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Ask Slashdot: How Do You Handle SPF For Spam Filtering?

An anonymous reader writes "Our organization had had a decent SPF record of our own for a long time. Recently, we decided to try using SPF for filtering inbound mail. On the up side, a lot of bad mail was being caught. On the down side, it seems like there is always a 'very important' message being caught in the filter because the sender has failed to consider all mail sources in writing their record. At first, I tried to assist sending parties with correcting their records out of hope that it was isolated. This quickly started to consume far too much time. I'm learning that many have set up inaccurate but syntactically valid SPF records and forgotten about them, which is probably the worst outcome for SPF as a standard. Are you using SPF? How are you handling false positives caused by inaccurate SPF records?"

187 comments

  1. Forget about them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    If they are too stupid to set it up correctly then they don't deserve to work with you.

    1. Re:Forget about them by BradleyUffner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That works fine until the CEO misses an email from a prospective client.

    2. Re:Forget about them by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they are too stupid to set it up correctly, then they aren't the fools whom you are supposed to part with their money?!

      "Too stupid" is exactly the kind of person I'm looking for!

      It's the smart people I don't want to hear from. You know the people I'm talking about: the ones who are so smart that they don't have to work, they just program their botnet to send viagra spam and sit back and collect the money. I admire them, but they're useless to me.

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    3. Re:Forget about them by smash · · Score: 2

      Because of course SMTP administration competence of the company's (possibly hosted) email is directly proportional to competence in the field the company works in.

      Pull your head out of your arse - in the real world, businesses need to communicate.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    4. Re:Forget about them by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And meanwhile in the real world where nailing some important email because the sender was sending all his email through a local MTA because his ISP doesn't have an externally accessible MTA, your boss is right now handing you your walking papers.

      The only sane way to use SPF is to drop a spam score of an email. Outright filtering on bad or missing SPF records is just a recipe for a large number of false positives.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Forget about them by pla · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Because of course SMTP administration competence of the company's (possibly hosted) email is directly proportional to competence in the field the company works in.

      Yup, pretty much. If you walk around - alone - wearing an "i'm with stupid" t-shirt, I don't care if you make Stephen Hawking look like Forest Gump, people will steer clear of you.


      Pull your head out of your arse - in the real world, businesses need to communicate.

      Yes. Yes, they very much do. And if they don't take that function seriously enough to make sure their audience can hear them, do you really want to do business with them?

      They also need to make pay their bills - Do you also overlook your customers just "forgetting" to pay you because they have their AP system set up poorly?


      Unless, of course, your core business depends on a steady stream of "bigger idiots", in which case, just reverse the polarity of the SPFion flux.

    6. Re:Forget about them by BlueBlade · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The way I do is is that I send an NDR on rejected mail caused by bad SPF records (with some anti-flood limits). So far, as far as I know, bounced emails always eventually reached us. What happens is the person gets a NDR mail ("We have rejected your email due to bad SPF records"). The person getting the bounce forwards it to their IT dept, where it's usually taken care of rather quickly. If it's a small business without a dedicated IT staff, I'm sometimes asked to explain how this works, but usually, such companies do not have SPF records at all, which means the mail won't bounce.

      --
      Religion is the best example of mass psychosis
    7. Re:Forget about them by jht · · Score: 2

      This. SPF is fine as something you can use to tag messages and increase their filter score. If they lack a valid SPF there's a slightly higher risk it's spam. But to block based on SPF records is just goofy. It's a good idea, but nowhere near universally adopted and there's plenty of valid reasons why mail would go through a different source.

      On my own mail server, I add 1 to the scoring, with tag at 3.5 and block at 5.5. Those have worked pretty well (I use Kerio Connect, which has a Spamassassin-based system).

      --
      -- Josh Turiel
      "2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
    8. Re:Forget about them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you walk around - alone - wearing an "i'm with stupid" t-shirt, I don't care if you make Stephen Hawking look like Forest Gump, ...

      Oh come on! Forest Gump would run circles around Stephen Hawking, any day of the week!

    9. Re:Forget about them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, people would steer clear of someone who looks superficially stupid, that is a given. That isn't a defense of why you should steer clear of such a person though, especially if their skills and services are of particular use, or if they are a potentially big customer. By rejecting providers, you are going to tend to pay more for services because now you only look at a subset of potential providers, or by rejecting customers, you are rejecting sources of income. Either way, there is a cost associated with that. If it turns out it only costs you a couple hundred dollars in the long run, then maybe it is worth the saved effort by your IT department. If it is going to cost you much more, is it really worth it? How many thousands of dollars in extra costs or lost revanue is acceptable because you don't feel like dealing with such people?

      It reminds me of when a coworker once started up a simple online store in his free time and offered me a bit of money to look over the front and backends while he still learned web development. I found out his website redirected IE users to a page telling them to get Firefox and didn't let them get to the actual store. As this was around 2005 or 2006, the logs showed that 90% of his traffic was being redirected to that page, including cases of people trying multiple times to get back to the product list. His response, "I don't want to deal with people too stupid to use IE, and I would have to waste time to make my site work on IE too." My response, "First, if I copy-paste your pages, they completely functional in IE as is. Second... you sell hot sauce, what do you care what browser people use?" He just brushed it off, and continued to insist that he didn't want to bother with such people. Considering he was able to get a couple hundred dollars a month after a bit of local promotion, and assuming there isn't some massive correlation between browser use and hot sauce purchasing, he chose not to turn that into couple thousand dollars a month over such superficial, trival BS.

      So, exactly how much money would you give up because you want to tell a customer, "Sorry, we don't want to accept your email," even if your business dealt with products that has nothing to do with email otherwise?

    10. Re:Forget about them by Lefty2446 · · Score: 1

      LOL Modpoints, tha sarcastic humor is killing me!

    11. Re:Forget about them by dshk · · Score: 2

      Huh? SPF implementations do not filter on a missing SPF record. A missing SPF records just means that, the sending mail servers of the domain are not specified. It never meant that the domain must not send any mails from any servers.

      Quote from openspf.org :
      "The domain does not have an SPF record or the SPF record does not evaluate to a result. Intended action: accept"

    12. Re:Forget about them by slimjim8094 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't think you know what SPF is or how it works.

      SPF specifies, by leveraging the DNS, which servers are allowed to send you mail from that domain. The problem it addresses is "spoofing" - I send an email to your servers claiming to be from you. If you have a SPF record, you can say servers x,y,z,a-c are allowed to send email claiming to be from foo.com.

      There's three possibilities:
      1) No SPF record - process normally
      2) SPF record, sent from valid host - generally downweight spam score, since verifiably the server that sent the email was in that organization
      3) SPF record, sent from invalid host - the subject of this Ask Slashdot. It should be "always bad" but Incompetent admins set up SPF, then get it wrong or don't update it and mail bounces. Hence the problems discussed here.

      "sender was sending all his email through a local MTA because his ISP doesn't have an externally accessible MTA" - no problem if the SPF record is correct. Or if you can't be bothered to do that, just get rid of it.

      Filtering on missing SPF records is stupid. Filtering on bad (i.e., sending host was marked as disallowed) SPF records should be 0% false positives, were it not for idiot admins - again, the subject of this AS

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    13. Re:Forget about them by xenobyte · · Score: 0

      That works fine until the CEO misses an email from a prospective client.

      Unless you plan to profit from stupidity, that prospective client is worthless if they can't even set up a functional SPF record. Either you're too stupid to know about SPF or you do it right. Everything else is dumb beyond reason.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    14. Re:Forget about them by xenobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And meanwhile in the real world where nailing some important email because the sender was sending all his email through a local MTA because his ISP doesn't have an externally accessible MTA, your boss is right now handing you your walking papers.

      The only sane way to use SPF is to drop a spam score of an email. Outright filtering on bad or missing SPF records is just a recipe for a large number of false positives.

      You don't know how SPF works, right? - Because that would excuse your statement...

      Basically, SPF is a fail-open system:

      A) No SPF: Allow the mail (fail-open)
      B) SPF present and the mail fails the check: Refuse the mail
      C) SPF present and the mail passes the check: Allow the mail

      Option B has an exception for 'soft-fail' if the SPF uses the ~all. It will allow all mail through but tags those that fail SPF.

      There's absolutely no reason not to refuse mail if the SPF check fails.

      Remember, an incorrect SPF will result in a lot of mail lost, and it won't take many minutes before this is noticed. The fastest way to fix it is not to contact every single communication peer and have them bypass their SPF check; it is of course to just fix the SPF record. A 10-second dialogue with a competent postmaster at just one of the failed recipients should yield the reason for the fail, like the missing mail source. All that's left is to fix the SPF by adding the relevant "a:xxxxx.xxx" or "ip4:xx.xx.xx.xx" to the record.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    15. Re:Forget about them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A) Mail from a regular ISP. May be spam, may be legit.
      B) Mail from some poor sap, who was told he needed SPF to be able to send to Gmail or Hotmail, without landing in the spam folder. Legit.
      C) Mail from a company with SPF experts on staff. Very likely to be a spammer (I worked as such a company. SPF and DKIM on every spam mail, along with quickly switching IP addresses whenever one of our servers got blocked anyway).

      Your choice is to block the legit mail, and allow the spam.

    16. Re:Forget about them by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      There's truth in that, sadly. The only rejected mail I've sent were spam reports via SpamCop to a notorious company, who rejected it because of SPF errors.

    17. Re:Forget about them by allo · · Score: 2

      you are destroying the sense of SPF.

      consider someone spams you from a faked domain (the thing spf should prevent). Then you send backscatter-spam to the real domain.

      fail.

    18. Re:Forget about them by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      If they are too stupid to set it up correctly then they don't deserve to work with you.

      100% right but still missing the point.

      There are people running mail servers who should not be, they don't know what they are doing or they don't spend enough time getting it right. As a company you can't reject these mails because they could be worth real money. There are jokers in the world and us hard working people have to make allowances for them.

