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Homeland Security Stole Michael Arrington's Boat
An anonymous reader writes "Michael Arrington, founder of TechCrunch, lives near Seattle and bought a boat there. He ordered it from a company based near him, but across the border in Canada. Yesterday, the company tried to deliver it to him, and it had to clear customs. An agent for the Department of Homeland Security asked him to sign a form. The form contained information about the boat, including its cost. The price was correct, but it was in U.S. dollars rather than Canadian dollars. Since the form contained legal warnings about making sure everything on it is true and accurate, Arrington suggested to the agent that they correct the error. She responded by seizing the boat. 'As in, demanded that we get off the boat, demanded the keys and took physical control of it. What struck me the most about the situation is how excited she got about seizing the boat. Like she was just itching for something like this to happen. This was a very happy day for her. ... A person with a gun and a government badge asked me to swear in writing that a lie was true today. And when I didn't do what she wanted she simply took my boat and asked me to leave.'"
in the years that I imported horse manure.
Vote from the rooftops
I dont remember the last time we had a dept that was so pathetic, inefficient, useless, corrupt and annoying as the Dept. of Homeland Security. Why do these people even exist? I dont feel any safer with them being around at all. Just yesterday there was an article in Slate about how insecure airport perimeter security is. http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/02/20/airport_diamond_heist_it_is_shockingly_easy_to_breach_perimeter_security.html
"It's just paperwork, it doesn't matter"
So, a government functionary with a minor Napoleon complex who just wants to get on with the fun parts of the job then?
This is what happens when you give stupid people that much power.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Ask to have the paperwork re-done
Isn't that what got his boat confiscated?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
As TFA notes, he will hire a lawyer and get it back. The only variable is when; my guess is that within two weeks, he'll be sailing around. However, if the government accuses the boat of being the proceeds of a drug transaction (very unlikely, since there was no cash or drugs anywhere around) it will take longer. But "stole" makes for a much better headline than the truth, "confiscated", doesn't it?
Did you read the whole article?
He did try to fix it, and the DHS agents acted like morons.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
But this is not "news for nerds" by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
Yeah, just close your eyes....
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
You don't get the point. It is about the gatekeeper's ego. If everything he described happened, then it would have made a lot more sense to make the corrections just because it is nice to be honest sometimes you know. She stole the boat because her attitude is like "if you don't do everything the way I want you to do it or if I sense even the slightest disrespect, I will F**K your things". That is what we face at airports too.
It's not really in nerdspace, but still - it highlights the fact that people in positions of power misuse it.
Maybe Franz Kafka was an optimist.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
I think Arrington overreacted and misrepresented facts, but whining is perhaps a bit strong.
It wasn't DHS "stealing" a boat, it was them refusing to release it without a signature.
We don't know whether the agent in question had the authority to make changes to the legal documents. If not, refusing to release it while the paperwork was redone might have been the only valid recourse.
For those who suggest initialized amendments to the document, whether that is allowed depends on the type of document. DHS might not be allowed to accept amended documents. Their hands could very well be tied.
What was truly disappointing was his speculations about the DHS agents feelings. That was very unprofessional, to say the very least.
It's only news because it's a rich person and his boat. When they utilize the new Homeland Security policy allowing them to seize any electronic device at the border without suspicion, and decide to hold on to your IPad or cellphone it will most certainly be your problem. And you will have enabled it to be so because you are so cavalier about a person's rights, so long as they have a different amount of wealth as you.
Isnt it fascinating that it's abhorent to violate a poor person's rights, but its chiche to promote violating the rights of the wealthy?
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
That happened to someone with a loud voice that is not so easy to intimidate don't mean that it not happens all the time, with a lot of things (maybe not as expensive in absolute numbers, but could hurt even more to the victim), to people with not so loud or that are easier to intimidate in some way.
Exactly the point.
So next time bring a heavyweight lawyer as a sidekick. I suspect that the DHS clerk was breaking more than one law at that moment.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Guess what happens when the victim isn't rich?
We never hear about it, and the agent seizes his boat and profits.
Corruption is a very real threat!
So what if this guy is rich? The point is that if they'll do it to rich people, they'll do it to anyone, except little people have no ability to retaliate.
Futurist Traditionalism
Dude, seriously, it's in the article ... they took the Canadian dollar value, turned it into American dollars (incorrectly), and asked him to sign a form under oath that what the form said was true.
The government form was wrong, he tried to fix it, they became assholes and confiscated his boat.
I'm entirely willing to believe some DHS agent went off and acted like an idiot when he was trying to reasonably fix a clerical error.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
He writes:
itâ(TM)s to highlight how screwed up our government bureaucracy has become.
If true (we should hear the other side), it's nothing new in the history of governments or the United States. Not that it shouldn't improve, but the good old days never were.
That's the essential point to understand that if you want to improve things: The problem isn't current bad apples or lack of morality or a temporary increase in corruption; it's the universal, eternal nature of humanity and their institutions. Ignoring that fact is like designing a bridge and ignoring gravity. There are solutions, such as transparency, but it's not a matter of replacing the current 'bad' apples with a new batch -- they will be human too.
I care. Not because the guy is rich and I worship CEOs, but because this is another example of some governmental lowlife taking property.
As much as I am FOR regulations of corporations I am against misuse of regulation for petty reasons.
Yep, they've been doing this for many, many years. Since the RICO act, in fact.
