I found one other resume in the stack of about 200 that was identical in format to mine. The only difference was my coloring. Even in grey scale mine stood out next to his and no one was the wiser it was the same tempalte. My other problem was I sent the resume the first time to the HR person with cover letter but sent it in a DOCX format. The problem? They only had Office 2000! 2000! I didn't hear anything back so I followed up a few days later with the same resume but in PDF format also. I got a phone call the next evening to come in for an interview. They couldn't open my original resume. After I got hired the interviewer, now boss, wanted me to review the resumes and see if there was anyone else we would like to have. I scanned all of them and the sad things was they were all the same resume template. Nothing stood out. You had some guys with 3 years of work experience and 3 pages. Another guy had a master's degree in Computer Science, multiple certifications. He way surpassed me for skills and qualifications but he could not write. The other kicker for this job? It was listed as a System Administrator job. It turned out I would be the CIO and the only IT guy on staff. Starting salary they wanted to pay, $23,000/year which is laughable. They conceded that they would pay me quite a bit more and although I was on the low side of the averages, I did get a $5,000 raise this past year. If I can average around that every year I'll be right on track to be near the average in a few years.

What "overqualified" really means..

[faedle]

It has been my observation that "overqualified" means something quite specific.

"Overqualified" means that they know the working conditions are poor, and that you have enough experience to pretty much find another job the minute they start pushing the boundaries of employment to "unreasonable" limits (and they are expecting to). "Overqualified" means you won't put up with a lot of 60-hour work weeks salaried without overtime, you'll actually expect to be able to take sick leave and vacation time (and will complain loudly if you can't), and the ultimate corporate sin -- you may in fact know more than the boss does.

Somebody who's 22 and fresh out of college does not have experience on their side. They don't know that employees have rights, and additionally they don't have the pressures of a potential spouse demanding time and energy (not to mention kids).

They're right about assuming you will jump. Once they put the screws to you, you will, whereas they know they can treat a kid (or an H1B) like absolute shit.

Re:"techies" unemployed? Maybe those over 50...

[LunaticTippy]

I think it is really good for a late career change. The kids are grown, it's easy to stay in touch with friends, and it's good to get out of your rut. I'm going to seriously consider it if I find myself out of work for a long stretch. I'm in my 40s and wary of my future employability, and the prospect of broadening my horizons is appealing. I'm also interested in retiring abroad where the cost of living is low, this might be a good way to explore that before retirement.

Not a real job, just contract work

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not been able to find a real job, i.e. one that pays benefits. I've only been able to find a contract job (paid on a 1099), zero benefits. The company I work for (a very large multinational bank), dumped almost all of their internal IT and outsourced everything to contractors. Everywhere I go around here is filled with contractor after contractor. I long for the days of paid vacations, sick time, medical care, dental care, vision, 401k, and profit sharing.

are you real

[Anonymous Coward]

Watching as an outsider (I live in Europe), I find it interesting that you look at your slave situation as something that everyone should relish and bash the others who boneheadedly insist on having better work conditions. Has the worker brainwashing in America really gotten to this level, where people willingly give up every ounce of their awake time away from family just to be able to live another day while at the same time praising the collusion in the marketplace as the best thing in the world ?

Unemployed techie and looking for another career

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't had a "real" job in over 4 years but I haven't quite admitted that I'm retired from coding/system admin and the techie world in general. I'm 60 and have been coding since 1968. I codded my way through BAL, COBOL, Fortran, C, C++ and Java. I was coding when most of the potential hiring managers I get interviews with were still in diapers or weren't even born. Yet when I get interviews (which isn't very often) the little shits have the balls to tell me to my face that I don't have the right experience. Yeah, I don't have a game console. I could sue the hell out of the bastards for age discrimination (and I'd secretly love to) but where would that get me. Most of my friends are in the same boat - 50 - 70 year old (ex DEC, HP, SUN, IBM ...) "forcibly retired" coders trying to figure out what the next step is. So whenever they say there is a shortage of techies I can seriously answer bullshit. When I interviewed with ^R*t$, for example, the building was full of east Asians and a few Americans, all under the age of 40. Several of my friends have interviewed there but none of us had the right experience.

The bottom line is that corporate greed is going to send the US dominance in technology down the tubes if it hasn't already. Me? I'm trying to sell my services as a painter. At least until I can collect Social Security.

STEM job markets not recovered since H-1B

[NickGnome]

STEM job markets recovering hardly at all since advent of H-1B
...

"As of the end of Q4 of 2012, the unemployment rate for [computer science and mathematical] professionals was 3.3%, holding steady from Q3..."