      Just use SPF as part of a spam scoring system, but never to outright block mails.

    19. Re:Forget about them by 1s44c · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That works fine until the CEO misses an email from a prospective client.

      Unless you plan to profit from stupidity, that prospective client is worthless if they can't even set up a functional SPF record. Either you're too stupid to know about SPF or you do it right. Everything else is dumb beyond reason.

      Lots of people are dumb as a brick when it comes to IT. Some of these people manage mail servers and DNS servers. Some of them want to buy stuff from your company. This makes their stupid misconfiguration your problem. Much though I'd enjoy burning these morons at the stake you can't burn your customers alive and expect them to keep buying from you. ( Unless you are Microsoft. )

      Don't block on SPF - Use it as part of a spam scoring system.

    20. Re:Forget about them by 1s44c · · Score: 0

      Yes. Yes, they very much do. And if they don't take that function seriously enough to make sure their audience can hear them, do you really want to do business with them?

      Yes. Because my company NEEDS that money. I can't turn down customers just because they are inept at one thing they should be getting right, I only care that they can pay the bill.

    21. Re:Forget about them by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      And meanwhile in the real world where nailing some important email because the sender was sending all his email through a local MTA because his ISP doesn't have an externally accessible MTA, your boss is right now handing you your walking papers.

      Or you are handing your boss walking papers because that business you just missed out on was the difference between profit and going bust.

      The only sane way to use SPF is to drop a spam score of an email. Outright filtering on bad or missing SPF records is just a recipe for a large number of false positives.

      That's what I've said twice already in this thread. I don't think its a large number of false positives but there certainly are some.

    22. Re:Forget about them by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      There's absolutely no reason not to refuse mail if the SPF check fails.

      Yes there is. As other people have pointed out bad admins set it incorrectly every once in a while. Companies change their ISP and forget to update DNS, or alter their internal setup so the mail hits the internet from a different IP.

    23. Re:Forget about them by hobarrera · · Score: 2

      SPF means the sender's domain admin EXPLICITLY configured their domain to advertise a "drop messages that didn't come through X MTA".
      User of that domain should be informed of this, and if important emails are lost due to bad SPF records, then it's the admin (or part of the sending organization's) fault.

    24. Re:Forget about them by InvisiBill · · Score: 1

      you are destroying the sense of SPF.

      consider someone spams you from a faked domain (the thing spf should prevent). Then you send backscatter-spam to the real domain.

      fail.

      Your argument applies to any spam filter, not just SPF. If you do the rejection during the delivery, the sending mailserver (the spammer) gets it. If you accept the email, then later send the NDR based on the (possibly forged) details in the email, you may be contributing to backscatter. This has nothing to do with SPF, and everything to do with how your mail system accepts and rejects messages.

    25. Re:Forget about them by allo · · Score: 1

      No, because you send the NDR to a adress, which was detected by SPF as NOT being the source of the message. So you reach the wrong person. So instead you should just send nothing, if you filter based on SPF, because the whole point in spf is, when you filter it, you do it because you do not know the source (and the pretended source-adress is wrong)

    26. Re: Forget about them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never received a scientific article from Elsevier, have you? Damn, these people are idiots. They forward articles to thousands of recipients using the originating email address as the envelope address (MAIL FROM).

    27. Re:Forget about them by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      No, because you send the NDR to a adress, which was detected by SPF as NOT being the source of the message. So you reach the wrong person. So instead you should just send nothing, if you filter based on SPF, because the whole point in spf is, when you filter it, you do it because you do not know the source (and the pretended source-adress is wrong)

      So you're saying there is no solution?

    28. Re:Forget about them by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      That works fine until the CEO misses an email from a prospective client.

      Unless you plan to profit from stupidity, that prospective client is worthless if they can't even set up a functional SPF record. Either you're too stupid to know about SPF or you do it right. Everything else is dumb beyond reason.

      The logic behind what you're saying is good in nature, but bad in execution; I can with 100% surety say that I have lost business from people with tons of money to blow because someone who doesn't know how to configure their IT environment properly got them to blow tons of money on them.

      Translation: I lose money when I don't get email from 'the ignorant'.

    29. Re:Forget about them by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      ...Much though I'd enjoy burning these morons at the stake you can't burn your customers alive and expect them to keep buying from you. ( Unless you are Microsoft. )...

      Ooooooh Burn! And Bravo! :)

    30. Re:Forget about them by HalifaxPenguin · · Score: 1

      No, if you reject during the SMTP session, you don't send an NDR at all, you send a 5xx SMTP response code. (It doesn't matter if the reason for rejecting is SPF-related or not). It is then up to the sending server to inform the sender with an NDR, and the sending server should only be sending on behalf of authorized/authenticated users, or be a permitted relay for such a server.

      Anything detected as junk after the SMTP session is over should be marked as junk in some way so it can be stored in a junk folder. If an NDR is written then, it could be sending backscatter. If it's simply discarded, neither the sender or receiver will know when false positives are occurring.

    31. Re:Forget about them by nullchar · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Any decent outbound MTA should handle the 5xx error code properly and send their own Non Delivery Report to the original sender.

      Many mail servers are returning 5xx error codes due to forward/reverse DNS not matching, unknown recipient, content spam filtering, etc. which are being handled just fine. Bouncing due to SPF failure is preferred.

    32. Re:Forget about them by redjeremy · · Score: 1

      There's absolutely no reason not to refuse mail if the SPF check fails.

      How about mailing lists?

    33. Re:Forget about them by allo · · Score: 1

      yeah, and the problem is, there are servers, which send NDR because of SPF.
      And even when you are a server in the chain, which accepted the message, you SHOULD NOT send a NDR, because SPF is saying "hey, the sender-info is wrong". So a NDR is pointless, in ANY case, even when you accepted the message for delivery.

    34. Re:Forget about them by OdinOdin_ · · Score: 1

      No you fail. Backscatter-spam does not exist if everyone does SPF. Since you can not fake a domain.

      The "We have rejected your email due to bad SPF records" will surely get back to the domain whose SPF records are bad, regardless of if the email causing it was fake or not the bad SPF records still need to be fixed and are the responsibility of domain owner to manage.

      Correctly setup SPF records on a victims domain will cause fake emails to be rejected (with no "We have rejected ..." message generated).

      No backscatter-spam issue.

    35. Re:Forget about them by allo · · Score: 1

      nope, you fail hard.
        How do you detect a bad configured SPF? You are getting a mail, from a server listed as "cannot send mail". Now this can happen, when you have perfectly setup SPF and a spammer just spams from his own host ignoring that you're using SPF. Now the target system bounces the spam to your system, saying "hey, spammer-system cannot send mail for you".
      You set up SPF, because you WANTED that the spammer-system cannot send mail for you. But you certainly did not want other systems to bounce the rejected mails to you.

  2. Do the right thing by mhab12 · · Score: 1

    We're experiencing the identical problem, but keep on doing what you're doing. It is scary to see 'valid' mail from Fortune 500 companies who can't keep track of their own SPF records being dropped by Postini, but it is happening on a regular basis. We're doing what we can to help out those who are affected and eventually we will help reduce spam and get everyone into the 21st century with their outbound mail and SPF records.

    1. Re:Do the right thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Some would say you are doing a disservice to your customers by continuing a practice that is hurting their business in an effort to promote a technology standard that is not working.

    2. Re:Do the right thing by icebike · · Score: 1

      Some would say you are doing a disservice to your customers by continuing a practice that is hurting their business in an effort to promote a technology standard that is not working.

      Others would say you are doing a disservice to your pocketbook by turning away mail just because your customers aren't always up to speed, or have contracted their mail handling to someone else.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:Do the right thing by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyone who understands SMTP and spam knew from the very moment that SPF and its cousins/descendants were proposed that it was a hopeless measure. That, after ten years, guys like me are still having to explain "setting your SMTP server to reject because of SPF" tells you just how badly SPF failed.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Do the right thing by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      Some would say you are doing a disservice to your customers by continuing a practice that is hurting their business in an effort to promote a technology standard that is not working.

      SPF not working? - Seriously?

      If we didn't have the fail-open option of allowing mail from senders with no SPF, it would be a flawless system that would block all spam.

      I do occasionally get spam through hacked gmail or yahoo mail accounts and while they pass the SPF check, they don't pass my spamassassin though, and I've added a penalty score to all mail from those and similar email providers. No enough to block all mail but if the mail posses other spam characteristics, it will be blocked. And no serious 'prospective clients' uses a free email account anyway.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    5. Re:Do the right thing by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      So if I am working from home, how do you propose I send mail using my corporate address? With strict SPF, the old Best Practice, handing it over to my ISP relay, breaks.

      If your answer is to set up a VPN to work, I say fuck that shit. SPF is a broken solution searching for a problem.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    6. Re:Do the right thing by kwark · · Score: 2

      It's called the submission in SMTP, your company has to setup a MTA to accept authenticated TLS connections on port 587 (or any other than 25) to relay "its email domains" to the outside world via a SPF allowed host. That is a one time setup for you corporate email profile/MUA.

    7. Re:Do the right thing by cps42 · · Score: 2

      This. If an admin like the GP is so high and mighty about DNS records meeting RFC compliance (You do listen for DNS on both UDP and TCP right? And you've signed your domain with DNSSEC?), you can at least do your SMTP services correctly too. Asking for an authed SMTP submission session for each domain is now the correct best practice. Unauthed SMTP relays are a dying breed.

    8. Re:Do the right thing by Alioth · · Score: 1

      No, the answer is work sets up an authenticated SMTP server that you can tell your mail client to use for email for that particular account. It's not hard to do. I have it set up for my own mail system - whether I'm on a 3G network in Timbuktoo or at the office on my office PC, outgoing mail goes through an authenticating SMTP (SMTP+TLS, actually - sending credentials in plain text is not good practice) which I control, so the sending SMTP server is always allowed by my SPF record.

      No need to set up a VPN.

