Slashdot Mirror


North Korea's Prison Camps Are Now On Google Maps

pigrabbitbear writes "It's been nearly a decade since Shin Dong-hyuk, an ex-prisoner of North Korea's Camp 14, crawled over the electrocuted body of a friend lying dead on a fence, a boundary he was born inside of and lived within for 23 years. He made his way across the Chinese border on foot and was granted political asylum and citizenship in Seoul. Now, thanks to updated Google maps of the region, you can actually (if somewhat loosely) retrace the steps of his incredible escape. Through its Map Maker program, which crowdsources cartographic info, Google has published finer details of some North Korean roads. More notably, it has included shaded-in locations of the country's notorious prison camps. The data has flowed in from a few different sources, including defected North Korean expats now living in Seoul. Geographically-minded tourists and visitors of North Korea have weighed in, and historic map data from pre-partitioned Korea into has also been helpful. (Google maintains that the recent trip to Pyongyang by CEO Eric Schmidt had nothing to do with this project.)"

159 comments

  1. Old News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This has been on the iOS platforms since the last update. I asked Siri for riving direction to Sam's Hamburger shack and ended up in a NK concentration camp. Kinda hard to explain to Lil Un, but after a few months I was let go.

    1. Re:Old News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your story is coolest story, bra-san.

    2. Re:Old News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google's update isn't even all that good. I mean, no Street View of the joint? SAVAGES!

    3. Re:Old News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure they let you go, or did they use your iPhone when moving you to a different camp?

  2. So who wants to go visit? by alen · · Score: 1

    I mean I always read about westerners trying to sneak into the country
    Must be the awesome there

    1. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are merely a visitor. I was born in it. Moulded by it...

    2. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be the awesome there

      Free health care, so it's an improvement anyhow.

    3. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Performed by Kim Jong un himself!

    4. Re:So who wants to go visit? by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Informative

      I mean I always read about westerners trying to sneak into the country.

      I can recall only a couple of cranks in recent years who tried to sneak in for missionary purposes or whatever. However, tourism in North Korea is a pretty ordinary thing, as much as Americans (who would have some difficult obtaining a visa) think it's somehow impenetrable. You fly in from China, are assigned to a group with a minder, and you get a tour of various impressive Communist sites and the North Korea side of the DMZ. You don't get to freely move about, but visiting North Korea holds some attraction for those who want to see the bizarre cult of personality state that it is before it (hopefully) disappears forever. There are myriad blogs on the web detailing people's trips.

    5. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He once removed a kidney of mine without using surgical equipment.... three times!

    6. Re:So who wants to go visit? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I gather there is one church that sends up balloons from south korea, each carrying a bible, designed to deflate and land in the north.

    7. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      He once removed a kidney of mine without using surgical equipment.... three times!

      Fortunately there are no germs in NK.

    8. Re:So who wants to go visit? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 2

      A great trip report is the Google Talk by Siegfried S. Hecker, nuclear scientist (Los Alamos) and advises the US government on the nuclear proliferation w.r.t. North Korea. And on one of the last trips, they proudly show him what they have.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    9. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      You are merely a visitor. I was born in it. Moulded by it...

      You are merely a moron, I was born it. Moulded by it...

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    10. Re:So who wants to go visit? by isorox · · Score: 1

      I mean I always read about westerners trying to sneak into the country.

      I can recall only a couple of cranks in recent years who tried to sneak in for missionary purposes or whatever. However, tourism in North Korea is a pretty ordinary thing, as much as Americans (who would have some difficult obtaining a visa) think it's somehow impenetrable. You fly in from China, are assigned to a group with a minder, and you get a tour of various impressive Communist sites and the North Korea side of the DMZ. You don't get to freely move about, but visiting North Korea holds some attraction for those who want to see the bizarre cult of personality state that it is before it (hopefully) disappears forever. There are myriad blogs on the web detailing people's trips.

      There are some more unique ways in. I read a blog about some Austrians that went in via train. NK were not expecting that!

      There are more difficult places to go to for those that want the been-there-done-that stamp. Pitcairn Island, French southern and Antarctic lands from a remoteness perspective. From a permit perspective, the gaza strip (as a tourist), and Kashmir I think is off limits too. Not sure how easy Rast Timor is to get to at the moment, or the Tamil part of sri lanka.

    11. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Indian side of Kashmir anyone can visit, all you need is the regular Indian tourist visa.
      East Timor is also open. You can fly into Dili and get a visa on arrival for many nationalities.

    12. Re:So who wants to go visit? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      There are some awesome sights there.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHMSGQwLPrA

    13. Re:So who wants to go visit? by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      Talking of cults of personality... What is it with worship of this Jesus guy that's been dead 2000 years.

    14. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are airplane spotters who actively seek the tours on Air Koryo specifically because they use old Tu- and Il- equipment. I think it holds the same appeal as visiting Cuba to see old cars kept still running.

    15. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's excellent. They can always use more toilet paper over there.

    16. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kashmir isn't off limits . Sure, the borders are off limits but you can definitely visit the valley. Tourism is actually booming. And understand, the valley is only 1/4 of the entire state and there are no problems in the other 3 parts.

    17. Re:So who wants to go visit? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      afaik anyone can use the train route to go in as a tourist into NK.
      it's just americans who can't.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    18. Re:So who wants to go visit? by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, China is the back door to North Korea just like Mexico is the back door to Cuba. Though I don't personally know anyone that has gone to North Korea, I know personally and have met several Americans that have gone to Cuba through Mexico, many for the diving, which is supposed to be some of the best in the world, despite the fact that under the Helms-Burton act this is a felony (I am fairly sure, as the law is vague and tourism can easily be interpreted as "doing business with Cuba"). What I find funny is Mexico passed a counter-law specifically in response to Helms-Burton that makes it against the law to not allow doing business in a third country. Specifically, that means they can provide tourism and trade cigars and such for Americans.

