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In Defense of Six Strikes

Deathspawner writes with a view on Six Strikes we don't normally see around here: "It's been well-established all over the Web that the just-implemented 'Six Strikes' system is bad... horrible, worthy of death to those who created it. But let's take a deep breath for a moment. Can Six Strikes actually be a good thing for consumers? While the scheme isn't perfect (far from it), one of the biggest benefits from this system is that it introduces a proxy, and any persecution you might have easily faced prior to Six Strikes is delayed under the new program. Wouldn't you rather receive a warning from your ISP than be sent a bill or legal threat by the RIAA/MPAA?" A couple of days ago, someone sent Torrentfreak an actual alert they received from Comcast (the alert itself is a few screens down). Noteworthy is that there is zero mention of the appeals process.

34 of 354 comments (clear)

  1. Intractably horrible. by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The $35-for-an-appeal fee which they call a "due process" fee makes a mockery of the concept of due process and innocent-until-proven-guilty. Reverse that and it would be a tractably horrible idea, but it would be significantly less interesting to the people who are running it.

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    1. Re:Intractably horrible. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The $35 appeal fee is waived when you upgrade to the new Comcast Lawyer class service.

    2. Re:Intractably horrible. by biodata · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >How should copyright holders enforce their rights? I thought there was a legal system for that.

      --
      Korma: Good
    3. Re:Intractably horrible. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought that was the point. There's a legal system and people are complaining that it's being used. What are the complainer's asking for here? That's my interpretation of the question being asked.

      People aren't complaining that it's getting used, they are complaining that it is getting *abused*. Instead of a copyright holder gathering clear evidence of infringement, and taking a single infringer to court, proving how much damages they did (as would be required in any other arena of civil action) and waiting for the course of justice, they instead want to corral a bunch of "defendants" together that are linked to a crime by nothing more than a set of 4 small numbers, and then offer them "immunity" from a bogeyman trial for a modest fee of thousands of dollars, never really intending for the matter to go to court at all.

    4. Re:Intractably horrible. by drakaan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If memory serves, the prohibition on materials protected by copyright is on the distributor of said materials. In the same way I'd get in trouble for publishing unauthorized copies of a famous book that was not in the public domain, I'd get in trouble from distributing unauthorized copies of copyrighted digital media.

      The 6-strikes law turns that on its head, and is incompatible with copyright law as we know it (don't get me started on the DMCA). The 35 dollar fee collected not by the judiciary, but commercial entities that provide access to a worldwide network, is just a cherry of aggravation on top of a sundae of stupidity.

      The complainers are asking that first, the appropriate entities be addressed (i.e. those distributing the files rather than those obtaining them) and second, that there be something remotely resembling due process (that thing where you're accused, can get legal counsel, might have a trial, etc) before any discussion of a fine.

      --
      "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
    5. Re:Intractably horrible. by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The copyright holders are getting a free ride here. They aren't being required to pay anything to file the complaints, but the customer is required to pay to appeal the decision. Ultimately, the customers end up paying for the service that's being provided to the rights holders for free.

      The way it should work is that the rights holders should have to be paying the fees and recover the money when they file suit. If they don't intend to file suit, then they shouldn't be forcing somebody else to pay a fee to defend themselves.

    6. Re:Intractably horrible. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I cannot wait till there are no more customers because everyone has had six strikes. Let them have their six strikes. The only way to win is not to play their games.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    7. Re:Intractably horrible. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have no problem with the legal system being used, if the legal system were fair and equitable. But the solution isn't to introduce a "Pay $35 to appeal an accusation" system. That's just using a DIFFERENT flawed system, not fixing the root cause.

      The main problems with the legal system are that penalties completely outstrip harm and it is too costly to defend yourself. If I share out a music file and five people download it, I've caused about $5 worth of damage. (Assuming that each person who downloaded it would have purchased it. Perhaps not a fair assumption, but let's give it to them for a second.) However, were I sued, I could face a fine of between $750 and $150,000. They wouldn't be able to prove how many times it was downloaded, so that's the rate for ONE file shared.

      Obviously, during any legal suit, they would threaten me with the $150,000 figure. Since this is much more money than I have, and in fact could bankrupt me, and since legal fees and time spent defending a case can be pricey, I would be pressured to accept any settlement they offer. No matter how one-sided it is. Such as their standard: "I will pay you $3,000, admit that I'm a dirty criminal, and never say a bad word about the RIAA ever again" agreement.