No sig today...
And when they then take the boat and don't give it back because you falsely swore to the authenticity of the import paperwork, then what? Yeah, it's only paperwork. It doesn't matter. Until it does. And if you don't think that this could happen, look up civil forfeiture, which is an even worse abuse.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
>Just fill out the paperwork, and get on with life. Don't upset the pencil pushers. They're goons with badges and guns.
This way lies fascism.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Re: gun control have a look at a few quotes.
http://thefiringline.com/library/quotes/antifreedom.xml
One of my favourites, due to it's simplicity and honesty (rare for a politician) is
"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal."
Janet Reno
U.S. Attorney General
1993-12-10
Having opinions isn't an abuse of power. Acting on them (which he hasn't done) is.
Also, restricting human liberties is possibly a bigger abuse of power, if inconveniently decentralized. But good on you for having an opinion.
I'm sure Arrington, with his long history of reporting the facts, is telling us the entire story. And if he is? It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy . . .
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.
What an assholish thing to post. The guy earned his money - you're somehow more okay with his property being seized because you're envious of it? Grow up.
I always thought the fanatical left was completely hypocritical that they bashed the Bush administration for liberty violations by federal agents but now they are Obama constituents and are completely silent.
*sigh*
Oh well; who needs those stupid ethics and morals anyway?
He did try to fix it, and the DHS agents acted like morons.
Says who? If the customs agent wrote a blog, would it say the same? What if she wrote her blog first and it was posted to Slashdot as "Arrington acts like and a**hole, gets yacht confiscated"? Do we just believe whichever side gets posted to Slashdot first?
And if the customs agent doesn't have the authority to amend the paperwork then and there, what happens?
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
How do you arrive at that conclusion?
This is a story of a bureaucrat acting like a fucking idiot and asking someone to sign incorrect paperwork, and then acting like a miserable old cow when he tried to resolve the problem.
Sorry, but if DHS is that incompetent and behaves that much like assholes, that's a major problem.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Well, that's one way to rationalize your feelings of powerlessness. "I'm not a pussy, I'm a cynic!"
exactly, this has newsworthiness for a few reasons, two of which i will expand upon.... IF a rich guy can be treated like this, guess what? if youre not rich, YOU ARE GONNA GET IT WORSE.... secondly, it is cause the guy is also a celeb in the geek world, so geeks care about him in the same brainspace that they will occasionally pick up something about steve job's illeg. child.
I disagree. Many years ago, (2002 or 2003), myself and two friends went to Canada. One friend was French, carrying a proper passport, etc.
When crossing into Canada, the customs official could not have been more cordial. He asked all three of us to come up at once (we were walking). Had a quick chit-chat about why we were going to Niagara Falls, checked our friend's passport to make sure everything was good, and wished us well.
Coming back was a completely different experience. We assumed the process would be the same, so we all started up to the customs agent at the same time. He jumped back from his seat, unholstered a pistol, and started shouting commands at us. (3 young college kids). After that, we received the 3rd degree on how two Americans could be friends with a Frenchie, etc.
CBE officials are power hungry... end of story.
Both of you are a little selfish, aren't you? "Oh, he's got money so he's got no right to complain."
This is a bureaucrat fucking up the paperwork, refusing to fix it, then seizing the opportunity to take someone else's toy for a ride. That flagrant abuse of power is a problem with integrity.
In a country where the constitution was deliberately crafted around the idea of protecting citizens from governmental abuse and seeking to empower the citizens with means to call their government on any and all abuse.
Integrity problems in government ought to have you up in arms, it's your job as American Citizen[tm]. No matter what the cause is. So git off yer arses arriddy, ye lazy bums!
They told me if I voted for Romney, we'd see DHS continue with abuse power... and they were right.
The American people have a right to know who did this. I'm sure the guy will eventually get his boat, but he'll have no recourse for any damage they do to it. We're paying those bastards big salaries to fuck us over. And they wonder why citizens are seeing red.
the US is a totalitarian state now run by the corporations and paranoia merchants who exist to fuel wars. I would not travel there with any electronic device as I would be more concerned about them messing about it or taking it at the border than if I was going to China. Seriously it has to have killed of a bit of tourism if nothing else with the mental border policies. Sure Israel blows up laptops it does not like but at least they have provable reason. I've picked flights to avoid the US as a stop over simply because I don't feel safe traveling there with electronics, not that I have anything to hide but I don't think that matters anymore.
Call me old fashioned but I just don't want to be irradiated and have all my electronic devices seized and violated at the whim of some random overpaid security guard with a bad attitude.
Slashdot hates anyone that builds airplanes, sailboats, custom cars, restores very expensive old cars, designs custom jewelry, owns a tuxedo rental store, etc. Didn't you get the memo?
I'm about to build a couple 4000 (my cost) pc's for some wealthy clients, so I'm sure they hate me too. I wouldn't be able to feed my family without rich people.
I don't want to see such disparity that some people can afford private boats either.
Just so you are aware, the vast majority of boats are owned by lower and middle class people. Boats tend to be a money sink which a lot of the wealthy avoid unless they just really have so much money that they don't care.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Dealing successfully with the ironically-named 'justice system' (where 'successfully' is defined as 'minimal loss of wealth/immediate freedom/future earning potential/continence' is based on two key factors:
1) Do not appear to have anything confiscatable
2) Flatter their ego
Stupid people care about the law. They think that if they obey the law, they will be ok. The fact is, the law really doesn't matter. Cops don't know the law, they just enforce it. The most important thing is to not get involved with the police, and if you do, to not get arrested. If you get arrested, you have already lost.