  3. Schmidt has been converted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He is now a Google Maps robot. It's really pretty ingenious. The only way to access this information was as a high-level person, so Google had no other choice.

  4. OpenStreetMap has better maps of North Korea by SWroclawski · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you look at OpenStreetMap's maps of North Korea in comparison to Google, you see that the OSM maps are of much higher quality, as well as being Free (unlike Google MapMaker):

    http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?mt0=mapnik&mt1=googlemap&lon=125.7375&lat=39.03865&zoom=12

    1. Re:OpenStreetMap has better maps of North Korea by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Well - it has more detail. A map's quality is measured by its accuracy, and how much information it conveys. I can't speak to the accuracy of either map, but the Google map is definitely a lot easier to understand - or at least, I can make a lot of implicit assumptions about the lay of the land from the map. Without memorizing what colors correspond to what, the Openmap is a lot harder to understand.

      Again, a lot rests on the accuracy of the map (both objectively and what I can implicitly deduce). But purely from an organizational perspective, Google Maps is much better. And either one is better than bing, which is just empty.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:OpenStreetMap has better maps of North Korea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But purely from an organizational perspective, Google Maps is much better.

      A serious question here - in what sense is it "much better"?

      OpenStreetMap is just a big pile of data that anyone can use. If you're an American and prefer the road colours that you're more familiar with, you might prefer this rendering of the data instead:

      http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.0175&lon=125.7623&zoom=14&layers=Q

      And of course you've got the ability (if not necessarily the inclination) to create a map of North Korea showing whatever data you want in whatever colour you want.

    3. Re:OpenStreetMap has better maps of North Korea by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      They seem to have - for the most part - exactly the same information. It's just that Google's plotting scheme is focussed on readability (e.g. all roads are the same colour, you have to use labels to distinguish types) whereas OSM is more like your classic Ordanance Survey map. Drag the comparison over to London and you'll see that the same apparent difference in detail applies.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    4. Re:OpenStreetMap has better maps of North Korea by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Here's the same comparison centred over London. It's clearly a data presentation issue, and not a data issue.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  5. Conversely... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    (Google maintains that the recent trip to Pyongyang by CEO Eric Schmidt had nothing to do with this project.)"

    North Korea maintains that this project has nothing to do with their ongoing development of nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles that can reach Mountain View, CA.

    1. Re:Conversely... by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Kim Jong Il is dead. Kim Jong Un studied in Europe. Schmidt and daughter go to NK... That nuclear buzz is all a front, he still has to show the Establishment he behaves . But give him more time, and KJU will become the new South-East Gorbachev. Two years maybe.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    2. Re:Conversely... by Creepy · · Score: 1

      That would be true if Kim Jong Un were actually in power rather than a figurehead for the ruling party, which is what I suspect he is. There already have been indications that if he doesn't toe the line, he will be ousted by the party.

  6. Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by futhermocker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Seems to be a pretty cool resort
    http://goo.gl/maps/bVK4C

    --
    KERNEL PANIC -SIGFAULT AT ADDRESS #51A54D07
    1. Re:Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by mcgrew · · Score: 0

      Wow, a username like "futhermocker" and a shortened URL? The mods are sure brave today! Is that goatse they found so funny? Spam site? Someone wanting to drop a virus? No way I'm clicking.that link, what's the REAL url? This isn't twitter, please stop shortening URLs. To link a site, do this: <a href="goatsemalwareuglysister.xxx">really cool pictures of a supermodel </a> so everyone will know it's safe.

      Twit. With a six digit URL you should know better.

    2. Re:Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wow, if only there was a URL shortener service that Google ran directly, so you could assure yourself by the URL that it certainly redirected to Google Maps and not a youtube video of a shitty 80's pop song or a man's distended anus or something. They could even use Greenland's country code to make it a nice pun, something like "goo.gl/maps", for example.

    3. Re:Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    4. Re:Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      With a 5 digit URL you should be old enough to count digits properly.

    5. Re:Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, a username like "futhermocker" and a shortened URL? The mods are sure brave today! Is that goatse they found so funny? Spam site? Someone wanting to drop a virus? No way I'm clicking.that link, what's the REAL url? This isn't twitter, please stop shortening URLs. To link a site, do this: <a href="goatsemalwareuglysister.xxx">really cool pictures of a supermodel </a> so everyone will know it's safe.

      Twit. With a six digit URL you should know better.

      You could also do a pre-check on short URL's with wget or use http://checkshorturl.com/ if you are worried about getting rickrolled or goatsed.

    6. Re:Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Is there a reason you and so many other others use goo.gl URL shorteners? The reason I ask is that there is no way for me to know what is at the other end of it and even if I could see what was at the other end of it, the mandatory filter that I sit behind blocks it anyways. It is not like electrons are in short supply or that clicking a 500 character link is any more tedious than clicking a 5 character link; although I supposed it could be argued that if you are moving your mouse to highlight a URL you have to move your mouse further... but then the counter-argument to that is that you have to go to goo.gl to set up the shortened URL which is more work anyways.

      Thanks for nothing. :(

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  7. WHY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why were they not on before? I was just looking at NK last weak and found in no time the buildings where NK and SK face each other ! And I couldent find that place after looking for 30 min a year ago !

    1. Re:WHY by icebike · · Score: 1

      Why were they not on before? I was just looking at NK last weak and found in no time the buildings where NK and SK face each other ! And I couldent find that place after looking for 30 min a year ago !

