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Aaron's Law: Violating a Site's ToS Should Not Land You in Jail

Freddybear writes "Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren proposes a change to the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) which would remove the felony criminal penalty for violating the terms of service of a website and return it to the realm of contract law where it belongs. This would eliminate the potential for prosecutors to abuse the CFAA in pursuit of criminal convictions for simple violations of a website's terms of service."

69 of 246 comments (clear)

  1. Depends on... by Z00L00K · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the violation of ToS is due to an illegal action like posting things that are illegal both for the location of the site and the poster it should still land into the legal system, but the large volume of ToS violations should at most render the offender a permanent banning from that site or in milder cases a temporary ban.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    1. Re:Depends on... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      If something is illegal in it's own right, then it still remains illegal, even if it also happens to be a violation of the ToS.

    2. Re:Depends on... by SampleFish · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't depend on anything like that. If you broke a law in your land that is the law that applies. It doesn't matter if the TOS includes reference to a law. The TOS cannot change a law and should have no legal authority.

    3. Re:Depends on... by Capsaicin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the violation of ToS is due to an illegal action like posting things that are illegal both for the location of the site and the poster it should still land into the legal system.

      Say what?!

      No one is talking about removing ToS violations from the legal system. Rather the idea is that a breach of contract (such as violating a ToS) be dealt with under contract law, where imprisonment is unavailable as a remedy. While the mere breach of contractual terms would no longer be a crime in its own right, any crimes committed in effecting or pursuant to such a breach they would still be dealt with by the criminal justice system. Obviously.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    4. Re:Depends on... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is more along the lines of a sites ToS stating "You shall not offend anyone for any reason"
      This is justification for being banned from the site, NOT justification for going to prison.

      Currently, it is a federal crime to "offend someone for any reason" if that is listed in the sites ToS. Or to put it another way, all I have to do is claim your statement offends me and oops you just committed a felony.
      This change is simply trying to remove that insanity.

    5. Re:Depends on... by chrismcb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It shouldn't depend on anything. If you are doing something illegal, like posting things that are illegal, then you should land in the legal system. No MATTER what the TOS is. In this case, it shouldn't matter that you broke the TOS (other than maybe the site banning you),
      But if you do something that is legal (like say give your password to your spouse) but is against the TOS, that should NOT land you in the legal system. Any more than any other breach of contract. Seems like a big case of "DUH" to me.

    6. Re:Depends on... by Cryacin · · Score: 2, Funny

      What is it with all the 's laws that are coming out?

      I have one. Handicapped parking should be called Sheldon's law... "You're in my spot"

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    7. Re:Depends on... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "It doesn't depend on anything like that. If you broke a law in your land that is the law that applies. It doesn't matter if the TOS includes reference to a law. The TOS cannot change a law and should have no legal authority."

      But that is exactly the issue here. Because the law as enacted was rather vague, some prosecutors have been claiming that violation of TOS means violation of the CFAA law... regardless of the fact that a TOS can vary widely from company to company or site to site.

      If so, that would mean, in effect, that a company (or just website) could write its own law by just putting it in the TOS... which is absolutely contrary to our customary legal principles and concept of justice here in the U.S.

      THAT is why we want it changed, and clarified.

    8. Re:Depends on... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Seems like a big case of "DUH" to me."

      Tell it to the prosecutors, because some of them don't seem to understand that.

    9. Re:Depends on... by mysidia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the violation of ToS is due to an illegal action like posting things that are illegal both for the location of the site and the poster it should still land into the legal system, but the large volume of ToS violations should at most render the offender a permanent banning from that site or in milder cases a temporary ban.

      Evading the ban, or continuing to access the site after ordered not to, by the owner, should land you in jail :)

    10. Re:Depends on... by shentino · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's like going to a restaurant.

      By default everyone is welcome.

      Now the management can kick you out for any reason they want, for violating rules (and techinically even if you don't)

      And unless/until that happens you're welcome.

      If you go back, however, it's trespassing.

    11. Re:Depends on... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2, Funny
      My website is my sovereign territory, and I can make the laws on it any how I wish. I can baptise children and mary adults any time I choose.

      -- just so long as the server is in international waters and outside any country's territorial limit!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    12. Re:Depends on... by Swampash · · Score: 2

      No, that's not the way it works. It's "if you broke a law in your land or if you didn't but what you did was still against the law in the USA, even if that's not where you were".