The law only matters after you are arrested. But even then, you will end up plea-bargaining to an unrelated charge anyway. The idea that you will stand up before a judge and he will see that you were in compliance with the law and you will achieve some kind of 'justice' is pure naivete. Even if the case is dismissed, you lost.
"... stuff that matters."
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
So you think that government agents should encourage people to make false statements and swear they are true?
If what happened was "I pointed out that the paperwork the DHS had written was incorrect and the agent said they couldn't correct it now and would have get a higher up to fix it which will take a few days and they'll hold the boat until that is done", then yes you would have a point and he would be being a "whiny rich asshole".
But that isn't what happened. The "they wouldn't let me have my boat right this second" wasn't the point of the whine, which should be pretty obvious to anyone who can read.
He'll get his boat back. More worryingly this was the third attempt at delivery. It broke down *twice* before and had to return to the manufacturer when attempts were made to deliver. A bigger entity really does not want him to have his boat! Boats breaking down is serious. You evade storms in a working boat.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
It "no big deal" until the IRS or the boat licensing authority gets ahold of that slip and it doesn't MATCH EXACTLY... Then he gets accused of defrauding taxes and such. A COMPANY has lawyers that can defend that type of clerical error. YOU don't.
To be totally fair, this is over dramatized. Obviously, without the paperwork, she can't clear the boat. So that means lock it back up until the correct paperwork is redone... And you go to the bottom of the queue for wasting her time.
The customs paperwork on a shipment was screwed up.
By the customs department, not the company or the private individual. If the company shipping the boat had made the error, or Arrington himself, this would be appropriate.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I know it's a little off topic and few are likely to read an AC's post anyway :), but I have a story of government bureaucracy bullshit related to the U.S./Canadian border.
Years ago, I tried to cross the border to get into Canada from the U.S. I had been arrested about a year before or so on a minor charge--interference with government operations. Basically some asshole cops were abusing their power, arresting kids outside a music venue, throwing them into the ground, and one of them threw his elbow into me on his way over, knocking me back. So I stood my ground. When he told me to move back, I told him that I wouldn't because a) he hit me on the way over , b) I hadn't moved since this whole thing started, and c) what they were doing wasn't police work, it was plain and simple bullshit. (Btw, one of these cops was later thrown in jail for murdering his young boy lover, and the other gets in trouble periodically for beating up high school students.) So I got arrested. After they let me go, amidst much snickering as they filled out my charge sheet or whatever on their rinky-dinky circa 80s mainframe system (it seemed), I went to court (not the real court, mind you, the misdemeanor court) and pled guilty so I could just get out of there. I paid $150 to someone behind a window and left.
So flash forward to when I'm trying to cross the border, and the Canadian border/police officer tells me that I have a felony terrorist offense on my record and they won't allow me in. And I'm like, "What?!?!" Well, there's a felony in Canada with the same name as the misdemeanor that I stupidly pled guilty to. I tried explaining this, and my explanation was along the lines of "So these asshole cops were abusing their power, and I was resisting it," all while the cop I'm talking to is obviously taking these (future murderer and disgraced) cops' sides. So I had to sneak into Canada. I'm not sure, but I suspect that to this day, I am still not allowed into Canada. It's something I could maybe fix with a lawyer, but I'm not rich and I'm stubborn about this bullshit.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure this all happened because of the 9/11 mess, Patriot Act and such. Screw bureaucracy. Screw all of these new government institutions and laws put in place since 9/11 that are just obviously fucked up (TSA, I'm talking about you). And of course, confiscating this guy's boat is bullshit, but as he said, he is rich and he will get it back. How many people have shit like this happen who aren't rich and don't have a popular blog and slashdot to publicize it? I'm guessing far too many.
Obviously, without the paperwork, she can't clear the boat. So that means lock it back up until the correct paperwork is redone... And you go to the bottom of the queue for wasting her time.
Except she filled out the form with the wrong information. She wasted her own time and he doesn't deserve to go to the bottom of the queue for that.
On slashdot, if there's a confrontation between someone from the government and a rich guy, who do you think people will believe?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
But this is not "news for nerds" by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
Unless it happened to you.
Secretary Janet Napolitano oversees the third largest Cabinet department and leads our nation's efforts to secure our country from terrorism to natural disasters.
http://www.dhs.gov/about-dhs
Arrington is an interesting person but it's a stretch to say the he's either a terrorist or natural disaster.
So in America, it is now considered normal that you only have rights if you can and do afford to always have a lawyer besides you?
Who cares about the 1st or 4th amendment when we have the 2nd amendment.
I keep telling people that if you have to use the 2nd amendment to correct your government you have already lost. That is all the excuse they need to bring down the boot. Look how well it worked out for Ireland and Pakistan.
Cheap storage VM.
Arrington is an interesting person but it's a stretch to say the he's either a terrorist or natural disaster.
Unlike the DHS.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
So, someone is rude, arrogant, flaunting, etc., and that is legal grounds for property seizure?
No guns drawn on us, but my wife and I, who really like Happy Jack's in Fort Erie, have lost a bit of desire to go there for lunch because of the assholes manning the US side of the border. On special occasions, we'll push our luck and go, and the Canadians are always cool about it. The Americans are almost always total power-tripping buttheads.
