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The Atlantic's Scientology Advertorial

magic maverick writes "The Atlantic recently ran an 'advertorial' for the 'Church of Scientology'. During this time, they filtered comments and removed negative comments. While they have since apologized, incisive.nu has an interesting run down of what they did wrong, from both a moral and business perspective." It turns out these sponsored stories are commonplace, and a serious source of revenue: "Native ads are critical to The Atlantic’s livelihood. They are one element of digital advertising revenue, which in 2012 accounted for a striking 59 percent of the brand’s overall advertising revenue haul. Unclear just how much of the digital advertising revenue stems from sponsor content. We’re working on that."

51 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by crazyjj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The only question here is "Which one is the dog?"

    Is it the Church of Scientology--whose batshit-crazy cult bullshit, strongarm tactics, litigious bullying, etc. are quite well-known by now? Is it these poor souls, who have fallen so far out of favor in recent years that they're losing members even in their traditional gullible himbo/bimbo bastion of Hollywood?

    Or is it the Atlantic, who gave up any pretense of integrity long ago, and whore themselves out like a $5 hooker to any advertiser still dumb enough to think that anyone under the age of ancient still reads The Atlantic? Is it these poor souls, who still bother to publish a magazine that hasn't been relevant since The Great War?

    I think a better analogy might be two dying dogs, lying down together in a last feeble attempt to fend off the cold.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Poor souls? At least a prostitute provides a valuable service, unlike that cult.

    2. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think a better analogy might be two dying dogs, lying down together in a last feeble attempt to fend off the cold.

      Hey, they're both just chasing the Almighty Buck. You should show a little patriotic respect.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Nemyst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not a good analogy, because one may feel pity for two dying dogs.

    4. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by tripleevenfall · · Score: 4, Funny

      Excuse me sir, We at the CoS have trademarked the term "cult" and your use of it is forbidden by copyright. You'll be hearing from our legal team.

    5. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, they've managed to demonstrate that Tom Cruise is an insufferable idiot.

      That counts for something.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by tripleevenfall · · Score: 2

      they also gave us Battlefield Earth, which is one of the most gloriously bad, campy, unintentionally funny films ever made.

    7. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by cfulton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When was it that America tried to enforce justice?
      Starting with slavery and moving on to the railroad monopolies, tammany hall, the Chicago political machine, union busting in the 1930's, the company towns of the coal mines, separate but equal and on and on and on. We do try in fits and starts to fix these things, but always the rich and privileged find ways to give themselves privileges and immunity that the average Joe is not entitled to. It is not just American history but world history that teaches us this. So, maybe we should stop being sad about a time that didn't exist and do something about it. Whether we vote with our money or in the ballot box or through protest it is up to us to change things and looking back on a better time that did not really exist will not get it done.

      --
      No sigs in BETA. Beta SUCKS.
    8. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Informative

      Did 'they' do that? Hubbard had written that bit of fiction before he moved onto his really lucrative fiction.

      Seriously, would you trust a religion started by a science fiction writer who said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."?

      Really? Aliens? That can only be detected with your voodoo device? Is that the best he could come up with?

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    9. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not going to support people who, as part of their personal lie, take action and make up lies that harm others. I don't care how fucking good his movie may, or may not, be.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really? Aliens? That can only be detected with your voodoo device? Is that the best he could come up with?

      That it worked so well and suckered so many ... that may have been his point.

    11. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's nothing dishonest or dishonorable about being a hooker. And prostitution should not be disreputable.

      I cannot say the same for Scientology.

    12. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He's a good actor.

      He's a middling actor at best, and lately has been stuck in the same tired re-hash of his hero fantasy.

      Watch his movies if you like them, stop giving a shit about his personal life.

      I'm sorry, but having seen him jumping on Oprah's sofa, and talking about how modern medical science is wrong about anti-depressants and the like ... he's a crackpot idiot.

      You want to make extraordinary claims? Back 'em up or STFU. He sure as heck can't back them up.

      I don't give a shit what he does in his personal life ... but I'm sure as hell not going to watch his movies and give the impression he deserves more of a public forum.