      If you're sending work email through a SMTP relay they don't control, then you're doing exactly what SPF was designed to stop: spoofing the sender's address.

    9. Re:Do the right thing by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Just another reason IT & Senior management don't see eye to eye :(

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    10. Re:Do the right thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are an idiot and a troll. Why should your company let any moron try to send email as if it came from them? Just because you want to do work at home, your IT should have figured out how to set up SMTP so that you can use their servers, or use their webmail interface (if they have one).

      Idiots like you are the reason SPF is broken. You demand a specific technical solution, but never understood the problem in the first place.

    11. Re:Do the right thing by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      So if I am working from home, how do you propose I send mail using my corporate address? With strict SPF, the old Best Practice, handing it over to my ISP relay, breaks.

      If your answer is to set up a VPN to work, I say fuck that shit. SPF is a broken solution searching for a problem.

      The 'right' way is to VPN to work or send it though your works mail server in some other way. Otherwise it's just mail with a faked sender that could be from anybody.

      Or you could add your home IP to your work's SPF record but that's pretty ugly.

    12. Re:Do the right thing by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      This. If an admin like the GP is so high and mighty about DNS records meeting RFC compliance (You do listen for DNS on both UDP and TCP right? And you've signed your domain with DNSSEC?), you can at least do your SMTP services correctly too. Asking for an authed SMTP submission session for each domain is now the correct best practice. Unauthed SMTP relays are a dying breed.

      You can also allow relaying by source IP. It might make sense in some setups. Given the choice SMTP AUTH is the right way to go though.

    13. Re:Do the right thing by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, you just advocated breaking ISP mail relay.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    14. Re:Do the right thing by InvisiBill · · Score: 1

      So if I am working from home, how do you propose I send mail using my corporate address? With strict SPF, the old Best Practice, handing it over to my ISP relay, breaks.

      If your answer is to set up a VPN to work, I say fuck that shit. SPF is a broken solution searching for a problem.

      Send it through your work mail server. Depending on exactly how it's set up, that could be as simple as changing your mail client's settings from "mail.isp.net" to "mail.work.com". It's possible that it's much more complicated than that, but it could be nearly painless.

      Keep in mind that your method of sending "me@work.com" emails from mail.isp.net would also fail the old reverse MX lookup that people used to use to block spam. When receiving an email from me@work.com, it would look up work.com and see that it uses mail.work.com as its MX. It would compare that to the sending mail.isp.net server and decide that it was spoofed mail, and reject it.

      SPF is reverse MX lookups, but able to be configured by the mail server admin. Instead of tying only the MX records to the domain name, the admin can put whatever he wants in the SPF record.

    15. Re:Do the right thing by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You have confirmed that you are troll. Lots of people replied before this one to properly use authenticated server connections back to work. And breaking ISP mail relay would end spam and not inconvenience anyone but asshole trolls like yourself.

    16. Re:Do the right thing by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, you just advocated breaking ISP mail relay.

      Yes.

      Why should I trust my ISP to handle my outgoing mail when I can do it myself? I want my mail logs, they prove that my mail got to the destination mail server. Proof like that can come in very useful.

      I only want an internet connection from my ISP, not a mail relaying service, not DNS, not web hosting.

  3. don't reject based solely on SPF by jjeffries · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Or anything else, for that matter--mark it as "spf failed" and score it as you feel appropriate for your filtering setup.

    1. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by smash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This.

      If email filtering was as simple as dropping non-SPF approved mail, spam would not exist. There is no single silver bullet in the war against spam. And besides, when domains cost a couple of dollars to register, it's entirely possible to set up an SPF enabled domain and spam from that.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by marka63 · · Score: 1

      SPF is not a spam solution. Spammers can have legitimate SPF records.

      SPF is design so that the recipient can reject forged emails without the blow back impacting the person whose email address is being forged. This only works if the published SPF records reflect reality.

    3. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by hedwards · · Score: 1

      You're supposed to combine SPF with DKIM so that you know who is sending messages from where. The point isn't to kill spam completely, just to make it as inefficient as possible. If you make it inefficient enough that they're all losing money, they'll move onto another scam.

    4. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by mvdwege · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And in the meantime SPF breaks mail for everyone whose email address is not hosted on the domain of the sending server. In other words, everyone who wants to send mail from their home PC with the From: address set to their webmail address through their ISPs mailserver.

      If a technology breaks mail so fundamentally that an end user using best practices gets their email rejected, then the technology is broken.

      Don't use SPF. It breaks mail.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    5. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When I worked at a spam company (I got hired to write software to handle 20 million mails per day on a single server - not proud of it, but I needed the job), we had SPF and DKIM on everything. Except the corporate exchange server, at least for a while. But the spam mails, having both SPF and DKIM on those was very important.

      Ever since, I've considered blocking mails with SPF or DKIM headers. Only spammers care enough to set those up correctly. And a few of the big mail companies (like GMail and Hotmail), but they're in it with the spammers anyway - at least Hotmail (our main focus) is - we got status updates every day about how close we were to getting blocked, and when to switch IP addresses around, though not directly from Microsoft, but from a company (SenderScore) claiming to be cooperating very closely with Hotmail on this - and even if they were lying about Microsoft cooperating, they still had the data.

    6. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by Alioth · · Score: 1

      What you describe is NOT best practice for email. Spoofing the sender address is not best practice.

    7. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by allo · · Score: 1

      you say it: best practice.
      This means, there are other practices (for a reason). They might not be the best, but in some cases they are needed. strict SPF filtering breaks them.

    8. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by silanea · · Score: 1

      If a technology breaks mail so fundamentally that an end user using best practices gets their email rejected, then the technology is broken.

      Don't use SPF. It breaks mail.

      If a best practice turns out to be an impediment in solving one huge aspect of an enormous problem (namely joe jobs), then this practice has outlived its usefulness.

      Do not spoof sender domains. It breaks mail.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    9. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Using your ISP mail server for outgoing mail is Best Practice.

      SMTP is supposed to be agnostic as to the sender. This is not spoofing.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    10. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by dshk · · Score: 1

      Using your ISP mail server for outgoing mail is Best Practice.

      You mixed up things. Using your ISP mail server is indeed better than sending directly from your dynamic IP address at home or in a small office.

      But that is all, in every other situations, practically any solution is better than sending through poorly maintained ISP mail servers.

      And no, sending through your ISP mail server does not break SPF at all, it is the same situation as somebody outsourcing his mail servers. Actually there is nothing unusual in that. See the "include" mechanism of SPF for such cases.

    11. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Spoofing the sender breaks mail for everyone, and you are defending that. So you obviously don't care about standards or enforcing them, but you've formed your incorrect opinion, and are trying to mold reality around that. It doesn't work.

    12. Re:don't reject based solely on SPF by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Using your ISP mail server for outgoing mail is Best Practice.

      Only when sending from user@isp.net. You are *not* doing best practices asking your residential ISP to relay mvdwedge@example.com.

      SMTP is supposed to be agnostic as to the sender. This is not spoofing.

      You are not example.com email server, so you should not send as such. You should connect to your corporate email server to send emails from that domain. That's best practices. Your lame attempt to re-write best practices by assertion because you don't know how to set up email properly doesn't work in a technical forum.

  4. Spamassassin by icebike · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Spamassassin handles SPF, reasonably intelligently, that is, not trusting it completely, not giving it more weight than it deserves.
    Hanging your spam fighting hat on any single hook is problematic. and SA uses a wealth of tools with constantly updating itself via
    scripts. Its been largely trouble free, and we have it set up so that it will learn false positives and false negatives when users
    move these to the corresponding folders.

    I've been well served by Spamassassin for some time now, it runs quietly
    on our mail server. SA does not block mail. It flags it. Our mail server will evaluate these flags and trash outright the most
    egregious spam, but we have the limits set low enough such that we will allow the questionable things through.

    We error on the side of caution, but we still dump a lot of mail right after SA flags it. (Our business can do that, your business
    may not be able to do that.)

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Spamassassin by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Yup. We run SpamAssassin along with ClamAV and postgrey on top of Postfix to filter all the incoming mail and it does a pretty good job. Here and there a spam will get through, but I can look at my logs to see all the rejections. It's not rocket science, and the solution has been tested and proven for over a decade now.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Spamassassin by Albanach · · Score: 1

      I think this makes sense where your organization cannot devote additional resources. However it's important to work out how much staff time is wasted by your spam volume.

      Personally I would reject if the sending server lacked a PTR record, or if the PTR record was invalid, or on SPF failure. I use templates to quickly reply where someone had trouble contacting us, directing them to contact their IT department and referencing RFCs where necessary. Even large ISPs would get it wrong sometimes, but invariably folk got it fixed within a day or so.

      Almost no spam got through, so there are security gains and productivity gains. I found that to be worthwhile, but it will differ for every organization.

    3. Re:Spamassassin by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      My personal experience was postgrey alone knocked out 99% of spam as the spam sender never retries regardless of error message type.

    4. Re:Spamassassin by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      Just the default tools included with a big package like Zimbra have done a marvellous job stopping spam from reaching users on my server. After training them to mark spam in the webmail the filters have learned enough to outright reject nearly all spam, but you're right Postgrey can really help. I ran it when I used a simpler setup with Postgres, Dovecot and Roundcube, and we enjoyed a very long period of sweet, spamless service. Then more spam started slipping through at some point.

      After I moved to Zimbra for the operation there was still about the same amount spam until the filters had some training and the thresholds were altered from the default spam scores. I trained them initially by feeding it 10GB of legit mail and marking it ham, then a decade or so worth of spam marked as such. The spam graph went from mountain peaks all the way to an occasional hill a week :)

      This has been running well for a couple of years, with slight bursts of spam when the trends change. The SpamAssassin learning process is running daily on the inboxes for ham and junk boxes for spam. The users get more ordinary mail than spam, so any junk with a low enough spam score to slip through to the inbox is offset quickly once relearned by the train_spam cronjob. One of my accounts gets the most spam, and it's one or two daily bastards who are now at the rejection threshold. The ones who just barely make it into the filters are sent to SpamCop, and I handle the few which slip through to a customer too occasionally. Rejections are silently dropped, not bounced.

