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Are Plastic Bag Bans Making People Sick?

theodp writes "A paper by Wharton's Jonathan Klick and Joshua Wright suggested that San Francisco's eco-friendly ban on plastic bags might actually be killing people. Klick and Wright found that food-borne illnesses in San Francisco increased 46% after the bag ban went into effect in 2007, with no such uptick in neighboring counties. Most likely, the authors concluded, this was due to the fact that people were putting their food into dirty reusable bags and not washing them afterward. But Tomas Aragon, an epidemiologist at UC Berkeley and health officer for the city of San Francisco, begs to differ, arguing that in order to establish a link between the bag ban and illnesses, the authors would have to show that the same people who are using reusable bags are also the ones getting sick. Aragon offers an alternative hypothesis for the recent rise in deaths related to intestinal infections, noting that a large portion of the cases in San Francisco involve C. difficile enterocolitis, a disease that's often coded as food-borne illness in hospitals which has become more common in lots of places since 2005, all around the U.S., Canada, and Europe (for yet-unexplained reasons). 'The increase in San Francisco,' he suggests, 'probably reflects this international increase.'"

33 of 533 comments (clear)

  1. That's funny.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In Ireland that didn't happen when they introduced a levy on plastic bags years ago and their usage plummeted.
    Might I humbly suggest the cause lies elsewhere? Such as the original food quality. [insert nauseating overused quote about correlation!=causality]

    1. Re:That's funny.... by JustOK · · Score: 5, Funny

      Apathy in America? Who cares? Seriously, who does care? I'm too lazy to look it up.

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    2. Re:That's funny.... by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The rest of Europe too. Bags are mostly banned there but the population isn't dropping like flies.

      This study is flawed, methinks.

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    3. Re:That's funny.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I've done a study of my own as well, one the likes of this one, and I've found that most of the wars, massacres and assassinations were my fault. Why? Well, for most of the occurrences (like 99%) I slept that day/night. Coincidence? Think not, statistics don't lie.

      Some people just overreach for causality. I used to think that most who did were conspiracy theorists (aka loonies), but more and more often I see studies like this one and wonder... How the hell can I get payed for crap like this as well?

    4. Re:That's funny.... by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The rest of Europe too. Bags are mostly banned there but the population isn't dropping like flies.

      This study is flawed, methinks.

      The paper doesn't say anything about the population dropping like flies. Do you have statistics for food-based illness in Europe before and after a similar ban?

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    5. Re:That's funny.... by Jetra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those things are about as dishwasher friendly as a cat with a scratching post. My question is why aren't they using paper bags? Those things are far better than any reusable bag I've ever had. On the plus side, they're multipurpose as well as 100/% recyclable.

    6. Re:That's funny.... by xaxa · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Those things are about as dishwasher friendly as a cat with a scratching post. My question is why aren't they using paper bags? Those things are far better than any reusable bag I've ever had. On the plus side, they're multipurpose as well as 100/% recyclable.

      Most supermarkets round here (and most in Europe) have two kinds of reusable bag -- one that's sold for between 10-50p (depending on taxes), and is essentially a thicker plastic bag with better handles, like one you might get from a luxury clothes shop.

      The other kind is £1 or more, and made from some kind of durable plastic sheeting. It's not possible to screw these up into a ball, and they last pretty much forever.

      (Paper bags, if used only once, can be worse for the environment as they're heavier, so the transport cost is greater.)

    7. Re:That's funny.... by Plasmoid2000ad · · Score: 5, Interesting

      http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/plastic-bag-levy-nets-166m-in-10-years-185605.html http://www.hpsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/Gastroenteric/Clostridiumdifficile/CdifficileSurveillance/CdifficileEnhancedSurveillance/Reports/File,13565,en.pdf Shows a rise in C Diff in the last 2 years, but long after introduction of plastic bag levy. Also shows that most cases are still sourced as Hospital based infections. Seriously... both are the first links on a Google search. Lack of sources is hardly a defense for you snarky comment and bout of laziness.

    8. Re:That's funny.... by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why the hell would I wash a reusable cloth shopping bag. I don't stick slices of bread in it, I stick a packaged loaf of bread in it. I don't stick unbagged fruit and vegetables, they are all separately bagged. I can't imagine walking up to the meat section and start throwing unpacked chunks of meat into the bag, all of it is individually packed. The mind boggles at pouring milk into the bag rather than getting a sealed container.

