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Google's Punishment? Lecture Those They Snooped On

theodp writes "When Aaron Swartz tapped into MIT's network and scooped up data from one non-profit company, the U.S. Attorney threatened him with 35 years in prison and a $1 million fine. So what kind of jail time did 38 Attorneys General threaten Google with for using its Street View cars to scoop up passwords, e-mail and other personal information by tapping into the networks of their states' unsuspecting citizens? None. In agreeing to settle the case, the NY Times reports, Google is required to police its own employees on privacy issues, lecture the public on how to fend off privacy violations like the one Google perpetrated, and forfeit about 20% of one day's net income. Given the chance, one imagines that Aaron Swartz would have happily jumped at a comparable deal." The fine being $7 million. At least EPIC isn't as cynical and thinks the outcome was positive.

155 of 252 comments (clear)

  1. Seriously now... by Cali+Thalen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm going to submit this submission for the best example of 'comparing apples to oranges'.

    I'll assume the submitter knew nothing about the Google situation in this case, or should I think it's just a bad troll?

    --
    Chaos, panic, disorder...my work here is done.
    1. Re:Seriously now... by Custard+Horse · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The whole Google fiasco was a non-story IMHO. Sure, data was collected and it arguably shouldn't have been.

      Google had its hands slapped and has to pay a fine and suffer the negative publicity. Can we move on now?

    2. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is what is with all the trollish 'stories' on /. recently. Are these submitted by 'anonymous' Dice employees trolling for clicks like HuffPost and others? I count at least 3 on the frontpage today...

    3. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seriously...

      - This was a settlement, not what the attorney generals asked for. In Germany, regulators didn't even find anything to press charges with.
      - Also, just a little triviality here, but Google didn't actually violate any laws right?
      - The accusation against Google here is one employee was not supervised properly, not deliberate privacy invasion. Or do we want people to throw the book at this one employee? People here believe in what Aaron Swartz was doing, but it was still willful violation of the law. Pretty darn different.

      One person got screwed by the law. Therefore we should throw the book at everyone!

    4. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll assume the submitter knew nothing about the Google situation in this case, or should I think it's just a bad troll?

      You, sir, are the troll. I am not.

      Assuming you're the one who wrote the submission, yes actually you are.

      You're comparing sniffing passwords from open, unsecured access points (which is arguably not even 'naughty' to start with) to a directed break-in of a computer system you were told, and signed an agreement, to not enter into. But since "Down with the Evil Corporation, Up with the Lone Renegade!" stories get a lot of page hits, they went ahead and pushed it to the front page.

    5. Re:Seriously now... by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      Are you sure that collecting packets and storing them from unsecured WiFi points is legal?

      --
      This space for rent.
    6. Re:Seriously now... by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      . I have no sympathy for him killing himself.

      Come on, you can still have sympathy for people even if they were stupid. Man, I know some drunk homeless guys on the street, who I have sympathy for, even though it's entirely their fault where they are.

      When someone is in a bad situation, it's ok to have sympathy for them, even if it's their own fault.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Seriously now... by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You have no idea about depression and suicide. So you look like an ignorant asshole

      These situations aren't the same, but I do have Sympathy for Aaron.

      Sadly, asswipe like you are still around who have no clue what depression is like, or what goes on leading up to suicide. Hint: It's not what you think.

      Not that it keeps you from spouting your crap.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:Seriously now... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Probably is now. Wasn't at the time.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    9. Re:Seriously now... by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      guess which one of those guesses of yours matters? The answer is the same as it always has been, by the way.

    10. Re:Seriously now... by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      What? when was there password cracking? Link please?

      all they did was made a database of open SSIDs, basically. When does that ever turn into password cracking?

    11. Re:Seriously now... by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh look, a pseudonymous pro-corporate internet bully telling a dead person to "man up" and "face his accusers with honor." What valiance!

    12. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm going to submit this submission for the best example of 'comparing apples to oranges'.

      I'll assume the submitter knew nothing about the Google situation in this case, or should I think it's just a bad troll?

      Google was collecting random, unencrypted, broadcast data as they plotted wi-fi access point coordinates for building a geolocation database. There was no intent to collect passwords or any other sensitive information, and intent is a huge component of criminality. So yes, this submission is a pretty massive troll. Google was eavesdropping at a party and possibly writing down more than they should have been, and Swartz was tapping phone lines during private conversations and recording all the audio with intent to distribute. Not even remotely close, unless one is blinded by troll-dom. But alas, this is slashdot, so every article must include a "sigh, if only Aaron were alive to see this..."

