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Earth May Have Been Hit By a Gamma-Ray Burst In 775 AD
The Bad Astronomer writes "Studies of carbon-14 in Japanese trees and beryllium-10 in Antarctic ice indicate the Earth was hit by a big radiation blast in 775 AD. Although very rare, occurring only once every million years or so, the most likely culprit is a gamma-ray burst, a cosmic explosion accompanying the birth of a black hole. While a big solar flare is still in the running, a GRB from merging neutron stars produces the ratio of carbon and beryllium observed, and also can explain why no bright explosion was seen at the time, and no supernova remnant is seen now."
I thought a nearby GRB would wipe out all life, all the way down to viruses.
At least that's what Michia Kaku and his bullshit "science" documentaries on Discovery Channel have been telling me.
The Incredible Hulk was hit by a gamma-ray burst in 1962 AD.
became ye olde incredible hulke...
Depends on intensity I imagine. The article notes it had to be further then 3000 light years away or they'd have expected it to cause an extinction event - and also that there are "short" and "long" GRBs.
But you not like earth when EARTH ANGRY! RAAWWWRR
So I guess that means that, assuming they are correct, that this particular doomsday scenario is now a non-factor for the (un)foreseeable future.
Nice to be crossing one off the list for a change. :)
Did we get struck twice in 775? I bet samzenpus knows.
http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/06/04/1147201/what-struck-earth-in-775
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
A nearby...but a less nearby would still be detectable.
http://mobile.wnd.com/2008/09/75434/ could it be?
I thought a nearby GRB would wipe out all life, all the way down to viruses.
It would. But if it was farther away, it would just create a bunch of radioactive isotopes in the upper atmosphere while leaving life on the ground mostly unmolested.
If only someone had an estimate of how far away this one was, and had presented it in something that would describe this news item in detail. We could call it an "article".
For non-douches who also didn't RTFA, it's estimated at 3000 to 13000 ly away. For comparison, in Phil's book "Death from the Skies" he discusses what would happen as a result of a GRB from 100 ly away, and the result is Very Bad(tm).
The enemies of Democracy are
Alex, calling people idiots doesn't really help your credibility. Try not being a name calling jackass. 3 digit ID doesn't give you the right to be a prick.
...why everything tastes like blue.
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
I understand some of these words.
They were really the Glow-In-The-Dark Ages.
FTA: "In the last 3000 years, the maximum age of trees alive today, only one such event appears to have taken place."
The actual oldest trees are about 5,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees)
Though that doesn't devalidate his main point (that this has only happened once in 3,000 years). I just wish he'd fact-check a bit more.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"We cannot treat name-calling as reasoned debate."
That was a line in a speech delivered earlier today. I doubt he was referring to Slashdot specifically, but it's well taken here anyway.
Alex, calling people idiots doesn't really help your credibility. Try not being a name calling jackass. 3 digit ID doesn't give you the right to be a prick.
Normally I would agree, but when the person you're responding to was being a douche to begin with, the response is warranted.
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
I've heard the 775 C14 anomaly attributed to a very large solar storm period too, even those these guys dismiss the idea.
Neither of the articles discuss what might have happened to living things at the time. Could some people have had radiation sickness for example? Could this have caused mutations?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
that's older than one day.
Or else they would have come alive & trapped Emilio Estevez in a gas station.
Gee, don't confuse the actor and the character.
Finally I have a starting point in my quest to find Bruce Banner!
Is this better?
For comparison, in Phil's book "Death from the Skies" he discusses what would happen as a result of a GRB from 100 ly away, and the result is Very Bad(tm).
Of course for all the preppers out there it should also be said that the closest confirmed GRB is 1.3 billion light-years from Earth, the observation period isn't very long but it's hardly a common occurrence. Which is also why I'm a little sceptic that we've had one right on our doorstep only a few thousand light years away.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/774%E2%80%93775_radiation_burst
The part about witness accounts to a red cross like image in the sky, meaning someone may have actually seen the event...