    5. Re:Spamassassin by nblender · · Score: 1

      postgrey was awesome. Now not so much. Most spammers nowadays seem to do multiple identical runs through the lists... I used to track how much postgrey was helping and I would say now it's barely useful.

  5. Use it for scoring, not blocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Too many users are still careless with it. This is because it was proposed as a DNS standard, but was poisoned by Microsoft cluttering it with the entirely distinct "DomainKeys" project, then deliberately mislabeled the SPF version that they use. (See the history at spf.pobix.bom)

    The result is that SPF has been less useful than expected. Also, SPF does not work well over mail relays unless they're configured to to indexing and re-writing of the "From " field, and pass the bounces through the relay server on its way back to the original sender. But it has been enormously effective to add to spam *scores*, to give anything with a bad SPF result a much lower score as a potentially valid email message.

    1. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by dshk · · Score: 4, Informative

      A small correction: Forwarders must rewrite the reverse-path, which is the address they submit in the MAIL FROM SMTP command, not the From field in the mail content. They leave the From field as it is. Actually they should not tamper with the mail content at all. I believe that all large forwarders have been SPF compatible for years. Otherwise they could not deliver their mail to a very large percentage of recipients.

    2. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Less expected by whom exactly? I was part of the major discussions a decade ago surrounding SPF and there was a large contingent of damned good mail admins and SMTP experts who said the whole thing was flawed.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by thogard · · Score: 1

      SPF was broken from the start but it was a step towards a better solution.

      I liked the idea of using dns or snmp to ask the server that should have sent the message "did you send message id foo_xyz? That alone would have fixed a massive amount of spam if you tie it back to mx records of what should be sending the messages.

    4. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by marka63 · · Score: 1

      MX records are for inbound traffic. SPF is for outbound traffic. Don't mix the two.

    5. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by thogard · · Score: 1

      MX are for inbound delivery. SPF are for outbound authentication so it is even a different concept. MX records are nearly required for mail yet SPF isn't and will never be so the only authoritative way to find out if a server is involved with mail at this point in time is to look at an MX record... which is pointless for any real verification of an outbound message.

      The asymmetrical nature of email has always been the problem that will always allow spam. The only real fix is to force the inbound mail servers (which can be determined via MX records) to verify a given message that it may not have any info about. There were proposals for things like looking up example.com._.user.message-id or even just example.com._.user to see if they are approved to send messages. The problem is that if you do not centralize outbound email, you can not stop spam. That is one reason why X.400 mail systems worked they way they did.

    6. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by marka63 · · Score: 1

      It's perfectly possible to authenticate email with distributed senders. It just requires willingness to deploy the tools to do it. This includes updated clients. Whether that email is spam or not is a orthogonal matter.

    7. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by thogard · · Score: 1

      The distributed authentication tools that use cryptography that would be required to be deployed are illegal in many parts of the world so I don't see that as a decent solution to the problem.

    8. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by shirikodama · · Score: 1

      Microsoft sponsored SenderId. Domainkeys was from Yahoo and eventually was standardized into DKIM (rfc 4871)

    9. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by marka63 · · Score: 1

      In most of the world you can use cryptography for authentication even if you can't use it for confidentiality.

      Without cryptographically verified authentication you can't even verify the MX or A records are valid so you have nothing to verify against. It is only a matter of time, if they are not already, spoofing DNS responses to enable delivery of their messages.

    10. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are an idiot. I don't need SPF to get my email delivered, so why would it be required for outbound?

    11. Re:Use it for scoring, not blocking by dshk · · Score: 2

      After reading the comments here, it is obvious that there is one and only one significant issue with the SPF system: 95% of system administrators do not get it. I try to clean things up (therefore it will be long, and nobody will read it, but anyway...).

      First of all, fortunately, SPF is very simple to implement it, so most admins do no harm, even if they do not understand it.

      Nor they get SMTP. Specifically the most important promise of SMTP: Your mail will be either delivered, or you will get a notification that it failed.

      In the old days that promise was delivered, and email was a huge success. But then became mass spamming, and it became impossible to deliver the SMTP promise. You only had bad options:
      -deliver all mails to the user. They lose huge amounts of time with deleting spams.
      -place suspect mails into a Junk folder and send back a notification: you become a backscatter spammer. The sender was most likely forged, and you delievered your notification to an innocent.
      -place suspect mails into a Junk folder, but do not send back notification: It all mails in Junk is read, than you have won nothing. If all mail is not read, you break the SMTP promise, because of some legitimate mail will be practically swallowed.
      -reject suspected spam within the mail session: That requires significant processing power, and you are easier become DOS-ed exploiting this.

      SPF was created to solve THIS issue. Not the problem of spam, but the effect of it! With SPF you again have a good choise:
      Either place suspect email in Junk folder or drop it, but in either case, send back a notification. Now you are not a backscatter spammer, because the sender (the so called reverse path), thanks to SPF, cannot be forged. Your notification is assured to go to the real sender.

      But this requires that you block mail which fails the SPF test. Do not accept it at all, block it right now in the SMTP session! Note that a missing SPF record is not considered failure - another common misunderstanding. If somebody does not publish SPF record, than he will get backscatter-spam, but this was his choice...

      If your mail server does accept mails which fails the SPF check, than you again cornered yourself into the bad position. You have no good choice. Even if later your system decides that the mail is likely spam, you must deliver it to the user. Your only other safe choice would be to notify the sender about the issue, and let him fix the issue himself, but now you must not send to the sender because it may be a forged address (and you can easily find yourself on a blacklist). You tried to be cautious by accepting mail with failed SPF check, but actually you made the situation more dangerous to your user.

  6. Filter based on IP geographic region instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The best mail filtering is based on geographic region of the envelope IP address. Most spam comes from countries without any proper anti-spam legislation, so simply junk them all until they get their act together.

    1. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by dshk · · Score: 1

      AFAIK most spam come from the USA. Or maybe they are second.

    2. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Oh thank you for reminding me. Back when we had scads of ever angrier customers in the mail because we wouldn't answer them. Or rather, we couldn't. They were verizon customers, we were in europe, and verizon in their wisdom had decided that "too much" spam was coming out of yurp so they geoblocked it at the router level.

      Right on the heels of a then-contemporary report saying that most spam (by far) came out of 'merica. Good show, verizon, I won't soon forget that little stunt.

    3. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by smash · · Score: 1

      If you are in the business world this will simply NOT work. Presumably, you are talking about russia and china - big businesses are doing a lot of work both in those regions and with companies located in those regions. For your home connection, sure....

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    4. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have never seen any spam from the USA. Lots of spam might purport to be from the USA but if you check the envelope you will discover that it is probably coming from Moldova, Kazakhstan, Poland, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Romania, Iran, or Taiwan.

    5. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by _merlin · · Score: 1

      Most spam I have to deal with comes from US, although Japan has increased its proportion of spam recently. I keep reading people complain about spam from China and eastern Europe, but I never receive much of it. I still think it's a case of racism causing blindness.

    6. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do GeoIP lookups on the sending SMTP servers, you'll see.

      I get India, Kazakhstan, Russia, "East Ossetia", Poland, Czech Rep, Romania by the shovelful.
      Actually not terribly much spam from China, but plenty of SNMP sweeps and ping sweeps.

    7. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by dshk · · Score: 1

      Spam from Iran? Strange. I checked my last four spam mails: 1 China, 1 France, 2 USA.

      OK, it is a pathetic statistics, but still... The country is based on IP address of the server which directly connected to our server, and I lookud up the IP address on ip2location.com.

    8. Re:Filter based on IP geographic region instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No the origin is inside the USA. Not the bulk on my servers but enough!
      Comcast Business accounts and the Sprint Wireless network appear to be the worst offenders followed by a few shady VPS providers.

  7. whitelist by shentino · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Use SPF as part of a whitelist/blacklist scheme.

    For sources that have their shit together, trust their SPF records as an absolute metric.

    SPF does work if set up correctly.

    1. Re:whitelist by urbanriot · · Score: 2

      I'm fully in agreement and I'm questioning whether some of the commenters here suggesting to use scoring over blocking, for senders that have enabled SPF, are actively involved in the administration of high volume email servers. If a company has created an SPF record, clearly they want people to block email that is not originating from their servers. This does not result in 'false positives' as its an SPF record with the DNS server - the address doesn't change.

    2. Re:whitelist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are several reasons why an e-mail legitimately sent from the approved outgoing servers will end up with an altered path that causes it to fail the eventual check by the receiver.. the most common and obvious one is forwarding. SPF isn't followed strictly, because these things happen quite frequently and drop alot of legitimate incoming mail.

      There are solutions like the extra fields inserted into the mail that keep the chain of hops intact, so it can be unwrapped by the receiver... but all parties have to stick to that as-of-yet non-standard method and must use the *same* style of indicating that chain.

    3. Re:whitelist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my own mailbox, the most common SPF failures are related to companies that are using a third party mail list provider to run one or more of the distribution lists.
        It's a little hard to tell exactly what the issue is, but I think that the SPF record was not updated when the third party added additional servers. So some fairly large percentage of email I get from this organization fail depending upon which sparklist.com mail server it went through.

    4. Re:whitelist by CBravo · · Score: 1

      It also fails when setup correctly. I have seen spam reports with emails having a From: header with our domain but with other IP's then allowed by our SPF records.

      I am still wondering which spammer had issues to come up with domain names that are 'easier' and 'better' for him (i.e. no or bad SPF). Puzzling.

      --
      nosig today
    5. Re:whitelist by shentino · · Score: 1

      That sounds more like someone spoofing your domain with their IP.

      If that's the case it would appear SPF is working correctly and it's the reports that are bogus for being suckered by a forged From header.