      Anon because you trolls are a bunch of touchy little motherfuckers.

    13. Re:Seriously now... by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      Are you sure that collecting packets and storing them from unsecured WiFi points is legal?

      Unless they are covered by some sort of DMCA (or similar) protection, yes it is legal. Remember, this is basically the same thing that goes on when someone "steals" satellite-broadcast TV by tuning in and decrypting it with home-made hardware, and the only reason that is illegal is because of the copyright protection afforded to the content, it has nothing to do with what the actual "thief" is doing.

    14. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's grey. When the law involves humans, perception is part of the law.

      Technically an unsecured router is broadcasting unencrypted data on unlicensed frequencies for which receivers are ubiquitously available.
      Humans think of their Wifi connections like wireless "modem calls" and have some expectation of that kind of privacy (not saying it's rational, but they do).

      This is much like voyeurism, if your neighbours are setting up a telescope to watch you in the shower they are the voyeurs, if they aren't but you leave the window open, you are a flasher. The same events occur, them seeing you naked, and which party is responsible and whether it's a crime is all about perception, circumstance and intent.

      Personally, I don't like the kind of porn any of my neighbors are downloading, so I fetch my own.

    15. Re:Seriously now... by tibit · · Score: 2

      Wait a minute, access to JSTOR was open from the campus too, you insensitive clod! It wasn't secured, just as the open APs aren't.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    16. Re:Seriously now... by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Is Femtobyte one of those Polish names?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    17. Re:Seriously now... by tibit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What Google did was unauthorized access to a computer system. You know, computers communicate with each other, the network is as much part of the system as the CPU is. What they did is in fact illegal in many places where they did it. The prosecutors know better than stand up to someone with such deep pockets, though. No, it wasn't like BP -- people understand so little about IT that the public outcry wasn't enough to cover possible fallout from messing with a legal department that got more dough than your entire state's (and subdivisions thereof) legal departments, all combined.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    18. Re:Seriously now... by AlecC · · Score: 1

      What law does it break? There are, in some jurisdictions, laws against snooping police frequencies, or if not against snooping, against telling anybody what you snooped (I think that is the law in the UK). But generally, the radio wavelengths are assumed to be free. If you don't want people to listen, encrypt. Transmission is a different matter.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    19. Re:Seriously now... by tibit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nope. The SSID database is not all that they did. They sniffed the data packets as well. As in: they got the MACs of the machines of the network, even hardwired machines, they also logged the contents of all the IP traffic, mDNS names, NMB names, etc.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    20. Re:Seriously now... by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have nothing against pseudonymity --- just against hypocrisy, like talking about "manning up," "facing accusers," and "honor," while spitting on the deceased (who almost certainly did far more honorable service to humanity in his short life than "Archangel Michael" ever will) over the internet.

    21. Re:Seriously now... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Apparently everything is a mental illness these days. I have one, you have one, my dog has one, and noone has to be responsible for their actions.

    22. Re:Seriously now... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll assume the submitter knew nothing about the Google situation in this case, or should I think it's just a bad troll?

      You, sir, are the troll. I am not.

      Assuming you're the one who wrote the submission, yes actually you are.

      You're comparing sniffing passwords from open, unsecured access points (which is arguably not even 'naughty' to start with) to a directed break-in of a computer system you were told, and signed an agreement, to not enter into. But since "Down with the Evil Corporation, Up with the Lone Renegade!" stories get a lot of page hits, they went ahead and pushed it to the front page.

      Sniffing open unsecured access point is most certainly naughty. It's basically like being a peeping Tom. Whether it deserves legal action and to what extent is debatable. But the "They were asking for it" argument also doesn't hold water.

    23. Re:Seriously now... by matrim99 · · Score: 1

      I still don't understand how someone can steal something that they already own (Public Domain).

      --
      Right. No, your other right. No, the other other right.
    24. Re:Seriously now... by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Wabbit season!

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    25. Re:Seriously now... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      "Asswipe" is not a plural, group noun. The plural would be asseswipe.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    26. Re:Seriously now... by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      And.
      Because this was unencrypted traffic, all Google did was hear and remember.
      There was nothing at all illegal about this.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    27. Re:Seriously now... by gmuslera · · Score: 2

      Is different reading what routers are publishing in the open air than a fully political prosecution. Google isn't, and is not treated as an enemy of the state, and is an US company after all (Samsung, as is not, had pay 1 Billon over for selling rectangular devices).