      They face each other with guard towers all along their border. There is no ONE place.
      You were probably looking for the famous place where peace talks were/are held. see: http://goo.gl/maps/KTRtC

      However, if you look along the border there are dozens of places where there are military establishments on either side
      of the DMZ. Many of these face each other. They are usually on every high hill,

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  8. Shin's google tech talk (2008) by tick-tock-atona · · Score: 1
  9. no it's same type of camps the jews where put it by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 0

    no it's same type of camps the jews where put it

  10. Old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Very old : video

  11. You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The FEMA death camps that have been set up to imprison free and liberated Americans as Obama's Atheistic Muslim Communist Fascism is implemented in this country.

    The abortion-mill brothels will also not be shown. Because Google is in it on it, as is NASA, SpaceX, and Boeing. It's all part of the conspiracy with the Reverse Vampires and Doctor Evil.

    1. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Started out troll/whackjob, but ramped up to over-the-top silliness. Well-played, sir or madam. Well-played.

    2. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just what AIG wants you to think.

    3. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      The FEMA death camps that have been set up to imprison free and liberated Americans as Obama's Atheistic Muslim Communist Fascism is implemented in this country.

      The abortion-mill brothels will also not be shown. Because Google is in it on it, as is NASA, SpaceX, and Boeing. It's all part of the conspiracy with the Reverse Vampires and Doctor Evil.

      Can't tell if troll or if Alex Jones forgot his password.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    4. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It's a troll (or an incredibly stupid attempt at humor) and whoever modded it "funny" is a dork (and yes, I said that on purpose, waste your points modding me down, idiot, so you don't have the points to mod idiocy up).

      BTW, the troll wasn't funny but I got a chuckle out of your unmodded comment. I wonder why moderation is so abysmal today, I've seen a "make shitloads of money on the internet" spam twice today, neither one modded down. And they mod that garbage UP!

      Did I get on 4chan or reddit by mistake?

    5. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At what point did the ramping up occur?

    6. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      My comment is modded now, but it's "Funny" which is nothing but a signal to other mods to downmod. This should result in a net zero to karma, but doesn't. Whatever. The whole thing is a broken joke, as evidenced by some of the spam that has gone unmodded. The only thing I'll say in defense is that perhaps as a group, people ARE focusing more on upmods than downmods. Was it some of that 'work from home' crap? I generally don't waste points on it. It's obvious and not particularly offensive.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    7. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      The juxtaposition of your complaint and your tagline is something I find incredibly humorous. Lighten up, pal.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    8. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      U mad, bro?

    9. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MonkeyRotica, is that you?!

    10. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, its just watered down Fox news

    11. Re:You know what's not on Google Maps? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      They've changed it. Funny used to be karma-neutral, but no longer. It surprised me when I saw the change to the faq. Like metamoderation, the old way was much better.

  12. One Day... by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:One Day... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

      The United States didn't want to get involved in the Germany / Jew issue, either.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    2. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and sticking our nose in the affairs of the Middle East has done so well for us...

    3. Re:One Day... by Hentes · · Score: 2

      The entire civilized world can't do much while China is backing them. Sad as it is, it's not worth a nuclear war.

    4. Re:One Day... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      And what would you do about it? Blowing the government up would be easy, but then you have a flood of refugees as the country implodes - local warlords rise to power, starvation, and a general humanitarian disaster. Or you could invade but - as Iraq and Afganistan show - the locals won't be happy. There's a cult of personality at play, and invaders are never welcomed even if they are trying to act in the best interests of the invaded. So then you have a simmering conflict that goes on for years, costing trillions of dollars, and additionally earning you serious diplomatic troubles - because you can't very well do business with all the other oppressive governments in the world if they all worry they'll be next on the list.

      There is no quick solution for North Korea. The best you can do is ignore it, occasionally intervene to make sure they don't get nuclear weapons, and hope that given enough time some leader will come to power who desires to break the isolation.

    5. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame

      No, actually, it won't. North Korea isn't doing much that is terribly offensive. There are no rich beyond the leadership, so income disparity is a solved problem. There is little exploitation of the environment; at night N. Korea is a void of darkness surrounded by brightly lit planet wrecking industrial states. There are no fat N. Koreans aside from Kim, so obesity is completely cured, and no one pays for health care.

      The whole gulag thing is just an aberration. The fact that the same aberration emerges in every statist paradise is pure coincidence and entirely forgivable. Free health care, after all.

      There will be no collective shame. Instead, the world will fret over each morsel of unfairness that develops as the able exploit whatever opportunities emerge. The world will wring it's collective hands when western and asian corporations make profits from N. Korean resources.

      That will be about all the introspection we'll indulge about N. Korea.

    6. Re:One Day... by synir · · Score: 1

      Allowed? They have nuclear weapons and they are crazy. I obviously agree about the vile oppression taking place but there's only so much that can be done.

    7. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This account of Soon Ok Lee before the US Senate Judiciary Committee is one of the most chilling things I've ever read:
      http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=4f1e0899533f7680e78d03281fe18baf&wit_id=4f1e0899533f7680e78d03281fe18baf-2-1

      Some say the world would have acted against Hitler sooner if they knew of the concentration and death camps, but what that transcript describes I don't see as being materially different. The problem of course is that any military provocation would have dire consequences for Seoul.

    8. Re:One Day... by houghi · · Score: 1

      When the US falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

      First I thought it would be funny to do the above and just write "Fixed that for you" and then I started to think.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    9. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but the US is not the world's policeman. If there is mass murder, it does not automatically mean that the US has to intervene. If the President had a magic stick that automatically stopped the mass killings without other collateral killings and geopolitical destabilization, then you could make that argument. But the President doesn't have that magic stick, so the benefits and dangers of any type of intervention need to be carefully weighed.