    6. Re:whitelist by CBravo · · Score: 1

      The report is also about spoofing. So 'suckered' is not the right term.

      --
      nosig today
  8. We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info" by neiras · · Score: 3, Informative

    We had the same problem.

    Our solution: if the message makes it past all our spam filters and the only problem is that the sender's client isn't allowed by their SPF record, we send a friendly, plain-english informational message back to the sender, then deliver their message to our users.

    "Please tell your company's IT staff that your mail server isn't set up correctly. This may cause your messages to be rejected or classified as spam. Please forward the following information to your system administrator: [SPF record] [sender's IP]. Thank you!"

    Usually the issue is that the sender has set up GMail to send "from" their company email without sending through the company SMTP servers, usually without authorization.

    We do the same thing with broken DKIM signatures.

    This has worked well for us, since senders get tired of the message and seem to get things dealt with. We considered adding a "threat" saying that if the problem wasn't fixed, we'd block the sender, but that was rightfully shot down as pretty mean.

  9. SPF-SOFTFAIL = Supid by krelvin · · Score: 1

    We actually mark on SPF checks on the outside but accept them. They then pass through a spam quarantine system which if they are SPF-FAIL or SPF-SOFTFAIL they are quarantined. Users can release them if they want to but they have to check their "Junk" reports to look for them or go to the portal itself. They have up to 15 days to release them or they are gone. However since these are a policy based rule, they can't white list senders that are messed up. Doesn't take long for a major vendor to learn they need to do email right.

    Biggest problem is people with SPF records ending with ~ALL which basically means here is where we think our mail is coming from but if it is from somewhere else don't block it. Kind of stupid to not know where your email is being sent from. Especially annoying when a known company is setup like that that gets used as a phishing attack which is why we now quarantine SPF-SOFTFAIL now.

  10. Google does whatever it does by kwerle · · Score: 1

    Thanks, Google!

    I can't be bothered to run my own damn SMTP/IMAP/etc any more.

    1. Re:Google does whatever it does by smash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      See megaupload. If you're a business, using cloud a service for email storage is just WAY too legally grey right now. IMHO.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:Google does whatever it does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny seeing geeks brag that they outsourced.

    3. Re:Google does whatever it does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny seeing geeks brag about outsourcing.

    4. Re:Google does whatever it does by kwerle · · Score: 1

      I'm not a business and I love it. And the business I work for uses google (thank goodness we no longer use some Exchange product).

      I'd say that if you're in a grey market, using any cloud service is a grey area right now. Frankly, if you're Mr. Dotcom and don't encrypt all your email, you're just asking for trouble. Hell, you're asking for trouble in any case. Any server he was using was going to be confiscated - may as well leave it in the cloud unless you have a deadman switch on your server room (which seems like a good idea in his case).

    5. Re:Google does whatever it does by smash · · Score: 1

      You don't have to be in a grey market. I'll give you my example. We are an international mining contractor based in Australia. If we host our stuff "in the cloud" - what legal juristdiction applies? Where do we stand with regards to data retention legal requirements if the cloud provider has a massive disaster and can not recover from backup (as has happened over east to a cloud provider in this country?

      Where do we stand with regards to foreign corporations via governments in dubious places (e.g., DRC, Mali, etc. where we currently have operations) potentially gaining access to our data for the entire group which may not be applicable to our company in other countries?

      Just because some businesses are currently running on Google, doesn't necessarily mean it's a smart idea. Plenty of businesses are still running IE6 on Windows XP, too.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  11. Don't bother fixing the world, obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't fix everyone else's mail server and you can't fix everyone else's SPF records. SPF was a poorly thought out idea with a poor implementation, and it's never ever going to become relevant. The only thing it's good for is wasting your time like this.

    If you have allo day to spend on this, you might try fixing the world's HELO responses too. You can catch tons of spam this way. And put your users out of business by blocking their essential mail coming from incompetently run mail servers.

  12. Did you know? by wbr1 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Here is how I increased my SPF using one weird trick!

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:Did you know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ~Obey!

    2. Re:Did you know? by operagost · · Score: 1

      wbr1 makes a great point. Slashdot's blog is amazing. My friend's mom's parakeet makes $375 a day from home. It's totally legal and she didn't believe it could be done. http://isuck.example.com/gv56tgy

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  13. Add receivers automatically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Give sender a check box to manually block it.

    Automatically add all receivers to the SPF.

  14. Depends on the weather by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it's going to be hazy out I prefer SPF 25. If it's full on sun I prefer SPF 40 or above.

  15. DMARC by MillerHighLife21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's what DMARC is for. It let's companies specify exactly how to handle their SPF (and DKIM) rules based on how thoroughly they have covered their bases. The company I work for deals with a ton of phishing against our user base and implemented SPF, DKIM, and DMARC with great success.

    Google has excellent documentation on the protocol.

    --
    "Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
  16. Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We just get Google to worry about spam for us.
    We use Postini for archiving
    We have low TTL MX records and a back up provider in case we have to worry about Google (again)
    We have an account with Socket labs, in case Google screws up sending mail.
    We have too few legitimate origins for maintaining SPF to be a problem

    This works, is robust, piss easy to manage and dirt cheap. 150 - 200 employee company.

  17. SPF is worthless, unfortunately by realmolo · · Score: 1

    You CAN'T reject based on SPF, as you have learned. You'll lose too much valid mail.

    So the best you can do is use it as part of a spam-scoring system, like SpamAssassin. Unfortunately, anti-spam systems that try to assign a "score", or try to analyze mail content, are ALSO worthless. Spammers have *completely* figured out how to get past any anti-spam system that analyzes content.

    The sad fact is that the only way to effectively stop spam is to pay for an anti-spam service like Postini (which is going away, I hear), or buy something like an IronPort.

    Basically, professionally-maintained, commercial blacklists are the ONLY really effective anti-spam system. If you are doing anything else, you aren't doing enough.

    1. Re:SPF is worthless, unfortunately by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Basically, professionally-maintained, commercial blacklists are the ONLY really effective anti-spam system.

      I've been on the wrong end of a few of those since I have a mail server on an address that used to be a dynamic address something close to ten years before I got it and it gets blacklisted every now and again when people accidently dredge stuff out of old lists. To sum up those events, commercial rarely means "professionally-maintained" with spam blacklists.

    2. Re:SPF is worthless, unfortunately by smash · · Score: 1

      I manage to cut over 75% of spam before it gets to content filtering by greylisting, and the spamhaus zen block list. The vast majority of spam doesn't even get to my content filter.

      No, it's not perfect, but if your boss isn't willing to shell out for an ironport or you're trying to do it yourself, cutting 75% out before it even sends the content to your server is a win in my book.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    3. Re:SPF is worthless, unfortunately by allo · · Score: 1

      > spamhaus
      do not use them. they are making money with unblocking. so potential clients are not reachable, just because spamhaus blocked them and they do not even know it (or do not see the point in paying for the spamhaus blackmailing)

  18. DMARC... by Phoenix+Rising · · Score: 1

    Add DMARC to your processing (http://www.dmarc.org/). It's a 'yes, I really meant it' notification for senders to communicate to receivers.

    Other than that, the other suggestions already posted are about as good as it gets: use SPF as one element in scoring a message. Mark the message if your e-mail system allows it (e.g. label:authenticated in green, or label:authfail in yellow).

    --
    Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
  19. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by hawguy · · Score: 1

    We had the same problem.

    Our solution: if the message makes it past all our spam filters and the only problem is that the sender's client isn't allowed by their SPF record, we send a friendly, plain-english informational message back to the sender, then deliver their message to our users.

    "Please tell your company's IT staff that your mail server isn't set up correctly. This may cause your messages to be rejected or classified as spam. Please forward the following information to your system administrator: [SPF record] [sender's IP]. Thank you!"

    That's nice if you don't rely on email for communication with your customers. Generally, customers (and potential customers) don't respond well to nagging -- especially if whatever you're asking is outside of their control. They may be too small to have anyone to complain to (and no idea how to fix it themselves), or they may complain to the corporate helpdesk who says "Nope, our server is set up the way we want it".

    If I got an email like that from a vendor I was trying to reach, I wouldn't be doing service with that vendor.

    One vendor that we were paying support to was trapping our entire domain's email in a spam filter - none of our emails could go through, we ended up faxing problem reports to them. This went on for 2 months before they finally admitted that there was a problem in their (outsourced) email spam filter, they ended up crediting us 2 months of our monthly support contract because their SLA promised 24 hour response to emailed support requests, and we didn't get any response at all.

  20. Yes, be a hardass about it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hells yes. I use postifx and reject connections that fail SPF with a 500 error. For example..

    "550 5.7.1 : Sender address rejected: Please see http://www.openspf.org/Why?id=dassergey%40tadka.com&ip=103.22.182.230&receiver=mail.server.com%20:%20Reason:%20mechanism"

    I have found that most senders just forward the bounce message to their administrator who (you would hope) have the skills to rectify the problem.

    I also use DKIM http://www.dkim.org/ and DMARC http://www.dmarc.org/. They're worth checking out too.

  21. Reject them immediately by dshk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We reject mails which fail the SPF check immediately within the mail session. That is the only safe way, because then the sender will receive a bounce message from his own mail server.

    We never received complaints regarding SPF rejects, but maybe because we do not have large incoming mail traffic.

    Even if there were false positives, it would not hurt anybody, because the sender is guaranteed to be immediately notified that his message had not reached its recipient. He could contact us using a different method, not mail - in addition to complaining to his (so called) system administrators.

    1. Re:Reject them immediately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless the email goes through a forwarder, which will then fail to bounce it back to the sender *unless* the forwarder has SRS set up. Very few mail servers have SRS setup up.

      Never getting complaints because they never arrive in the right place does not count as successfully sending a complaint.

    2. Re:Reject them immediately by urbanriot · · Score: 1

      I don't believe I've ever heard of an SPF false positive failure but the sender would be notified with a bounce back, at which point the issue could be corrected, so I don't think false positives should be a concern.