    13. Re:Depends on... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 4, Funny

      For that jaded Grammar Nazi who thinks he's seen it all...

      What is it with all the 's laws...

      *looks for something dull and rusty to gouge eyes out with*

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    14. Re:Depends on... by jonbryce · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In the UK for example, it is illegal to access a computer system without the owner's permission. You could argue that the TOS set out the terms under which the owner is prepared to give permission to access their system, and if you violate them, you don't have permission to access the site, and are therefore breaking the law. I guess it is much the same in the US.

      How do you deal with that? How do you draw the line between a website that is clearly open to the public and an intranet site that is only open to selected people?

    15. Re:Depends on... by anagama · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why? I mean seriously why does everything in America have to involve jail. Do you really think that makes us safer? Eventually somebody will do the math -- 35 years for TOS violations, 15 for rape -- and figure that rape looks like a better deal. You know, if your going to do the time, might as well do a crime to fit it. And that ultimately makes us all less safe. That's the problem with Americans' draconian attitudes.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    16. Re:Depends on... by anagama · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And just how much time could you be threatened with for that real world trespass? Days -- maybe a month or two at most. But apparently for digital trespass, the correct measure is virtually the rest of your life apparently.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    17. Re:Depends on... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Google? Is that you?

      *waves*

    18. Re:Depends on... by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It should be fairly amusing to see you attempt to extradite people who violate your TOS.

    19. Re:Depends on... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I guess that's like cole'slaws, or some other cabbage/salad-based concoction.

    20. Re:Depends on... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ToS aren't even a viable contract IMHO. No-one reads them, if you edit them the web site rarely bothers to check before accepting your terms and quite often the terms are unenforceable anyway.

      We need to move to a system of standard ToS and EULA agreements defined in law that a web site or software vendor can apply to their products. That way we only have to deal with a handful of licenses which are known to be reasonable and will stand up in court.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:Depends on... by Mitreya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ToS aren't even a viable contract IMHO. No-one reads them, if you edit them the web site rarely bothers to check before accepting your terms and quite often the terms are unenforceable anyway.

      Many of them also include "we may change this ToS at any point of time", which is pretty much the opposite of a contract. For example, cell-phone companies could not enforce a mandatory fee for a paper-bill, because that technically constitutes a violation of the already established contract.

      Even better, some ToS state that it is YOUR responsibility to regularly visit their website to see if they changed it (i.e. they are not even responsible for notifying you of the change). So it better be unenforceable...

    22. Re:Depends on... by Mitreya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How do you deal with that? How do you draw the line between a website that is clearly open to the public and an intranet site that is only open to selected people?

      An intranet site that is only open to selected people should have a frigging password protection. Hacking that is presumably a crime on its own accord

      Making a public website and putting a ToS file that says "this is a private internal site" should not be the way to go.

      If I bought a huge parking lot in the city and put a little sign that said "no trespassing" in the corner of the lot -- is that enough to prosecute anyone who steps across an unmarked border? (i.e. I have no fence marking my lot)

    23. Re:Depends on... by Mitreya · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why? I mean seriously why does everything in America have to involve jail. Do you really think that makes us safer? Eventually somebody will do the math

      Someone already has done the math

      Private prisons are a booming industry (instead of being an abomination that should not exist).
      Private prison contracts have clauses guaranteeing prison utilization (~90% or ~95%). Some states may be in danger of defaulting on their prison contract... so that's probably why.

    24. Re:Depends on... by IAmR007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Under this law you could make an incredibly abusive TOS: It is illegal to "intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access, and thereby obtains ... information from any protected computer." A definition of "protected computer" is anything connected to the Internet. You could easily write a TOS that forbid any access to a website, and merely loading the homepage would be illegal the way the law is written. Bypassing authentication is not required to break the law. Even worse, if there were no TOS at all, there would be no authorization given. Although it's way too broad, it's apparent why authorization was made the only consideration: If, conversely, if any data a server offered freely to public requests was termed authorized, then injection attacks could be said to be doing exactly what machine was programmed to do unless a TOS specifically detailed what was authorized input. That brings things right back to the TOS being able to define what is authorized. The law needs to be much more detailed to avoid being too broad, yet avoid "it's not a bug, it's a feature" type defenses.