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
When anything that is said to occur only once in an enormous amount of time, such as a million years, is claimed to have happened in recorded history, I immediately start to doubt.
775AD is 1,238 years ago. If such a gamma-ray burst is certain to happen at any point in 1,000,000 years, the (mean average) chance it happened in the last 1,238 years is 1,238 / 1,000,000 = 0.001238 x 100 per cent. So just over 0.1%. So improbable, it's margins-of-error territory. A one in a thousand chance means it may have happened, but it's so unlikely, there's probably another explanation for the evidence.
... when the person you're responding to was being a douche to begin with, the response is warranted.
I disagree. If the person was repeatedly directing the douchebaggery to you, then you might have a reason. However, when there is a single comment about a television show (not the person, the show), and that comment is only a non-genteel expression of the poster's opinion about the show, then the name-calling is unwarranted.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
They have to happen sometime and somewhere. Why not a little over 1,000 years ago and kinda-sorta near us? It's as good a place as any.
It's Global warming!!! Tax the rich immediately!!
Wouldn't it be possible to calculate where that black hole formed in the night sky at the time, and where it is located at the present? When done go looking for it at the guesstimated position and see if there actually is a black hole that corresponds to the one hypothesized!?
Just the opposite.
Douchebaggery directed against objective truth deserves more harsh response than personal attacks.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Three digit ID? I thought it meant IQ. So I don't really have a seven digit IQ? ... *sigh*
I said - don't look Ethel!..., but it was too late..., she'd already looked.
> Wouldn't it be possible to calculate where that black hole formed in the night sky at the time, and where it is located at the present?
I'm guessing insufficient data. The distance and bearing would need to be established with some precision.
As for finding a stellar-sized black hole 1,000 light years away, unless its effects can be noted, even its peripheral effects would be difficult to observe.
This is why we'll have to be careful once the scientists get off their lazy butts and give us hyperdrive. There you are, zipping along, and all of sudden, "chomp," you get eaten by an uncharted black hole. :)
Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
There was another event that led to modification of the natural isotopes in North America:
http://ie.lbl.gov/paleo/paleo.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/nuclear.html
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
also, couldnt a grb at worst wipe out life on just half the planet? Surely if you're on the "dark side of the earth" for this event, you would be safe.
It would be pretty grim for anything near the surface.
I think even a nearby long GRB would only fry half the planet, being 30 seconds long.
and on /. they're called... Alex? I think the point is that by name calling you started a minor flame war that is better suited to sites like 4chan. Perhaps it would be best to take the advice and go forward with a little more respect to other posters.
also, couldnt a grb at worst wipe out life on just half the planet? Surely if you're on the "dark side of the earth" for this event, you would be safe.
Sure, if you can build the 40,000 km long, 30 km high wall around the terminator fast enough to prevent your part of atmosphere from getting spoiled with all the NO2 generated by the gamma burst interacting with the atmosphere.
Ezekiel 23:20
Article says 3000 years is the maximum age for trees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees
Well, IIRC from the book, basically everything on the facing side of the earth would be dead and on fire. It would also entirely destroy the ozone layer in that hemisphere. Once the atmosphere had equalized, what would be left wouldn't be enough to protect the survivors from the sun, so they'd all die too, just more slowly and painfully.
The enemies of Democracy are
If only someone had an estimate of how far away this one was, and had presented it in something that would describe this news item in detail. We could call it an "article".
I would still call it an article if it just contained the word "the".
I am anarch of all I survey.
I would still call it an article if it just contained the word "the".
Definitely.
The enemies of Democracy are
No.
The GRB lasts about 2 seconds. They get the time from from tree rings and ice cores so the are getting a
event date to the nearest year. and even if you knew a specific night - you don't know the angle it hit the earth
from so at best your search space is a half/sphere, and in reality it's the whole damn sky.
umm, I'm pretty sure it does. It's in the terms of service somewhere, but nobody ever reads it.
The concentrations would have to be startlingly high to actually wipe out all surface life. Even then, the life that doesn't breathe, or lives in the ocean, or just isn't as badly affected as large mammals would be just fine.