    3. Re:Reject them immediately by dshk · · Score: 2

      When a forwarder - actually any SMTP server - accepts a mail, than that means that it accepts the responsibility of either
      1) delivering it, or
      2) notifying the original submitter about the failure.

      If a server fails to fulfill such a basic requirement of the SMTP protocol, than it is not an SMTP server, and anybody who depend on it is in serious trouble. And this is completely independent of SPF.

      Regarding getting complaints: we have phone numbers and HTML contact forms. Our postmaster account is monitored and it is exempt of any kind of filtering. If somebody really wanted to complain then had the methods to do so.

    4. Re:Reject them immediately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "We reject mails which fail the SPF check immediately within the mail session. That is the only safe way, because then the sender will receive a bounce message from his own mail server. "

      This is false. The mail server that attempts delivery to your sever could be several hops along the mail path. There is no guarantee that any bounce message will be received by the sending party.

    5. Re:Reject them immediately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bouncing is the appropriate response, especially for explicit hardfail. By publishing SPF, the sender domain takes responsibility for ensuring validity. it is Sender policy framework after all. The bounce will let them know either of client misconfiguration or a rogue or otherwise unmanaged sender.

    6. Re:Reject them immediately by GreyFoxx · · Score: 1

      > We reject mails which fail the SPF check immediately within the mail session

      Try doing this as a colo/hosting provider servicing thousands of domains and hundreds of thousands of incoming emails (if not millions a day) from all all over the world and you quickly learn that immediately rejecting by SPF is something that can really only be done by small companies who get very little mail from few sources.

      It's just not something a support desk is ready to handle since your hosting customers want the ability to send email from wherever is convenient so rarely want an SPF record in their own domain, and will scream bloody murder if you bounce "important" email because someone buggered an SPF record or never had one in the first place because they've never had anyone else reject their mail over it.

      It's just not a viable option for large scale email/hosting.

      Now as part of a scoring scheme like spamassassin, that's a different beast. Then it becomes at least slightly useful.

    7. Re:Reject them immediately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "When a forwarder - actually any SMTP server - accepts a mail, than that means that it accepts the responsibility of either
      1) delivering it, or
      2) notifying the original submitter about the failure."

      This is not part of the RFCs.

    8. Re:Reject them immediately by dshk · · Score: 1

      There is no guarantee that any bounce message will be received by the sending party.

      No, there IS a guarantee that the bouncing message will receive the sending party. That is a basic requirement of the SMTP protocol.

      Otherwise the sending domain in question has not only messed up its SPF records, but in addition it has a horribly broken mail system too. Maybe it worths keeping a safe distance from them. :)

      Seriously, if we meet somebody with
      1. broken SPF record and
      2. broken mail system and
      3. never noticed the above previously and
      4. send us an important message and
      5. negligent enough to not follow it up
      then we will miss an important message.

      But, that is a bit too much ifs, is not it? Honestly, I am more worried about the spam filtering heuristics in Thunderbird and in Gmail, not to mention other important things in life. I believe we benefit more from SPF than the risk it causes. But your mileage may vary.

    9. Re:Reject them immediately by dshk · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should read RFC 5321 more carefully:

      "In other words, message transfer can occur in a single connection between the original SMTP-sender and the final SMTP-recipient, or can occur in a series of hops through intermediary systems. In either case, once the server has issued a success response at the end of the mail data, a formal handoff of responsibility for the message occurs: the protocol requires that a server MUST accept responsibility for either delivering the message or properly reporting the failure to do so (see Sections 6.1, 6.2, and 7.8, below)."

    10. Re:Reject them immediately by dshk · · Score: 1

      If you are talking about your customers, than you set their SPF record correctly, do you? So their mail will not bounced by others. If they want to use random email servers of the world, than you setup an "allow all" SPF record for them. Or you do not setup a record, but I think in this case you are doing a disservice to them, because their mail will be more suspicious. And no, if a domain has no SPF record, then its mails will not be rejected by any SPF compliant mail server.

      Regarding spamassasin: that is a heuristics, in contrast to the well-defined SPF system. It is strange that you are afraid of SPF, but trust in a Spamassasin score.

      However, I understand, that if you are neither a small organisaton, nor a big, influential company, like Google, then you may not want to take the effort to educate your users / other system administrators. But now, in 2013, maybe SPF is mature enough (thanks to the efforts of both the small and the large organisations), and it is not that big effort, and there are more benefits for customers than disadvantages, even in the short term.

    11. Re:Reject them immediately by anom · · Score: 1

      This; a thousand times this.

      If I issue a 250 Queued response, it means that the email coming in is actually going to be deposited in a user's mailbox, otherwise the sender is notified by some component of the sending mail system.

      Not only does this make the failure message itself more reliable, but it makes the sending user more likely to complain to his/her own IT department, as that's where the bounce message will likely be sourced from.

    12. Re:Reject them immediately by urbanriot · · Score: 1

      If I had the mod points, I would mod every one of your points up as there's posts in this thread that are technically inaccurate to the point of 'outright wrong' and your posts are sensibly accurate. One of the domains we manage receives thousands of emails per hour and millions of emails per day and we fully support SPF on both sides, enforcing SPF outgoing (-all) and fully supporting SPF incoming. Even a softfail on incoming will increase our server's consideration of your spammyness. Since implementing SPF globally, we haven't had any complaints on either the recipient or sender's side while we've reduced the amount of people that receive spam in the name of our domain and reduced the amount of spam that we receive.

      I believe even gmail affects spam ratings by interpreting softfails.

      I'm guessing that the lack of education and complexity of creating a proper SPF record is adversely affecting its adoption rate.

  22. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by smash · · Score: 1

    Of limited usefulness. MD walks in "i'm expecting this email for a potential tender, the client tells me we are rejecting their email, and submissions close today!".

    The MD receiving the odd spam is not a career limiting prospect. Missing a multi-million dollar contract due to non-delivery of business correspondence (or that reason being used as a scapegoat by your company's tendering department) potentially is.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  23. SPF is authoritative. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a site publishes an SPF record, they have requested that you take the record into account when accepting mail from their domain. Especially if they publish it as hardfail, you should definitely bounce any hardfail. If their SPF record is broken, the onus is on their site to deal with it, so bounce at the MX.

  24. Try not to rely on true/false spam filtering by FridayBob · · Score: 1

    Of course SPF filtering is not perfect; no one filter method ever is, thanks to all the badly configured mail servers out there. So, try not to build mail servers that reject incoming mail based on any one test, like one for SPF, or else you'll probably end up maintaining a lengthy whilelist, which will not only make you unpopular with the users, but is also a waste of time.

    Instead, I built a mail system, using Exim (an extremely flexible MTA), that keeps track of a total number of 'strikes', as I call them, for positive scores for a number of filter categories, e.g. broken reverse lookup, bad HELO response, bad sender domain, blacklisted domain, no callout response, etc. Most of my filters are applied during the recipient phase of the delivery, before the MTA agrees to receive the message body (the data phase). If a message gets at least a certain number of strikes (in my case 3), it's rejected. If only 1 or 2, it ends up in the spambox of the intended recipient. These filter tests are separate from the ClamAV and spamassassin tests, both of which can still lead to an outright rejection.

    In my experience, this method of counting strikes and using spamboxes to route messages to if they have only failed one or two filter categories has proved to be highly reliable and virtually maintenance free.

  25. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    In other words you're generating soft bounces and making your server vulnerable to being used as an attack vector.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  26. SPF Sucks by dskoll · · Score: 1

    The idea is good, but in practice it's horrible. Here's what we do:

    We never give a bonus to anything scoring SPF "pass" unless its from one of a few large domains that we know have good SPF records.

    We add a small score (1 SpamAssassin point) for SPF softfail.

    We add a moderate score in most cases for SPF fail.

    For specific, often-phished domains like paypal.com and ebay.com, we add lots of points for SPF fail and softfail.

    1. Re:SPF Sucks by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      SPF isn't meant to add points; SPF can fail or not-fail, but the best it can assure is that the email came from a server the admin says is trusted to send emails, nothing more.

  27. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How are you handling false positives caused by inaccurate SPF records?

    The only "false positives" is accepting SPF -all when that is the policy the domain holder has in place. If you're going to check the records, do it right and reject at SMTP time.

  28. We use it - but we keep postmaster@ out of it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We use it - blocking on 'fail' and 'softfail'. We use ORF, and the SMTP response explicitly includes "Contact postmaster@mydomain for help if needed" (and we've configured ORF to always whitelist emails to that address irrespective of SPF status.)

    Yes, the spec is a bit broken (softfail?) but it's wider accepted than DKIM.

  29. Educate your users, and SPF mungers by jhealy1024 · · Score: 1

    We use Postini (now Google message security), and we turned on their SPF checks. Unfortunately, there are no knobs for this, so SPF pass is "good", SPF softfail is "bad", and SFP fail is "always quarantine, even if the address is whitelisted".

    Despite some high-profile mail getting snagged by this, we educated our users and let them know that while we're more stringent with SPF than most places, it's not "our fault" that other people can't configure their domains correctly. After an initial spate of 10 or so messages where we had to call other IT departments to set them straight, it's more or less died down now and our users know how the problems get resolved.

    We also created this page to send to the e-mail originator, so we didn't have to craft well-thought-out e-mail responses each time:

        http://web.suffieldacademy.org/~jhealy/spf.html

    All of this makes for a little more work for us, but it has cut down on spam. Also, it makes the internet a little better of a place as we slowly drag other domains into compliance by catching their mistakes. ;-)

    1. Re:Educate your users, and SPF mungers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love all the snarky comments by asshole admins that work at a place that probably has more admins than needed. Sure, I bet you have all the time in the world to work on your email spf records when you charge more than twice the median yearly wage for tuition. Others (most others) work at places where the admins have to...

      ah fuck it you loser.

