Senators Seek H-1B Cap That Can Reach 300,000

dcblogs writes "A bipartisan group of Senators is planning to introduce a bill that allows the H-1B visa cap to rise automatically with demand to a maximum of 300,000 visas annually. This 20-page bill, called the Immigration Innovation Act of 2013 or the 'I-Squared Act of 2013,' is being developed by Sens. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.), Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), and Chris Coons (D-Del.). It may be introduced next week. Presently, the U.S. has an H-1B visa cap of 65,000. There are another 20,000 H-1B visas set aside for advanced degree gradates of U.S. universities, for 85,000 in total. Under the new bill, the base H-1B cap would increase from 65,000 to 115,000. But the cap would be allowed to rise automatically with demand, according to a draft of the legislation."

Comments

Definition of a cap

[Anonymous Coward]

So what the hell use is a cap that rises with demand?

Re:Definition of a cap

[geminidomino]

The same use as a "limited" copyright duration that extends on demand.

I.e. it's a lot of use to the scumbags that purchase these laws.

Re:Definition of a cap

[yurtinus]

Fighting the immigrants is the wrong battle. I'd much rather have that Pakistani born programmer be working here as a US citizen - protected by US labor laws and paid a competitive US salary than be "on loan" under an H1-B visa which his employer can use to depress the wages of his other employees.

Re:Definition of a cap

[hairyfeet]

Why? Our border is such a bad fucking joke you could just walk a bomb across the thing along with the dope and slaves brought over it annually, they won't do shit about the scumbag companies that will hire Paco for $3 an hour and make him work in unsafe conditions (and don't give me that "Paco only takes jobs Americans don't want" horseshit, in my area construction USED to be a way a guy who wasn't cut out for college could feed his family. Now you can drive by any site and yell "Immigra!" and watch them scatter like fucking deer and guess who gets stuck for his care when the scumbag contractor puts his ass on a rickety ladder in high winds and he fucks himself up? That would be YOU through higher hospital bills) and they have completely wiped out several professions. Being an IT worker USED to be a good job but between H1-Bs and offshoring I wouldn't recommend my worst enemy go into IT now.

The whole thing is a fucking scam that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as degrees cost us a high 5 digits to get yet they expect us to "compete" with some guy that paid like $5k for HIS degree (if he even has one, so many of those body mills just lie their asses off, you could ask for somebody with 40 years of .NET and they'd send someone right over) so nobody with a functioning brain will go into those fields because they see it ends up 400 guys competing with each other for one fake job ( see this video for examples. Once you know what to look for you can check your local paper and will find dozens if not hundreds of fake jobs) so the bloodsucking leech of a corp goes "See? We can't get somebody with a dozen degrees to work for less than the guy that cleans puke at the Chuck E Cheese so we NEED more green cards and H1-Bs! Sob!" and write a fucking check to our joke known as "public servants" and there you go, the systematic gutting of the American middle class.

Remember the words of Thomas Jefferson who could see this stuff was coming: "Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

Re:Definition of a cap

[doubledown00]

It seems to me that a more "open" workforce market can only be a good thing if it breaks down the barriers that allow companies in India, China, wherever to offer work for a pittance, when those workers can just go to another country and get a better living wage.

----

1) Why should I care about the "barriers" and wages of other countries when there are people unemployed and starving here?

2) Why should we help these other countries reform their own labor practices at our expense?



The H1-B is suppose to assist companies in filling gaps when the local labor pool cannot provide. It was *intended* to be an "America First" solution. Instead it has been co-opted as a way to keep labor costs down rather than paying IT talent what the market demands.

Re:Definition of a cap

[JDG1980]

Forgive me, but I dont really understand why people in this country deserve jobs more than people in another country, particularly if theyre more skilled or asking for less money.

You know why members of Congress are called Representatives?

Because they're supposed to represent us. They are supposed to stand up for our interests. Not because Americans are somehow cosmically more worthy than non-Americans, but because it's our fucking country and it is supposed to be run for the benefit of "ourselves and our posterity."

If Indians want good stuff then they have their own democratically elected government to go to. I expect the Indian government to put the interests of Indians over the interests of Americans, but likewise I expect the U.S. government to put the interests of Americans over the interests of foreigners.

Re:Definition of a cap

[Anonymous Coward]

Try to get a programmer job in India. You will politely be informed that Indian jobs are for Indians.

Re:Definition of a cap

[torkus]

Thank god someone with a brain saved me the trouble of writing that out.

We seem to be the only country more interested in making everyone besides ourselves (assuming you exclude corporate 'personas') happy...at our own expense.