    10. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

      No, it won't. It will point its fingers at somebody, somewhere and demand to know why they didn't do anything about it. Courts and tribunals will bring the case to trial, slap them on the wrist, and the world will rest easy knowing that justice has finally been done.

    11. Re:One Day... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1
    12. Re:One Day... by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      as opposed to a single warlord, starvation and a humanitarian disaster?

    13. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aye, this is one of those hard truths that the bleeding hearts don't like to hear. We can't simply go open up a country like that with a crowbar and expect sunshine and rainbows. For all of our strength and power, we can't just haul a nation into the democratic first-world fold of "the west". It takes time, willingness, and slow gradual change. And generations.

      I think everyone needs to remember the 300,000 people that DIED in the unrestrained sectarian violence during the Iraq occupation. Saddam may have been an evil war-criminal. But he kept that pot from boiling over. And that's not a clusterfuck the USA can simply walk away from. Nor can it simply fix it. The animosity from that period will linger and we'll have to accept the repercussions. Blowback is a bitch.

    14. Re:One Day... by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      there's also the merit of status quo, which is part of why nothing is being done about it.

      that is, many north koreans know full well that if the curtain was to come down they would in jail and history books - if they were lucky, if unlucky they'd be executed(and because that's the way they roll in NK that's probably what they believe would happen to them). this is not just one or two north koreans but tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, who would need to be prosecuted. so it is believed that if the curtain starts coming down they might try to dispose of the problem by making the camps disappear(by killing everyone, maybe even the staff) rather than face the music.

      that's part of the tragedy of the situation, that it's gone so long in such massive scale that it's impossible to just wind it down bit by bit. so opening north korea bit by bit like ussr was opened isn't going to happen(harshest ussr gulags, relocations and policies had been closed for couple of decades prior to winding down of the ussr).

      just removing the government and letting it implode might be the best thing really - north koreans (like ussr citizens were) are already accustomed to keeping care of themselves, the army already taxes people like warlords and street thugs would so that wouldn't change one bit either.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    15. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure that no one except the few rulers in N.Korea wanted this situation to exist. It seems to be an almost exact copy of the USSR when Stalin was in power. The size of these camps in N. Korea is apparently huge. What is disgusting is that the leaders of the communist party in N. Korea wanted this depravity to exist. What were and/or why were they thinking?

    16. Re:One Day... by asmkm22 · · Score: 0

      The civilized world won't do shit, much less "hang its head in shame." Humans are not compassionate creatures, by nature, except the immediate few we care about.

    17. Re:One Day... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed,

      Here is a start - from the only person known to have been born in and escape from one of these prison camps.

      the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

      I agree. And it isn't just a case of china backing them or seoul being vulnerable. Why aren't we pushing for a full peace treaty - like we've ended every other official war - instead of just an armistice? The whole "the war is not over" thing is the main pillar of NK's pathology. I'm not so naive as to believe a peace treaty would magically make things all lovey-dovey. But it would be progress that does not require military force.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    18. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it OK to stop abominations, or is "imperialistic conquest"? Make up your mind, because I'm sick and damn tired of getting beaten up for intervening and then being castigated for *not* intervening.

    19. Re:One Day... by TheSync · · Score: 1

      the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

      NK is a cult. I'm not sure how you can deprogram an entire country. It is true that dissenters are dealt with harshly, but most people in NK never dissent, not out of fear of punishment, but mainly because they buy into the regime's religion.

      There were plenty of "true believers" in the USSR as well.

    20. Re:One Day... by dtjohnson · · Score: 1

      ...the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to

      No shame. North Korea is propped up by China. Unless and until China changes its mind about supporting North Korea, there is nothing that the 'civilized world' can do that will make the situation any better...except, perhaps...buying less of the 'Made in China' stuff. Moreover, the only thing that China cares about right now is flexing its muscles to take over a couple of small islands that Japan has owned for the last couple of centuries.

    21. Re:One Day... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Humans are not compassionate creatures, by nature, except the immediate few we care about.HUMANS are.

    22. Re:One Day... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Informative

      What is disgusting is that the leaders of the communist party in N. Korea wanted this depravity to exist. What were and/or why were they thinking?

      "As long as I get to be boss, fuck it."
      (or something like that)

    23. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember that when the cops explain why they had to finish the coffee and donuts while YOU were getting PITA.

    24. Re:One Day... by asmkm22 · · Score: 1

      Humans are not compassionate creatures, by nature, except the immediate few we care about.HUMANS are.

      Sorry, but we didn't rise to the top of the food chain through compassion.

    25. Re:One Day... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      How exactly do you intend to stop it? There's not any real good way.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    26. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't strain anything.

    27. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as opposed to a single warlord, starvation and a humanitarian disaster?

      Bad as North Korea is, it would be worse for several at least several years if the government was removed by force. Iraq provides an instructive example.

      Saying "option X is terrible" is not a strong argument for option Y. Sometimes all the options stink, and the least terrible of many terrible options is the best we can do.

    28. Re:One Day... by khallow · · Score: 1

      There are no rich beyond the leadership, so income disparity is a solved problem.

      In other words, income disparity is about as unsolved as it can get and still have a living underclass.

    29. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh of course, instead the US should go and "nuke those slanty gook leftists" or whatever the scare words of the year are.

    30. Re:One Day... by Marxdot · · Score: 1

      No-one's picking on you.

    31. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And an overwhelming quantity of "true believers" in the US in the present day, provided there's not "a nigger socialist fascist communist Marxist" (sic) in the White House

    32. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gosh! there are even "Americans", "Chistians", "Muslims" Any kool-aid is easy to sell to large groups.