      But surely they don't have proof, right? Unfortunately, they have enough high priced lawyers to turn one line from an automated script into a convincing sounding proof that I'm a horrible pirate that deserves the worst possible punishment. (Some judges have begun to reject their arguments, but not nearly enough.) And if the case is going my way? They can drop it and walk away without a potentially precedent setting verdict against them. Meanwhile, I'm left with legal fees to pay. Otherwise, they can drag the case on until I'm bankrupt to make an example of me. So even if I win the case, I lose (my house, car, savings, credit rating, etc).

      And the laws that should be in place to protect me from overbearing situations like this? Written by politicians who are paid by the RIAA and similar organizations. Sometimes written BY those organizations and introduced by the politicians.

      Fix the legal system and I would have no problem with lawsuits against those who infringe copyright. Of course, that would be hard to do. It's so much easier to introduce a "slightly less bad" system and spin it as pro-consumer.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    8. Re:Intractably horrible. by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are actually some sources saying you won't have to pay if you're "[paid] a gross monthly income that is less than 300% of the federal poverty income level, are full-time students receiving needs-based financial aid, or who qualify for one of a series of means-tested federal benefits." (One such source, referring to leaked AT&T documents I think.)

      It goes without saying that I'll believe such rumors when I see them and see how much trouble ISPs give you for proving you don't have to pay the fee. And, more importantly, whether an appeal will do anything at all in the first place.

    9. Re:Intractably horrible. by stanlyb · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have an idea, for everyone who receives this kind of warning from Comcast to respond with the following:
      Dear Comcast,
      Let me remind you that i am innocent until proven guilty, and that the only place where i could be found guilty is the court, and that if you try to imply that i am guilty of something, without due process, and punishing me on top of that, you are either blackmailing me, or you are trying to replace the court, both of which are unconstitutional, and would force me to sue you personally (corporations are persons now, right?), not for the before mentioned "infringement", but for blackmailing.
      Please consider this letter as a legal warning, and the fact that you read it, as an acknowledgment that you have read it.
      Sincerely. Yours
      THE CUSTOMER

    10. Re:Intractably horrible. by QuasiSteve · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Who the FUCK delegated law enforcement to private corporations?

      It's kind of funny that way. On the one hand people are saying that copyright infringement is a private affair and the government should butt out - and certainly not devote a bunch of police work to it. On the other hand, people start complaining when private businesses do start taking action to enforce their copyrights.
      ( Mind you, since some say the government is bought by corporations anyway, the distinction might be moot. )

      Since you seem to be railing against the latter, are you saying that e.g. the police should be actively looking for copyright infringement and bring down to bear all of the privileges granted unto them in this endeavor?

    11. Re:Intractably horrible. by jythie · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think when people say it should be a private affair, they are referring to the RIAA/MPAA not having special access to FBI resources that other types of civil crimes have. For instance if I was upset that a neighbor's dog was crapping on my lawn, I think we can agree that if I somehow pressured the FBI into going around and taking DNA samples of all my neighbor's dogs and then threatening them with fines well in excess of their lifetime earning potential, we could agree that I was getting disproportionate government assistance on my private matter, even though that private matter could leverage reasonable government support like getting the local police involved with minor fines and a warning.

    12. Re:Intractably horrible. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have an idea, for everyone who receives this kind of warning from Comcast to respond with the following:

      Dear Comcast,

            Let me remind you that i am innocent until proven guilty, and that the only place where i could be found guilty is the court, and that if you try to imply that i am guilty of something, without due process, and punishing me on top of that, you are either blackmailing me, or you are trying to replace the court, both of which are unconstitutional, and would force me to sue you personally (corporations are persons now, right?), not for the before mentioned "infringement", but for blackmailing.

      Please consider this letter as a legal warning, and the fact that you read it, as an acknowledgment that you have read it.

      Sincerely. Yours

      THE CUSTOMER

      P.S. make sure you send that bad boy certified mail, that way they can't say they never received it.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    13. Re:Intractably horrible. by dcollins117 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I shutter to think what copyrighted crap would look like...

      Do you own a TV? Turn it on.

  2. Neither? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why do I have to choose between six strikes vs. RIAA/MPAA legal threat?