    25. Re:Depends on... by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Precisely. Yes, I agree with the general idea that this should generally be a civil matter, but there are cases where jail time is appropriate. I'm pretty sure there are clauses in my online banking T&C which would be considered serious fraud if I breached them. The problem is prosecutors trying to set themselves up as "internet specialists" by pushing for convictions under unsuitable laws instead of going for the simple, pre-existing (but less interesting on a CV/resume) fraud laws.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    26. Re:Depends on... by bondsbw · · Score: 2

      "we may change this ToS at any point of time"

      it is YOUR responsibility to regularly visit their website to see if they changed it

      Are you my health insurance provider? Seems I had this exact conversation with them just a few days ago.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    27. Re:Depends on... by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2

      Exactly, and this is how the Misuse of Computers Act is applied. The clue is in the name. A Government spokesperson has already advised people not to use their real names on social media websites, often contrary to the TOS, for security reasons.

      --
      From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  2. Re:Just make assholes illegal! by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    no the power will get to who ever is in the chair and turn them into an a-hole. power corrupts.

    --
    ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  3. While I think this is ostensibly a good idea... by Omnifarious · · Score: 5, Informative

    While I think this is a good idea, I think that it's really too superficial. It very narrowly addresses a very specific problem with the law.

    There are two really great little tidbits I found online that talk about what the actual problems with the law are:

    The first link is actually a really great series that provides a very nice explanation for a lot of things about how criminal law works.

    1. Re:While I think this is ostensibly a good idea... by Omnifarious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And you demonstrate his point perfectly. How many people know that collecting stray bird feathers lying on the ground might get them jail time? Is that an intended consequence of the law? It sounds like you know that regulation better than anybody and don't even care about any wider implications that will have surprising and awful effects, just like the bureaucrat guy in the comic.

      As for the turtle example, the comic author explicitly gives the common snapping turtle as an example. A non-endangered species. State X passes a law about the snapping turtle at time T. And time T + 10 he does a vendor audit and after a lot of effort realizes that one of his vendors is now in a jurisdiction in which its illegal for them to sell him common snapping turtles. Unfortunately, the feds noticed at time T + 1. Oops, he's guilty and intent has nothing to do with it because the law isn't written that way.

  4. Felony Abuse by velvet_stallion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is high time we rollback the number of crimes that result in felony convictions. The "Get Tough On Crime" era only resulted in overstretched state budgets and the creation of an entire underclass of citizens who are barred from certain employments, voting, etc. just because politicians sought to score political points in order to get re-elected. There is a very stark contrast to what the term "felon" implies with regards to the seriousness or violence of the crime, and the rather lackadaisical manner in which it is applied in the legal context.

    1. Re:Felony Abuse by symbolset · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well we are talking about some serious crimes here. 6 months divided by 13 felonies is like what, 14 days each?

      Yeah, maybe at least a year for a federal case, or its disproportionate to call it a felony and ruin a guy's life over.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    2. Re:Felony Abuse by anagama · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Get off your Smug Horse because that's not how it works -- even with the "six month" plea agreement he could have spent years in jail, maybe decades:

      Some have blithely said Aaron should just have taken a deal. This is callous. There was great practical risk to Aaron from pleading to any felony. .... More particularly, the court is not constrained to sentence as the government suggests. Rather, the probation department drafts an advisory sentencing report recommending a sentence based on the guidelines. The judge tends to rely heavily on that "neutral" report in sentencing. If Aaron pleaded to a misdemeanor, his potential sentence would be capped at one year, regardless of his guidelines calculation. However, if he plead guilty to a felony, he could have been sentenced to as many as 5 years, despite the government's agreement not to argue for more. Each additional conviction would increase the cap by 5 years, though the guidelines calculation would remain the same. No wonder he didn't want to plead to 13 felonies. Also, Aaron would have had to swear under oath that he committed a crime, something he did not actually believe.

      http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2013/01/towards-learning-losing-aaron-swartz-part-2

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
  5. Too little too late by dyingtolive · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fantastic fucking idea. You know what would have made it better? If it never was a felony to begin with.

    Don't mod this up. Common sense doesn't need moderation points. I'm venting.

    --
    Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    1. Re:Too little too late by Cryacin · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't mod this up. Common sense doesn't need moderation points.

      Mod him DOWN!!!

