Slashdot Mirror


California Cancels $208 Million IT Overhaul Halfway Through

g01d4 writes "According to the LA Times, 'California's computer problems, which have already cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, have mounted as state officials cut short work on a $208-million DMV technology overhaul that is only half done. The state has spent $135 million total on the overhaul so far. The state's contractor, HP Enterprise Services, has received nearly $50 million of the money spent on the project. Botello said the company will not receive the remaining $26 million in its contract. ... Last week, the controller's office fired the contractor responsible for a $371-million upgrade to the state's payroll system, citing a trial run filled with mishaps. More than $254 million has already been spent.' It's hard not to feel like the Tokyo man in the street watching the latest round of Godzilla the state vs. Rodan the big contractor."

51 of 185 comments (clear)

  1. Sadly by mu51c10rd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And this is the state that has Silicon Valley...you would think there would be a lot of good expertise in the computing arena for the state to tap in to. However, in their defense, this happens constantly in the federal government too. So much money wasted...

    1. Re:Sadly by MrEricSir · · Score: 4, Informative

      In fact, this very scenario has happened a decade before, albet with Oracle instead of HP.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    2. Re:Sadly by TFAFalcon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why finish a project someone is paying you for? Do enough (cheaply) to get 50% of the payout, get fired, form a new company and get hired again.

    3. Re:Sadly by doctor+woot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you would think there would be a lot of good expertise in the computing arena for the state to tap in to.

      Ahahaha, with our government? If they even had the slightest idea of how important it was to stay out of the fucking 1980's with IT equipment that serves critical functions for the state and its citizens, they wouldn't have waited for the problem to "cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars" to do anything about it.

      If they can't get that much straight, how can they possibly hope to know what technical criterion to look for when hiring contractors?

    4. Re:Sadly by Nerdfest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Doesn't that make it IBMs turn next?

    5. Re:Sadly by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Informative

      how important it was to stay out of the fucking 1980's with IT equipment that serves critical functions

      Talk about blanket statements. I suspect that there is quite a bit of 1980s IT equipment in your life that you are not even aware of.

      The problem is not what decade the equipment comes from, it is whether or not the equipment meets its requirements. If equipment from the 1980s is continuing to meet the requirements that governments face today, then there is no reason to spend enormous amounts of tax money to replace that equipment unless doing so will pay for itself before the next upgrade. Unfortunately, there are few cases where such upgrades actually do pay for themselves, so in terms of what is best to do with tax dollars, upgrading old equipment that continues to function as needed is questionable.

      Now, if the equipment is not working, then it is time to replace it. The real problem is that government contracts are not typically given to companies deemed best for the job, and so these situations arise. Contracts are awarded to companies that bid low and to companies that are well-connected, even when better companies are available.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    6. Re:Sadly by St.Creed · · Score: 2

      I'm currently working on an IT project on one of the worse govt departments in my country. They have a reputation for horrible performance, both in their normal operations and in the IT department as well. They were officially reprimanded by the government accounting office a few years back for failure to control their own organisation. The project is a frigging mess, it's the worst project I've ever seen in a professional setting, even compared to municipal IT which is mainly "amateur time".

      The main problem is that this organisation thinks IT is not its core business. So they have no competent people to determine what needs to be done and especially to determine resources. They don't even have an IT department, only an infrastructure support department. And that is the whole problem. I could spend hours discussing the hilarious and horrendous "project" I'm in, but mainly it's a matter of management totally and completely dropping the ball on this.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    7. Re:Sadly by doctor+woot · · Score: 2

      how important it was to stay out of the fucking 1980's with IT equipment that serves critical functions

      Talk about blanket statements. I suspect that there is quite a bit of 1980s IT equipment in your life that you are not even aware of.

      Possibly, but I'm aware that I do use a lot of tech that wasn't invented within the past decade. My last post was ambiguously worded and I apologize, it would have been better to say "not stay in the 1980's". Even people who know nothing about IT understand it's a poor decision to just implement the infrastructure and call it a day. When you're doing something that affects the security of the personal information of millions of people, there's a lot to carefully consider. I've yet to see a politician in California that honestly appreciates this fact.