      I've been using them for years, they are still pretty much clean, I might have cleaned one bag when there was a spill but that was it. No smells or odours from the bag, no weird growths and no illness. Me thinks the idiot neither does the shopping nor the cooking. Rinse all fruit and vegetable prior to eating or cooking. Check for dirty packages prior to storing in pantry or fridge and give them a wipe over if neccesary, pretty rare.

      Next people will be going nuts over how dirty and disease ridden money is and handling it whilst handling your groceries.

      --
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    9. Re:That's funny.... by urdak · · Score: 4, Informative

      On what planet do people actually have time to hand-wash a dozen bags each week? Not on mine... So nobody I know ever washes these things. When they *look* dirty (which might be too late) people throw them away.

      Even when you use a reusable bag, the sensible thing to do with certain kinds of food - especially uncooked meat - is to put them in a plastic bag. This plastic bag will protect the reusable bag, your car, and your fridge, from being contaminated.

      In any case, this whole ban on plastic bags is nothing short of idiocy. Plastic bags *are* reusable, and people (e.g., me) do reuse them all the time, for anything from collecting garbage, carrying wet clothes from the pool, collecting dog excrement or cat litter, etc., etc. If people won't have these bags from the supermarket, they would buy them anyway. Heck, when was the last time you saw anyone throwing away plastic shopping bags, without reusing them first?

    10. Re:That's funny.... by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sometimes packages leak. If buy meat in plastic wrap on styrofoam trays it can be an issue. I tend to buy the vacuum packed stuff though, since it is easier to chuck in the freezer.

    11. Re:That's funny.... by TWX · · Score: 4, Informative

      Those crappy $0.99 "reusable" bags that are not much more than the disposable bags they replaced aren't worth using.

      We bought some heavy canvas bags. The handles are stitched down the sides of the bags to the bottoms. They don't break, they machine wash, and they hold a lot more content than those crappy bags hanging at the grocery store registers.

      The bags we use came from the crafting store. They're sold as bags to be decorated with fabric paint. Ours are just plain, but we bought them there because they were a lot less expensive than buying similar bags elsewhere.

      --
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    12. Re:That's funny.... by lxs · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sheesh, talk about first world problems! Just tell your gardener to climb up and get it.

    13. Re:That's funny.... by Dasher42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't think you apprehend the scale of the problem.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

    14. Re:That's funny.... by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a 45% increase. For example, previously 2 people out of every 1000 (or even 100,000) may have died. Now, it's 3 out of a 1000 (or even 100,000). Still sure that someone would have noticed?

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    15. Re:That's funny.... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The rest of Europe too. Bags are mostly banned there but the population isn't dropping like flies.

      This study is flawed, methinks.

      Actually, most of Europe has a big problem with C. difficile enterocolitis, so it is quite possible that reusable bags could be a common source of transmission. Read carefully what the epidemiologists are saying. They are not saying that the bags are not the cause of this. They are saying that there isn't the proper data to determine if the bags are the cause of it. In other words, until a proper study is conducted, you cannot claim the bags are the source of the transmission, nor can you claim the bags are not the source of the transmission.

      To paraphrase Schrodinger "Until a valid study is done, the bag is and is not the source of the transmission."

    16. Re:That's funny.... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      The paper doesn't say anything about the population dropping like flies.

      It says that 5.4 additional people died. I would like to see the other 0.6 of the last person to die.

      I am not sure if their conjectured mechanism is plausible. We have a ban where I live (San Jose, CA) and plastic bags are still allowed for produce, meat, etc. The law in SF is the similar. So the reusable bag doesn't actually touch the food. It only touches the packaging or wrapping.

    17. Re:That's funny.... by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or we could just get over the nonsense of the plastic bag bans. There are two problems with plastic bags, the first is simply littering (which is relatively easy to solve), but the main problem is that "they're made from oil and don't biodegrade". This is a GOOD THING. What do we do with oil? Either leave it in the ground (unlikely, seeing as there's money to be made), burn it (very bad for the environment, as we know) or turn it into plastics. Plastics do not pump carbon into the atmosphere in anything like the way burning oil does, and the failure to biodegrade is a bonus, it means that our discarded plastics, if disposed of correctly will simply sit there in managed landfill doing precisely nothing. Good for the atmosphere, and a future source of plastics when the oil runs out.

      I really don't see the origin of the plastic bag demonisation, other than newspapers and politicians enjoying an easy bandwagon that makes it look like they're being proactive without actually having to change anything or annoy the oil lobby.

