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When It's Time To Scale, US Manufacturing Hits a Wall

curtwoodward writes "MIT researchers looked at 150 of the school's spin-out companies in manufacturing businesses over a decade, and found many of them hit the same chasm: Once it was time to ramp up to large-scale production, they couldn't find domestic investors and had to go overseas. The bulk of the research will be published later this year, but it raises an interesting conundrum — if an MIT-pedigreed company has serious trouble ramping up production in the U.S., how much harder is it for the 'average' business that wants to grow? Is it even still possible to do high-tech manufacturing here — or should it be?" Intel seems to be doing OK with U.S. manufacturing, but they have the advantage of established operations.

22 of 268 comments (clear)

  1. Spoiled Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Americans have no one to blame but themselves and their short sighted insistence that they be paid enough money to keep themselves in food, shelter, transportation and medical care here in America, rather than what it would take to do all of the above in Bangladesh.

    1. Re:Spoiled Americans by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes - and no.

      I'm getting to be a pretty old guy. I remember the initial rounds in off shoring. The steel industry was in trouble here, in the states. Companies were telling the unions, "We're going bankrupt, we need to renegotiate, we need to cut costs. If you'll take a small pay cut, let us get on our feet, we'll make it up to you. We need help, or we're out of business!"

      How much of that claim was in good faith, it's impossible to judge, really. But, the portrayal was mostly accurate.

      I'm the son of a steel worker. I heard the union men saying that "No one in the world can make steel like we do. Go ahead, take your plant to the Netherlands (or wherever), you'll be back in five years, looking for qualified steel workers!"

      Well - plants were moved overseas - and they haven't come back. In fact, steel plants have been opened in third world countries, and they operate at a profit. Even little brown men and women from tribal towns in India can make quality steel. (Don't ask why China has such a problem, I haven't figured that out.)

      Greed plays a big part in all of this, and the greed isn't all on one side, either. Where I grew up, EVERYONE had almost new cars, a boat in the yard, expensive stereo equipment - you name it. If it was new and shiny, if it was "fashionable", if it was considered "high tech", then all the union men had one, because they could afford it.

      I thought my dad was wrong, when he refused to deal with the steel companies, and time has proven me to be right. Today, we only have a small fraction of the steel industry that we had in 1980.

      Had the unions accepted a three percent pay cut and a reduction in benefits, most of those jobs would still be here. It's not like any union man was going to miss a meal by taking a three percent pay cut. They worked hard at the plant, but they were on easy street at the end of the work day.

      The steel companies led the off shoring of American manufacturing out of necessity. Other manufacturing industries sat back, watched, and followed suit.

      We'll never get back what we have lost, and it all came about because steel workers were greedy.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    2. Re:Spoiled Americans by pnutjam · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why would the jobs still be here? The companies probably would have ended up like hostess, always coming back to the table with their hand out. A cut might have delayed things by afew years, but a couple of unions caving in would not have changed the last 50 years. The owners might have made afew more bucks.

    3. Re:Spoiled Americans by rve · · Score: 5, Funny

      Go ahead, take your plant to the Netherlands (or wherever), you'll be back in five years, looking for qualified steel workers!

      How can a US based company ever compete with a low wage, low cost of living country like the Netherlands, where employees aren't entitled to any benefits and will work 12+ hours a day for a basic meal?

    4. Re:Spoiled Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You _seriously_ need to read "And the Wolf Finally Came: the Decline and Fall of the American Steel Industry".

      Cooperation at some places like J&L was genuine and in good faith.

      At others such as Wheeling Pitt and US Steel, not so much.

      (In the case of Wheeling Pitt, workers cooperated with WHX & Ron LaBow and lost everything)

      The one thing they both had in common? For the most part, they both failed.

      Don't get me wrong, in some places steel survived, but only because management wanted/needed/planned for it years in advance.

      (ie US Steel knew in the 70's they had to cut capacity, and that the Mon Valley would only have one hot side when the dust cleared. Yet they told the workers it was their fault: for not meeting new quotas, for wanting COLA, for wanting workman's comp when injured on the job or electing the Homestead Five)

      A good primary example is ET and Irvin survived even though workers wouldn't budge. Some even said go ahead and close it like the others. It survived because it had perviously been selected by management for modernization and they actually did follow through.