      By all means, feel free to watch what he's making if you're into that -- but to me he's moved into the realm of actors I dislike and won't watch his stuff.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    13. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Admiral+Valdemar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with that is, somewhere, you are supporting someone of equal or greater drain on society. It's hard to be fully ethical about things 100% of the time, so while not supporting a film actor is one thing, you could be supporting Big Oil or an eeevil tech firm doing far worse. That said, the sooner this cult dies, the better.

    14. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by whitroth · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you think that was funny - I've never seen it - you should read the book.

      As a lifelong SF fan, let me tell you what it was: a pulp writer's parody? homage? to every single pulp magazine genre that was extant in the late forties and early fifties, when Hubbard was writing. The section of Air Adventures, Detective Stories, Jungle Adventure Stories. Seagoing Adventure, SF, and on, and on. They were perfect... hackneyed pulp writing.

      And btw, to Battlefield Earth was published about 4 years before he died. Dianetics, his first foray, is from the late forties, while Dianetics is from the fifties; by the seventies, he was already calling it a "church", and spent something like the last 10 years of his life on his yacht, wanted by the authorities in the UK for tax evasion, as they didn't consider The Church of Scienterifficology a church or religion.

      What "really lucrative fiction" were you referring to, followuper?

              mark

    15. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Plan 9 From Outer Space and This Island Earth are gloriously bad, campy and unintentionally funny films. Battlefield Earth was pretty much unwatchable. It was the film equivalent of a guy so bad you wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. It's so awful it isn't even worthy of MST3K treatment.

      I remember my wife and I rented it, and while I knew perfectly well who Hubbard was, was willing to view the movie on its own merits. After about 20 minutes, we gladly turned it off. A few years later it was on cable so I decided to give it another go. After the first scene with Forest Whitaker and John Travolta I changed the channel.

      The Human Centipede 2 is a work of art compared to Battlefield Earth.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    16. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by xevioso · · Score: 2

      Now now, it's not that bad. I rewatched it again recently, or at least part of it. While horrible, it's not insufferable.

      For me the one thing that did repeatedly get on my nerves were the skewed camera angles. Every single frame is skewed 45 degrees in one way or the other.

    17. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Funny

      Does he good? Or does he evil? It matters not you say. Watch him anyway you say.

      Burma Shave? :-P

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    18. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Hatta · · Score: 4, Informative

      talking about how modern medical science is wrong about anti-depressants and the like

      A broken clock is right twice a day, and crazy ass Tom Cruise is right about this too. A 2008 meta analysis of all studies, published and unpublished, on SSRI antidepressants found that the effects are clinically insignificant in the great majority of patients. Only those ranked as very severely depressed experience any significant benefit over placebo.

      It's been 6 years since that study, and none have overturned its conclusions. Yet SSRIs are prescribed to the moderately depressed every day. I've asked psychiatrists how they can justify this in light of the data, they've responded with their own confirmation biases. I don't see any way to interpret this but to conclude that psychiatry for depression is almost entirely a scam.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    19. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by PhxBlue · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pfft. If you were really with the CoS, you'd have made Slashdot remove the post.

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
    20. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hubbard had written that bit of fiction before he moved onto his really lucrative fiction.

      Actually Battlefield Earth was published in 1982, while Scientology was started in 1952 or 1953, depending on your definition of "started." Your other points, however, are quite accurate.

    21. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      I'm not going to support people who, as part of their personal li[f]e, take action and make up lies that harm others.

      Has Tom Cruise done that himself, though? Or is he just as deluded as the other poor fools who've been suckered into Scientology - moreso, in his case perhaps, since it would be even more in Scientology's interests to continue buffing his ego, given the considerable interest his name can generate. They gave him a freakin' medal, for Xenu's sake. I wouldn't be surprised if Cruise had been told and genuinely believed that all of the negative press about Scientology was part of an establishment (or alien) conspiracy.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    22. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 2

      C'mon, guy-tards. Let's try to keep it civil here. Thanks.

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    23. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Bardez · · Score: 2

      It's so awful it isn't even worthy of MST3K treatment.