    33. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When USA falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

      FTFY

      Having been exposed to too many eventually proven false western propaganda, one has to be skeptical about anything the crying wolf west promulgate through its stooge the main stream media.
      Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on....

      If we assume this individual is actually legit, yeah it's that deep the extent of the deception (witness the Kuwait? woman who testified, tears streaming down face, about Iraqi soldiers killing babies in incubators back in gulf war 1; eventually debunked as some western shill, but this aspect was barely covered by any of the western main stream media), too many loose ends don't add up.
      The supposed starving border guard when this escapee had no problems collecting a real bounty to carry on his person for bribing.
      Last time I checked, every NK military types seemed quite well cared for, thank you very much.
      Especially a border guard, which one presume would be units that actually see continuous action.
      And how did this guy "pretending to be a soldier" in effectively the DMZ to the northern border of the country.
      I like to see this guy "pretending to be a soldier" in the southern DMZ. He seems real good at this.

      It's not like any defector is automatically the paragon of objective impartial analysis, especially considering being antagonistic about a thorn in the side of the west like North Korea is exponentially profitable for the said defector.

    34. Re:One Day... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      so it is believed that if the curtain starts coming down they might try to dispose of the problem by making the camps disappear(by killing everyone, maybe even the staff) rather than face the music.

      That worked out real well for the surviving Nazis, I hear.

      in any case, some of you may have noticed that China is no longer giving carte-blanche to the DPRK:

      In response to UN Security Council Resolution 2087 which was approved on Wednesday [2013-01-23, China time], North Korea vowed that it will carry out a "high-level" nuclear test. This may not be mere angry words, because South Korea says preparation for North Korea's new nuclear test is already in progress.

      Wednesday's UN resolution condemned North Korea's rocket launch in December and expanded existing sanctions. After putting a lot of effort into amendments for the draft resolution, China also voted for it.

      It seems that North Korea does not appreciate China's efforts. It criticized China without explicitly naming it in its statement yesterday [2013-01-24]: "Those big countries, which are obliged to take the lead in building a fair world order, are abandoning without hesitation even elementary principles, under the influence of the US' arbitrary and high-handed practices, and failing to come to their senses."

      China has a dilemma: We are further away from the goal of denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula and there's no possible way for us to search for a diplomatic balance between North Korea and South Korea, Japan and the US.

      China should be more relaxed and reduce our expectations on the effect of our strategies toward the peninsula. We should have a pragmatic attitude to deal with the problems and pursue the optimal ratio between our investment of resources and strategic gains.

      China can neither take one side of the peninsula conflict like the US and Japan nor dream of staying aloof. We should readily accept that China is involved and may offend one side or both sides.

      China's role and position are clear when discussing North Korea issue in the UN Security Council. If North Korea engages in further nuclear tests, China will not hesitate to reduce its assistance to North Korea. ...

      China hopes for a stable peninsula, but it's not the end of the world if there's trouble there. This should be the baseline of China's position.

      Translation: "We're starting to figure out that there's precious little advantage to backing up NK much longer, and Kim3 is kidding himself if he thinks otherwise."

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    35. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't through being individualist bastards either.
      Cooperation played a big role in that.

    36. Re: One Day... by Ricwot · · Score: 1

      This is the country in which people dig up their loved ones and murder their children so that there is something to eat. A place where the populace have been starving to death since 1994. A country which wishes to destroy one of the largest and most advanced cities ever built, then ethnically cleanse their neighbour and soon may have the means to do it. A small country the UN could feed with pocket change.

      This could be fixed rather easily as soon as china is on board.

    37. Re:One Day... by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      You've bought into North Korea's myth of obscurity: the civilised world is in fact acutely aware of the state of the country and it's an ongoing political debate as to what can be done about it. Sanctions only impose greater hardship on the populace and the only thing a war would be guaranteed to do is turn an oppressed population into a refugee one. Worst case scenario, I worry that it would turn into a massacre.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    38. Re:One Day... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The entire civilized world can't do much while China is backing them. Sad as it is, it's not worth a nuclear war.

      The entire civilized world can't do much while they are backing China. There, fixed that for you.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    39. Re:One Day... by MTEK · · Score: 1

      If there's one thing I could communicate to the inhabitants of these modern-day concentration camps, it would be this: "suck it up; no one is coming to help you". Part of me wonders if folks in the U.S. administration and abroad, at least subconsciously, hope NK develops the bomb including a credible delivery mechanism. Politically, it's an acceptable excuse to do absolutely nothing. I suppose all those first-hand accounts I heard from holocaust survivors were all for naught. Oh well. Sucks to be you, indeed.

    40. Re:One Day... by Creepy · · Score: 1

      North Korea's conditions for a peace treaty would be this
      1) South Korea surrenders all of its territory
      2) The new Korea is allowed to nuke Japan in retaliation for occupation
      3) If America intervenes in the nuking of Japan, they agree to 5 random cities getting nuked in retaliation for each Korean death

    41. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Long live the DPRK under the banner of Songun in the second centenary of Kimjongilism, kimilsongism and kimjongunism.

    42. Re: One Day... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      It would do wonders to remove the fallacy from what you said since there is some truth in it. I'd not be so quick to blame China. China uses the country just like the US uses the country. Both of us use NK to prop up our military industries. Putting China in as the only spoke in the wheel is rather disingenuous. Lots of countries prey on NK. Those same Governments benefit from turmoil in any smaller country *cough Afghanistan* *caugh Congo* *caugh Kenya*, and the list of coughs could obviously get rather long rather quickly so I'll stop there. I'm sure you get the point, or need to do a bit of homework.