      For the most part, vertically integrated producers are gone; mini mills have ruled.

      Far as big manufacturing and such, as long as companies have access to mobile work forces (ie not captive ones) wages will primarily control where they will go as labor is the biggest expense in general.

      Unfortunately you just can't live in the US for 8000/yr, have a family, be debt free, save for retirement (you think there will be a pension, social security? ask the pensioners who worked for Bethlehem Steel after ISG raided the pension just like WHX and tossed them to the PBGC after a life time of work), have children and try to provide a better opportunity for those children.

      Seriously read the book; Hoerr doesn't just make random statements and claims, he has the references to prove it. Read the foot notes after you finish each chapter.

      He and his family are from Tube City; he even worked in the National Works to put himself through school...

  2. Manufacturing by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Informative

    The US produces something like 18% of the world's GDP. It's silly to say the US can't manufacture things. There are problems with labor-intensive manufacturing, but manufacturing overall is still something that's done in the US.

    But that is not even the point of the study. If you read the article, it mentions that at least some of the companies stayed in the US to do manufacturing (the article doesn't give numbers, it says "often they moved out of the US for manufacturing"). The problem they had was they couldn't find investors in the US. They had to find foreign investors. Sometimes they found foreign investors and managed to stay in the US for manufacturing, but there is the assumption that foreign investors encouraged manufacturing out of the US as well. THAT is what this study is about, not a poorly-informed speculation on the decline of US manufacturing.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Manufacturing by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't forget that investors look at more than just the product and the market. The look at the regulatory environment too because that can derail an otherwise profitable venture.

      Yea, how dare those bastards make clean air and water for everyone priorities over profits for the select few!

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Manufacturing by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yea, how dare those bastards make clean air and water for everyone priorities over profits for the select few!

      Because our pure-hearted regulators only ever do what's best for everyone, and never use their authority to line their own pockets, or stifle their friends' competitors.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  3. Re:where are they!!!? by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

    Where are all the Job Creators!! I hear so much about the favorable treatment they deserve.

    Indeed. I just kicked a dude in the face. I helped create a job for both a surgeon and an orthodontist. It feels so good to be a job creator.

  4. Re:The Problem: They're in Massachussets by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Explain the success of Germany then?

  5. American investors uninterested in manufacturing by erice · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That is what TFA is really saying, not that America can not manufacture. That jives with my own experience. The US investment community is addicted to quick turn Internet services that can turn around in a matter of months. Startups that actually need to produce physical products are starving because investors don't want to put their money into projects that take millions of dollars and several years to break even.

    What is interesting is that they are foreign investors willing to fund manufacturing. Some are even willing to manufacture in the US. So it is a US investor psychology problem not a global one.

  6. Manufacturing in the US *is* hard by Silicon_Knight · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm a small business owner (I created OpenBeam: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ttstam/openbeam-an-open-source-miniature-construction-sys). It is basically a small, nice version of an erector set, that is currently being used for building 3D printers. (See: http://reprap.org/wiki/Kossel).

    US manufacturing is *hard*, for sure, for small businesses. In fact, the system is set up so that I'm better off shipping jobs overseas.

    We buy our extrusions from a small mill in California, a family owned business. Our first batch was great. We made a small engineering change on the next batch and ordered the extrusions in October of 2012. We received the parts in early December, and the black anodizing was crap - it literally looks like it's been dive bombed by seagulls with diarrhea. We shipped back 700 of 2000 pieces for rework, and we still have not received it back. Meanwhile, I'm out of stock, I have thousands of dollars of backorders that I can't fill, and I still have no idea when I'll get replacement stock back in. And to make things worse, when we complained initially about the quality of the parts, the answer we got was literally "you're small potatoes, we don't have time for you"

    Meanwhile half way across the globe, my injection molder (http://blog.openbeamusa.com/2012/05/18/behind-the-scenes-injection-molding/) is churning out parts, 50,000 at a time. He always delivers when he says he'll deliver. With UPS and Expeditors I can get goods landed on my doorstep anywhere from 48 hours to less than 3 weeks for ocean freight shipping. It costed me $1000 to ocean freight half a metric *ton* of parts, and it'll be here in 3 weeks. The reason for going overseas for injection molding is simple: The material we use is a high end glass-reinforced nylon and the only shops the US that can handle it are military and aerospace molders and they demand an incredible premium.