      Anyway, is not as bad as banks

    28. Re:Seriously now... by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      Duck season!

    29. Re:Seriously now... by LaggedOnUser · · Score: 1

      Actually, Google doesn't appear completely different to me. Like Aaron Schwartz, they have a manifesto - in their case they want to "index the word's information and make it available", which is actually rather similar to Aaron's motivation for free knowledge that got him in trouble with the prosecutor. And like Aaron Schwartz, they occasionally overstep in their zeal to make information public. Just look at all their legal trouble with book scanning, newspaper snippets, etc. So the comparison is not totally invalid.

    30. Re:Seriously now... by miltonw · · Score: 2

      How can password cracking be an accident?

      Yeah, no. Google only sniffed unsecured access points. What part of "unsecured" (meaning no passwords) did you not understand? Also, according to the technical description: "we will typically have collected only fragments of payload data because: our cars are on the move; someone would need to be using the network as a car passed by; and our in-car WiFi equipment automatically changes channels roughly five times a second. In addition, we did not collect information traveling over secure, password-protected WiFi networks."

      With changing channels roughly five times a second while moving, the actual amount of data captured from any one wireless AP would have been very tiny. That's not "password cracking" and the chance of capturing anything understandable would be almost nil.

      While it was poorly thought out on Google's part, it wasn't, in most venues, illegal. This is not a good example for your "We no longer have the rule of law in the US" hyperbole.

    31. Re:Seriously now... by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, the other way around. Google's 'punishment' was appropriate. The question is "why do you have to be a large corporation to be treated justly?".

      It also reflects poorly on justice in the U.S. If they REALLY believed this sort of thing called for harsh penalties (right or wrong), they would be champing at the bit to throw the book at Google.

    32. Re:Seriously now... by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Nope. The SSID database is not all that they did. They sniffed the data packets as well. As in: they got the MACs of the machines of the network, even hardwired machines, they also logged the contents of all the IP traffic, mDNS names, NMB names, etc.

      Really? [Citation needed]

      What is publicly broadcast is the SSID and MAC address of the AP only. (No "SSID database", no other MAC addresses.) Most wireless APs are set up to broadcast that information because that's how they operate. There is nothing illegal or even the slightest bit wrong with seeing what APs are near you -- and that means seeing their SSIDs and MAC addresses. That. Isn't. Illegal. Or. Even. Wrong.

      The rest of your comment is pure speculation and highly unlikely. You make it sound like the Google car was parked outside these places, sucking down tons of data. I don't say what they did was a good idea, but it wasn't as you pretend. They changed channels five times a second. One fifth of a second is extremely unlikely to contain even a small snippet of the information you claim they obtained. Seriously, if you want to claim that Google did what you say they did, you are going to have to provide proof because what you are accusing them of is pretty much impossible.

    33. Re:Seriously now... by geekoid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do you know how those systems work at all? Let me give you na overview.
      System A: Sends out broadcast saying "hey, here i am!"
      System B: "I see you, can I connect?"\
      System A:" can do the following: 1-"sure come on in!" 2-"Sure, just give me a password"
      In these cases, System a chose 1 - "Come on in!"

      Yes, it gets a lot more detailed, especially on the authorization side, but that doesn't matted becasue these system didn't ask for authorization.

      And, in fact, it many places, what they did was not illegal. I would hard pressed to find a place where the scenro is illegal.
      Now if they were using an attack to gather the password, or get around a password that's a different story.

      ". You know, computers communicate with each other,"

      yes, and in this scenario the communication included 'Come on in!'

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    34. Re:Seriously now... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " Schwartz had credentials (permission) to access MIT's servers,"
      No, he did not.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    35. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      not really. If you are running an unsecured node it's comparable to walking around naked in front of your open bay window. People might happen to see you naked as they walk by, but really it's your own fault.

    36. Re:Seriously now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's not true. It is also illegal to use a scanner to listen in on unencrypted wireless phone calls. Electronic communications have the expectation of privacy, enforced by federal law.

      For another analogy, it is not ok to enter someones house because they failed to lock the door.

    37. Re:Seriously now... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      How do you know? I've suffered depression. I don't any more because I changed how I think about things that are out of my control. People who suffer depression, often do things that are counter productive in attempting to deal with stuff that is completely out of their control. This makes things worse for them. I know, I've been there.