    1. Re:Neither? by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 4, Funny

      The force is strong in this one. He didn't fall for the Jedi mind trick of "false dichotomy".

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
  3. Re:There always is the alternative... by alexandre_ganso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not about supporting arts. It's about supporting a dead business model that rewards little to the artists themselves, and which now has the right to spy on what you do online.

  4. Appealing is a moral duty. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It only costs $35 to appeal, but it will cost your ISP more than that to go through the appeals process. If everyone appeals, the system will be unworkable, and therefore everyone should appeal.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  5. No by redmid17 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Can Six Strikes actually be a good thing for consumers?

    No. It can, at best, be a marginally better than the alternative.

    Wouldn't you rather receive a warning from your ISP than be sent a bill or legal threat by the RIAA/MPAA?"

    Yes, but I would also rather have my kneecaps broken than shot in the face. It doesn't make either option actually palatable.

    1. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, it's stag hunt: Stag Hunt

  6. It's extralegal, that's why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The RIAA/MPAA is doing an end run around the court system and attacking the ISPs. Let's just toss this on the stack of things this private industry is doing to ruin the lives of the people who would ordinarily want to pay them money:

    They have copyright terms that last two centuries.
    They have the incredibly overbearing Digital Millenium Copyright Act that ensures that anything you do to copyrighted material which you own is illegal.
    They have the ability to take down any content on the internet they feel infringes on said copyright without having to prove they hold the copyright in question, that the infringing activity actually infringes, or that they have the right to make the claim under the DMCA. (Oh, and this process is completely automated in many cases, while appeals are not only grounds for lawsuits but must be evaluated by a human being on a case by case basis... Does anyone remember the mortgage foreclosure robosigning scandal? Because I sure do.)
    They have been making great strides in persuading countries around the world to make copyright infringement a criminal, rather than civil offense so they can get the law enforcement agencies to do their dirty work. (Oh wait, the FBI raided Dotcom and ICE seizes websites at the behest of private industry without due process... nevermind.)

    What really confuses me is that in the big picture the RIAA/MPAA is small potatoes compared to the other things that make money via digital distribution. They wield rather disproportionate influence over the activities of third parties that have nothing to do with them or those they claim to represent.

  7. I like this idea by wbr1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There was an AC post in another /. article about this I liked. It said something like create a crappy copyrighted work (in paint, sndrec of you singing, whatever). Host it free somewhere. Now create another page that says you do not have permission to download this file, with a link to the hosted file. Spam out the link to the page that says DO NOT DOWNLOAD everywhere you can. Not just one or two places, but thousands. Hell, post it through 10,000 forum backlinks free scams.
    Now collect the IPs of everyone who clicks the link and vies the file. Spam the six strike system with those IPs.
    If they ignore legitimate notices from you and do not issue alerts, sue, as they are using what is supposed to be a fair arbitration system to only police for content/companies they deem worthy. Keep flooding them with -legitimate- requests until they cannot handle it.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:I like this idea by jd659 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Idea is interesting, but it doesn't work under the current copyright law. The fact that anyone is downloading any material does not make that an infringement. "Making available" or sharing the copyrighted work is the only infringement that is a violation. In your case, only the server that hosts the file might be infringing on the copyright, not the people downloading.

      --
      There's no such thing as "illegal download"
    2. Re:I like this idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But Six Strikes ISN'T about the hoster. It's about the downloader. That's why so many people are upset about it - there's a good legal argument that they didn't violate copyright, yet they're getting warnings accusing them of doing just that. The *AA hasn't had much (if any) luck going after the hosters, so they're going after the downloaders and forcing the ISPs to be their lackeys. Because otherwise they'll just sue the ISPs for contributing to the process, and the ISPs REALLY don't want that...

      CAPTCHA: crueler

  8. Doesn't cover all cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    1. "Six Strikes" it NOT a _LAW_.
    2. Not all copyright holders are participating and none are _bound_ to it.

    Because of that, there is no guarantee that you will receive a "strike" before receiving a settlement demand for infringement or before being named in a federal copyright infringement lawsuit!

    Example: Let's say you go download the latest LA porn producer's newest amateur flick via a public BitTorrent tracker. This producer is not participating in six strikes. The porn producer is monitoring the torrent, and logs your IP. They are teamed with a lawyer, and sue you as a John Doe in a lawsuit. You find out when the lawsuit reaches discovery.