    On top of all this, I currently import a bunch of motors, pulleys, bearings for my 3D printer kits, US customs requires that I file an individual HTS classification for each line item, and taxes me individually. I then pay my old coworker's kid $20/hr, which is a princely sum for a 14 year old girl, to do my packaging and kitting. However, If I paid some guys overseas $10.00 a day to do the same job, I can declare my imported goods as "construction toy set" and avoid paying import taxes all-together. Therefore, there are absolutely NO incentives for me to keep the packaging job in the US, except for the short flexibility between an engineering change and getting the change pushed through on the line.

    When it comes to export, I'm equally screwed. Until I signed up with Expeditors, there was no easy way for me to export my shipment around the world. So while I have customers in the UK, EU, and NZ/AU areas, for the longest time I had to resort to USPS Priority mail to ship them stuff, and priority mail rates just went up. Surface parcel service was discontinued a few years ago during budget cuts, so unless you are a bonded importer / exporter, you really have no option of doing a low cost export. Meanwhile, I paid US$20.00 for a batch of parts for 2 day shipping for a crate of timing belt pulleys from Shanghai to Hong Kong. There are so many Chinese logistics company these days that shipping is incredibly cheap to move things around in China.

    People don't realize that the world is getting a lot smaller these days. The other day a vendor returned an email quotation - 5 weeks after initial RFQ. I had already paid someone else and landed parts in that amount of time. A supply chain is only as strong as its weakest link and it seems like for small businesses there are just no good options for manufacturing.

    -=- Terence

    1. Re:Manufacturing in the US *is* hard by TopSpin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I file an individual HTS classification for each line item

      The HTS is a fascinating bit of work. For people that don't know, the Harmonized Tariff Schedule is a US government published document that classifies just about every conceivable good and assigns tariffs, duties, etc. It is huge and is now only published in electronic form.

      As the parent wrote, most finished goods in the HTS are 0% tariff. There are many things in the HTS with tariffs, but if it's a finished good it is usually exempt from any cost whatsoever. Some exceptions include small arms and autos; the UAW negotiated a 25% domestic value-add requirement in the '80s if foreign manufacturers wish to avoid tariffs. That one requirement is the sole reason that all auto manufacturing hasn't evacuated the US. Today there are dozens of foreign owned auto plants in the southern US writing paychecks to thousands of US workers because of that law.

      No other nation is as import friendly as the US. Unless your nation has imams and muftis actively operating uranium isotope centrifuges in a bunker somewhere then you too can export to the US tariff free. You can wreck the environment to whatever degree you wish, abuse, neglect or contaminate however many people you want and it won't even slow down your goods as they get whisked into the US.

      That's what domestic manufacturers and the US working class have to compete with for 80% of all finished goods in the US.

      --
      Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
  7. Re:Simple Fix by TopSpin · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think guns are a protected industry in the US. I'm pretty sure that we're not allowed to import foreign made guns for sale.

    We import many, many foreign guns. There are limits, however. The US doesn't allow Norico (the largest small arms manufacturer on Earth, a Chinese company) to import. Also, foreign small arms must get through the ATF points system which limits what can be imported. Also, there are tariffs. Most other imported finished goods have no tariffs.

    The result is that although there are large numbers of imported small arms, the limitations and extra costs to importers allow domestic manufacturing to be viable. Thus, we have companies like Ruger and Smith and Wesson; big, successful manufacturers that build most or all of their products in the US. There are also a plethora of small manufacturers.

    Domestic small arms manufacturing is among the best evidence that applying some resistance to imports allows domestic manufacturing to thrive.

    --
    Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
  8. Re:The Problem: They're in Massachussets by WindBourne · · Score: 5, Informative

    Not just Germany, but nearly the entire rest of the western world. Canada and Australia are good example.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  9. Re:Simple Fix by peragrin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    a company needs investors. The trick is Wall street isn't about investing it is a gambling addiction.

    Seriously for one month make all trades last for a minimum of 1 hour. and watch the volume dry up. As Day trading bankers actually have to invest in companies instead of gambling.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  10. Re:Simple Fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think you'll find they are surprisingly selective about exactly which government regulations they want to reduce.