      The problem is not what decade the equipment comes from, it is whether or not the equipment meets its requirements. If equipment from the 1980s is continuing to meet the requirements that governments face today, then there is no reason to spend enormous amounts of tax money to replace that equipment unless doing so will pay for itself before the next upgrade. Unfortunately, there are few cases where such upgrades actually do pay for themselves, so in terms of what is best to do with tax dollars, upgrading old equipment that continues to function as needed is questionable.

      It's not a matter of overhauling with every single upgrade; on top of maintaining machines as needed it can be as simple as a network-wide software patch. Maintaining IT equipment costs money, period. This isn't some kid's dedicated Counter-Strike server we're talking about here, this is a department that should be getting every cent necessary to ensure integrity. That politicians don't care to pay people who understand this sort of thing the money they ask for in order to watch over these systems is evidenced by them waiting till the problem is costing hundreds of millions of dollars, then paying a few more million dollars to get the problem... not fixed.

      Now, if the equipment is not working, then it is time to replace it.

      I would argue that there are more reasons to upgrade old equipment than it just not working altogether.

      The real problem is that government contracts are not typically given to companies deemed best for the job, and so these situations arise. Contracts are awarded to companies that bid low and to companies that are well-connected, even when better companies are available.

      That's certainly a problem, yes. And that just goes back to my original point, which is if they had even cared at all to understand the technology which they so heavily rely on they wouldn't be jackassing around like that.

    8. Re:Sadly by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      But how much of that is the company's fault and how much is feature creep by the government agency that wanted the work done? Because every time I talk to folks online that work with a company doing work for a government agency I always seem to get the same story "They told us it needed to do X, then a third of the way in suddenly it has to do Y which we hadn't even thought of, and then as the alpha is getting ready suddenly here comes a huge list of "must have" features that basically mean torching the whole thing and starting over".

      Time and time again its the same story, that they keep tacking on more and more things they expect it to do and then complain when its triple over budget after the company already had to start over twice just to add all the extra shit they suddenly demanded!

      Am I saying HP are saints in all this? No not at all but after hearing that story a billion times i want to hear from somebody who was on the project from the start to see if they were hit with a case of featuritis.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. Fallacy of Sunk Costs by Galaga88 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm glad to see that they didn't fall prey too badly to the fallacy of sunk costs. Too many places wouldn't realize they've already lost the money they threw at the project, and no amount of extra spending in the hopes that it will eventually succeed will get that back.

    1. Re:Fallacy of Sunk Costs by tibit · · Score: 2

      I'm not glad to see that people can't see that big IT consulting corporations have all, without exception, degenerated into useless hulks that can't get anything done. Show me any large project that they undertake where the goals were completely met, and the user is happy. It's in the realm of fantasy, basically. Big IT consulting is basically a scam.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    2. Re:Fallacy of Sunk Costs by St.Creed · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Last year a well known IT architect wrote an article titled "The Failure bonus" where he describes how the system for government IT contracts is set up in such a way that failure is rewarded richly, but performing better than specs will lead to unemployment at a rapid pace. It's not that big IT consultants are incompetent, it is that they are very competent at following the money.

      That said: big projects are inherently impossible to complete and everyone in IT knows it. Government knows it too, big projects should be cut down to manageable size or abandoned. Putting out contracts on a "cash on delivery" basis would probably make that a much more viable option for small firms.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
  3. Sounds familiar but on a smaller scale... by Cornwallis · · Score: 5, Informative

    HP screwed over Vermont: http://governor.vermont.gov/newsroom-Vermont-HP-reach-DMV-settlement-gov-shumlin in its attempt to redo the VT DMV.

    Of course, we end up paying for the incompetence that drives the grossly misnamed Department of Information and Innovation...

    1. Re:Sounds familiar but on a smaller scale... by tibit · · Score: 2

      The "king is naked" kind of a moment is when you realize that a lot of those projects could be done in 2-3 years by a dedicated team of 30 people. We're talking about $15M in total personnel costs, assuming you pay $150k gross per person. I'd absolutely love to be in such a team and actually deliver something that makes some local government somewhere more efficient, and their employees happy with the tech. It can be done, just requires proper mindset. Of course the bureaucrats the world over will fuck it up anyway.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    2. Re:Sounds familiar but on a smaller scale... by PRMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or that HP sucks as a software company.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:Sounds familiar but on a smaller scale... by roc97007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or that HP sucks as a software company.