      You are correct, the UN could feed them with change. Many nations have sent food in to NK just to have it rot before it found a peasant's mouth. It's not like NK lets you open up food stands or drop food where you want. NK has to distribute the food for political reasons. Lets be candid here: If the UN was allowed to distribute they would have to have access to all of NK. This would obviously open up Pandora's box. No Government, even the UN, want's that to happen. People like you might, sure.. but you are not in a representative government. Don't bullshit yourself about that statement either.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    43. Re:One Day... by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but the US is not the world's policeman.

      Then why does the US constantly try to force it's laws onto every other nation?

      The only thing protecting North Korea is lack of torrenting, due to lack of internet.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    44. Re:One Day... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Actually, we did. Without empathy we probably would have become extinct before agriculture came about. They say that Neanderthals were more intelligent than early Homo Sapiens, and I suspect that Neanderthals became extinct because we had more empathy than them. A succinct line from "Pale Rider": "A man alone is easy prey." Try killing a saber toothed tiger by yourself with nothing more than a spear -- a spear invented by someone else.

    45. Re:One Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They say that Neanderthals were more intelligent than early Homo Sapiens, and I suspect that Neanderthals became extinct because we had more empathy than them.

      I suspect the opposite. I suspect THEY had more empathy. Neanderthals kept to themselves in small groups (smaller groups than humans, but they were social creatures), but they rarely ventured outside their own territories to attack others. They already were the apex animal, why venture out of it?

      Humans, however, seem to enjoy seeking new areas to conquer and become the apex animal in those areas.

      I suspect Neanderthals, just like the Dodo bird or the passenger pigeons, were wiped out because of interaction with humans.

  13. Re:no it's same type of camps the jews where put i by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The jews didn't have to pay for health care while in camp either.

  14. Does iOS have reviews? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does iOS have reviews? Google does, and I think this place looks better than a lot of the places the Lonely Planet recommends in that neighborhood...

    1. Re:Does iOS have reviews? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      This prison camp is offensive to every civilized person, a place of unbelievable hardship and inhumanity. On the plus side, it has a very small carbon footprint and pretty much everything is recycled.

      On the other hand, the reviews look like written by green Apple hipsters.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  15. A longer version of his story by Renevith · · Score: 2

    I followed the links through to a Guardian review of the book about Shin, only to find "This content has been removed as our copyright has expired." WTF?

    Fortunately, the Wayback Machine is a bit more sane and has the full story: http://web.archive.org/web/20120320021739/http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/16/escape-north-korea-prison-camp

    1. Re:A longer version of his story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I just read his story, good lord, what a hellish existence. I will never complain about my life again.

      “By the way,” Shin asked, “where is Pyongyang?”

      Shin’s question stunned Park. He explained that Pyongyang, located about 50 miles south of Camp 14, was the capital of North Korea, the city where the country’s powerful people lived. Park said he had grown up there, studying in East Germany and the Soviet Union. After returning home, he had become chief of a taekwondo training centre. Park explained what life was like outside Camp 14. He told Shin about money, television, computers and mobile phones. He explained that the world was round.

      Much of what Park talked about was difficult for Shin to understand, believe or care about. What delighted him – what he kept begging for – were stories about eating. Park described chicken, pork and beef in China, Hong Kong, Germany, England and the former Soviet Union. Intoxicated, Shin made perhaps the first free decision of his life. He chose not to snitch.

      Park’s stories became an addiction but when he burst into song one night, Shin was alarmed, afraid a foreman might hear.

      “Stop at once,” Shin told him.

      Shin had never sung a song. His only exposure to music had been on the farm, when trucks with loudspeakers played military marching music. To Shin, singing seemed unnatural and insanely risky.

  16. ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its ironic the timing of this since Schmidt just traveled there.

    1. Re:ironic by icebike · · Score: 1

      Well, he couldn't very well publicize this before his visit could he. Presumably he wanted to come back some time soon.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  17. Re:no it's same type of camps the jews where put i by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, a US invention, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp#Concentration_camp

  18. and sold it for X5 the cost of takeing out with yo by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    and sold it for X5 the cost of taking out with you getting $0 out of it.

  19. Doesn't it bother anyone else that... by m1ss1ontomars2k4 · · Score: 2

    The maps for China don't actually align to the satellite image? The maps are reasonably accurate, but they're off by a few miles or so, it looks like. But then the border lines up with the satellite image, and the maps for North Korea, right across the border, line up perfectly with the satellite image. Is it just me? Am I seeing things?

    Here's a portion of the border which demonstrates the problem: http://goo.gl/maps/ObMDJ

    1. Re:Doesn't it bother anyone else that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems to work fine for me. Please try erasing your web cache and, if the problem persists, send a screenshot and details of the problem to Google.

    2. Re:Doesn't it bother anyone else that... by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      I tried it in chrome, and if you click the map/satellite icon to toggle back and forth, the river quite clearly moves back and forth by about the width of the river. Its easier to see the problem if you go west a tiny bit from China's side of the border where there's visible roads and buildings on the satellite image and the map image shows the same roads but farther east. The landmass on the NK side of the line looks more like a sandbar than an island so its probably less defined at high tide (the map version is a lot smaller than the satellite version, especially on the south side of the island.

      The country border marking lines up nicely with the canals dug in the satellite map and doesn't move between the two maps (the canals themselves move), so I'm thinking that the "map" version is off.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  20. Not impressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll be impressed when I can see the prisoners waving at the StreetView truck...

  21. Revealed? by gatfirls · · Score: 1

    It's well and widely known the atrocities that go on there. From reports, things that make saddams rape rooms look like candyland. Of course like the shameful stupid nations we are, we continue to further isolate and punish the people of NK via sanctions and cock waving with its leaders. They could have ended hostilities long ago by trying to catch bees with honey instead of pouring vinegar on them and watching the people of NK pay the price. Knock out the leadership once and for all or come to the table and play nice. It's so shameful that the worlds answer has been "shame on you, no bags of rice for the poor this week" in response to decades of human rights abuses.