    What will your defense be? "I never got a first strike, let alone a sixth!" Yeah, tell _THAT_ to the judge. They won't care. You're still getting sued. Copyright trolls will continue extorting innocent victims.

  9. Anti-trust by KoshClassic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What we really have here is a huge anti-trust lawsuit waiting to happen - a situation where the large record & movie companies have banded together to collectively negotiate away our privacy with all of the large ISP's, who themselves have banded together and negotiated it away. Its completely anti-competitive in that, if I had any sort of option to get high speed Internet Access where I live from a company who wouldn't wave the white flag and offer up my information based on an IP address at the first hint of displeasure from the copyright industry, and I'd dump Time Warner immediately, almost entirely without regard for the cost or other aspects of whatever the alternative company might be offering.

    Any argument about supporting the artists crumbles in the face of studio accounting practices where no movie is ever profitable if the studios must share the profits, and where music artists basically never see a dime from the music that they record.

    --
    Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
  10. Re:There always is the alternative... by TheCycoONE · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And the best way to not support that business model is to buy alternatives and boycott protected media. Stealing Argo doesn't make a statement, it's a way of justifying obtaining something you want enough to download but not enough to pay the asking price for.

    May I recommend Libraries (many, including the one in my city are partnered with digital distributors offering free music and e-books) , NetFlix, Rdio, as new business model alternatives that aren't illegal.

  11. No by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wouldn't you rather receive a warning from your ISP than be sent a bill or legal threat by the RIAA/MPAA?"

    No.
    This is a form of the prisoner's dilemma.
    Individually, it makes sense for each of us to take the easy way out, but collectively, this is bad public policy.
    Private accusations of crime, followed by private punishments, is odious to our system of justice.

    More and more court cases are ending up like this one, where minimal evidence gets turned away as insufficient.
    The real truth is that the copyright industry doesn't want to prosecute these cases, because lawyers and discovery and expert witnesses are expensive.
    Even Hollywood can't afford 10,000 cases at a time.

    I am not unsympathetic to their problem, but the solution needs to balance the due process rights of the people with the interests of big business.
    That hasn't happened since the copyright owners discovered the scale of infringement couldn't be cheaply addressed by the existing legal system.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  12. Litigation is the Seventh Strike by earls · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You don't. Don't worry, it's both. The "six strikes" are to build a case against the owner of the connection and after the owner "strikes out," they can expect a summons.

    That's why they ask for confirmation: "Click the button below to confirm you received this Copyright Alert"

    In court they'll say, "but your Honor, they acknowledge six times that copyright infringement was occurring and did nothing about it - exactly how many warnings do they need?!"

    1. Re:Litigation is the Seventh Strike by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My kingdom for both mod points, and the ability to log in from work to use said mod points if I had them.

      This is EXACTLY what's going to happen. You get a pile of warnings, and Comcast says they won't litigate against you, sure, fine. They'll just pass your information along to the RIAA, and now they'll have all the ammunition they need to drain every dollar that you'll ever earn for the rest of your life from you. Acknowledgement that you not only "stole" (naturally, they'll keep using that word) their works, but that you continued to do it despite warning.

      And don't worry about those 6 strikes. A buck says that after a short time (aka: verifying if this system works on the first few poor bastards), a pile of people will be nailed to the wall by the RIAA after 2.

  13. Re:There always is the alternative... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The program they're using has a ton of false positives. It was removing stuff from NASA's youtube channel that NASA uploaded because news programs decided to use the footage.

  14. Re:There always is the alternative... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    You realize these 'strikes' aren't for infringements, but for 'claims' of infringements, right? The RIAA has misidentified users before, and it will continue to do so. Not infringing is not a perfect solution.

  15. Re:There always is the alternative... by dj245 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Which leads to a question- Would it be possible to set up a shell company, and claim infringement on every possible IP address? Then repeat 5 more times?

    This is a lot of IP addresses, but it could probably be done. I haven't read the entire actual law but the Wikipedia page doesn't mention anything about punishments for false infringement claims.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  16. Re:There always is the alternative... by pdabbadabba · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's a tort called vexatious litigation. It's common law.

    There is also a possible penalty under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Rule 11, for signing your name to a legal declaration that you have not investigated and, thus, do not have good reason to believe that it is true. The judge, essentially, gets to make up any penalty they think is appropriate (within reason).