  11. Re:Simple Fix by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most firearms owned in the US are actually made in the US, including foreign brands. Walther is now made by Smith and Wesson, my Sig Sauer was made in New Hampshire, Glock is made in the US. There are Federal laws that require many weapon types to be made 90% out of American-made materials or assembled in the US(this comes into effect primarily with firearms such as AK-47s). As far as I know, most of the weapons we import tend to be AK/SKS type weapons (mostly Chinese in manufacture) and brands such as Beretta(Italy), Taurus (Brazil-they actually bought the rights and machines to manufacture 92 modeled firearms) and Bersa (Argentina). But most "foreign" guns are actually American made.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  12. Re:I'm that guy on my block by CncRobot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yea, with a username of CncRobot its probably a good guess I would have no idea what a CNC Router could do.

  13. Re:The Problem: They're in Massachussets by arfonrg · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Germany (much like Spain) had a chronic unemployment problem, a result of a labor market that was too highly regulated and offered too much protection for workers. German policymakers began to change the system back in 2003 with a series of measures that made the labor market more flexible and encouraged greater participation in the workforce."
    TRANSLATION: They weakened the unions....

    "Germany is making BMWs, not Chevys. If you’re making a BMW and charging so much for it, you can manufacture in a high-cost environment and still make a nifty profit. If you’re making a Chevy, which to a greater degree competes on price and doesn’t have a strong brand reputation"
    TRANSLATION: They manufacture high-profit margin stuff.

    "German management also just seems more determined to find ways of staying profitable while still manufacturing in Germany. The chairman of power-tool maker Stihl, Bertram Kandziora, told me that U.S. companies “don’t try hard enough to keep production inside the country.”"
    TRANSLATION: Germans try NOT to reward offshoring.

    Read more: http://business.time.com/2011/02/25/does-germany-know-the-secret-to-creating-jobs/

    --
    Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  14. Re:Simple Fix by icebike · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "a company needs investors."

    Not really. That is a common mythconception. Grow slowly and borrow instead of getting investors. That means you benefit more from your innovation. There is no better place for you to invest your own money, and time, than in your own creations where you have control.

    But you have pretty much written off "Scaling Up" when you take this approach.

    It may be a better long term practice for small business that wants to remain small business, but it is not a solution to meeting demand
    or or any of those other things that you typically expect when a product becomes popular and widely available. Its fine for a family business, more suited to the service industry than to manufacturing.

    You also run the risk of leaving the door wide open for competitors, some of whom will be using your inventions, but none of whom you will have the money to fight, because you insist on growing slowly. It doesn't matter if you are seeking to replace the College Yearbook, and end up creating Facebook, or seeking a better PDA and end up creating the iPhone. If you don't scale quickly and massively, you will lose your market to the next guy who will go all in. Just ask Palm or Psion or My Space.

    You have to scale, or forever remain a niche product. Tesla is facing this test as we speak. DeLorean failed it.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  15. Re:Simple Fix by g1powermac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a business owner myself, I do agree with this, to a point. There are times, especially if you are a manufacturer, that you desperately need capital to just keep up with the ever growing orders. And if you ever get decent publicity, you could be screwed very quickly as you won't have nearly enough inventory to supply the massive increase of demand. And when that happens, a couple of things can occur. One would be that because you can't supply demand, a hole has opened up ready for a competitor to take over. Or, maybe worse, people lose interest in the whole concept of the product because they just can't purchase it. The other problem comes when you throw all the money you have at making more only to find out that still isn't enough. But, you're so strapped up in debt that you literally now must produce more to pay the debt, but you can't because you ran out of money to make more. You end up forcing yourself to go bankrupt even though you have lots of sales.

    However, this all hinges on one very major assumption: that the product being sold has the potential of being widely popular where you could easily see exponential growth with just a little marketing, whether expected or not. A true niche product probably has very little possibility of going mainstream and so it can grow at a much slower rate and at possibly higher margins. Just take a look at niche software products like Adobe's stuff or any point of sale system. The prices are high, and especially for the point of sale stuff, not that complicated in features. Like what my one computer science professor always said, the money is in the niche software, and this goes for all markets as long as its a true niche serving a real need. Stuff that isn't widely known but serves a general need is not a niche, it is just starting out.