      Or maybe it turned out exactly the way they intended. I mean hey, HP made $50M on the deal.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:Sounds familiar but on a smaller scale... by Shoten · · Score: 2

      RTFA. The contract was awarded to EDS; EDS was a good integrator. Unfortunately, that was back in 2007, just before HP fucked up *backspacebackspacebackspace* bought EDS. (I was there.) HP's applied manufacturing-based practices to the service-based business...things like getting rid of headcount (in cases where those people are 100% dedicated and billable to an account, generating both revenue and profit while fulfilling contractual obligations). So, account after account is now complaining while the people who still work on those accounts are leaving in droves or are miserable.

      On a side note, I saw Ericka Floyd mentioned in the article...that's a bummer. I worked with her a few times when at EDS/HP, and she's a great person. It sucks to see her caught up in the midst of this kind of bullshit. I never quite got what the real purpose of PR people was until she interceded and saved my ass with regard to an analyst that was asking WAY too many of the wrong questions...like asking about how electricity is delivered to military installations.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  4. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by tibit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not about the government. It's all about the useless IT consulting companies. Pretty much every single flashy consulting company billboard/AD that you see at an airport is just a way to milk the gullible and not deliver. This is an across-the-board problem. Nobody wants to fucking do their jobs. The government thinks they don't need the right people to do it, so they hire a contractor. The contractor doesn't want to do the job either, it's not their core competency (nobody knows what it is anyway), so they hire subcontractors. Subcontractors have very little vested interest in anything, and they maybe deliver, maybe not, but due to multiple layers of clueless management, it's of no use anyway. So there you go.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  5. Would like to see this happen more by fermion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If contractors knew that they projects would be cancelled, and maybe even be sued for breech of contract, we may not be wasting money like we are. In my state I see roads being built, software being delivered, all the time on budget and on time. it may not be the best but it is adequate. But it seems to be ok to spec the project inadequately, provide minimal funding knowing that more can be asked for later, just to con the tax payers into accepting a worthless or expensive project.

    We see this all the time in the military. A low estimate is given on a minimally speced out project. Then as the project money is spent, the agencies go back to the congress and ask for more money, saying we already spent this money, and it won' really work the way we need it to. Instead of firing the con artists, and suing the contractors, and accepting the money as lost, we fund it more thus encouraging the fraudulent behavior.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:Would like to see this happen more by steelfood · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but those same companies are hire the politicans on their way out the door, sit them behind a desk and let them collect paychecks indefinitely.

      It's a revolving door. And the middle class, the majority of the taxpayers, are the ones getting spun in circles and flung away.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  6. Um, math? by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was going to use my mod points to mod up the first person who questioned the new math behind how a $208 million dollar project cancelled halfway through already cost $254 million dollars.

    Alas, nobody had yet... and it's just about beer-o-clock here.

    --

    The Digital Sorceress
    1. Re:Um, math? by duranaki · · Score: 2

      I think there are two sets of numbers here. The spent $135M out of $208M for DMV upgrades before canceling. In another example, they spent $254M out of a $371M for payroll system upgrade before canceling it. Still, I'm not sure I would find it surprising to learn the government had spent more than the total after only completing half the work. :)

  7. Somethings wrong with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "The contract was awarded in 2007 to the Texas-based Electronic Data Systems. The company was later bought by Hewlett-Packard and renamed HP Enterprise Services. Hewlett-Packard is now run by Meg Whitman, who during her failed campaign for governor in 2010 promised to save California money with better computer technology."

    I smell something going on here. I'm thinking this may have been a bit too convenient.

  8. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I thought it was an "emoticon" of a large breasted woman giving the finger.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  9. Irony by rgbscan · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is by far the best line of the article....

    "Hewlett-Packard is now run by Meg Whitman, who during her failed campaign for governor in 2010 promised to save California money with better computer technology."

  10. Why $208 million? by maroberts · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Okay, the system presumably has to handle about 30 million drivers and vehicle statistics, as well as other information such as traffic citations. I assume it's only accessed through a few hundred offices plus allow access to authorised systems (police etc) at any one time. Obviously it's got to be reasonably secure and perhaps operate at more than one site to cater for disaster recovery and redundancy. This is not beyond the capabilities of a few large servers to handle (I presume that cloud storage may be out due to security issues). Such a system could supply the information to Windows/Unix or even phone app clients. I assume driving licenses and vehicle ownership records have to be printed and sent from an office somewhere.