    1. Re:Revealed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      while helping people is nice and freeing the oppressed is noble, your understanding of the situation and how to handle it indicative of why you're an abject failure posting on slashdot and not someone who actually helps get these things done

    2. Re:Revealed? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      And ironically it is against the rules of war to withhold food for pow's.

  22. Kimjongilia by WGFCrafty · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you have netflix, I'd recommend Kimjongilia. It covers the stories of defectors, including Shin. Very well done.

    1. Re:Kimjongilia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can be found at asiandvdclub.org too.

    2. Re:Kimjongilia by Mean+Variance · · Score: 1

      I second that. Also on Netflix streaming: Walking the Line about 4 American defectors into NK (with primary focus on one).

      Then go to the North Korea travel series, done in 3 parts posted on YouTube by Vice.com (search Vice Guide to North Korea).

  23. I doubt it by 1800maxim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The civilized world has been progressively removed from reality and will be too busy chatting on Facebook, worried about latest stock market fluctuations, and getting semi-affordable gas at the pump.

    Typical response: "NK free? Yay! What movie u goin 2 see?"

  24. Missing a step? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I feel the summary is missing a step. The fellow escape across the border to China and was granted citizenship in Seoul? Is there a step missing where he transfers to South Korea, or did the author get the destination country wrong?

    1. Re:Missing a step? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      South Korea accepts North Koreans. I don’t know all of the technically details but both Koreas subscribe that there is only one Korea which is temporarily split due to civil war. Think back to East / West Germany. Similar setup.

      They have programs in place to help integrate them into society.- financial assistance, finding any relatives on the other side, cultural and job training, etc.

    2. Re:Missing a step? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      I feel the summary is missing a step. The fellow escape across the border to China and was granted citizenship in Seoul? Is there a step missing where he transfers to South Korea, or did the author get the destination country wrong?

      he spent a lot of time wandering around china. remember he didn't know that he could get to s-korea.. or that it would be worthwhile. then got to some embassy and through that to s-korea eventually.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  25. What no google streetview? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What no Google street-view? ;)

    Even more revolting about North Korean gulags are that they place multiple generations of the same family into the camps and there are even 2nd generation born inmates born in the camps for the "crimes" of their grandparents.

    How come so called "activists" such as anonymous or wiki-leaks don't target North Korea?

    1. Re:What no google streetview? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      How come so called "activists" such as anonymous or wiki-leaks don't target North Korea?

      What do you target? You have a paranoid leadership who cuts off access to the outside world coupled with one of the tightest set of economic sanctions. Cut off from within and without.

      IIRC, (posted on Slashdot about 2 years ago?) even their official country level domain hosting was being done in Spain.

    2. Re:What no google streetview? by Marxdot · · Score: 1

      How come so called "activists" such as anonymous or wiki-leaks don't target [sic] North Korea?

      http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:North_Korea

    3. Re:What no google streetview? by Enigmafan · · Score: 1

      Perhaps because NK has no internet save for a few places that are highly controlled?

  26. Re:no it's same type of camps the jews where put i by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your own link points out that the Polish possibly imprisoned people in this manner before the US; also that the term was actually coined by the British in the Boer War. And should we really go heavy on the finger pointing here? After all, the implication is that before concentration camps subjugated people were simply slaughtered en mass.

  27. Re:no it's same type of camps the jews where put i by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, but in his defense, we still claim to have invented it (like the car, etc).

  28. FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the US falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.

    FTFY

    1. Re:FTFY by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      -2, Stupid (-1 redundant + -1 overrated)

      Already done, and even the first one to come up with the idea realised how fucking silly it was.

      The US may not be perfect, but you get to eat, people are allowed to speak and move more or less freely, and most of them aren't locked up in camps.

      And I can attest personally, the US will actually let you leave if you want.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:FTFY by ibwolf · · Score: 1

      The US may not be perfect, but you get to eat, people are allowed to speak and move more or less freely, and most of them aren't locked up in camps.

      If you count prisons as 'camps' then more people (per capita) are locked up in the US than in any other country in the world (including China, North Korea or any other totalitarian state you care to name).

    3. Re:FTFY by LavouraArcaica · · Score: 1

      This.
      I don't know about other countries, but here in Brazil prisioners have a terrible treatment - and we're not a totalitarian state, we're just nuts who think criminals don't deserve anything.
      The difference is that in N. Korea the officers torture, kill and do other terrible things. Here (and in many other countries), the officers don't do anything. The prisioners itself do all the atrocities between themselves. We just dump them in dozens in places where should be only 2 or 3.

    4. Re:FTFY by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      If you count prisons as 'camps' then more people (per capita) are locked up in the US than in any other country in the world (including China, North Korea or any other totalitarian state you care to name).

      True, true. But this does not contradict what I said.

      (BTW, I should point out that I'm just playing advocatus diaboli here, as I left the States over a decade ago and do not ever plan to return there to live.)

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  29. One Thing's For Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't wait to invade now...

  30. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    1) There is no god to give out rights. Rights are discussed and agreed upon amongst people.

    2) The origin of North Korea wasn't the lack of people standing up for their rights. The origin was the partitioning of the country into to and the subsequent remote playing out of the cold war between the then world superpowers of The USSR and the USA.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with your assumed gun rights. Change the tune.

  31. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We got it karma whore. Also lol at "God"

  32. Nice life in dprk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Listen I took a deep shit (code name) in Pyongyang and it was intense. Don't fuck with that shit. Don't hate the playa hate the game

  33. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by publiclurker · · Score: 0

    Boy, you gun nuts sure are a paranoid, psychotic group, aren't you?