      How about a RiffTrax? They're the same MST3K guys, BTW.

      --
      Perception is the thin dividing line between reality and fiction.
    24. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 4, Informative

      Having suffered from moderate dysthymia for the past 20 years with bouts of severe depression, I can safely state three things:

      1. Psychologist == psychotherapist. I saw my psychologist 1 hour a week for about 5 years straight when I needed the help.

      2. Psychiatrist == pharmacologist. I see my psychologist for 30 minutes every six to twelve months to get a prescription refill. The demand on psychiatrists is high, because very few people are crazy enough to get a PhD and the turn around and get an MD. 12-16 years of school tends to make them only slightly less insane than their patients.

      3. Antidepressants allow me to function in society. My condition is an exception, however, because it actually is a chemical imbalance. Without medication I stop going to work/school, then stop spending time with friends, then stop talking to people in any way, then stop cleaning the house, then stop bathing, then stop eating.

      Fuck Tom Cruise and fuck the Church of Scientology.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    25. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by iluvcapra · · Score: 2

      In light of all of this, it's hard to see how psychiatry for depression is anything but a scam.

      Your argument is that psychiatry is affirmative fraud, that psychiatrists know that their drugs don't work, and that this information is suppressed for the sake of profits -- and you base this all off of one paper, a paper that says nothing about fraud, profits, or suppressed knowledge. Find the paper that proves psychiatrists systematically misreport outcomes, or that they believe drugs don't work, or that they routinely lie in order to sell patients on drugs and services. This is the evidence required to prove a "scam." All you've got now is a reason to go back and check the original studies.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    26. Re:If you sleep with a dog, you get fleas by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2

      See, and this is what people forget. Just because these meds are over-prescribed doesn't mean that they aren't effective, nor that there aren't many people who genuinely benefit from them. I'm glad to hear your life has been improved. I know a bit about depression, but I can't imagine what "severe" depression must be like. Don't let the cynics get to you.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  2. Principals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    High Brow Magazine abandons principals in pursuit of the almighty dollar, news at 11.

  3. Slashvertisement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This article is something, coming from a tech site that has blatantly posted advertisements disguised as stories, intentionally or not.

    The only reason the atlantic caught shit was that it was that CoS is easy an hated target, product placement articles are nothing new or interesting.

    1. Re:Slashvertisement by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Funny

      You don't see the difference between product placement and a cult using a newspaper to ruin more lives?

      When does slashdot run ads for crack cocaine? That would be similar to what we are talking about here.

      Well, Slashdot is always pushing bitcoin. If that won't ruin your life, nothing will.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:Slashvertisement by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Matters of degree are a big deal though.

      The question is where to draw that line, at any shilling or for bad enough product. Slashdot seems to have chosen the latter, the Atlantic seems to want to get rid of the line altogether.

    3. Re:Slashvertisement by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 4, Funny

      When does slashdot run ads for crack cocaine?

      My god man - how can you say that so callously? I just ordered my twenty-seventh Raspberry Pi board - this month!

      Insensitive clod.

    4. Re:Slashvertisement by Hatta · · Score: 2

      the Atlantic seems to want to get rid of the line altogether.

      An ad that looks just like reporting is in reality just shitty reporting. If the Atlantic wants to publish shitty reporting, their readers will move elsewhere. Problem solved.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:Slashvertisement by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      I see small comment numbers on "tech" and large comment numbers on "politics". If it sounds like something you'd see screencasted on Hak5 or audio podcasted on hacker public radio theres like 50 comments, if it sounds like something you'd see on fox news or dr phil its got about 200 comments. If its the kind of thing the lamestream media would interrupt dancing with the stars or a football game to report live, you'll get about 500 comments.

      Well, tech generally falls into one of two categories - "cool" and "uncool".

      Political stories are, by their very nature, very polarized. This site attracts people from a variety of political viewpoints - libertarian, anarchists, socialist, communist, capitalist, free market, etc. It's natural they all have conflicting viewpoints because that's what differentiates one political view from another.