I had the opportunity to look up an address in Washington State on Google Maps and found that there were a lot of boats in the suburbs of Seattle. They were typically parked on their trailers in or very near the front yards of their owners' homes. Small boats, surely, but obviously ready to use when the desire presented itself.
Incidents worse than this have been happening for years under asset forfeiture laws for certain felony crimes.
It makes one want to become a Libertarian.
And my point is that BOTH should be news. And that in no case should the violation of a person's rights be casually dismissed for any reason, including how much or how little money that person might have.
As soon as we choose who are worthy of protection under the law and who are socially acceptable to victimize we are doomed to fail as a culture.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
honestly, if Coastal Craft's construction is as bad as the grammar on their website... DHS may have saved his life...
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
Or Germany....
THAT is why you stand up to them.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
I understand your argument from a moral and ethical perspective; no one ever said that Karl Marx lacked a conscience. The problem lies in implementing a system that enforces "equality" on everybody; it's the enforcing part that the rest of us have a problem with.
I don't want to see such disparity that some people can afford private boats either.
Just so you are aware, the vast majority of boats are owned by lower and middle class people. Boats tend to be a money sink which a lot of the wealthy avoid unless they just really have so much money that they don't care.
Just so you are aware, I can completely make stuff up as well:
The VAST(cavernous? I prefer cavernous). The CAVERNOUS majority of boats are kayaks/canoes/etc that don't have associated costs of ownership. I guess if you count them then the vast majority (what is that, anyway? 75%? 90% 99.99999%?) of boats are indeed owned by the lower and middle class. If you don't take into account the "quality" of a good then the poor and middle class probably own the majority of everything. There are a lot more of them than there are rich people. They have nothing to do with this guy trying to bring his yacht through customs.
My completely made up stuff sounds more plausible, honestly.
It's a customs declaration, same as everybody fills out when entering the country with something valuable. You tell the government you have it and that you bought it, and you state its approximate value in USD. The government doesn't want to know its value in florins, or rubles, or Canadian dollars. The value does not have to be exact, as it's only needed for statistical purposes. Even if knowingly misrepresented, I have yet to meet a government agency that is unwilling to correct paperwork after the fact.
I expect that much everybody the DHS agent deals with understands this, and doesn't care enough to make a big deal of it. When some guy starts insisting that the government should rebuild its procedures to compute value using a foreign currency, the agent smiled cheerfully, explained that the boat can't be released without the proper paperwork, and likely tried to restrain the laughter at the guy who thinks the world should bend to his will.
Well, Mr. Arrington, congratulations. Your high moral standards and obsession with accurate reporting have inconvenienced your government and cost you a few weeks' time with your precious new boat while new papers are filed. At least you can post your story online and get some sympathy from faceless strangers.
Anecdotally, I just received notice from the IRS that I've just finished an audit for 2010. I had rounded a few numbers on my 1040, and they didn't get third-party papers corroborating a deduction, and they thought I was worthy of closer scrutiny. Fixing it took a few hours on the phone, a trip to my accountant, and a signed letter attesting that I really did do what I said I did. Apparently I'll soon be getting a second refund check.
The government is not out to get you, the hapless individual. The government is out to get all the other assholes who screw over the system, and you just happen to have aroused suspicion. Once you're under suspicion, you have two options. You can be offended and return the offense, approaching every interaction as though you were going to battle, or you can convince the government that you're not the criminal they're looking for, but merely someone who deviated a bit too far from their expectations. The latter's really not that hard, and can help to stretch the bounds of their expectations.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Whether he was a dick to her, or vice versa, is entirely irrelevant. There are only four facts that are relevant in any way, and they're all binary:
1) Was the information on the form incorrect, yes or no?
2) Did she tell him to nevertheless sign a form with incorrect information, yes or no?
3) Did he refuse to swear that information he knew to be false was true, yes or no?
4) After that, sis she seize the boat, yes or no?
She doesn't have to like him and he doesn't have to like her. If the answer to all four of the above questions is "yes" then she is entirely in the wrong needs to be slapped down... ideally terminated as unfit to serve the public in any capacity.
Imagine all the people...
There are other options I'd like to bring along.
- Licensed armed bodyguard, or state police officer if you have "connections"
- TV crew
- Retired Army sniper with a touch of PTSD
- an Italian-American mother who don't take no crap
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
It's kind of a tough call. On the one hand, if you sign off on something government-y that's technically false, that can boomerang on you later on. On the other hand, since the US and Canadian dollar are within a percent or two of parity, the discrepancy is trivial, so any future correction would be trivial. Me, I'd have probably STFU and signed.
But I could only afford a used boat.So maybe I don't understand...
The flaw in the system seems to be the inordinate amount of power in one agent's hands. If the agent had to call a superior to do the seizure, and explain the stupid reason... I bet the matter would have evaporated at that point.
The paperwork was government supplied, not his. His paperwork showed the correct amount in Canadian dollars.
He tried to get the paperwork fixed at the time and the agent refused to amend to show the correct currency to him to sign a truthful document.
Remember there is also an exchange rate difference between US & Canadian dollars (although its not much).
So writing down that the boat is worth $100k USD when its actually only worth $98212 USD ($100k CAN) impacts on the import taxes you have to pay.