...compared with 1.8% in 1983, 1.5% in 1990, 2.7% in 1991, 2.6% in 1992, 2.7% in 1993, 2% in 1994, 1.8% in 1995, 1.3% in 1996, 1.1% in 1997, 1.2% in 1998, 1.8% in 1999, 2.2% in 2000, 3.6% in 2001, 4.9% in 2002, 5.5% in 2003, 4.2% in 2004, 2.9% in 2005, 2.4% in 2006, 2.1% in 2007, 2.6% in 2008, 5.2% in 2009, 4.1% in 2011, and 3.6% for 2012.

So, it's between 2 and 3 times the unemployment rates for these occupations during times of full employment.

"The unemployment rate for DBAs is 1.5%, lowest among all tech-job categories..."

...compared with 3% in 2000, 2.6% in 2001, 2.9% in 2002, 6.6% in 2003, 2% in 2004, 4.4% in 2005, 0.4% in 2006...

"For software developers, a relatively new category in this survey, the rate is 2.9%..."

...compared with 4.6% in 2010, and 3.6% in 2011

and, for software engineers, 1.7% in 2000, 4.2% in 2001, 4.7% in 2002, 5.2% in 2003, 3.3% in 2004, 2.4% in 2005, 2.1% in 2006.

"followed by computer systems analysts at 3.3%..."

...compared with 1.9% in 1983, 1.5% in 1990, 2.6% in 1991, 2.7% in 1992, 3.1% in 1993, 1.8% in 1994, 1.9% in 1995, 1.3% in 1996, 1.1% in 1997, 1.3% in 1998, 1.7% in 1999, 2.3% in 2000, 2.8% in 2001, 4.4% in 2002, 5.2% in 2003, 3.9% in 2004, 3.1% in 2005, 2.7% in 2006.

"Web [weavers, another relatively new category for this survey] (3.5%)..."

...compared with 5.1% in 2010, 4.8% in 2011Q1, 5.6% in 2011Q2, 3.6% in 2011Q3, 4.7% in 2011Q4, 5.9% for all of 2011, 3% in 2012Q1, 4.3% in 2012Q2, 3.5% in 2012Q3, 4.2% in 2012Q4...

"Network and systems admins...4.3%..."

...compared with 1.3% in 2000, 2.1% in 2001, 6% in 2002, 5.3% in 2003, 3.4% in 2004, 3.9% in 2005, 2.5% in 2006...

pointy-haired "computer and information systems managers at 4.3%..."

...compared with 1.6% in 2000, 3.3% in 2001, 5.6% in 2002, 5% in 2003, 4% in 2004, 2.5% in 2005, 2.1% in 2006, 1.3% in 2007, 2.1% in 2008, 4.2% in 2009, 1.6% in 2010...

"programmers have an unemployment rate of 4.6%..."

...compared with 3.1% in 1983, 3% in 1990, 3.5% in 1991, 3.1% in 1992, 2.7% in 1993, 2.1% in 1994, 1.8% in 1995, 1.6% in 1996, 1.6% in 1997, 1.4% in 1998, 2.3% in 1999, 2% in 2000, 4% in 2001, 6.1% in 2002, 6.4% in 2003, 5.8% in 2004, 2.3% in 2005, 2.4% in 2006...

"among computer support specialists, the rate is now 4.9%..."

...compared with 3.4% in 2000, 4.2% in 2001, 5.4% in 2002, 5.4% in 2003, 4.6% in 2004, 3.4% in 2005 and 2006...

and, for computer hardware engineers (which are not included in the aggregate figures for computer science and mathematical occupations) 1.8% in 2000, 2.9% in 2001, 6.5% in 2002, 7% in 2003, 2.1% in 2004, 1.4% in 2005, 1.5% in 2006, 9.3% in 2007Q1, 1.5% in 2007Q4, 2.5% for all of 2007, 1.5% for 2008, 13.9% for 2009Q1, 0.2% for 2009Q2, 1.9% for 2009Q3, 4.6% for 2009Q4, and 5.2% for all of 2009, 14.3% for 2010Q1, 5% for 2010Q2, 2.8% for 2011Q1, 2.2% for 2011Q2, 1.9% for 2011Q3, 2.2% for 2011Q4, 2.3% for 2011 over all, 4.4% for 2012Q1, 0.5% for 2012Q2, 2.8% for 2012Q4 and 1.9% for 2012 over all... which nicely shows the volatility of this data-set.

Read the BLS disclaimer, again, and pass it along:
"Typically, we will not publish percents or medians for occupations or industries with a base of less than 50,000 for annual averages and 75,000 for quarterly averages. However, estimates based on such small denominators may appear in these unpublished tables. (For example, you might check the labor force level to see if it meets these criteria before using the unemployment rate. The labor force -- the sum of the employed and experienced unemployed in an occupation or industry -- is the denominator of the unemployment rate calculation [which means that it neglects those involuntarily out of field and those not currently --