      And then there's politics in tech as well - Google, Apple, Microsoft - they all have their fair share of haters, fanboys, and will always attract a bunch of trolls to bait both sides.

      Heck, one common irony I see is how everyone complains when "non tech people" refuse to "learn about the technology they use" and ask others to help fix it (usually the /. poster about helping friends and family). On the other hand, the same tired old arguments get brought up over and over again because said posters fail to actually learn stuff that's not tech related (e.g., IP law is a good one - how many times do people have to confuse trademarks, patents (design and utility), and copyright?), or repeat the same old crap that's been debunked for years (e.g., "Will never buy from iTunes - Amazon only because it's DRM free" despite iTunes being DRM-free for many years now as well).

      Heck, I'm sure we can compare the /. popultaion with the general population and similarities - mechanics complaining about "walled gardens" of modern cars, mechanics complaining about drivers not knowing anything about their cars, etc.

    6. Re:Slashvertisement by sjames · · Score: 2

      The difference is the paid nature of the content. As far as I know, the slashvertisements are not paid ads disguised as stories and the comments are not covertly censored to eliminate criticism and create the illusion of grass roots support..

    7. Re:Slashvertisement by Hentes · · Score: 3, Funny

      When does slashdot run ads for crack cocaine?

      There's a weed story every other week.

  4. The Onion's take on it by John3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Onion skewered the "sponsored content" concept nicely yesterday. Even sponsored content needs to meet editorial standards, maybe even more so since you are accepting compensation for allowing them to use your brand name to promote theirs.

    --
    "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
    1. Re:The Onion's take on it by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      The Onion is the new 'wikileaks'. That was actually stolen minutes from a CIA conference.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  5. The Taliban and Cthulhu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This was recently mocked by both the Onion and Boing Boing. I think this is one of the first times that I'm less afraid of Cthulhu than the alternative. Actually, Cthulhu looks pretty damn reasonable when he wears a suit and a tie.

  6. "Serious Source of Revenue" by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You know what the most serious source of revenue for a publication is? Readership.

    Piss off your readers, they'll go somewhere else for news.

    If your readers go somewhere else, so will your advertisers.

    If The Atlantic takes a major fiscal hit over this (which I certainly hope they do), they've got no one to blame but themselves.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    1. Re:"Serious Source of Revenue" by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      You know what the most serious source of revenue for a publication is? Readership.

      The heart of the problem is that readership is no longer an adequate source of revenue. The Atlantic's actions should be seen as an act of desperation, not a sell-out.

      Readership is still the key determining factor in the survivability of a publication, because advertisers base their decisions regarding where to place their adverts based on readership (or hits, or visits, or whatever term for "people who see this material" you want to use). No readers (site visitors) == no advertisements == no money.

      We are all losers if it becomes unfeasible to perform the quality of journalism that the Atlantic built its reputation on.

      I take it you don't watch any of the 24-hour-cycle media networks, do you? Low quality journalism coupled with near-constant advertisement is pretty much the name of the game these days, and you're right - human social progression loses as a result.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  7. Don't be so quick dismiss a Fox News article by roccomaglio · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Our media is constantly showing their biases. I would not be surprised if someone at the Atlantic was a devote Scientologist. Just this week CBS told CNET that they could not give a best in show to Dish's SlingBox. It is up to you the consumer of media to decide what is accurate or not. Fox News sometimes reports on things that other media chooses not to cover. They also choose to give a voice to some people that other media chooses to ignore. I read a large variety of sources and then use my own judgement as to what is believable or not.

    1. Re:Don't be so quick dismiss a Fox News article by admdrew · · Score: 2

      I think this CNET situation shows a significant issue with the more 'popular' journalism - corporate bias. While we can all understand CBS's motivations, I feel that there needs to be far more journalistic integrity in situations like these; CNET's job was to provide awards based on merit, independent from what their parent company may be involved in (although, like you said, some of their reporting is questionable at best, even when parent company conflict of interest isn't involved).