    What else is in the scope of the project? Why does it cost several hundred million bucks to develop a new system? I can understand perhaps 10 million to develop and install. The biggest problem I can see is porting the data from the "40 year old antiquated system" to the new one. Someone must be able to explain where the extra £198 million has to go, apart from the contractors pockets.

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

    1. Re:Why $208 million? by Dynedain · · Score: 3, Informative

      The biggest problem I can see is porting the data from the "40 year old antiquated system" to the new one.

      It all goes here.... not only do you have 40 years of data to port, but you also have 40 years of policies and procedures stemming from the old system that have to be enshrined in the new one. You also have to do the port in a way that has 0 downtime as you switch. And, since you can't magically switch hundreds of locations overnight, you have to make sure that the data, policies, and procedures stay in sync between the two systems during the migration period, because every location needs identical information from both systems.

      Combine this with mandates such as "The specs for the new system are to exactly match all the quirks and behaviors of the old system" and you have a recipe for disasters like this.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    2. Re:Why $208 million? by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

      There isn't a DMV per municipality. There are about a hundred and sixty scattered around the state.

      This has been a complaint too. For a state with a population of 38 million is (figure half of them drive) it's about 119,000 per DMV office. At 250 working days a year, that's 475 per office per day, or about 59 people per hour. That shouldn't be that hard, but the lines there are typically 1-3 hours long. They have a reservation system where you can make an appointment in advance. But the last time my registration came up for renewal, there was a problem which required me to visit the DMV instead of renew by mail. I tried to use their reservation system, only to discover that even though I was trying to make an appointment the day after I got the mailed notice, all the nearby DMV offices were booked solid until 3 weeks after the renewal deadline. I ended up making a reservation at some DMV office in the desert 70 miles away (still had to wait in line 45 min), and used the trip as an excuse to do some sightseeing and visit some friends in the area.

      If you have a AAA membership, that's by far the best way to get your DMV stuff done in California (if it's a service they can do - they don't do driving tests and a few other things). I've never had to wait more than 30 min there, and usually they get to me within 5 minutes. They charge a few dollars more, but it's worth it compared to wasting several hours at the DMV.

      In contrast, the RMV in Massachusetts and the DMV in Washington had wait times very similar to the AAA. Massachusetts even puts offices in the mall so parking is convenient and you can drop by while getting other shopping done. So I dunno what California is doing wrong, but whatever it is they're doing it very, very wrong.

  11. Not surprising, at all by boethius · · Score: 2

    California of course is a behemoth of State agencies spread everywhere, not to mention hundreds more various County and Municipal agencies and departments. Just within the scope of the State of California there are massive agencies like the DMV, Health and Human Services (i.e., Welfare), State Parks, Department of Insurance, Franchise Tax Board, and dozens of regulatory agencies and sub-agencies, and the Legislature itself. Across these numerous agencies and departments there are hundreds of thousands of employees and a huge and frequently antiquated technological infrastructure. Most agencies are running independent IT silos and there's very little, if any, connectivity and coordination between these usually very large IT groups. In spite of all this for years the State's CIO was only in his position part-time (huh?) and, while he has since been replaced with a full-time CIO (probably a few times over, by now), none have been successful overhauling the State's horrific IT issues. The State's payroll system is among the most notorious in the nation and believed to be at least 30 years old and running on rock-solid but extremely EXTREMELY antiquated hardware. This is why certain mainframe programmers and administrators will NEVER lose their jobs - lifetime, guaranteed employment maintaining an archaic piece of hardware. It's so bad that when then-Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger threatened an across-the-board 20% pay cut to State workers to balance the budget (don't laugh; the State HAS to have a balanced budget but you know what it does? Never passes a budget or passes it 6-12 months after it was supposed to). State Controller John Chiang fired back, proclaiming the State's payroll system "couldn't handle" an across-the-board wage adjustment. Can you imagine? Over the last 10-15 years you're easily looking at billions thrown at overhauling California's ancient IT infrastructure, with likely tens if not hundreds of thousands of unique, probably very hard to support applications "vital" to its hundreds of State departments and agencies. The progress it has made with these billions? Save the overhaul of the HHS system - a huge, mega-hundred-million expense that was also fraught with major major problems - the State is showing no signs it is making serious progress to refine its systems and infrastructure.