      And suicide is just one of those "counter productive" things people do when depressed. I know, I considered it. I don't have sympathy, with his choices, he made that bed. Well, in a way it did solve his problems, it just wasn't a productive way of doing it. IF he was depressed before his bad choices started, it would explain those bad choices, at least partially. However, I believe he was depressed, at least partially, because of his bad choices. Do I have sympathy for people with depression? Oh Hell yeah. But that doesn't mean I sympathize with his bad choices. They aren't the same thing.

      In the meantime, his death is being hailed as some sort of martyred saintly act. Either it was Depression, or it was because he put himself in a situation he couldn't handle. I rather doubt he was depressed before hand. My guess is he was depressed because of the poor choices he was making, put him into a situation that was beyond his control (snowball was rolling), in which case, he was in the kitchen and didn't like the heat.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    38. Re:Seriously now... by Dr.+Sheldon+Cooper · · Score: 1

      No, the proper plural for asswipe would be Congress.

      --
      Bazinga.
    39. Re:Seriously now... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      But even then they did collect some usernames and passwords that happened to be broadcast plaintext (to a website, for instance) while they were driving by.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    40. Re:Seriously now... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Actually, Aaron Schwartz was doing the equivalent of rebroadcasting CSPAN.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    41. Re:Seriously now... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      You have no idea about depression and suicide. So you look like an ignorant asshole

      You'd be wrong.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    42. Re:Seriously now... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're confusing entertainment and news programs again...

    43. Re:Seriously now... by anagama · · Score: 3, Insightful

      not really. If you are running an unsecured node it's comparable to walking around naked in front of your open bay window. People might happen to see you naked as they walk by, but really it's your own fault.

      Maybe for you. For most people who use the internet, this analogy doesn't hold up at all. It is more like they're walking around naked behind solid opaque walls, but unbeknownst to them, someone outside their house has the ability to magically make the walls invisible to himself and other similarly skilled magicians, but the naked person inside the house would still see the walls as solid.

      And before you start saying stuff like "idiots shouldn't use the internet if they don't understand it" -- look around you and ask yourself whether you have anything more than a vague understanding of how the various services you use work, and by that I mean a complete technical picture covering exactly how those services are provided and the potential ways a nefarious individual could harm you by taking advantage of your lack of knowledge. Things, like water, electricity, sewer, mail, garbage collection, etc. etc. Are there ways to violate your privacy via the sewer system? Your health via the water system? I could imagine ways, but really, I wouldn't know because I have merely a general understanding of these things totally lacking in specific details. Doesn't make me stupid. Just makes me a human who can't know everything about everything.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    44. Re:Seriously now... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2

      I like my Android phone, so I'm going to say let Google off any spying, murder, genocide etc they might have done.

      It's like when MS made OSs I liked like XP, 7 and so on. Maybe they sued some bytes and wasted some Kenyans or something or something but I didn't care.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    45. Re:Seriously now... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      As opposed to what Schwartz did:

      System A is connected to network port.
      System A: "Hello? Can I have an IP address and network information?"
      DHCP Server: "Sure, here you go. And here's the gateway if you want to go outside the network, and the DNS server if you want to perform lookups."
      System A: "Where is the JSTOR server?"
      DNS Server: "It's right here."
      System A: "Hey, JSTOR, can I have an article?"
      JSTOR: "What's the password?"
      System A: "******"
      JSTOR: "Sure, here you go."
      System A: "Thanks."
      System A: "Hey, JSTOR, can I have an article?"
      JSTOR: "What's the password?"
      System A: "******"
      JSTOR: "Sure, here you go."
      System A: "Thanks." ...

      Such a leet haxxor.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    46. Re:Seriously now... by miltonw · · Score: 1

      That is not "password cracking".

    47. Re:Seriously now... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      He did say "drunk". I think pretty much anybody that is drunk has only themselves to blame.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    48. Re:Seriously now... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I would be interested to see a concise definition. As it is Im reminded of Catch 22 (as was aluded to @ the beginning of the comments)-- one could well claim that anyone who goes out and murders a bunch of people has a mental illness, and therefore need not receive justice. Of course, I might remark that he cant be crazy, because hes using the insanity defense.

    49. Re:Seriously now... by sjames · · Score: 1

      I did.

    50. Re:Seriously now... by Yakasha · · Score: 1

      He did say "drunk". I think pretty much anybody that is drunk has only themselves to blame.

      mental patients self medicate. Alcohol being the drug of choice because of its availability.