    2. Re:Educate your users, and SPF mungers by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      It would also be nice if all this text was CC licensed or something, so other could reuse it for their own SPF-rejects. ;)

  30. Think of the senders! by urbanriot · · Score: 1

    For the past year, one of our business domains has been a patsy for a continual bombardment of spam against the internet. Typically our catch-all account would receive at least 200 bounce back failures a day. Since then, we enabled SPF on our domain and it drastically increased the amount of bounce-backs considerably... which is good, as it means less people are seeing our domain in a malicious light as they're immediately denying the spam as it's caught by an SPF filter before it goes through other filters.

    I encourage all mail server admins to enable SPF to hamper the ability of spammers to hit their targets.

  31. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by Bogtha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    we send a friendly, plain-english informational message back to the sender

    Please don't do this. One of the problems SPF solves is that spammers pick some random domain then spoof emails from that domain to send to millions of people. If you happen to be one of the unlucky people whose domain is targeted, you get a million bounces in your inbox.

    The whole point of SPF is that if an email fails an SPF check, the email may not have come from the purported sender, and you should not treat it as genuine. You're completely undermining what SPF is for by doing this.

    --
    Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
  32. I contract it out... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find that usually Aveeno works the best, although Burt's Beeswax has some more natural ones that are better for the skin.

  33. What the H* is SPF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For those of us in the rest of the universe, what the H* is "SPF"? Sounds like some kind of inaccurate Spam Filter. ("FPS" is First Person Shooter games where you shoot at the enemy; maybe "SPF" is where the enemy shoots at you?)

    1. Re:What the H* is SPF? by dshk · · Score: 1

      SPF means Sender Policy Framework. It is a method to specify and check the precise list of servers which are allowed to send mails in the name of a domain.

      Receiving servers use it to check the validity of the reverse-path of the mail. Reverse-path is the address to where bounce messages should be sent.

      It is nothing more, nothing less. It causes great confusion because many thinks that it is intended to be a final SPAM prevention method, when it is clearly not.

      Alone, it makes sending SPAM only a bit more difficult. On the other hand it does make easier to catch spams with other methods. As more and more domains and receiving servers start to use it, it becomes more and more effective in this role.

      The simplest benefit of setting up SPF for a domain that your domain name cannot be forged as the reverse-path of spam mails. So you will get less back-scatter spam and angry mails. SPF almost completely eliminated back-scatter spam for us, which was once quite an annoying issue.

  34. SPF is designed to be implemented aggressively by abelb · · Score: 1

    SPF's great benefit is protecting your users against phishing attacks. Common phishing targets such as Paypal, eBay and Gmail, as well as banks and other finance organisations have very well managed SPF records. The onus for ensuring SPF records are correct falls on the sender, not the recipient. If someone inputs an SPF record for their server, then sends an e-mail via a different server you're doing exactly as requested by blocking the message. Problems of misconfigured SPF records will ease once more organizations implement it aggressively so that administrators will not be able to assume their mail is flowing correctly when delivery is initially successful to a few lax servers.

    1. Re:SPF is designed to be implemented aggressively by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Indeed. If we start softening our SPF filters, then nobody will fix their servers, so we'll end up with lots of broken senders, and SPF will become useless (because of the excess of broken senders).

  35. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by GumphMaster · · Score: 2

    Relying on any form of email for multi-million dollar tender delivery is the career limiting move here.

    --
    Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
  36. Dont forget Microsoft's lame attempt by alanshot · · Score: 1

    I havent seen it in a while, but for a while we kept having issues with some implementations of Exchange refusing email based on our perfectly valid SPF records. The problem only occurred if we had both SPF AND SenderID (M$' so called "SPF 2.0") records for our domain. If we deleted our SPF records and only left the SenderID record, the mail would be delivered.

    Way to go Microsoft in taking a perfectly good standard and deciding its not QUITE good enough and muddying the waters with your own crap.

  37. Use SPF as a hint by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    You can use SPF as a hint. A bad SPF record could trigger longer greylisting delay, therefore lowering the ability of a spammer to reach destination before been known by blacklists. milter-greylist allows such setup.

  38. Don't confuse anti-spoofing with anti-spam. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Something to keep in mind is that SPF isn't intended as an anti-spam technology, it's intended as an anti-spoofing technology, and it only really applies to the email envelope HELO/EHLO and MAIL FROM fields. The idea behind SPF is that if you have a valid SPF record, some third party shouldn't be permitted to send mail that claims to be you at the envelope level. However, that doesn't prevent someone from claiming to be you in the FROM field which normally isn't validated by SPF. In addition, there's nothing preventing a bad actor from setting up his own spam domain with a perfectly valid SPF record and spamming the heck out of you, and all their spam will pass SPF just fine. DKIM isn't much help either because that just validates that the mail hasn't been modified since it was originally sent, it makes no judgement about the quality of the content. DMARC is actually your best bet as an anti-spoofing technology, as it's designed to validate the authenticity of the email address' domain displayed to the user in the FROM field using SPF and/or DKIM, but again, it says nothing about the quality of the content. Even so, DMARC runs into issues because it can't validate the sender information that most email clients readily display, the so called from or pretty name. We get mail all the time from a major ISP's mail server that passes the various authentication acronyms, yet the pretty name claims to be another company's billing department. Also, many many forwarders, mailing lists, and social group services will break/violate one or more of these various schemes - so you need to keep that in mind as well. I can tell you from personal experience that SEVP's don't like their Facebook mail being dropped on the floor because they're using an imperfect forwarding service. "But Sir, Facebook says to reject it based on their DMARC policy!" doesn't work as a get out of jail card :-)

  39. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Email is normally considered more reliable than fax or mail, and it's much faster too. We typically sign things and run them through our copier, which emails out a scanned image of the document that we can forward on. As a bonus we can make sure that the signature was visible and the text legible.

    The point is that it has to be that reliable because there is an expectation of reliability for a tool that people use more often than the telephone.

  40. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by smash · · Score: 1

    Sure. But shit rolls down-hill, and it's not the MD who's going to get fired.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  41. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by smash · · Score: 1

    Put it this way - in an ideal world, I agree with your premise. But the reality is that people expect email to work, and don't care WHY it failed. The fact that you bounced their legitimate correspondence is unacceptable to the business side of the company. The one that brings IN money.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  42. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by neiras · · Score: 1

    In other words you're generating soft bounces and making your server vulnerable to being used as an attack vector.

    Nope, we do limits - one message per week per sender. So no effective attack vector.

  43. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by neiras · · Score: 1

    The whole point of SPF is that if an email fails an SPF check, the email may not have come from the purported sender, and you should not treat it as genuine. You're completely undermining what SPF is for by doing this.

    Yeah, if everyone did this it would be bad - zillions of polite informational messages. You make a good point.

    On one hand we're a small shop with a low-traffic email server. We've had good success getting sending domains to fix their record. On the other hand, perhaps we should go back to passive mode. I'll mention it to the system administrators.

  44. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by neiras · · Score: 1

    If I got an email like that from a vendor I was trying to reach, I wouldn't be doing service with that vendor.

    One vendor that we were paying support to was trapping our entire domain's email in a spam filter - none of our emails could go through...

    I see what you're saying. Just wanted to emphasize that email messages are never dropped in our system, they are always delivered. The SPF check is still part of the spam checks, but by the time we get to the "send informational message" stage we've already decided the message isn't spam. We also check the sending IP against the Backscatterer RBL, which hopefully keeps us from sending to domains that have been hijacked.

    The informational message is only sent once per week to any given sender. We do have an "don't email me about this again" link in the email. Finally, we don't send the message to anyone sending from a rather large commercially-maintained list of known webmail address and ISP mail servers, which exempts a large portion of senders from ever seeing the message (these users can't do anything to fix a broken spf record).

  45. You don't implement SFP... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SFP is not an approved RFC so you don't implement it in a production environment.

  46. reject at SMTP level by Priyadi · · Score: 1

    It is better to reject it at SMTP level and let the sender know about the fact immediately, instead of scoring the message low and lost in the spam folder, and the sender has no idea if it reached the recipient.

  47. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by mvdwege · · Score: 1

    So you get hit with a 10.000 address spam run.

    Are you still contending that you are not a nuisance?

    Shut. that. system. down.

    --
    "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  48. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The informational message is only sent once per week to any given sender. We do have an "don't email me about this again" link in the email.

    So, basically you admit to spamming people.

    That's what I thought... Only spammers like SPF, because they can get their spam messages whitelisted on their own control. (I used to work at a spam company, and we had SPF and DKIM on every spam mail we sent out).

  49. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by mcrbids · · Score: 1

    Except that email is commonly used for such. I have negotiated contracts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars by email. (not yet multi-million, but well on my way, nonetheless)

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  50. SPF only a hint, graylisting a must by dragisha · · Score: 1

    Antispam measures are effective only when methods are combined, with no single method being more important than everything else.

    Also, graylisting in front of your mail server is one of most effective methods to defend. Legitimate mail infrastructure will rarely (if ever) use different IP address for every delivery tried.

    Graylisting, combined with RBL, combined with spamassassin (with SPF and most other methods used through it)... And you have decent solution. What remains is to define your policies and your spam problems are terminated, for looong time.

    --
    http://opencm3.net, http://www.nongnu.org/gm2/
  51. Obligatory form reply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your post advocates a

    (X) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

    approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

    ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
    (X) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
    ( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
    ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
    (X) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
    (X) Users of email will not put up with it
    (X) Microsoft will not put up with it
    ( ) The police will not put up with it
    ( ) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
    (X) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
    (X) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
    ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
    ( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

    Specifically, your plan fails to account for

    ( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
    ( ) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
    ( ) Open relays in foreign countries
    ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
    ( ) Asshats
    ( ) Jurisdictional problems
    ( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
    ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
    ( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
    (X) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
    ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
    ( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
    (X) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
    ( ) Extreme profitability of spam
    ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
    ( ) Technically illiterate politicians
    ( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
    ( ) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
    ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
    ( ) Outlook

    and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

    (X) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
    been shown practical
    ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
    ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
    (X) Blacklists suck
    ( ) Whitelists suck
    ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
    (X) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
    ( ) Sending email should be free
    (X) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
    ( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
    ( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
    ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
    ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
    ( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

    Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

    ( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
    ( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
    (X) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
    house down!