  12. Government + Consultants = Failure by Tridus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is entirely normal when you take a government that chronically under-staffs on IT and relies on consultants. They go and try to do something big, and they don't have the expertise in house to deal with it. Enter more consultants, particularly of the variety that like to write a lot of powerpoint presentations and bill a lot of hours but never actually deliver a bloody thing. Of course, since the government doesn't have enough IT expertise to actually figure that out, the high level senior managers that love powerpoint and high-level mumbo jumbo MBA talk think everything is going well.

    And then, scope creep happens. It follows one of three lines:
    1. Election happens. New government comes in, with new priorities and a new way they want to do things. This is obviously bad for a huge project in progress.
    2. The existing project has a new department join in, which means new managers and thus a new set of demands. Instead of starting up a new project, they try to shoehorn those into the current project to satisfy management's desire for design by a giant committee of managers.
    3. Someone realizes that the project didn't actually have all the requirements properly captured in the first place, which is pretty much inevitable in my experience.

    You'd think at some point the government would learn that they can't manage projects in this way and rely on consultants to sort it out, but they never do. Of course, in the case of #1 or #2 even in house IT doesn't really save you, but in my experience they tend to be more flexible than a giant Enterprise consulting outfit (mostly because there's no contract they can hide behind to deliver X, even if X doesn't actually solve the problem that prompted the project in the first place).

    The whole process is a giant mess.

    --
    -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    1. Re:Government + Consultants = Failure by Yakasha · · Score: 2

      This is entirely normal when you take a government that chronically under-staffs on IT and relies on consultants. They go and try to do something big, and they don't have the expertise in house to deal with it.

      Really close here. Every successful project I've been on that utilized a high % of contractors had insanely awesome people in house running the show. But Sacramento's top IT positions cap out under $100k... with no stock options.

      Not gonna happen.

  13. obamacare is not contractor and it fixes a lot of by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    obamacare is not contractor and it fixes a lot of stuff.

    Also the obamacare exchanges are like new stores with more choice then in the past.

  14. Re:Nothing to see here... by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >"The DMV project began in 2006, according to the California Technology Agency. Instead of using 40-year-old, "dangerously antiquated technology," DMV staffers were supposed to get a modern, user-friendly system that minimized the risk of "catastrophic failure," according to a DMV report on the project."

    This encapsulates solving multiple problems at the same time. This cannot be done. You update large systems by plotting a path through incremental improvements that get deployed, tested and fixed before the next increment, so that get you to where you need to be. It might not seem like the optimal path, but anything involving a switch over of technology, UI, back end, infastructure and buckets of code all at the same time is simply never going to work.

    In the case of the DMV, it might involve unifying disjoint databases pair by pair until you have only one, while maintaining the same interface to the heterogeneous clients. Then one by one converting the heterogeneous clients to a standard back end interface. Then one by one adding the features of a client to the grand unified client and switching over that system, until the GUC has all the features for all the clients are new client. Then one by one, updating the organizational procedures to make them better, and updating the GUC while doing so. You can make these changes one by one. You can roll back one step if it doesn't work right the first time. You can measure progress by the number of working updates, not in how much less non-working the global-replace-systems is today.

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  15. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by tibit · · Score: 2, Informative

    Look, when you're an IT consultant company, your first job is to do a discovery project that is aimed precisely at defining exactly what the project is -- in absence of proper requirements. Heck, if it's a bidding process, you must also do due diligence -- that would typically involve talking to the customer(s), talking to their employees, etc. It's your own fault, as a consulting company, if you can't deliver. You must be able to tell that the customer is too clueless to make it work. It's your fucking job.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  16. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by steelfood · · Score: 2

    Nobody wants to fucking do their jobs.

    That about sums it up right there.