The thing is, this person is in one of the best positions to fix the problem. He can draw attention to an issue that affects more than just rich people, but the poor people it affects don't have the money or ability to draw attention to it.
In a sense, this happening to him is a blessing to all of us, because it can end up being one more nail in the department of illegal detainment, theft and torture.
All people have a right to their life, liberty, and property. If a government is corrupt, and thus gives preference to the wealthy, that doesn't mean we should abandon the idea of human rights and become basement Marxists like you.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
>Just fill out the paperwork, and get on with life. Don't upset the pencil pushers. They're goons with badges and guns.
This way lies fascism.
If it was facism, they'd just beat you until you were crippled then take the boat anyway without bothering with paperwork.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I think regardless of how in the right the DHS rep is they handled it poorly. If they don't have the authority to change the form fine. If they must seized the boat fine. Explain the the gentleman why you are unable to make the changes and why you must seized the boat. Then let them know what the next step is to get things sorted out. Most people are fairly forgiving of inconveniences if they know why they are happening.
This just smacks of a functionary that enjoys being a pain. As for the DHS agent this is probably not going to go well for them. Even if it doesn't cost them there job it will probably result in a demotion.
Well, that bitch is fired
On slashdot, if there's a confrontation between someone from the government and a rich guy, who do you think people will believe?
The stoner who wasn't there but has a very strong opinion about what happened.
What I don't understand is why he didn't just make a note on the document then sign it.
"Oh, hang on."
*writes CDN and initials it*
"there we go!"
*sign*
I do that all the time for things that are worth far more than his boat.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
On the contrary, this is good news. If the DHS is pissing off rich people, maybe there will actually be some change.
Sure there will - they'll stop fucking with rich people, thus keeping their unconstitutional activities under the media radar.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
No, it's OK to temporarily seize his boat because there was an error on his paperwork (clerical or not).
An error put there by the same people who seized the boat. How... convenient.
Now take off your fucking blinders.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Having crossed a fair few borders in my life, the US ones are without a doubt the most unpleasant ones.Worse even than the former East German one (albeit on a West German passport... I'm sure with an eastern block passport they would have been even worse).
It's odd, given that on the whole the US is full of friendly people trying to be helpful... all the assholes seem to hang out at the border and at airports.
no taxation without representation!
Yes.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
There are other options I'd like to bring along.
- an Italian-American mother who don't take no crap
This.
Who needs a gun, when you could be packing a Sicilian matriarch?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
They are close. But still not insignificant. And it's going to depend on what date the sale was as to who it's significant to.
The boat is likely $1m+. It's been in the works since 2011 and usually cheap boats don't take a year to build. Large, highly customized, high end expensive boats take over a year to build. With current exchange rates, The difference for a $1m boat is around $25k. Seattle's use tax rate is .095, plus an additional .3% for vehicles/boats, and .5% excise tax. So that's an extra $2500 in taxes and fees. Yeah it's only a small fraction of the total cost, but I don't think most people want to spend $2500 just because some agent didn't write $#CAD on the form.
The problem is far too many assholes hanging out in Congress. Starts at the top a trickles down.
Have gnu, will travel.
No, it isn't. It is a case where LOTS of people are abusing their power. This agent is not working in a vacuum. She is working in a framework that was designed by other people who also abused their power. She is supervised by people who are abusing their power. If the boat is returned promptly returned with an apology and the agent fired, then you can legitimatly claim that she was working alone, outside the authority of her position. Until that time, claiming that she was a rogue agent not supported by the full force of the government is nothing but a poor rationalization.
"'All people have a right to their life, liberty, and property.'
All people have a right to monkeys, hookers, and blow.
It's true because I typed it."
Not to get all technical on you, but "life" and "liberty" appear in a rather famous sentence in the US Declaration of Independence, and the US has this amendment to the Constitution about unreasonable search and seizure. That's not true because I typed it. That's true because it is in our official documents as a nation.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
No that isn't what happened. The issue he is complaining about isn't that a mistake was made on the form and that inconvenienced him. It's that he pointed out a mistake on the form and the agent of the Federal government told him to sign it anyway because it's just paper work and he should just lie.
Again the issue isn't the mistake. And it isn't that he can't have his boat this minute. The issue is the federal government asking him to swear that a falsehood was true in a legal document.
And an error becomes a lie when you know it is wrong and swear is it true anyway, so your nitpicking there is completely wrong.
And yes it's sensational language. That's what people use when they want something to be noticed - see any newspaper for many more examples.
So cute. You still think the constitution matters.
(I probably will go to hell for this)
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Name names. This thug needs to be held accountable for her abuse of public trust and power.
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
Since the CAD is currently weaker than the dollar, having declared it in USD instead of CAD would be adverse to the government, which actually makes it easier. (It depends on the exchange rate at the date of export, but based on today.)
(Rulings adverse to the importer entered after Dec 2004 actually HAVE to come from a formal protest.)
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=e7f7df984a01d3c9478867fa0f872497&rgn=div5&view=text&node=19:2.0.1.1.19&idno=19
19CFR 173:
 173.1 Authority to review for error.
Port directors have broad responsibility and authority to review transactions to ensure that the rate and amount of duty assessed on imported merchandise is correct and that the transaction is otherwise in accordance with the law. This authority extends to errors in the construction of a law and to errors adverse to the Government as well as the importer.