      Common sense has no place on slashdot!

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:Too little too late by dyingtolive · · Score: 2

      That's fine too. I have karma to burn and I'm still too angry about this to care.

      I mean, seriously, the guy had promise and vision. I don't consider myself a depressed person, but I'd probably off myself too if JSTOR fucked me in a federal court and then rubbed salt in the wound by giving away for free everything they fucked me over for.

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
  6. Re:No one reads the TOS. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have a document in my backpack; my personal ToS. It states that everyone who shakes my hand must give me $20. By shaking, they agree.

    Fails. Firstly other party is unaware of the terms prior to the hand shake and as you will remember from 1st year law school, past consideration is no consideration. Even if they were it still fails for lack of consideration: the other party suffers a detriment both in paying $20 and in shaking your hand, so the consideration only flows in the same direction ... twice. :p

  7. Re:I'm confused... by fnj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aren't violations of contracts (like ToS) subject to civil law instead of criminal law?

    A law, duly enacted, which makes it a felony to violate such ToS, makes criminal procedure apply. That law has to be fixed, and then that particular violation of contract will revert to the normal civil procedure.

  8. Profit by Improv · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd probably draw a distinction between when money changes hands relating to TOS-violations, and otherwise. There need to be tools to fight botters, for example.

    --
    For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
  9. You know we have a problem when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You can get more time for breaking a ToS than for...

    - Manslaughter
    - Robbing a bank
    - Child porn with intent to distribute

    among other things. Pathetic.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/14/1441211/killers-slavers-and-bank-robbers-all-face-less-severe-prison-terms-than-aaron-swartz-did/

  10. Re:Just make assholes illegal! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That is difficult to fix because senior prosecutors use their position to run for office or become a judge while junior prosecutors use their position to become senior prosecutors. Both of these require making a name for yourself. And there are no penalties for overcharging and intimidating defendants because the prosecutor can simply claim that they were following the law and that their plea bargains are reasonable (so reasonable that even innocent people commonly take them /sarc). Congress isn't going to change the laws because they are owned by the corporations. So the public is fucked. Nothing short of a revolution is going to fix this, and even then I am highly skeptical. The rich will loot the system, the politically connected will get away with high crimes (like HSBC and every other bank), and the common man will continue to get shafted. But at least with a revolution, we can occasionally put some of these fuckers against the wall.

  11. Re:I'm confused... by Pinhedd · · Score: 2

    Generally, but not always.

    Breach of contract is something that is generally settled in civil court but there are some laws which can add criminal teeth to breaches of contract.

    misappropriation of trade secrets is a breach of contract which can have contractual, civil, and criminal remedies depending on what's involved.

  12. Gotcha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    1) Your navigation to this website is considered agreement to the following terms
    2) You shall not view, consider or think about this website
    3) Breach of these conditions will result in all your base belong to us.

  13. I for one by stms · · Score: 3, Funny

    Think that if you violate a TOS you should land in jail it only makes sense.
    --
    Note: by reading this comment you agree to pay me a fee of $1,000,000 if the fee is refused I reserve the right to throw you in jail.

  14. Conduct of Federal Prosecutor Carmen Ortiz by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes, the law is supposed to distinguish between a non-criminal civil dispute between two private parties (Aaron and JSTOR) and a crime which is "an act so horrendous it is against society" - I am paraphrasing a law professor. Aaron's acts don't come close to that. Yet there he was looking at prison.

    ArsTechnica has a good article on this case, which quotes Columbia law professor Tim Wu on the appalling behavior of federal prosecutor Carmen Ortiz:
    In our age, armed with laws passed in the nineteen-eighties and meant for serious criminals, the federal prosecutor Carmen Ortiz approved a felony indictment that originally demanded up to thirty-five years in prison. Worse still, her legal authority to take down Swartz was shaky. Just last year, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals threw out a similar prosecution. Chief Judge Alex Kozinski, a prominent conservative, refused to read the law in a way that would make a criminal of “everyone who uses a computer in violation of computer use restrictions—which may well include everyone who uses a computer.” Ortiz and her lawyers relied on that reading to target one of our best and brightest... The prosecutors forgot that, as public officials, their job isn’t to try and win at all costs but to use the awesome power of criminal law to protect the public from actual harm... Today, prosecutors feel they have license to treat leakers of information like crime lords or terrorists. In an age when our frontiers are digital, the criminal system threatens something intangible but incredibly valuable. It threatens youthful vigor, difference in outlook, the freedom to break some rules and not be condemned or ruined for the rest of your life.
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/01/opening-arguments-in-the-trial-of-public-opinion-after-aaron-swartz-death
    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/01/everyone-interesting-is-a-felon.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/nov/17/silverglate-three-felonies-book