    --
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  17. Paper. Lots of Paper. by Rande · · Score: 5, Informative

    Having worked on govt projects before, it's all spent on :
    a) Management. Lots of it. About 5 times as many managers/sub-contract managers/advisors etc than there will be coders. Because the more management a project has, the harder it is to blame any one person.
    b) Paper. Lots of paper. The amount of pages generated on specifications, revisions, reports, recommendations will be able 10 times the number of _lines_ of code created. All to show that no taxpayers money was wasted.
    c) Tendering. It costs a lot to tender a bid, which reduces the competition to only the big ones who can afford to throw a million at a 1in5 chance. Whereas, if they were allowed to go to a small consultancy who only has 30 employees, they'd be able to get a much better price.
    d) Changes. The requirements are often so written in very complex language that noone really understands it, and then they come along with changes every 2 months which require 3 months of recoding because they didn't fully understand what they were asking for to start with.
    e) User acceptance. Don't underestimate the ability of a low level govt employee to refuse to use the new system because 'I've done it this way for 30 years and it worked just fine! This doesn't work like the old one did.'

  18. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by Virtucon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oh good grief what a bunch of bunk. Do you know why big contracting companies exist? It's because companies have lost faith in their internal organizations to deliver. Plain and simple. I've seen it in dozens of organizations in my career where an entrenched group builds a castle of "can't." So, the execs hire an outside firm not only to get what they want but to also force these little castles to actually deliver something. Lazy contractors? Please, how about lazy employees who feel that they hold the keys and as long as they keep pushing back and feel empowered so nobody is going to mess with their careers even though they may be doing such innovative things like writing System 360 Assembly Language. It's everywhere and it's not just in IT, people in this country have become lazy and foolish relying on attitude rather than customer service and trying to do a good job.
    Every large organization has this problem and IT isn't just one of the areas where dead space can occur. So, the big companies come in, push change, make big promises that sometimes are overblown. In the case of California I could probably guess that the specifications of what were required were done by bureaucrats who have no clue on how to spec out requirements or were based on something that wasn't possible to build. Are there bad firms? yes, but are there bad customers? hell yes and they can make it absolutely impossible to deliver anything because the same people who have to approve or test anything are usually overworked, or not committed to the project leaving the contractor and subsequently the whole project in limbo. That usually leaves to failure despite the best efforts of all parties involved.

    So before you blame consulting companies for this failure, remember they wouldn't exist if people were doing their job or came to the realization that their skills and abilities are out of alignment with what their management expects.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  19. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'll never look at that word the same way again :)

    --
    Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
  20. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    This. I hired a popular 'big' construction company to do some renovations on my business. They got as far as fucking everything up and then holding on to the money as long as possible. It took a lawsuit and a solid WEEK in civil court to get them to give ANY of the money back. Once they were court ordered to give the money back, they received extension after extension and after all was said and done, I had my money back and then had to shop for other people to do the work.

    Guess what? Very few of them would even continue the conversation after they learned who my company was. So I sat there for three months without a physical location for my business, while the city told me over and over I had to do something with it. Only through extensive paperwork and documentation was I able to prove that I was pretty much blackballed from all the local construction companies. I ended up paying something like 3x the original cost (basically 3x more than market value) for the work.

    So you're basically screwed. If you retaliate legally for them not doing their job JUST to end up with your money back, you get blackballed and no one will deal with you unless you pay them a ton more. If you don't retaliate legally, you've basically wasted the money. This is probably where they stand right now.