I don't even know who this Kaku guy is and I still tend to agree with the assessment that the original post wasn't very well considered.
Half the world on fire is still only half the world on fire. This planet is broken up into land masses separated by ocean. There would be a lot of soot and byproducts causing terrible air quality, and probably some "nuclear winter" style weather for a while. Lots and lots of things would die, but certainly not everything. As for the loss of the ozone layer, the soot would probably make up for that. The ozone layer would recover and animals would modify their behaviour to avoid excessive sun damage in the meantime.
This is why we'll have to be careful once the scientists get off their lazy butts and give us hyperdrive. There you are, zipping along, and all of sudden, "chomp," you get eaten by an uncharted black hole. :)
There isn't such a high density of black holes that the risk would be that high.
Assuming your hyperdrive equipped vehicle still has to obey the laws of physics... the gravitational forces exerted by any celestial object, including dark matter, could be a risk.
Specifically... the risk of crashing into solid matter that doesn't emit or reflect light.
From here:
Google: Get to know it. Make it your friend.
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-text-gives-clue-to-mysterious-radiation-spike-1.10898
It would effect plants as well as animals. Why would you think soot could replace ozone as a UV blocker? The nitrous oxides produced would prevent the recovery of the ozone layer for decades or centuries.
WTF is an "extinction EVENT" and how TF does it differ from an extinction? Just out of curiosity, when you use the toilet, do you experience a defecation episode, or do you take a shit?
Sorry, not meaning to be pedantic, however this Terran revolution presented as an exceedingly lengthy, dysphoric, trans-solar sojourn.
Do you have the slightest idea of how ignorant and foolhardy you sound? I'm sure everyone else in your class thinks you're real cool, talking all tough online, but the truth is you represent hate. Name calling, foul language and generally being an ass proves nothing but your level of maturity. Is asking for civility really so offensive to you?
Why would you think soot could replace ozone as a UV blocker?
Because carbon-carbon bonds absorb UV light. It would be temporary compared to the overall length of the UV depletion, of course. The chief survival mechanism would still be sheltering from the light. Things living in high latitudes would have a much easier time. Don't get me wrong, it would be devastating to life in general and there would be mass extinctions and very tough living conditions. But the world wouldn't be sterilized. There are events that could certainly sterilize the world, but the one under discussion, which only has secondary effects on the other hemisphere, wouldn't be enough.
This was awesome, GO FLAMEWAR!!! WOOOOOOHHHH!
I was going to make popcorn and watch the fireworks, but then I realized I am out of popcorn. :(
Just for fun, how close would the GRB have to be to cook a movie-sized (large) tub of microwave popcorn? Probably should ask Randall Monroe (xkcd.com/whatif) this one, I'm sure he'd love it.
Incidentally, someone mentioned being on the dark-side of the planet. If the burst duration was long enough most of the Earth would probably swing into view at some point, so everyone could enjoy the primary effects, (being cooked from the inside out,) but whoever wrote that failed to consider that the universe is at least (opinions differ on how high it goes,) three dimensional. If the burst were from the general direction of Polaris, most of the world's populace lives in the half on THIS side of the equator, and MOST of us would get cooked, even if fully half of the geography is untouched by Gamma Rays.
Hey... night club for nerds/geeks/etc... Gamma Ray's! (Gammy Ray, proprietor) There probably is already one somewhere. I'll have to look now.
775 Common Era.
[rolls up newspaper]
Bad Astronomer!
Bad bad bad astronomer!
WTF is an "extinction EVENT" and how TF does it differ from an extinction? Just out of curiosity, when you use the toilet, do you experience a defecation episode, or do you take a shit?
Sorry, not meaning to be pedantic, however this Terran revolution presented as an exceedingly lengthy, dysphoric, trans-solar sojourn.
No you cause a defecation event!
Because given the size and age of the universe, that would be extremely close to us in time and space. They don't happen frequently, and the odds it would happen so near to us are (sorry) astronomical.