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  2. Corretlate with more cities to prove or disprove by brunes69 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are many many cities in both the USA and Canada (and probably Europe) that have banned plastic bags. If you want to prove your case, then you should be able to point to simmilar correlation of increase of illness in those cities with the start of these bans as well. If, on the other hand, there is no such correlation in these other cities, then this has nothing to do with plastic bags at all and is something else happening in SF.

    I would be willing to wager the latter.

  3. Authors are lawyers by schneidafunk · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you go to the source paper you'll notice both authors are from law school. So, that being said, why are they writing about a medical issue and using questionable statistics?

    Here is the abstract:

    "Recently, many jurisdictions have implemented bans or imposed taxes upon plastic grocery bags on environmental grounds. San Francisco County was the first major US jurisdiction to enact such a regulation, implementing a ban in 2007. There is evidence, however, that reusable grocery bags, a common substitute for plastic bags, contain potentially harmful bacteria. We examine emergency room admissions related to these bacteria in the wake of the San Francisco ban. We find that ER visits spiked when the ban went into effect. Relative to other counties, ER admissions increase by at least one fourth, and deaths exhibit a similar increase. "

    --
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    1. Re:Authors are lawyers by schneidafunk · · Score: 5, Informative

      I generally am skeptical of anyone publishing claims that are outside their field of expertise. As the rebuttal from Tomas J. Aragon, MD, DrPH, Health Officer, explained there are some serious defects in their study:

      "The basic study flaw is that persons that use reusable bags frequently may not be the same persons that were diagnosed with gastrointestinal bacterial infections in their study. This is the reason epidemiologists will not use ecological studies to test causal hypotheses. At best, ecologic studies raise epidemiologic causal hypotheses but cannot test them."

      --
      Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
  4. Easy Solution - make the bags out of brass by emil · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A "bag" of woven metal could take advantage of the oligodynamic effect. Problem solved.

  5. Bag bans are foolish feel-goodism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the wrong approach to environmentalism. We need to focus on the big stuff, not on feel-good tokenism like bag bans or super-duper biodegradable coffee cups.

    Does the small stuff help? Yes. But we are stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.

    Want to make disposable bags less of a problem? Let's encourage people to reuse them for small wastebaskets and dog poop pickup. This keeps purpose-bought bags from being made and out of the landfills. I also use them as a packing material, in place of wadded paper or packing peanuts.

    Chinese factories are busy pumping untreated toxic effluent directly into rivers which drain to the oceans. Let's stop pretending that Mother Earth's greatest menace is a plastic bag.

    What is the ecological footprint of a hospital admission? Maybe, for reasons described in TFA, bag bans aren't quite as bad as everybody says - we still know they're getting people sick because busy people don't always wash bags properly - and people as a whole never will. The cross-contamination vector has been well studied by the foodservice industry.

    Let's focus on real environmentalism, not on tokenism designed to make yuppies feel good about themselves.

    1. Re:Bag bans are foolish feel-goodism by An+dochasac · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is the wrong approach to environmentalism. We need to focus on the big stuff, not on feel-good tokenism like bag bans or super-duper biodegradable coffee cups.

      Does the small stuff help? Yes. But ...

      Yes...But... you should have quit while you were ahead. The small stuff IS the big stuff. "5 bags a week," you say. "No big deal." but there are 1 million others in San Francisco who could say the same thing as could 38 million in California, 300 million in the US, 7 billion in the world. (Yea I know let's suppose only 1/6th of the world's population are wealthy enough to throw away plastic every week, that's only 52 billion bags a year, no big deal right?) Except that it is. We've only been able to produce cheap disposable plastic for a couple of decades and already our oceans are filling with plastic.

      Plastic bag bans work and the biggest unintended side-effect is that it will stir up a bunch of self-righteous lawyers paid no-doubt by the bubble-bag industry. I live in Ireland and I've seen this work. In fact of all of the environmental campaigns in my lifetime, only the installation of scrubbers on a nearby coal-power plant (also a "no brainer") had a more direct and dramatic impact than Ireland's plastic bag ban-- this in a country which did not benefit from the "Keep America Beautiful" campaign where Iron Eyes Cody finally guilted enough whiny white Americans out of being jerks to make a difference for a while. I'm not asking everyone to travel to the southern ocean and stop whaling and oil spills. Just don't be a jerk. It isn't as difficult as our nation's cultural inertia makes it seem.