  52. Yes, I do use use SPF and tumgreyspf even by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 1

    Not only I use SPF, but I also maintain the tumgreyspf package in Debian, which does both SPF and greylisting.

    And for those who have bad SPF records, and send email from the wrong IP? Well too bad, they wont be able to write to me. But as well to so many other persons (gmail, hotmail, etc.) that it's not really a huge concern, and that I don't feel like I should be the one having to spend the time explaining how to configure things.

  53. Standard practice. by ledow · · Score: 1

    Is the sender IP whitelisted? Allow.
    Is the sender IP not presenting a valid reverse DNS name? Block.
    Is the sender IP listed on SpamHaus? Block.
    Does the sender IP not match the domain SPF record (even soft-fail is a fail)? Block.
    Is the sender IP not retrying after being told to try again in five minutes (greylisting)? Block.

    And then you can do things to do with the actual message itself, like DKIM signing, spam-detection, etc.

    Instantly cut out 99.9% of your spam, and at the same time anyone who fails those tests isn't running a mail server worthy of the name in this day and age. If your ISP even ALLOWS you to send email from an address without a valid reverse-DNS, for example, I'd question what the hell they are doing with their systems or why they expect customers to be able to email at all without being blacklisted by someone.

    Anyone who can't pass those tests isn't going to be able to send email to anyone else anyway. It won't just be your company, but almost everyone they communicate with (Google, etc. pretty much do the same run of tests on your name, if not more strict!). And if they aren't bothering to keep their SPF records up to date, I'm surprised that they get mail sent at all.

    But don't, under any circumstances, accept the mail for later delivery. Reject it there and then. Don't faff about wasting resources, providing "proof" that the email was received to the sender, or storing things up that you then aren't sure you should deliver.

    In the small businesses I've set up with email, this literally cuts 99.9% of all spam, and the number of false positives is effectively zero (and usually, as you say, due to idiots not setting / updating their email / domain properly). And when one of those botnets gets hold of your domain and tries to spam you with hundreds of connections a second, you can work through them easily without having to worry about them ending up in mailboxes.

    This is the default setup for things like Postfix on most Linux distros, for example. I fail to believe that those defaults are changed by everyone who sets up a mailserver, or that setups that DON'T confirm to those tests actually send much email to anyone without having problems.

    And, if you really, really, really are a small business that has problems that you can't get around by just using your ISP's recommended method, sticking Google Apps on a domain, or renting a £10/month VPS that does it all for you - WITH THOSE DEFAULTS, and more - is literally chicken-feed for communicating with customers and suppliers.

    If they are idiots, that's their problem. If you want to accept and deliver email that's quite obviously spoofed because you're afraid of catching up their emails by mistake, that's your problem. Only one of those types of problems can be fixed.

    If it comes to it, and you hear complaints from those companies, just whitelist their domains if their business is that important to you. But if they can't even be bothered to work out why, I would guess, at least 10-50% of their email just bounces or never gets to the other end, there's nothing you can do about that.

  54. Set-up a 2-level SPF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've got a spam filter with a relatively high reject score on my incoming mail server. It rejects the most blatant spam with a reply note. All the clients have a spam filter with a much lower reject score, filtering spam and possible spam into spam and quarantine folders. This leaves it up to the user to accept or reject. This seems to have worked very well over the last couple of years.

  55. More spam because of SPF by allo · · Score: 2

    If you have correct SPF, you will most likely get more spam. Why? Someone spams mailservers with your domainname, then it bounces because of failed SPF, and many mailservers are configured wrong, so you will get backscatter spam.

    The irony of this is, that SPF says "it wasn't me" and the wrong configured mailservers then send YOU an answer saying "hey, we're not accepting your mail, because your SPF says it is not your mail".

  56. Verify SPF at the outbound servers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the problem, as the original poster put it, is that many legitimate senders have not configured their SPF records properly, (or maybe they did, but then circumstances changed and the SPF record was not updated,) then it seems to me the most sensible fix is for *sending* mail transfer agents to double-check SPF records before sending mail. This could be very low-impact, since most mail servers only *legitimately* originate mail for a handful of domains, and they would only need to verify the SPF records infrequently (once and hour? once a day?) If only a handful of common mail servers were modified this way, most of these configuration problems would be self-corrected at the source, almost immediately.

    On the server side, if you are asked to send mail from bob@example.com, you lookup the SPF record for example.com and see if you are allowed to send this mail. Then, what you do with this information is up to the admin who installed the mail server, but some options could range from:

            * Brute force: Reject the mail, bounce it back to user with explanation

            * Accept the mail but reply to the user with an annoying message letting them know that their mail server is misconfigured and the recipient might not get it, and suggest they get their mail administrator to fix the problem. [you could even include helpful links to some SPF-help websites right in the mail to reduce the activation energy for the sysadmin] -- this could be done for every bad message, or maybe for every N bad messages for each domain.

            * Same as above, but also rate-limit any outbound mail that fails the SPF check, which might also reduce SPAM you are unintentionally forwarding and make you useless to spammers.

            * NAG the admin: Log the error or email to postmaster@yourdomain, or post to his facebook account explaining to the world what a moron he is. :^)

            *

    In a world where all the legitimate mail senders automatically verify their SPF records from time to time, it seems to me that pretty soon you *could* move to a model where you drop all non-SPF conforming mail, and miss out on very little.

  57. Consequences vs. control... by Shoten · · Score: 1

    Here's the problem, and it's a fundamental problem with the SPF framework, as a business process. The consequences of error should reside with the entity that has the most direct control over what causes or prevents that error. What is happening here is that Entity A has their SPF set up wrong, but potentially all the impact could land on Entity B. SPF isn't rocket science, but it's the kind of thing that needs to be checked periodically and tied tightly into change control processes...in other words, a perfect example of a system that will have issues, in modern IT environments. I don't really have a suggestion, other than a standardized process for detecting events like this and reporting them to the sending organization. But it's hard to notify a company to let them know that their website has been hacked; I imagine it must be horrendously hard to find whomever is in charge of their mail infrastructure to point out to him that he's doing SPF wrong.

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    1. Re:Consequences vs. control... by InvisiBill · · Score: 1

      I don't really have a suggestion, other than a standardized process for detecting events like this and reporting them to the sending organization. But it's hard to notify a company to let them know that their website has been hacked; I imagine it must be horrendously hard to find whomever is in charge of their mail infrastructure to point out to him that he's doing SPF wrong.

      DMARC (which I just learned about from another comment) seems to be the answer to this problem. It's another layer to install and configure, but it allows senders and receivers to communicate about mail authentication.

    2. Re:Consequences vs. control... by Shoten · · Score: 1

      I don't see how it exactly solves the problem, though...it is interesting, however. My take on it is that it helps abstract some of the SPF and DKIM management, making it a good bit more manageable. But the issue isn't entirely about that; it's also about the fact that most organizations don't have any methodologies around managing this kind of thing at all in the first place. A better, easier-to-use steering wheel doesn't help if there's neither a driver nor a driver's seat to sit in.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  58. Label them as SPAM and deliver to SPAM folder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is what we do. Everyone knows they also need to check that folder for legitimate email - by doing this, the bulk of the spam doesn't get in the way of real work that makes it to their inboxes. The subject line of all SPF failed messages has "SPAM message - no or invalid SPF" appended, so that when the user replies to the sender, they get an indirect but nice hint that they look like a spammer.

    Since I'm in IT, and most of my correspondence is with IT folks, I'll often send an extra nice email like "oh and by the way, your SPF is wrong so you look like a spammer". Most people get the hint. :)

  59. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha ha. Try telling that to the VP who does exactly that. Your career is limited.

  60. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by tyr · · Score: 2

    Please, please don't do this. You take SPF, designed as a defensive shield for you, turn it into an offensive weapon and unleash it on an innocent victim every time you send out a "friendly" message like this. Please turn this off now and then Google "joe job" to learn how you are making the problem worse, rather than addressing it in any meaningful way.

    Ignore SPF if you like, but don't use it as an method to select targets to attack with "friendly fire."

  61. Re:We don't reject, but we send some "helpful info by CBravo · · Score: 1

    definately a +1

    --
    nosig today
  62. We reject, but also allow users to get it. by jafo · · Score: 1

    The short answer is: If you tell us that an e-mail from you is not to be trusted, we will honor that request. But if our system falsely catches an e-mail from you, say because of a bad SPF record, we will whitelist that sender.

    We have a custom system I built and haven't yet had time to polish for a open source project (and it needs it before it could be publicly released). It has an awesome feature though...

    Messages are rejected at the SMTP level, for things like SPF, greylisting, and SpamAssassin. The bounce message has a URL that the sender can visit to release the message. I was anticipating this might get abused and have to have a captcha on it, but so far it has not. Actually, it's worse than that, 99+% of people who get this message don't read any further than the subject, which is generated by their mail server, so they usually contact us some other way saying "Your mail server is broken".

    BUT, the killer feature is that our users can go to a website and see the messages sent to them, and "release" them. So if you are looking for an important message no problem! You go to that page, type Control-F and the sender name or subject you are expecting, and click a button, and you have the message. It's kind of like a quarantine, but it's controlled by the sender AND the recipient.

    Now, as far as what we do about senders that have broken SPF... We add them to a whitelist and tell them "You've been whitelisted, but your domain is publishing a notification that says this e-mail is invalid, you probably want your mail server admin to fix this because other places are honoring this as well."

    No big deal, not ideological stands, we just deal with it and report it on.

    Because that's the crucial thing: Your domain is telling me that this e-mail is not to be trusted. The CEO of our company understands that yelling "You can never have a false positive" means that they are going to have to deal with an inbox full of sewage -- they understand what false negatives are.

    Sean