    51. Re:Seriously now... by mattack2 · · Score: 2

      So you say out loud "my username is PRMan" and "my password is DUUUDE", and I hear that walking by and remember it (WITHOUT USING IT)..

      That's what Google did, according to all of the news articles I've read about it. They captured the unencrypted stuff that people were willingly broadcasting.

    52. Re:Seriously now... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      All transmitted in the clear on public spectrum.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    53. Re:Seriously now... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Most of the alcoholics I've known over the last 50 years got their mental illness from drinking, not the other way around. Most of them can handle day to day life until some sort of personal crisis happens, such as a divorce. I feel sympathy for these people, I've even given a few a place to stay, but in my experience the only people who can really help them turn things around are themselves.

      Here' just one example: The 60yo brother of the woman I hang out with got out of jail (DUI, assaulting police). He left prison with $800 to last him until his next dole cheque that was due in 2 weeks, he spent the $800 on CD's, booze, and a bag of dope in the first 2 days. I had helped him out by driving him around to various places, he rang me up broke from the city rail station, told me he had nowhere to stay because "the government hadn't given him enough money". I offered to pay 2 weeks rent in a back-packers lodge, he didn't thank me, he got upset because what he wanted was to move in (and mooch off) his sister. I'd had enough, I ended the call by telling him he had just fucked up his last chance for a roof over his head and I would personally beat him to a pulp if he hassles his sister again. That was 2yrs ago and we haven't heard a peep out of him since. Thing is, the man is neither lazy or stupid, he's an alcoholic.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    54. Re:Seriously now... by Xest · · Score: 1

      It's only like a peeping Tom if said peeping Tom is peeping at someone running round in the middle of a public street naked.

      It's not like they creeped into people's gardens to gather this data, it was being broadcast all over the local neighbourhood unencrypted.

      What next? you're going to say that someone who overheard someone else speaking too loud in their front garden as they walked past along the pavement is a creepy little snooper too?

    55. Re:Seriously now... by Xest · · Score: 2

      "And suicide is just one of those "counter productive" things people do when depressed. I know, I considered it. I don't have sympathy, with his choices, he made that bed."

      Sorry but here you just further highlight the GPs point, considering suicide as a passing thought when you've been depressed is a far removed idea from people who actually enter a genuine suicidal state which has been determined to be a roughly 30minute window where you lose all rationality.

      This is why in some countries, such as the UK, we have limits on how many painkillers you can buy at once - because it's been found that whilst yes, you could skirt round this by going to another shop, that creating that additional delay for someone who is suicidal can often be enough to get them through that period of irrationality and that is why it has been effective in decreasing suicides.

      This is also why places like prisons have suicide watch - because when you're in that state the only way out is for someone to stop you, or for you to be unable to achieve suicide before you snap out of it. If suicide was a rational choice then prisoners would be in a fit state of mind to figure out how to kill themselves well before whoever was on suicide watch got to them, but it's not a rational choice. Just yesterday I was reading an article on PTSD in young soldiers on the BBC, and another example there was how a soldier who was stood at a sink with a knife over his wrists was snapped out of it by his dog barking - without that interruption he'd almost certainly not be here. As yet another example, this is why seemingly normal fathers sometimes commit atrocities such as murder-suicides involving killing their own young children before killing themselves.

      So that's why people are saying you don't understand suicide, you don't. You think it's a choice, you think it's something you consciously and knowingly decide to do, it's not. It's a state you enter and really have no control over when you do. The fact you don't understand this is evidence enough that you do not understand suicide. Being depressed and having simply thought about suicide is a different thing and does not make you qualified to talk about the issue, the fact you didn't actually try and kill yourself means that you were fortunate that you simply never entered that true suicidal state.

      Aaron didn't choose to kill himself, he was pushed to the point where he did at some point snap and enter that state, and put an end to his life as a result.

    56. Re:Seriously now... by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      Do you even know about the networking terms you throw out there? Not all networks even have mDNS and NMB. All of this can be captured mostly by accident (as it was indicated), by merely capturing OPEN TRAFFIC ON AN UNSECURED NETWORK for seconds. MAC addresses are not significant. You can get any router's mac address without any form of spoofing. Oh no! a mac address! what shall we do! People do this shit all the time. Please show proof of something substantial being gained, because all of that is no more significant than having a house address, or wardriving. oh evil, evil wardriving, right? *facepalm*. It doesn't even remotely match the equivalent of access to any devices on the network, which was left open by the individual.