      So, basically, fuck you CBS - they should know better than most companies what journalistic integrity is, and what it means to staunchly follow it. Ultimately, this is really no different from all of the other major news outlets, which are for-profit and are organized like other standard corporations (highly-paid executive staff, ultimate motivation is the company's fiscal bottom line).

    2. Re:Don't be so quick dismiss a Fox News article by guttentag · · Score: 2

      Our media is constantly showing their biases.

      Every person has his own biases. A journalist's job is to minimize those biases as much as possible to present a fair and balanced perspective. Some groups of journalists (The New York Times, for example) are better at this than others (The Washington Times).

      That being said, in every media organization there is a struggle between the people who produce the content (the editor and his team of editors and reporters) and the people who find ways to pay salaries and keep the lights on (the publisher and his team of accountants and salespeople). If the publisher had his way, they'd be selling "The Atlantic: The Breakfast Cereal" in every supermarket and prostituting the brand to push anything people are willing to pay them to push. If the editor had his way, there would be no ads, twice as much space for stories and three times as many reporters on staff. Ultimately they have to find a balance.

      I've watched this play out at a major newspaper. I remember the publisher pleasantly announcing that the newspaper's home page would be replaced by a "portal" of advertising, with a small box readers could click on if they wanted to read news (a mutiny resulted and he left a few months later). And I remember hearing the top editor screaming "What the fuck is a pop-up ad doing on my home page?!" so loud we could hear it across the newsroom even though his door was closed (years later, they had to give in and allow pop-ups).

      In the last 10-15 years, that balance has been shifting in favor of the publishers, because they're under pressure to find new sources of revenue to keep the lights on and pay everyone's salaries. Occasionally this results in the editor having to beat his head against the negotiating table because his choices are (a) allow sponsored content that is bullshit designed to look like facts written by his team, and hope it's a temporary band-aid as opposed to the "new normal," or (b) go out to the newsroom and tell his team they're out of a job.

      "Advertorials" and "sponsored content" that masquerade as real news stories are a line that should not be crossed. There are no standards that make them OK. If your readers can't trust what you publish, you're done.

  8. This happens all the time. by Dyinobal · · Score: 2

    This happens all the time, why do you think we don't have any serious discussion about money in politics. Because the media gets paid because of all the money in politics via ad time etc. Why would the media want to have a discussion about money in politics? They profit from it like crazy.

  9. The Atlantic isn't alone by Loosifur · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Foreign Policy, which was bought by the Washington Post a few years ago, started running these type of things around the time (shortly before or after, don't recall) of the change in ownership. Now that I think about it, it was probably shortly after, because the Post itself began running a bunch of "Chinawatch" segments on its site, which were basically advertorials from China Daily, one of China's state-run newspapers. At any rate, around the time I noticed that FP started to be over half full of ads by volume, and that easily 3/4 of that was some marketing drivel about how awesome China is, or how Dubai is doing such wonderful things in the world, is when I dropped my subscription. I'm not paying for a bimonthly travel brochure, and I'm sure as hell not reading a magazine about international relations that sells ad space to propagandists.

    --
    This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
  10. Scientology is fading by anagama · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I cam across this very long, very interesting story about Scientology last night which details how with diminishing membership, it is trying to squeeze the very last dime out of those remaining and accelerating its die-off.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexklein/is-scientology-self-destructing

    But inside the church, the Ideal Orgs are sparking insurrection. Across the country, donors and high-ranking executives say that the aggressive fundraising and construction scheme is used to enrich the central church at the expense of the rank and file, helping to grow the Scientology war chest to over a billion dollars. Two former members, Mike Rinder and Mark Elliott, went so far as to call the project a "real estate scam." To some of these defectors, the structures are metaphors for the religion itself: garish on the outside, empty on the inside. The irony is that the very expansion that Scientology lauds as its renaissance is actually a symbol of internal dissent and decline.

    ***

      And the ranks of the faithful are dropping. In 2008, there were 25,000 self-identifying American Scientologists, down by over a half from 55,000 in 2001, according to the American Religious Identification Survey. (Over the same time period, the number of Wiccans more than doubled from 134,000 to 342,000.) The 2011 British census showed a total of 2,418 Scientologists across England and Wales; about 73 times as many Brits identified themselves as "Jedi."