[T.D. 70-181, 35 FR 13429, Aug. 22, 1970, as amended by T.D. 79-221, 44 FR 46830, Aug. 9, 1979]
 173.2 Transactions which may be reviewed and corrected.
The port director may review transactions for correctness, and take appropriate action under his general authority to correct errors, including those in appraisement where appropriate, at the time of:
(a) Liquidation of an entry;
(b) Voluntary reliquidation completed within 90 days after liquidation;
(c) Voluntary correction of an exaction within 90 days after the exaction was made;
(d) Reliquidation made pursuant to a valid protest covering the particular merchandise as to which a change is in order; or
(e) Modification, pursuant to a valid protest, of a transaction or decision which is neither a liquidation or reliquidation.
 173.4a Correction of clerical error prior to liquidation.
Pursuant to section 520(a)(4), Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1520(a)(4)), the port director may, prior to liquidation of an entry, take appropriate action to correct a clerical error that resulted in the deposit or payment of excess duties, fees, charges, or exactions.
[T.D. 85-123, 50 FR 29957, July 23, 1985]
 162.23 Seizure under section 596(c), Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1595a(c)).
(...)
(d) Seizure under 19 U.S.C. 1592. If merchandise is imported, introduced or attempted to be introduced contrary to a provision of law governing its classification or value, and there is no issue of admissibility, such merchandise shall not be seized pursuant to 19 U.S.C. 1595a(c). Any seizure of such merchandise shall be in accordance with section 1592 (see  162.75 of this chapter).
As I understand the circumstances, on importation he performed what's called 'prior disclosure' - (Â 162.74 Prior disclosure.) identifying orally or in writing to the customs officer of the violation, before an actual investigation was begun. In this case the importer is supposed to tender any potential penalties/duties (in this case, none, since the import value was actually LOWER than declared) .
And finally:
 162.75 Seizures limited under section 592, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended.
(a) When authorized. Merchandise may be seized for violation of section 592, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1592) only if the port director has reasonable cause to believe that a person has violated the statute and that
(1) The person is insolvent,
(2) The person is beyond the jurisdiction of the United States,
(3) Seizure otherwise is essential to protect the revenue, or
(4) Seizure is essential to prevent the introduction of prohibited or restricted merchandise into the Customs territory of the United States.
(b) No seizure if prior disclosure. Under no circumstances shall merchandise be seized under the authority of 19 U.S.C. 1592 if there has been a prior disclosure of the violatio
-Styopa
So you regulate the people who will be regulated because the people who won't be regulated did something bad?
The problem is, if you swear to a falsehood, the same government that was willing to confiscate a boat rather than correct a form will be happy to confiscate the boat again because the paperwork is not in order.
I'm a boat owner (cruising sailboat, presently 'dry' while I repair the hull). The boatyard where it is kept includes boats and owners of all kinds. The majority of boat owners in my experience in New England is carpenters, guys who have a small business (single restaurant, dry cleaning shop, a guy who transports cars for a living, etc.) There are a few doctors and lawyers, a couple of $1MM+ catamarans, but most of the boats were bought used for $10,000 to $100,000. These folks are just everyday folks. Some people ski for a hobby, some drive boats around. The annual cost for most boat owners is about the same as the skiers - marina costs run $3000 to $10,000 per year depending on the boat, the location, and the amenities. If I had my boat in the water, at the two places I've been it would be costing me either $75 or $105 per foot for six months. It's a 44 foot boat for the purposes of calculating the cost.
Power boat prices have been down just like house prices because many people used their house equity to get into a boat that was too big & expensive, the value of the boat was less than they owed, and they let boat got repossessed right before or after their house got foreclosed. The price of fuel is also a big consideration for power boats - a 36 foot power boat with twin 340-HP gas engines may burn from 1/6 to 2 gallons per mile depending on how you drive it - below 'hull speed' of 6 knots or thereabouts, boats are much more efficient. A "Cigarette"-typeT go-fast boat may cost $100 per hour to drive.
For two or three years there has been a glut on the market, especially at the very low end - a lot of folks just walked away from their old, paid-for boat, leaving the marina to finally take the boat for the back slip fees. So you can go to most marinas right now and find a pretty good boat that maybe needs a bit of work, and the marina may just give it to you if you will pay a year's slip fees in advance.
Sailboat prices did not slump the same way, in part because apparently sailboaters tend to be more conservative about money - i.e. they're cheap. :) They tend not to buy more boat than they could afford. But according to the folks at the boat show I just attended, things are picking up at all levels.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
How would gun control make a difference? Are you proposing that when the customs thug takes your boat, you should shoot them and drive it off into the sunset? Because the government has a lot more guns than you, and a police force highly trained in their use. Unless you are planning on holding a full-blown revolution and storming Washington, your guns aren't going to protect you from the government.
No, it's OK to temporarily seize his boat because there was an error on his paperwork (clerical or not).
No, it is not OK, regardless of the person't wealth. It is not OK to sieze property because of a governmental clerical error. It is not OK to sieze property because of governmental clerical error. It is not OK to put a person in jail temporarily because of a governmental clerical error.
Clerical errors can take *years* to identify and remedy. It is not OK to punish the victim of these errors until the error can be corrected, again, regardless of the wealth of the victim.
Right. No, your other right. No, the other other right.
Actually the parent is correct. The vast majority of boats really are owned by Joe and Sam the carpenters down the street. Go to most boatyards or marinas, and you'll be able to meet them. Some marinas are definitely gold-plated, but in most cases it's a Bud Light crowd.