Unemployment remains high, jobs are not particularly easy to come by for many, pay is lower than it should be, companies are cutting jobs and marginalizing other work, and so on. Do we really need to add another several hundred thousand jobs for non-citizens where the majority of the money will simply leave the country? Other than serving corporate greed, it does nothing to help our country. Tax them at 50% and put that money into training for US citizens.

Honestly with where unemployment is right now, the whole program SHOULD have been terminated. Those Representatives should consider who they represent these days.

Re:Definition of a cap

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I dont think the workers from poorer countries think they are being screwed. I mean, from the standpoint of what they could be making, maybe, but from the standpoint of what they were making, not really.

That's why we need to stand up for them. I don't mean keep them out, I mean make the H1B program less about indentured servitude and more about citizenship.

Right now, H1B is used as an unofficial visa on the green-card/citizenship path. It takes about 5 years of continuous residence to get a green card if you are in the country on an H1B. But an H1B is only good for 6 years. You can only get a green-card if you are sponsored by your current employer. If you change employers, the process starts over. So if you want a green card you are effectively a hostage of your current employer.

I say modify the H1B visa program to be an official citizenship-seeking visa. Require H1B visa holders also apply for a green-card starting as soon as they are on US soil and make that application the visa holder's responsibility and take the employer completely out of the loop.

Re:Definition of a cap

[Trailer Trash]

I was not aware we had an infinite supply of anything, let alone of skilled / employable CS or IT workers.

If I have a 10 gallon bucket, 11 gallons of water is the same as "infinite" for some operations. The bottom line is that if x IT jobs open up in the US then we can always find x foreign workers to fill them at a lower wage. For the market to think the supply is infinite, I only need one more worker than there are jobs.

Look, I explained this in an earlier post on this subject. My wife came here on an H-1A as an RN. They brought her to work for substandard wages at shitty nursing homes. The nursing homes could easily have hired Americans to work for them, but they found it was cheaper to claim they couldn't find anybody (a legal requirement for petitioning an H-1x) and then hire some foreigner to do it at a paltry wage. They're supposed to treat them well, but trust me - there's a world of difference between a boss that can fire you and one that can put your ass on a plane back to Asia.

I obviously benefitted greatly from this arrangement, and I'm damned glad that I have an asian babe for a wife. Seriously. But the bottom line is that these companies are depressing wages by bringing folks like her over here and then creating a vicious cycle whereby the depressed wages cause even fewer people to want to join that part of the labor market causing them to bring over more foreigners.

I'm not anti-corporate. Hell, I have an ownership stake in multiple companies. What you see here is crony capitalism, and it's good for the cronies and bad for the rest of us. We need to put an end to work visas like this all together and let the market pull these wages up to the level that they should be.

negatory, cut them back, hard

[swschrad]

if you want to educate the next generation of IT workers in the US and have them stay here for their lives, adding to the economy, start cutting back on H1Bs now. it's just an excuse to in-shore cheaper help and shoo them away before they start complaining.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[im_thatoneguy]

Why on earth would we want to do that? Historically our technological innovation has been driven domestically in part because we have such an open policy to immigrants. The space program was dramatically accelerated by accepting German immigrants. The Manhattan Project owes a lot to immigrants. Let's get our collective nationalist heads out of our asses and acknowledge that there are people around the world who are smarter than most unemployed Americans. Unemployment for those with Masters in computer science/engineering is in the low single digits.

Which would you rather happen: foreign talented developers to start their companies in Asia, Europe or South America or for them to be in the states and hopefully develop their idea in the states? Most tech startups are employees who work at Microsoft or Google and then leave to create their company. If they don't come to the US, their good ideas don't come with them and we lose the best ideas in the world because we're afraid a burger flipper won't somehow magically get a job at Google because of the big bad Indian who took his hypothetical job.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[ColdWetDog]

We're not talking about importing cream of the crop folks. No Einsteins or Von Brauns. We're talking about entry level programmers and tech flunkies.

Sure, there are good people in that pile - that really isn't the point. The issue is that the transnational corporations are trying to drive down costs (and drive up profits) irrespective of the local damage caused. They can go elsewhere, after all.

All it takes is getting a few cheap whores^Hpoliticians to do their bidding. Just the price of business.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[Austerity Empowers]

This isn't about "multiculturalism", nobody cares what nationality, color or religion they are. This is about keeping wages low. This is what it is always about. Cost and profit are what corporations do, they have no concept of anything else.

No more H1Bs, slavery was abolished a long time ago. If corporations truly cannot find qualified citizens (and I think they define that as capabilities/$), then I would allow them to sponsor a certain number of people for green cards. If avg. wages dropped the next year, I would not allow them to sponsor any at all. Then I would say anyone here on H1B may either apply for a green card, or serve the rest of his sentence and return home, but there would be no more H1Bs.