Specifically... the risk of crashing into solid matter that doesn't emit or reflect light.
I see that you too own a black lab that sleeps between the bed and the bathroom...
How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?
In case you're not trolling: an extinction event refers to something that suddenly causes a number of species to become extinct. To use your analogy, it's the difference between one person going to a restaurant's toilet (because it was just that time to go), and a hundred people all trying to go at once (because the buffet drinks were spiked).
An extinction is one species, an extinction event is a significant number of species.
null
Swearing comes from a primitive part of the brain. By swearing, your entire tone comes off full of emotion. It's an indication of which parts of the brain you're using to make your case. Can you say why you think the other person is an idiot? Is it just ignorance? Surely we are all ignorant of many things.
> Which is also why I'm a little sceptic that we've had one right on our doorstep only a few thousand light years away.
It is theoretised that the mass extinction from 435 million years ago is to blame on a GRB.
Half the world on fire is still only half the world on fire. This planet is broken up into land masses separated by ocean.
If the earth were oriented favorably such that only some of the landmasses were facing, rather than parts of all of them, that would be helpful, yes.
As for the loss of the ozone layer, the soot would probably make up for that. The ozone layer would recover and animals would modify their behaviour to avoid excessive sun damage in the meantime.
You are grossly underestimating the time it would take for the ozone layer to recover from this kind of depletion, and how devastating the sun's UV would be without it. The ozone layer hasn't fully recovered since the CFC ban in the 90s and that was comparatively tiny. More than half the ozone layer would be gone (because the ozone layer is in the upper atmosphere which would be exposed around the limb of the planet). The soot would be long gone and lethal doses of UV light would be bombarding the planet. Anything that lived even partly in the open, or depended on the sun -- which means all photosynthesizing plants, herbivores that eat them, and predators that eat them -- wouldn't adapt, they would be dead.
There would still be life on earth -- that which lived underground or more than a few meters under the ocean -- but it would be an extinction event unlike any ever seen on earth before.
The enemies of Democracy are
Not merely species, but entire genera and even higher clades such as families and orders can vanish. The dinosaurs which were almost completely wiped out in the KT event are a sub-order. And of course, we are in the midst of a major extinction event right now, due to human activity since the Pleistocene.
"Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!" -- Ivanhoe
If the earth were oriented favorably such that only some of the landmasses were facing, rather than parts of all of them, that would be helpful, yes.
OK - I give up after much staring at a globe ...
I can get the Pacific Rim on one side ... so Asia, Australia and North America but can not for the life of me see how you would extinct Europe and particularly Great Britain.
Or I can center Sri Lanka and wipe out Australia, Africa, Asia and possibly Europe ... but not a hope of impacting the Americas.
Or center the Antarctic and EurAsia is safe.
Or center Northern Europe, I get everything except SE Asia ... Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia, etc
etc ... etc
How would you orient the earth so you had parts of all land masses facing in the same direction?
I have a Newfoundland like that
If you had enough trees to check, neatly spaced over the globe, then you'd be able to pinpoint the exact half of the earth that was irradiated. The event was straight above the middle of that half-globe at that time.
No, the trouble is in finding where that point was in the sky. That requires the exact date and time of the day (unless it's precisely north or south).
The data would be very valuable in finding out what distance is dangerous in black hole forming, but alas, it's probably unavailable.
Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
Use a map instead of a globe. Makes it much easier. :P
Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
I wouldn't suck all the oxygen out but break down the ozone layer. And that doesn't require a GRB that lasts 24 hours. NO2 can be created very quickly by the GRB but it won't degrade as quickly. And having a very weakened ozone layer would mean extinction for many species.
Swearing comes from a primitive part of the brain.
citation please, otherwise I call BS.
> There isn't such a high density of black holes that the risk would be that high.