    Academic publishers have been price gauging universities and students for a long time, but to their credit at least JSTOR had the brains to tell the feds to back off. Oritz should have listened to them. Their behavior is merely greedy. Hers is unforgivable: there is no place in government for public officials who abuse their power and harm the public for their own personal advantage.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/apr/24/harvard-university-journal-publishers-prices
    http://enculturation.gmu.edu/knowledge-cartels
    http://boingboing.net/2010/01/03/prescription-for-con.html
    http://academhack.outsidethetext.com/home/2012/ending-knowledge-cartels/

    1. Re:Conduct of Federal Prosecutor Carmen Ortiz by anagama · · Score: 2

      Right -- after you're bankrupted, your career destroyed, maybe even some time in jail, your conviction gets tossed. Do the Feds give you your life back? Fuck no. It's a lose/lose situation caused by people who lost sight of their job -- to protect people from bad guys, but the Feds are more interested in making everyone a "bad guy" because it means they just have more power. The power of tyranny and we get to suck it up while they enrich their benefactors.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
  15. Re:I'm confused... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

    "A law, duly enacted, which makes it a felony to violate such ToS, makes criminal procedure apply. That law has to be fixed..."

    The thing is: Congress probably never intended it to apply to a mere violation of TOS. The ultimate problem is that it is vague, and some prosecutors have chosen to interpret it that way.

    The central issue is not "How can we prosecutors interpret this law to put more people in jail for worse 'crimes'?" There are actually two other questions here: "What was the intent of Congress?" and "Does that represent justice?"



    "The first and governing maxim in the interpretation of a statute is to discover the meaning of those who made it." -- James Wilson, Founding Father.

  16. Re:Feel good law for political gain by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

    Yes, it would have been a terrible precedent to use that law for that purpose, but the fact she escaped any legal responsibility for her predatory behavior is also a terrible precedent. From my POV the US justice system failed to deliver justice in both cases.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  17. Re:No one reads the TOS. by c0lo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have a document in my backpack; my personal ToS. It states that everyone who shakes my hand must give me $20. By shaking, they agree.

    Even if they were it still fails for lack of consideration: the other party suffers a detriment both in paying $20 and in shaking your hand, so the consideration only flows in the same direction ... twice. :p

    Easy fix: switch the places between the hand and the ToS... put the hand in the backpack (detach it if necessary) and offer the ToS to be shaken.

    --
    Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  18. Re:No one reads the TOS. by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 2

    I have a document in my backpack; my personal ToS. It states that everyone who shakes my hand must give me $20. By shaking, they agree.

    Fails. Firstly other party is unaware of the terms prior to the hand shake and as you will remember from 1st year law school, past consideration is no consideration. Even if they were it still fails for lack of consideration: the other party suffers a detriment both in paying $20 and in shaking your hand, so the consideration only flows in the same direction ... twice. :p

    I believe that is how most TOS and EULA's seem to work anyway.

    --
    ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  19. Unfortunately, this "law" cost a life by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree that there are way too many "laws".

    It's just unfortunate that in this case this particular "law" cost the life of a very promising young guy.

    The damn system did him in.

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Unfortunately, this "law" cost a life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The system didn't do him in. PEOPLE caused his death. By taking away all other acceptable options.
      The powers that be decided he must be "MADE AN EXAMPLE OF". Because "minor maybe crime" on a "computer" (ooo scary! hackers! cyber! oh nos!).

      And he was smart enough to realize just how totally screwed he was. Now and in the decades coming of his future.
      He took the only option left to anyone who doesn't like rape and a ruined life plus being billed for it. Death.

      And the powers that be. Will never miss one night of sleep over it. Nothing will ever happen to them. And they will continue to do this to other people.

      The wheels of the american justice machinery grind exceedingly slow and very fine.
      Beware you don't get caught in them. Or else death is the only logical option open to you. Unless handcuffs, bars, rape and abuse is your thing.