Interestingly, in most cases also, the folks in boats don't care how much you make - I've had many a beer sitting around a fire with a guy who owns a $1million + catamaran on one side and a guy who cleans houses for a living with a 25 foot fishing boat on the other. They've known each other for years, and they're both welcome any time on the other's boat. And they both dislike the 'boat snobs' who think the size of their tool makes them important ;) Boat people mostly respect each other because of their common interest - even with the mostly-friendly dichotomy between 'rag-boaters' (sailors) and 'stinkpotters' (power boaters).
There's a Creedence Clearwater song about "people on the river". It's mostly true.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
> The government is not out to get you, the hapless individual.
This may be true for the government, but not necessarily true for the individual. There's two sides to the social transaction, and either one can be intractable. The agent could see the victim simply as a target of opportunity. (See: Now I've got you, you sob.)
And no, you don't have to convince the government, you have to convince the agent you are facing.
The agents stated (according to the report) "It's just paperwork, it doesn't matter". Yet when he fails to sign it when expected, suddenly it DOES matter? You can't have it both ways.
Consider a nefarious intent scenario: ... confiscation? Tax evasion investigation/charges?
Once the paperwork is signed, and taken away, there is nobody to attest to the protest that it is incorrect. You say "it is only needed for statistical purposes", yet what are the penalties for it being incorrect?
While I don't assume nefarious intent, you don't NEED intent when dealing with the government, you merely need to examine procedures.
Ignore the millionaire's boat for a minute there, Skippy.
If you bought something and were bringing it into the country, and if the government paperwork was incorrect and you tried to correct it, would you expect that the DHS would be capable of actually resolving this issue and fixing the paperwork? Or would you expect them to confiscate what you have?
I don't give a damn if this is a yacht or an computer monitor -- it shouldn't be that difficult to try to work with them to correct broken paperwork.
This is just lazy and incompetent agents.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Unfortunately for Marx and his adherents, the math just doesn't work out. Without going into the gory details and math, here is an analogy. Imagine a society with complete 'equality' - everyone has the same resources. This is equivalent to a wheat field - every stalk is the same height, everyone is equally productive, everyone has the same demands for resources. A nice grass lawn is another example.
But if you look at this from a systems point of view, this is a very artificial system. It requires a lot of work to maintain this against the natural effects of its environment. It has to be plowed, seeded, mowed in the case of a lawn. It has to be treated with chemicals to prevent various pests and weeds (nature) from destroying that nice pretty evenness, and fertilizer to correct the nutritional deficiencies that will develop over time. And this expenditure of energy and resources has to be maintained increasingly over time.
And what happens if this artificial enforcement of the desired plan is stopped? Nature comes back. Messy, uncoordinated, glorious Nature will return and a real ecosystem will be regenerated. An ecosystem that has biological entities at all scales (not all the same size and shape), competing freely with one another for the available resources, at the same time cooperating with each other to retain the existing resources within the system, and to optimize the utilization of available energy. And the natural system that results will also be optimally capable of surviving, adapting to and prospering with changes in the environment.
This is analogous to free enterprise and to democracy - the same math applies as to ecosystems. Note that monopolies, manipulation of government, and dictatorship all have the same problem as the wheat field, but I have blathered long enough! See the book "The Edge of Chaos".
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
If DHS steals a rich person's boat, they can get another. If they steal MY boat, that is pretty much most of my net worth gone. So GO RICH PEOPLE - Get as much publicity as you can if DHS abuses you. It will make it better for me too!
Pretty sure most of the states are going to beat him to it.
Hmm, it's almost like a majority of the population is ok with it.
Damn politicians, bending to their whims.
Does not matter. Passing laws, enacting regulations, issuing EO's does not trump the Constitution. It's no different than if the government passed a law or regulation that authorized DHS to conduct random no-warrant, no-probable-cause house searches, or passed laws restricting the right to vote based on skin color.
If the majority are in favor of restricting/altering the 2A , then it shouldn't be any problem to follow the established procedure to amend the Constitution. The simple fact that none of the anti-gun people will even attempt to start the amendment process is proof that they don't think the majority agrees with them.
Once it's OK to "go around" the Constitution on the 2A, then that opens the door to the rest of the Bill of Rights being neutered. Either the Constitution is valid or it is not. There is no middle ground.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
within a percent or two of parity, the discrepancy is trivial
Actually, if the estimates I've seen for the cost of this boat (and from the description, they may be) are correct, the discrepancy caused by writing the wrong currency would likely amount to around or over $10k - not especially trivial, especially if that form was then used to calculate the sales tax and such he later had to pay. That makes it fairly significant.
If the agent had to call a superior to do the seizure, and explain the stupid reason... I bet the matter would have evaporated at that point.
That's the great part - the agent did call a superior and explain the reason, but left out all of the relevant details. Their explanation wasn't "There's a significant error on the form, and he wants it corrected before he'll sign", their explanation was "he's refusing to sign", and they refused to allow him to speak to that person to tell them why.
There's not reason to let it fade into oblivion without making a lot of noise. We can't make it too easy for the bastards.
Not really.
This is a basic customs issue that could impact ANY ONE that has something that a customs agent wants to steal. This is a very fundemental issue of corruption that you should no be so quick to excuse or ignore.