There isn't a very high density of sandbars and reefs in the oceans, and yet, the USS Guardian (thanks to a bad digital map and an allegedly arrogant captain who allegedly ignored a warning from officials in the Tubbataha Reefs Natural Park) managed to find one off the coast of the Philippines. :)
Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
It's OK to be a prick to name calling AC pricks. Sometimes they need to be taught a lesson.
Calling someone a prick is never NEVER going to teach them a 'lesson'.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
You don't need to get Asia and Europe, they're connected.
There will always be islands on the far side of the GRB and far enough from the major landmasses that there's little chance the global-scale fires would reach them.
That's really a secondary effect to death-by-Sun.
The enemies of Democracy are
This kind of pun is why I still read /. Well done, Chris.
I'm not a coward by any name.
AC I bet you've got shelf full of participation trophies.
Which is a lot better than what fucktarded asspies like you can receive. You are so fucking stupid that you failed at even getting participation trophies at any and all events you participated in. I can't blame you as it was the weak genes from your fucktarded parents that put you in this position. After all, there are those that are genetically predisposed to be a total fuckup at everything and since that would be you fucktard suicide would be your best option.
It is also very likely to be far away because the gamma ray burst is thought to be generated along the axis of the rotating star. So the chance that a nearby star will happen to point exactly towards us is very low indeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-ray_burst One that might be a danger at some point apparently is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WR_104 but most likely it is angled more like 30 degrees to us so not a danger (just summarizing the info you find on wikipedia about them)
Calling someone a prick is never NEVER going to teach them a 'lesson'.
And besides, they might hold it against you //rimshot
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
I just skimmed two-thirds of the comments here. AFAIK, no one read the link.
To sum up: they say the event they think occured was between 3k and 12k ly away.
Oh, and Michio Kaku is a better physicist than you are, regardless of what he dumbed down for the whatsit channel.
mark
It seems to be possible to use space based solar power to displace fossil fuels. The concept is to bootstrap by building one power satellite with conventional rockets and equip it with propulsion lasers. The laser is used to heat hydrogen reaction mass in a fleet of vehicles. The improved performance drops the cost of building power satellites to where they undercut coal by half. With that much of an advantage, energy from space would rapidly take most of the market.
However, a GRB like the 774-775 event would make a mess of satellites, how much would depend on how well they were hardened. But it's possible to imagine an event that killed the satellites and people in space without doing significant damage to the people on the ground. If, as I expect, the only way to get into space by that time was laser propulsion from space, getting the energy supply working again would present serious problems.
End MGM. Get prospective parents of boys to Google: Men do complain
There must have been Hulks raging everywhere! Chaos!
And that doesn't even take into account all the Gorignaks (aka, rock monsters) running around.
No wonder the Dark Ages followed!
The benefits of using I-statement are many. I encourage you to try. For instance by rephrasing as "I think you are an idiot".
And besides if you instead had written "I think you are an idiot" then I think you would be perceived much more mature that you probably are currently. In my opinion calling other people an idiot/moron/douchebag/whatever is childish. Even if it is true.
When you are sure of something, you probably are wrong (search for "Unskilled and Unaware of It").
I for one welcome our Incredible Hulk ancestors. Mr. McGee, don't make me angry. You won't like me when I'm angry!
Don't worry Alex. Jesus still loves you.
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
The soot clearly wouldn't provide protection for long, I certainly concede that. Just how completely the ozone layer would be depleted isn't really clear, however. Even in a worst case scenario, loss of the ozone layer doesn't mean all UV light gets through. The UVC gets blocked by the rest of the atmosphere regardless, the major rise would be in UVB. The direct effects would be very bad for the short term and long term health of non-nocturnal land animals incapable of finding shelter. The nocturnal ones or the diurnal ones which modify their behaviour and only expose themselves in the mornings or evening could probably get by. The more pressing concern is plant life on land which would provide much of the necessary shelter for non-burrowing animals and also makes up a good chunk of their food supply. To start with, many plants already have vastly better UV resistance than animals. They're more resistant to DNA damage and have various protective mechanisms. Are there plants that could survive at the equator in high summer with no ozone layer whatsoever? Hard to say absolutely since there are so many potential survival strategies, but most of the existing trees, for example, would probably die off along with their leaves. Grasses that grow thick and deep might be able to survive with dead upper layers protecting living layers underneath. In higher latitudes, the UV wouldn't be a problem all year round and trees could probably survive. In summer, leaves would probably tend to die off, but they could probably still eke out an existence as long as they have fairly opaque bark. All the vegetation that would die off would make way for other life, such as fungi which could take their place in the food chain.