    2. Re:Unfortunately, this "law" cost a life by gmuslera · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The "because" probably was more related to that he was a major voice behind the efforts of against sopa/pipa and other movements. That minor maybe crime was the excuse to get it and then try to make an example, you know, like rape charges by someone associated with the CIA. If you go against or scare them, somehow, even for a parking ticket, you will get into deep shit. Taking away a particular tool that they used once don't mean that they are stopped from using them, or any of the other alternatives.

  20. Repeat after me: by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The Terms of Service are a contract. For breach of a contract you are entitled to economic damages*. You are not entitled to throw the other party in jail. Only the government can imprison people and only when the breach is criminal. See post below.

    *JSTOR could have sued him for lost earnings or copyright, but chose not to.

    1. Re:Repeat after me: by mysidia · · Score: 2

      The Terms of Service are a contract.

      The ToS can only be a contract, if the person who signed up to access the site, furnished accurate information, and actually intended to abide by the terms. If you sign a document, in real life, supplying a false name, or false address, or someone else's identity, and/or have no real intention whatsoever to make good on the terms, while you take off with whatever thing of value you received from the other party, then in this case, it's not merely a breach of contract, but a crime in real life, you go to jail, and you should go to jail if you do that online, as well.

      A breach of contract is a failure to satisfy all your obligations, but before you can be merely in breach, you have to have actually have agreed to the contract in good faith, and intended at one time, to adhere to the contract. Deceiving the other party into thinking you two have an agreement, so you can rob them virtually or physically: is fraud.

      For a document to actually be a contract, it has to meet certain legal tests. For a document to be a contract, there has to be a meeting of minds, and there has to be consideration such as payment, or items of monetary value, received by both parties.

      If they furnished false information, eg a fake name, when a real name was required, then they have committed a criminal act that goes far beyond simple breach of contract.

      In most cases a ToS will not be a contract, because nothing prevents you from accessing the site without verifiably agreeing to it. The ToS is something else.

      A ToS is more like a "No trespassing" sign; or more like a "No trespassing; No admittance, except if you follow these rules ...."

      In the event, you don't follow the rules, then you committed the crime of trespass.

    2. Re:Repeat after me: by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 2

      That is not true. You merely have to accept the contract to be bound by it. What you are thinking at the time you accepted it is immaterial. The so called "meeting of the minds" is no longer used as a test for contract acceptance because it was too hard - impossible - for the courts to know what the parties were really thinking. Instead the courts determine whether a contract is formed by how the parties act. For example if you are sending me work and I am doing it the courts will hold we have a contract, even if there was never any written or even oral agreement. http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Offer-and-acceptance.php

      Once you accept the contract you are bound by it even if at the time of accepting it you do not intend to adhere to it or were not acting in good faith. For example, if you are selling me a Picasso for $5 because you don't know what it is, and I do know and intend to screw you over big time, the courts will uphold that contract in my favor. US Courts do take consider good faith, but not like that. Other Common Law countries don't place any weight on good faith at all.

      If you use an alias on a contract, you're still bound by it. You can even have a contract without either party knowing who the other party is. You can still legally use an alias - suppose you want to get away from bad people - though thanks to new laws against identity theft it now means you can accidentally end up on the wrong side of the law - even when no identity was stolen and even when there was no criminal intent. This is a big change in the US that people need to be aware of:
      http://news.cnet.com/police-blotter-is-it-legal-to-use-an-alias-anymore/2100-7348_3-6213284.html
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/nov/17/silverglate-three-felonies-book

      > If they furnished false information, eg a fake name, when a real name was required, then they have committed a criminal act that goes far beyond simple breach of contract.

      "Fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual." Aaron didn't do what he did for personal gain, or with the intention of damaging JSTOR.

      > In most cases a ToS will not be a contract, because nothing prevents you from accessing the site without verifiably agreeing to it. The ToS is something else.

      For a contract to be formed it has to be offered to you and you have to accept. If you are presented with the ToS beforehand as a condition of accessing a site, yes, it is a contract and you are bound by it.

      > A ToS is more like a "No trespassing" sign; or more like a "No trespassing; No admittance, except if you follow these rules ...." In the event, you don't follow the rules, then you committed the crime of trespass.