If this is truly about labor shortage, this process would work fine. But we know there's plenty of people out there who can do the job who are under/un-employed.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[irenaeous]

You are completely correct. But I hope you understand that the H-1B scam does not do this. H-1B workers are not immigrants. The H-1B program is badly abused to the determent of American workers. Slashdot has covered this before.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[Cyberax]

That depends. I'm applying for a H1B (after years of working with the US companies remotely) and I'm going to be in the top tax bracket. I'm not going to undercut anybody on salary, obviously.

US has always attracted people from all over the world, and that has always been a great advantage for the US economy. Our startup (that has been recently bought by a large company) consists of 6 people: 2 Russians, 1 Israeli, 1 Finnish, 1 Indian and one US-born person, I think we can speak about 10 languages in total. Making immigration more complex by cutting the H1B would just drive a lot of labor to other countries.

It would be really great if H1B included the requirement for a minimal salary at least 1.5 times more than the "prevailing wage" crap that exists right now.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[JoeSchmoe999]

I like that idea, hey there must be a shortage of "C" level executives since they make so much, lets H-1B a bunch of them in from 3rd world companies. We should be able to drop the median CEO salary from ~500 times the average employee to ~50 times the average employee.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[Vicarius]

I worked under H1B and have switched several employers over time - it is doable, but it is not as easy as you think. If you find another employer before you are fired, and if that employer agrees to file the paperwork for H1B, then yes, you can "easily" switch jobs. I was working as a contractor for a company that wanted to hire me directly and even made me an offer, but it was too bad for them, since neither they nor their lawyer knew what to do and I ended up going somewhere else.

Also, you have 10 days to get out of the country after you are fired. However, these 10 days will still be counted as a gap in your legal status and in most cases you will have to leave the country to get a new H1B, i.e. you will be a the mercy of the immigration officer in your own country and even then officer at the border can refuse you the entry w/o an explanation.

As a Green Card holder or a Citizen, you can go to your boss and say "give me a raise or I quit", but as an H1B worker you are pretty much stuck with whatever pay was given to you. There are also legal tricks to make sure that you don't get the salary that company promised the government they will pay you.

After a while H1B holder would want to get a Green Card, but that is a long process that requires you to stick with your employer once documents are submitted. This creates another opportunity for employers to impose their will on you.

Current laws help companies to find cheaper labor at expense of Americans. Instead of raising caps, they should change laws, so that it is more costly to hire H1B workers, i.e. tax companies for each and every H1B and if they really need these workers they will have no problem paying the tax.

Re:negatory, cut them back, hard

[starless]

Coming to the US with a green card is very difficult. I know of nobody who did that where I work (federal government science lab).
I have a PhD in physics, I came to the US on an H1B visa (as did many of my colleagues).
Then, after several years, I got a green card, then a few years after that I became a US citizen.
That path (H1B -> green card -> citizen) has been followed by very many of my scientist and engineer colleagues.
I'd like to think that we make a strong contribution to the US scientifically, economically, and culturally.

Legislators are so stupid...

[superdave80]

But the cap would be allowed to rise automatically with demand...

Um, that is the exact opposite of a 'cap'.

Why not just increase legal immigration?

[RyanFenton]

Importing people who will be automatically put into a process of exporting if they lose their job always seemed more than a bit cruel to me.

The effect of H1b has been to flood the market with fake job offers (intended to find no one available), increase the desperation of the average job seeker (where it doesn't lower wages directly, it has other effects), and to shift the job market gradually overseas as intimate knowledge of US business is shifted to people who aren't allowed to remain in the US market.

It's a mixed result - but mostly negative for the US at large.

Why not just allow more immigrants for technical fields? That way, they can start companies here, they don't have to live in such fear while working, and can pay socially beneficial taxes when they do (statistically) reach the higher incomes they are bound to reach.

Passing laws just to increase profit margins of companies at the expense of workers seems highly corrupt/inefficient. We're a nation of immigrants - we shouldn't shy away from making the nation stronger with citizens - and we've had huge problems with, um, drawing distinctions about labor variants of citizens in the past.

Ryan Fenton

Bad for future generations

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same as with outsourcing - it enriches companies and short-sells Americans. Expanded H1B program would make unappealing to invest in education in America. There would be no more need to invest in future generations if company could get workers you need w/o spending any money. In addition H1B workforce's living expenses are lower than of American workers which in turn depresses salaries of American workers.

For example, right now my friends company is paying 50% of her expenses to finish her MBA, it costs them $20k. If company could import someone they would be net ~$20k profit (maybe more if they can pay less for the same job) and my friend would be either unemployed or less educated.