    --
    What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    1. Re:Scientology is fading by briancox2 · · Score: 2

      I LOVE that story. I'd already read it before coming on here. Both of these stories are the current feature on Mark Rathbun's WordPress site right now. The real question of importance to me (because I am a former member of the Co$ and currently practicing outside of the corrupt organization) is WHY did the Co$ feel a need to justify spending about a billion dollars on these buildings when they're empty. And the answer that question is reported on AT LENGTH in Alex Klein's article. As a disillusioned (and now Independent) Scientologist I am very happy to see that someone is telling our story. Not a hate filled rant from a wild-eyed anti-religious zealot. But a very REAL story of the continuing struggle of the Scientologists who can see what's going on ... against the corrupt and manipulative management that (until the internet) was able to silence all former member/critics.

      --
      We should learn what we need to know about issues, before we decide what we need to feel about them.
  11. Re:How is Scientology worse than any other religio by seebs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a really stupid rhetorical question, but it's a pretty good actual question. In case someone comes along who is interested in answers:

    * Coercing members to have abortions so they won't waste money raising kids; instead, the money can go to the organization.
    * Complete ban on mental health care.
    * Major and sustained efforts to undermine health care for other people too, as part of their general war on anything related to psychiatry.
    * Systematic destruction of family relationships and friendships which in any way endanger someone's loyalty to the organization.
    * Systematic attacks on critics, including anyone who says anything just a bit negative.
    * Various lawsuits, legal hassles, and so on; they use these to get things like preferential tax treatment (they get better tax breaks than any religion does).
    * According to their founder, they are in fact not a religion at all, and are in no way religious; they adopted the "religion" thing only for legal benefits, while not actually being a religious organization in any way.
    * Paulette Cooper and "operation Freakout", in which they forged bomb threats from someone who'd said things they didn't like.
    * Lisa McPherson, who was tied to a bed and denied any sort of care until she was nearly-dead, then dropped off at a hospital (where she died because she was already too far gone), on the grounds that she had been thinking about seeking medical care. Anything where your autopsy reveals "cockroach feeding sites" should not be considered a viable medical treatment.

    Christians can be really annoying (trust me on this; I am one, I should know), but the vast, vast, majority of them do not have a policy that says that they are obliged to take any and all possible measures to prevent me from disagreeing with them or telling other people I think they're wrong. Yes, some of the specific organizations have, over the last couple thousand years, gotten way out of line. But it's never been the official policy of the entire thing. The "Fair Game" policy is a whole new category compared to the policies that religions generally have.

    In short, they are on the lunatic fringe compared even to the lunatic fringes of the world's religions. (And I don't say "any other religion" because L. Ron Hubbard said Scientology was not a religion, and he's presumably authoritative.)

    When the Catholic Church tells its members to absolutely cut off all communciation with anyone who badmouths them, at all, ever, then we can talk about how Scientology is in any way similar to religions. Without that, you're just demonstrating severe ignorance of what it is that people dislike about Scientology.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  12. Re:I don't see what's new here... by chrismcb · · Score: 2

    Is the Atlantic held to a higher standard for whatever reason?

    Yes.
    There are two differences. One is that the ad was made to look like a normal, unbiased news article. But at the same time, someone was removing critical comments. The latter is bad, the former is pretty much unforgivable for a news site.

  13. Re:How is Scientology worse than any other religio by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    When the Catholic Church tells its members to absolutely cut off all communciation with anyone who badmouths them, at all, ever, then we can talk about how Scientology is in any way similar to religions.

    So, basically unless they're exactly like Scientology then we can't discuss the similarities? Fuck you, that false dichotomy, and any other apologist for any organization that has anything like "excommunication". I won't even go into how similar the infiltration and intimidation tactics are, even if one is a bit worse than the other... I'll just pose the question: Do you really think a US presidential candidate could claim to be anything but Christian and still win the election?

    When you point a finger at someone else remember that there are three pointing right back at you.

    "one nation under god" indeed.