      If it was never offered to you, then there never was any contract. Also as @Mitreya points out: If they are changing the contract and not telling you let alone getting your agreement, then that's no contract. Civil Law puts a very big emphasis on "reasonable". It's not reasonable to expect consumers to go and check the TOS of every company they buy from every day and sift through thousand work legalese agreements trying to spot changes.

      BTW any good lawyer will come up with half a dozen ways to get out of a contract. An easy one with TOS and shrinkwrap agreements is the companies that offer them know most people don't read them and most people wouldn't understand them even if they read them. A lawyer could argue a client didn't know what they were agreeing too and so claim the contract never existed. http://busines

  21. Re:Great cases make bad law by seebs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That is some serious bullshit there. The "guilty conscience" thing? Seriously, that's just crap. That is not how people work, and that is not how reality works. There are lots of people who know perfectly well that there is a law they have technically broken, but who do not feel guilty about it at all -- but who might not be surprised to face jail time if a prosecutor happened to pick them to make an example of. The problem with this, apart from the victim-blaming, is that you're assuming that "violated a law" and "guilty" are the same thing in any kind of ethical sense. Similarly, "he knew he was guilty, so the probation he would have recieved was deserved."

    This doesn't logically follow, because "deserve" is a moral claim, but you're basing it on the legal system. Legal systems are not moral systems. You can quite easily be fully aware that you have done a thing which is prohibited by a law, but not feel that you deserve jail time for it. Or you might feel that a misdemeanor charge that's in some way related to what you did is justified, but that multiple felony counts aren't.

    The fact is, nothing he did merits years of jail time, and the claim that the prosecutor was "asking for" six months minimum security is highly misleading at best. They were, quite clearly, aiming to make an example of him. Look at previous cases Ortiz prosecuted against people who could afford defense teams, and tell me how "deserved" those outcomes were.

    Long story short, even if we ignore the fact that he was depressed, this was a crazy thing and your attempts to make it look less crazy are disturbing. The just world fallacy is called a fallacy because it is not actually valid reasoning. Your attempts to make yourself feel okay with the world by pretending that what happens is okay and justified are unpersuasive at best. And yet. We know he was depressed, and we know a fair amount about what depression does to people's ability to evaluate things and make decisions. It's bad enough that prosecutors are trying really hard to make dramatic examples of people by going after huge piles of charges without regard to the actual severity of the underlying acts; cherry-picking for depressed people because they're easier to bully is despicable. So's trying to defend it.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  22. Re:Great cases make bad law by 88Seconds · · Score: 2

    The guy was a felon

    No he was an alleged felon. He had not been convicted of any of the crimes he allegedly committed.

    But then since you're posting anonymously, you don't appear to me to be prepared to stand behind the statement you made.

  23. Redundant by Pf0tzenpfritz · · Score: 2

    Yes. But the illegality of that action is completely independent from the site's ToS. ToS just do not belong in criminal law. In fact they are there almost nowhere else in the world.

    --
    Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
  24. Re:No one reads the TOS. by xenobyte · · Score: 2

    Wrong.

    Courts have upheld the ToS/EULA contained within a shrink-wrapped bundle in a way unreadable from the outside that states that by opening this bundle you agree to the contents and forfeit any rights to return the merchandise except where covered by warranty. Microsoft used these for a decade.

    The correct way to handle the Microsoft EULA was to not open it and by other means access their website, read the EULA there and then you'd still have the option to return everything. Later they simply packaged their EULA in a separate loose pamphlet and only shrink wrap software and manuals.

    Actually, most ToS are also 'impossible' - they usually state "...by accessing this site you agree to..." but you need to access the site in order to read that. which means that simply by reading the ToS you agree to them.

    --
    "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
  25. Re:Feel good law for political gain by ami.one · · Score: 2
    Replace 'Bullying' with 'Blackmail' and you can get a better perspective.

    Offering 6 months if you accept guilt and waive your right to a Trial V/s We will get you for 50 years. That's as bad as the mafia asking for protection money - Pay $100 a day OR we'll demolish everything in your shop or break your knees.

  26. Is there a larger issue here though? by popo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A larger problem however is the expectation of non-legal laymen to read and agree to what are ostensibly binding TOS contracts.

    I have seen TOS contracts that (in non-digital format) would be dozens of pages long. Users simply click "Ok" with the assumption that "There's probably nothing bad in there". But this assumption is clearly false in a large number of cases when one considers privacy and security clauses.