    2. Re:Bag bans are foolish feel-goodism by NotBorg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Speaking of stepping over dollars for pennies, I'd rather go to the store less often. If we have to make everything about bags then reducing the number of bags used could also be accomplished by not having to purchase shit that was designed to break and be replaced within six to eight months. We shouldn't just count the bags themselves but the stuff that we bring home in them.

      I've always wondered why the environmental evangelism only cares about cars, solar panels, and plastic shopping bags. Stop taxing my bags and start taxing products that just don't last. We have the data, we know what products last a long time and we know that "modern" versions of them won't last a long time. For god sake we know how to engineer better products.

      For example. I have a coffee grinder that I've been using for around 10~12 years. I consider myself lucky to have such a good quality product. A week ago it started making more noise than usual. After years of faithful service it's finally giving out. I know that if I buy a new one--even from the same brand--it will probably last a year at best. When you consider that most of today's products fit in that category of 1/10th the lifespan they should have.... is buying 10 times as much shit really a good idea?

      Crappy products should be taxed, if not illegal. Someone should tell Washington that it's not all about cars and shopping bags.

      I remember when CFLs were just starting to become well known. They literally did last for years. I got them because I was tired of standing precariously on a chair to change an incandescent light every two months. I didn't buy them for the sake of mother earth. I purchased them because they genuinely were better products. CFLs used to last. Every one of the CFLs I've purchased in the last year has had to be replaced. Is the energy saved still going to offset the environmental cost of manufacturing, distribution, and landfills considering your projections originally assumed a much longer lifespan?

      Wake the fuck up America, we need to stop the fraud, waste, and abuse that exists in nearly every market. Nearly everything you have should be lasting longer and we need our government to make that happen. For the sake of the consumer and for the sake of our planet. Get your politically inclined environmental hippies doing something useful (besides legalizing marijuana) and lets get the campaign for better products going.

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  6. Whoa whoa whoa by paiute · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hold it right there with your reasonable alternate hypothesis. We already have the answer we want. Plastic bag ban = neohippie commies = Liberals = certain death.

    Sincerely,
    Roger Ailes

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  7. Yeah, a paper on public health by a law professor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    whose other papers include:

    - legal abortion turned your daughter into a herpes-ridden slut
    - helping poor people treat their diabetes just leads to more fatties, yo
    - health insurance mandates are so bad that they drive people to drink
    - hey, you know what would really solve our health care problems? Tort reform.

  8. Re:What about paper bags? by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not routinely washing a reusable bag is a plausible source for disease

    Just an observation: Doesn't food usually have its own packaging/wrappers to protect it from the filthy bags?

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  9. Re:What about paper bags? by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can't vouch for San Francisco, but in the UK, the supermarkets have always fought against plastic bag bans. Which suggests to me you are inventing a conspiracy where there isn't one.

  10. Re:What about paper bags? by MarioMax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just an observation: Doesn't food usually have its own packaging/wrappers to protect it from the filthy bags?

    Fruits and vegetables don't usually come prepackaged, at least in the US. Most meats are packaged, but also tend to leak. Just about everything else comes prepackaged.

  11. Re:What about paper bags? by s0nicfreak · · Score: 4, Informative

    The paper bags are reusable at home though; plastic bags are really good for little else than trash bags, and the store bags have become so thin that they tear by the time I get my groceries put away. Paper bags, on the other hand, can be reused for countless things; I make them into books, cards, writing paper, etc. etc. Also you can throw paper bags into a home compost pile.

  12. Bathing by sycodon · · Score: 4, Funny

    San Fran has a fairly low incidence of people bathing regularly.

    At least that's what my nose told me the last time I was there.

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    1. Re:Bathing by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      San Fran has a fairly low incidence of people bathing regularly.

      At least that's what my nose told me the last time I was there.

      Well joking aside, something that people are forgetting is that California and their wonderful love of all things organic and of course there are plenty of idiots who do organic gardening with unpurified human waste. So cross contamination would be very easy to pick up that way, I seem to remember that there was a huge outbreak of e.coli in europe regarding brussel sprouts a few years back linked to exactly that.

      When you get contamination into a plastic bag that's not cleaned, or sterilized, you're cross contaminating everything else you put in there as well. The ministry of health here in Ontario put out a similar warning after a small outbreak. I think it was 15 or 25 ill linked to a reusable bag and a dinner party, I'll have to see if I can find the release on it. It was back 6ish years ago.

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