Don't misunderstand me, it would be a massive, massive disaster and extinction event. Still, it's not inconceivable for many living things, including many types of large land animal, to survive through the disaster and repopulate afterwards.
FTFY
The increased UV radiation at the surface is an issue if you're on the surface. If you are an organism living below a few metres water depth, or under a few cm of soil, then it's much less of a problem. The loss of those more sensitive species would certainly be a problem, but with our technologies we should have a pretty good chance of surviving as a species. It might be 90% or higher casualties, and it would be a drastically altered world afterwards, but I don't find a GRB terribly threatening on a species- or life- extinguishing front.
And yes, I did read the fucking paper. Last night. Interesting work, well argued. I'm not 100% convinced, but they do make a good case.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
The increased UV radiation at the surface is an issue if you're on the surface.
An extinction doesn't require the whole range of species being wiped out, but a big enough number of them. I think that a very weakened ozone layer would actually mean that many diurnal species would actually disappear, enough for it to be considered an extinction. Besides, the life forms able to survive this (without artificial means like us) are precisely the niche ones that would take a good time to recolonize the planet. I mean, for most of the living species on the planet, plants (and plancton) are the basis of the trophic chain. And both plants and plancton live basically on the surface. Damage them enough and you will see many species go extinct quite quickly, even nocturnal ones, actually.
The experiment has been done, repeatedly. The time taken for essentially complete re-colonisation of the planet from a rump of species surviving a mass extinction, is trivial. A mere couple of million years. In the more restricted case of colonising a newly-emerged island, it's even less - a mere tens to hundreds of thousands of years. Though trophic complexity does increase for a considerable period after that initial radiation. (Yes, I am a geologist ; I'm playing it dead straight when I say " a mere couple of million years".)
Actually many, many species (and genera, and orders) of plankton (which is an environmental classification, not a group of related organisms) move up and down through the water column on a diurnal cycle. Some rise to the surface to graze on photosynthetic plankton (plant or animal) by day and sink by night ; some rise to hunt by night and sink by day. Plankton are hugely variable in this, and the distances moved can be well in excess of a hundred metres. Which is enough to be far more important to their survival than the surface flux of UV.
Land plants are confined to the surface, true. But their seeds aren't, and can delay germination for decades or centuries.
I'm not an ecologist, and my palaeontological training is only a few hundred hours of lectures and practicals, plus a couple of decades of having to work hand in glove with palaeontologists on high-precision environmental analysis and interpretation as part of optimising oil well placement (I've just finished a 12 hour shift doing just that, and I'll be back on shift in another 10 hours). But that's enough to teach me that life and trophic systems have plenty of resilience to surviving quite severe environmental insults. We use the consequent floral and faunal changes as day-to-day tools for recognising where we are in the rock column.
Sure, a GRB nearby would have a big effect for a few tens to hundreds of thousands of years, and less noticeable effects for millions more. But in the grand scheme of things, it might queue up with the "big five" mass extinctions, but it's more likely to queue up with the dozen or so minor mass extinctions. For comparison, the PETM (or in my working language, the "T75 maximum flooding surface palynological event") event which marks a popular landing surface for horizontal wells in the CNS "Forties" play, was caused by volcanism triggering the release of a few hundreds of petatonnes of carbon into the atmosphere. Our current rate of injection of carbon into the atmosphere is faster, so I'd expect our legacy to be somewhat larger than the PETM. Say, a quarter to a half million years for things to stabilize again, once we've stopped doing what we're doing. Call it ten thousand (human) generations. Not very long.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"