  34. Google = big secret hider by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google is by far the most secretive company I have ever known. There got to be something to going on between North Korean government and Eric's visit. I mean i understand Google needed to hide everything from Microsoft and Yahooo and Amazon... to grow at the very beginning. But now.... after they already became one of those giant?! Please tell us more google!

    1. Re:Google = big secret hider by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Completely ignoring the US political staff and other representatives of the US tech sector that took part in the visit, of course.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  35. Fine... ENLIST by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    When the US was backing Germany, US volunteers went to the UK to fight on the right side. Men and women who put their lives on the line for what they believed in.

    You believe in something? Then put your life on the line. Ah, thought so, life is a bit to comfortable sitting behind a computer spouting morality. Trust me, I know. It is easy to ignore the horrors of the world if they aren't happening to you.

    We will all find different excuses for it "one man can't change anything" "I have no power" "the US is not the worlds police man" "China is backing them". But it all just means "don't rock my boat".

    The simple fact is that NK could be liberated in a week IF the world wanted to. China is NOT going to risk global war over it if the US and the west flexed its muscle. Notions that it might not like the US on its border are beyond silly, the US doesn't have the resources to fight China on its own turf and with US fleets and international presence, it already HAS plenty of power close to China anyway.

    But the fact is also that it would be a brutal fight with little financial reward. No oil. Now I am not saying the west is only interested in oil but liberating NK would be a gigantic undertaking which requires lots of boats being rocked and while the world will PROBABLY make sure none of the boats tipped over, why bother when you can just sit there and ignore it?

    This is hardly the first time the world has managed to look the other way. Not even the other way, a zebra will watch an other zebra struggle and die at the hands of a lion and think itself lucky that today the Lion has been fed. The truth is that the lions would be just a dirty smear on the savannah if the herbivores put in the tiniest amount of effort (Zebra's kicks, buffalo charges, hippo bites, elephant trunk slaps have ALL killed Lions with ease) but it is easier not to.

    Right now, in your city, someone is sleeping on the street. You can put them in a shelter for less then the price of a game. Are you getting out of your chair yet? No? Me neither. I know I am a moral vacuum, do you? Don't argue, there is nobody here who can't afford to help a homeless person on Slashdot. But most don't. There are no excuses.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Fine... ENLIST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But... I am homeless.

    2. Re:Fine... ENLIST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an invasion of North Korea was attempted by the US (or any other large military power), here is what would probably happen : Without delay, the government of North Korea (or whoever the government had put in place to do this in the event that they were killed) would launch their Nukes at South Korea, (possibly) Japan, and everyone else within their grasp. The death toll would be catastrophic. The US (or whoever) would probably retaliate immediately, and Nuke North Korea killing many more, but not before China warn them not to, because they don't want a whole bunch more nuclear fallout on their doorstep. It is quite possible that this would then precipitate a larger nuclear conflict that would kill billions more.

      Taking the other approach, suppose trade sanctions were lifted. The "dear leader" would get the credit for this in the eyes of the populace, cementing his position as dictator for life. It is also likely that all economic focus would be on increasing military strength, possibly with a view to having another crack at invading South Korea. (The world tried appeasing a psychopath before WWII, and look how that turned out [Sorry Godwin]). Furthermore, that would make us all complicit in the oppression going on in NK.

      The reality is that in the current climate, the international community are doing all that can be done.

  36. Eric Schmidt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So that's what Eric Schmidt was doing there... He even brought his daughter with him to help. :)

  37. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When you think about it, they're exactly the sort of people who you really don't want to have guns.

  38. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rights are an integral part of human nature. Just as they are not predicated on any god, neither are they predicated on any show of hands. The only thing we discuss and agree upon is acknowledgement and implementation. Also, I didn't see Taco Cowboy write anything about guns. Stifling speech, press and assembly, violating the right against self-incrimination and right to a speedy trial by a jury of peers can also make a more "peaceful society." The Balkans were more peaceful under the Soviet boot than either a bit before or a bit after. Train your ear.

  39. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by pnutjam · · Score: 1

    But he only knows one tune...

  40. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is it that anyone who is pro 2nd amendment a "nut"? Your own paranoia reveals itself by your need to stereotype and disparage firearms owners, as if you, in all your wisdom, knows what's best for everyone, even battered wives and girlfriends.

    But more to the point, that poster said nothing specific about the current gun debate. For anyone knows, he's also referring to the Patriot Act and other laws of the last 10 years that have restricted US liberties, a common enough gripe on /.. I guess we're all "Freedom nuts".

  41. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by Creepy · · Score: 1

    The truth is, the rights of the people in Korea were gone long before the Soviet occupation of the north - Japan ruled Korea with an iron fist for 75 years before that, and even annexed the peninsula. Human rights were hardly a concern and they were known to torture and imprison anyone that showed any sign of dissent and forced men to do forced labor and woment into prostitution. In a way, Japan created North Korea more than the USSR ever could - all the Soviets really did was prop up the dictatorship and the Koreans took over from there with the only way of life they knew - repression.

  42. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by logjon · · Score: 0

    TIL that the Second Amendment is the only one we've watched get chipped away over the years.

    --
    The stories and info posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
    Only fools would take it as fact.
  43. Re:North Korea does serve as an example ... by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Not even a good straw man. Also, did it dawn you you that perhaps he was referring to the wording in the US Constitution and not paying homage to any theology? That's how I read it, and I didn't have to invent words not mentioned to get my interpretation.

    Fucking government shills, I'm sure you get paid well to take it up the ass.. but damn it's not worth it. They don't care when you are dying of aids man, just look around!

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  44. Ha ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's make a joke about this as long as the US books bad. LOLz