  21. Could it be the government agency's fault? by cyberidian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Could it be that the way the government contracts are structured and micromanaged by government agencies is the problem and not the contractor or their programmers? I work for a company that provides government services under contract to the State of California and the government agency that oversees us micromanages us so much that it is often impossible to to develop systems properly. The 4 biggest problems I see are 1)constantly changing requirements that are written by government employees with little or no IT/web knowledge 2) contracts secured by being the lowest bidder which do not allow us to have the resources to properly design or test the system we are building 3) forcing us to work with other contractors including non-profit ones that are "donating" their services (very strange to me really) and that provide inferior IT systems we must use or integrate. 4) Requirements, features and design being dictated by government agencies or advocacy groups with little knoweldge of system design & development. For example, we are currently forced to support an application written by one of these "non-profits" that uses ASP classic and violates every current IT standard. My company has the IT staff & talent to completely rewrite the application but we are not allowed to and must instead support and integrate the badly written one that was donated to the state. It is unclear why this non-profit is allowed to force the agency & us to use their product, but it seems they have political connections that make it so. I believe also that government contracts almost always go to the lowest bidder and not the company with the most expertise. Often a contractor is the lowest bidder because they plan to cut corners and not follow good IT practices, or have not estimated costs correctly. Also as a web developer for a company that works under government contracts, I cannot count the number of times we have received requirements for a website from people that have little or no computer skills, let alone web skills or experience. You would think in this day and age that the government employees providing requirements for government IT systems would have at least basic IT knowledge, but this is often not the case. I am not exaggerating that I have received requirements from people that have no Excel, Word or even email skills and have obviously barely even used the Internet. Many people in the top levels of government management are older (baby boomers) or were promoted for reasons other than great IT skills. They often have no professional experience with developing IT Systems, ADA or other required standards and yet they are the one writing the criteria for the contracts and the system requirements. State agencies also often demand that large amounts of money be spent on "usability studies" or other commitees where a lot of people discuss and dictate what the IT contractor should do in building the new system. The people running these studies often have very poor IT skills themselves and have little experience designing IT systems, but they often have an enormous say in how the system is designed. By the time the IT contractor's development staff is involved in the project, everything is already specified by non-IT government people and between that and the contractor management trying to save every dime (therefore not providing resource for testing), it is not really possible to build a quality system. I say all of this inspite of the fact that the State of California actually has a good Department of Technology Services that provides great ADA compliant web templates. The California State government is so large that even with a good DTS department, the management and staff at specific agencies providing the requirements for a new system may have no knoweldge or interaction with that department and never involve them in creating the contract or project requirements. I think the solution to this is the state should be involving its DTS department in creating all contracts and requirements for new systems projects and ind

  22. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by Bigby · · Score: 2

    Companies lost faith in their internal organizations? No, chicken shit unknowledgeable managers (not companies) don't want to take responsibility for doing anything more complex than a CRUD service, so they send it to Accenture and IBM. It is a big blame game and a web of CYAs.

  23. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by RocketRabbit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think you've been reading too much fiction. The discovery and due diligence processes are there for the benefit of the customer, in order to make it appear that you know what you're doing with their project, even when their project is a mess - which is most of the time.

    If you tell the customer that they are clueless, you probably lost the contract. So, you have to pussyfoot around and figure out how you can make any progress at all, despite the fact that your management, and their management are both fighting you every step of the way.

    You probably believe in the ghost called Minority Shareholder Lawsuits too.

  24. Wait What? by Greyfox · · Score: 2
    They shut down a project before it was a couple billion dollars over budget? That's blinding efficiency by government standards! HP must have really, really sucked for that to have happened. I'm gong to have to go look at the story.

    Oh, I see. It started under EDS auspices a few years back. Pretty light on details other than that, but let me guess, EDS proposed Citrix as a solution right out of the gate and set up the server on some 286 that they found in Ross Perot's attic. Am I getting warm? I'm pretty sure I'm getting warm, because EDS is a one-trick pony, and their trick sucks. Doesn't matter if you're setting up an accounting system or a next generation war ship, EDS will find SOME way to install Citrix on it. I'd say "and make it suck" but that's kind of redundant when you're talking about Citrix!

    Too bad for the Government EDS is pretty much the only game in town if you need some IT contracting done. Enjoy your Citrix!

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  25. Bilking Government is an Art by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

    And companies like HP, L3, Cisco, SAIC, and others, make Michelangelo look like my dog with a crayon.

  26. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by sakshale · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is that you are both right!

    Just look at the new California high speed rail system and how it went from a simple concept to a bloated monster.

    Both teams are screwing up and they will both blame the other team for the failure.

    --
    For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious and wrong.
  27. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by Lije+Baley · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are some cases also where this misalignment of skills and management expectations is more of a management deficiency. Many organizations have technical people who are quite willing and capable, but they have been pigeon-holed and beaten down by policies which incentivize apathy. I have worked with long-time developers in quasi-government jobs who have skills only on legacy systems, and I have had the pleasure of helping them participate in the development of modern SOA interfaces. Most of these people just need an opportunity to learn, grow, and feel like their contributions will be meaningful. And it is not expensive, in fact if it looks expensive you are doing it wrong! You don't need or want conventional "training" for them, and if it is done right, it can cost little or nothing in extra time. These people have a goldmine of lost productivity to tap into -- productivity that poor management has beaten out of them and that good management can cash in on.