    I have seen "Digital trespassing" (which are protected by the DMCA) buried in the TOS carrying agreed monetary damage amounts.

    Consider that a TOS could expressly forbid users to use AdBlock and consider all users of AdBlock to be digital trespassers. You say "Bollocks" (as would I, for the record) but that doesn't change the fact that a TOS can say whatever it wants and the law has already decided that online consent to contracts can be binding. (Not to confuse the greater issue with the legality of this one example of course.)

    The issue ultimately comes down to:
    1) The expectations of lay-people to understand and agree to complex, binding agreements, the vast majority of which are never read.
    2) The binding nature of a click-to-sign agreement.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    1. Re:Is there a larger issue here though? by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Frankly I'd get rid of all contracts of adhesion. Contracts should only have the force of law if they are original creative works authored by both parties. For standard transactions like buying homes/etc you can use a form-based contract, but only if it is embedded in a law (ie the government explicitly approves all standard contracts and their terms).

      Really this amounts to nothing more than actually enforcing the whole "meeting of the minds" bit which is supposed to be at the center of contract law anyway. There is no meeting of the minds when your boss says "sign this or I will fire you" or whatever.

    2. Re:Is there a larger issue here though? by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have often thought that a binding TOS / EULA should be mandated to take the following form, with very clear language:
      >>
      You agree not to distribute a bazillion copies of our software [Yes] [x No]
      You agree that we own your content [Yes] [x No]
      You agree that we are not liable for damage [Yes] [x No]
      You agree to not sue us if we lose your credit card information [Yes] [x No]

      I'm sorry, it seems we cannot agree on a contract. In particular, these terms are mandatory:
      * You agree not to distribute a bazillion copies of our software
      * You agree that we are not liable for damage
      * You agree not to sue us if we lose your credit card information
      The following would be stored as a user preference:
      * You agree that we own your content: NO (Note: May limit functionality)

  27. any trespassing cases based on odd store rules? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    any trespassing cases based on odd store rules out there??

    And let's say there is some whites only rule at one (let just say it's old but is still on the books or say on a sign that may be still up even if it's just for show or history) that can still be used as a part of a Throw the Book at someone in court.

    1. Re:any trespassing cases based on odd store rules? by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Store rules are actually a good way of looking at this sort of thing.

      If you do something really obnoxious in a store they can ask you to leave. If you refuse to do so they can call the police. You can of course sue the store for discrimination, and the police might not even make you leave if the basis for the removal is so egregious.

      Website TOS's should be similar. If somebody doesn't like what you're doing on their website they should ask you to leave, and if you cooperate then no crime has occurred. Unfortunately that isn't what this law was being used for - imagine if you wear a hat in a store that has a "no hats" policy and the owner just called the police, and they showed up, and then charged you with a felony for violating the store rules.

      Trespassing is only trespassing if somebody actually asks you to leave. Now, if you walk into a store and set fire to it then you can be arrested on the spot, but not for trespassing.

    2. Re:any trespassing cases based on odd store rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Trespassing is only trespassing if somebody actually asks you to leave.

      Not entirely. Disregarding properly posted notice is enough to trigger an arrest for trespassing. If you go wander into... say, MIT's server closet with a big "PRIVATE" sign on the door... the president of MIT doesn't have to come down to the server closet to let you know you're trespassing and ask you to leave. Unintentional trespass - say, wandering onto a farmer's land while taking a walk - would generally not have anything in the way of legal liability, though the farmer could STILL call the cops and get them to remove you from his property.

      the police might not even make you leave if the basis for the removal is so egregious.

      Actually, they would make you leave. If the owner of the store (or his duly appointed representative) wants you to leave, then he has the legal standing to have you removed from the store by law enforcement - he doesn't have to give you a reason. If you feel his reasons are discriminatory, you can certainly file a civil suit against him after you've been removed, but the police are not judges or juries or lawyers - If you own the property, you get to determine who can be there.

    3. Re:any trespassing cases based on odd store rules? by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      I'm actually fine with having Aaron charged with trespassing for going in that server closet. However, that should really be a misdemeanor, as should be trespassing in general.

      In the US at least in most areas I could actually walk up to the store owner and punch him in the face and it would only be a misdemeanor, as long as I didn't proceed to beat him into a pulp, and I didn't have a history, and I didn't rob him/etc.