YOU WILL be next.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
going the opposite direction. I just notated on the form which information was false but that the agent insisted I needed to sign it regardless of whether it was true. They didn't seem too happy about that but let me through anyways.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Then why didn't the agent simply tell Arrington to do so? She should be far more familiar with the paperwork and process than he is. His suggestion was not unreasonable, but the agent's response sure as hell was.
Remember, you can't look dignified when your having fun! Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive
Oh, wait... you were talking about the DHS agent? No. She didn't abuse her power. She, as he insisted, followed the letter of the law. No paperwork, no boat.
It wasn't *his* paperwork that was wrong, it was the US Government's paperwork. As an agent of the Government, it should be incumbent upon her to help correct it. Or rather than seizing the boat, why didn't she just turn him around and send him back to Canada to await corrected paperwork.
Whether or not they are, if someone refuses to sign a document which must, by law, be signed before an article can be released from government custody, whether because they dispute the accuracy of the document or for whatever other reason, then there is no legal grounds for releasing the article from government custody.
If the complaint was correct and the agent was authorized to make or accept alterations to the form -- and Arrington's doesn't provide much support for anything on either point more than Arrington's belief that the form was incorrect because the valuation on the form in USD matched the original purchase price in CAD, which may or may not be wrong -- then there was something done wrong in not correcting the form.
This was addressed in the comments on the article. He offered to make the change, the agent informed him he wasn't allowed to change the form.
The Constitution of the United States is the document that tells the government what it CAN do. It is what "constitutes" the federal government.
If your "freedom of speech" is up for interpretation every time someone says something bad, you have no freedom of speech.
If you are so quick to give away the rights of others simply because they aren't the rights YOU don't get much use out of then all YOUR liberties will be short lived as well.
If one "right" can be taken away, then they all can. Then we have no rights, just privileges at the whims of others.
THL phish sticks
Can you show me where the Constitution says there can't be limitations on the arms that you have a right to bear?
The right to bear is not being infringed. Only the definition of arms.
Can you show me where it says that they can't modify the definition of "the People" to only include those in or approved by the government?
Sophistry is sophistry.
"It depends on what the meaning of "is", is."
"Freedom is slavery."
"Ignorance is strength."
"War is peace."
Why not amend the Constitution if most people are in favor of restricting/altering/abolishing 2A Rights?
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
No, he didn't cause the problem. He was punished for finding and demonstrating it.
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
Are you complaining that the guy who can publicly call out bad behavior by the government is calling them out? Are you suggesting that it would be better if he just quietly availed himself of his preferential status in US society? If he doesn't call out the DHS, who will? Who can?
That article was written by and about Michael Arrington. The biggest drama queen in tech reporting. And not known for honesty. It's not even sure there was a boat, let alone a second officer.
No story here until someone corroborates it.
No I think the problem is a highly individualistic view where large numbers of people do not see themselves as part of "society" and see government as some external force and not something they have a shared responsibility for.
There's plenty of existing examples of what you appear to be advocating in place like tribal areas in Afganistan and Pakistan and I don't think that's what you really want.
So I think the answer is instead of turning away from government, turn towards it, take more interest and control of it and get it to do what people actually want it to do. That's much better than bowing down to whichever of your neighbours can afford to feed more guys with guns than anyone else and hiding your daughters from their eyes.
No guns drawn on us, but my wife and I, who really like Happy Jack's in Fort Erie, have lost a bit of desire to go there for lunch because of the assholes manning the US side of the border. On special occasions, we'll push our luck and go, and the Canadians are always cool about it. The Americans are almost always total power-tripping buttheads.
Canadian Customs and Immigration can be butt heads as well. I've had friends detained for hours because an official decided a Canadian could do the work (never mind he was teaching on a very specific subject and methodology that he had years of expertise implementing - and the work fell under NAFTA Professional Categorization). At one point it was looking like I was going to run the session and do the setup all by myself if my coworkers got sent back. We finally decided to simply move the future sessions to the US and avoid the hassle.
You seem to be suffering from the delusion that it is any easier for a Canadian instructor (with the same criteria you list) to perform his duties in the United States. Moreover, your clients may have the unsettling surprise of being refused departure if they don't answer the questions correctly, as well. Imagine the difficulties your instructor gets to experience, times 15. This issue occurs in both directions.
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
You're digging yourself deeper.
You think it's newsworthy if applied to some ordinary Joe or Jane? Really? So why aren't you ringing up the papers demanding more coverage? There's an article every year or two about some TSA agent being arrested after laptops etc mysteriously disappeared after being confiscated, but for some reason the stories associated with each theft never get reported at the time.
Wonder why? Oh, I know, because this stuff doesn't matter if it's happening to you or me. Even if it's our livelihoods.
Why bring up the wealth? Because that's why we're getting the story. And we're not getting a newsworthy story about widespread corruption or abuse of power or anything like that, but "Zillionaire upset after pissed off govt official holds imported luxury goods awaiting paperwork. Hear his spin on it at 11"
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
The FA clearly states the forms were all generated BY DHS... The government made a mistake generating the forms, and then wanted to force the citizen to lie and say they hadn't made a mistake.
Then they stole his boat for refusing to be complicit in a lie.
Not to be an Internet Tough Guy,
Yet that's exactly what you are. More like you'd piss your pants if somebody pulled a gun on you. Either that or you'd deserve the Darwin Award when you cursed at the guy with the gun and kept walking toward him.