    --
    Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
  28. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by Beeftopia · · Score: 2

    Problem 1: Sales team says yes to everything the customer wants.
    Problem 2: The business managers think anything tech-related is trivial. Commoditized. Already been done before. Simple to implement.
    Problem 3: Uncooperative government employees who don't want to be bothered or want to protect their little empire.

    These are very difficult issues.

    Re: Problem 1 - if our sales team doesn't nod eagerly at every requirement, someone else's team will. The customer can't tell if he's being lied to or not.
    Re: Problem 2 - business managers like to look at things in the aggregate. BUT - the devil's in the details. And getting the right people is very difficult. You need a talented business manager to understand what what is complex, what is possible, what is impossible.
    Re: Problem 3 - You have to find a way to circumvent many of the government employees / chieftains with this attitude. It requires buy-in from top management. But if it's a powerful sysadmin chieftain who doesn't want his empire f--ked with, well... you're going to need a full separate testbed on which to deploy and test the system. Hard to do if you're working almost totally on the client site.

    But ultimately, to the business, it's about getting paid. And someone's been paid 100's of millions so far. So, from the business side, that would be considered a success. That's a problem too, if you're the customer trying to get a quality final product..

  29. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by Bill+Dog · · Score: 2

    My experience is that the problem is too much govt. oversight. At least in my industry they don't say okay we need a system to do this, how much will it cost, how will you implement it, okay, that looks fine, now go ahead and do it! It's no I want it done this way, and then two weeks later I want it done that way, and then I want it totally changed to this, and now that.

    The unethicalness of govt. contracting co.'s is in saying sure whatever to all of that, because they get paid all the same. I get paid all the same too, but I want to get something done. And so do my coworkers.

    The problem is that for the govt. reps, it's not their money, they don't give a shit, and they're unaccountable so they don't have to. They can use it as an ego-stroking fest, because the contracting company will worship their every word as long as the funding spigot stays open. So none of the big-wigs in either party to the transaction care if anything ever gets done.

    --
    Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
  30. Re: Typical of the Federal Government too by lymond01 · · Score: 2

    Well, a contractor experienced supporting a particular industry would find the processes in place and help the customer learn about what can be done to improve them. Most customers moving to new tech won't know what to implement, they just know things need to be more efficient. As a contractor it is up to you to NOT do what the customer tells you, but to convince them to use the best solution for the problem.

  31. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by erp_consultant · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "If the customers don't know what they want, you teach them" - Umm...if the customer doesn't know what they want then the project is in deep and immediate trouble. It is the customers business to run and if they don't know what they want they had damn well better figure it out before they spend a boatload of money on a team of consultants.

    I have worked on many large projects, some with government agencies some with large private companies, and the most successful ones have a common thread. The common thread is that the critical project decisions are a collaborative effort, not simply punted to the consultants to say "here, you figure it out". If a company has management that is unwilling or unable to make decisions that company will fail. I don't care how many consultants you bring in, if the management cannot articulate how the business is currently run and what the future goals are the project will fail.

    Are there shitty consultants out there? Sure. Just like there are company executives that have no business running a lemonade stand, never mind a multi-billion dollar company or large government office. To succeed you need talent on both sides.

    Some of the government IT systems that I have been exposed to are arcane, to say the least. Often they have little or no documentation and are extremely complex. Many of the agencies are under funded and under staffed. Talent and motivation, frankly, are sometimes lacking. Basically it's a difficult environment to work in.

    Really big projects like this have a high failure rate. There are a multitude of reasons, some of them above. I suspect that both sides share in the blame.

  32. Re:Typical of the Federal Government too by tibit · · Score: 2

    If your management is fighting you, you have already lost the battle -- you're working for the wrong bosses. As for their management: that's why you hire the right people who can set the customer straight while the customer is thinking all the time that they are in charge. Manipulating career bureaucrats is easy -- they are all the same, after all. You only need those who know how to pull it off working for you. That's all. I've heard first hand from a small European consulting company that undertook a few out of the view but significant projects, and they had two psychologists on staff -- one specializing in negotiations and another one specializing in profiling. I think a couple private investigators were also temporarily retained to figure out the exact political pressures in play. A couple weeks into the bid review process they had a pretty good handle about the personalities of all the key people who they were interfacing with on the customer end, and the bosses above those people. The competitors didn't even stand a chance.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.