      And guess what? that individual with the unsecured network? they should be absolutely free to continue to put their network out without encryption, because open networks are a gigantic benefit to society, and the ones people put out tend to be better than starbucks or any other crappy cafe's wifi puts out.

      Again, where's your link of this supposed deadly information they dared to get? Or of them somehow getting more than 5 seconds of traffic as the thing captured data on an open wifi point? Please, go ahead and link it. You are full of shit man, 100% here. What google did was accidental and they turned it off, and the fact that they acknowledged it and weren't even given a slap on the wristis why this is a much, much smaller deal than you or mcgrew make it out to be.

    57. Re:Seriously now... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      It's only like a peeping Tom if said peeping Tom is peeping at someone running round in the middle of a public street naked.

      It's not like they creeped into people's gardens to gather this data, it was being broadcast all over the local neighbourhood unencrypted.

      What next? you're going to say that someone who overheard someone else speaking too loud in their front garden as they walked past along the pavement is a creepy little snooper too?

      Ridiculous. You have to be actively listening for it on a given frequency. In short you have to expend effort to get the information. This propensity to blame victims in this case is just astounding. Google knew they shouldn't be doing it. They told staff not to do it. And they admitted by doing it they did wrong. What more do you need?

    58. Re:Seriously now... by Xest · · Score: 2

      "Ridiculous. You have to be actively listening for it on a given frequency."

      The same applies to hearing someone's conversation as you walk past, the frequency in question is standard to Wifi.

      "In short you have to expend effort to get the information."

      Rubbish, all Wifi receiving equipment automatically works on the frequencies it's built for, you don't have to do any kind of magical tuning to receive wifi data - the same is true of your ears, when you overhear someone.

      "This propensity to blame victims in this case is just astounding."

      The same goes for my overhearing someone talking loudly in their garden example. So if they talk to loudly, you hear them, and they call you an annoying little eavesdropper and you tell them they shouldn't talk so loud then then you're blaming the victim?

      The thing is I'd have sympathy and side with you if they really were expending effort - i.e. they were breaking WEP keys and bypassing security etc. but that's not the case, it was passive monitoring and the very fact it was passive explains why no effort was expended.

      "Google knew they shouldn't be doing it. They told staff not to do it. And they admitted by doing it they did wrong. What more do you need?"

      Right, and we've had numerous politicians have to apologise that something they said was wrong. Sometimes it genuinely was, other times not. Just because they had to to keep their job doesn't mean they really were actually wrong though, it just means they were forced into it.

    59. Re:Seriously now... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      "Ridiculous. You have to be actively listening for it on a given frequency."

      The same applies to hearing someone's conversation as you walk past, the frequency in question is standard to Wifi.

      "In short you have to expend effort to get the information."

      Rubbish, all Wifi receiving equipment automatically works on the frequencies it's built for, you don't have to do any kind of magical tuning to receive wifi data - the same is true of your ears, when you overhear someone.

      "This propensity to blame victims in this case is just astounding."

      The same goes for my overhearing someone talking loudly in their garden example. So if they talk to loudly, you hear them, and they call you an annoying little eavesdropper and you tell them they shouldn't talk so loud then then you're blaming the victim?

      The thing is I'd have sympathy and side with you if they really were expending effort - i.e. they were breaking WEP keys and bypassing security etc. but that's not the case, it was passive monitoring and the very fact it was passive explains why no effort was expended.

      "Google knew they shouldn't be doing it. They told staff not to do it. And they admitted by doing it they did wrong. What more do you need?"

      Right, and we've had numerous politicians have to apologise that something they said was wrong. Sometimes it genuinely was, other times not. Just because they had to to keep their job doesn't mean they really were actually wrong though, it just means they were forced into it.

      And recording that information takes no effort? You're just wrong. Get over it.

    60. Re:Seriously now... by Xest · · Score: 1

      Maybe you live somewhere backwards where wifi and the computers using it are powered by some kind of device that you have to manually power by rotating a wheel or something, but in the western world the effort involved would simply be turning a computer on which is pre-configured to simply log passively all wifi data.

      Neither the pre-configuration or pressing the power button before you do your streetview drive on the morning though add any merit to your debate, the fundamental point still remains that Google were passively collecting data that was publicly available in a public space and not protected at all.

      "You're just wrong. Get over it."

      Well aren't you acting like an irrational little child. Rather than accept that your original argument was trivially disproven with a simple example you cover your ears, close your eyes and pretend reality isn't reality. I guess it sucks to be you. Oh well, keep telling yourself you're not wrong, the rest of us will just keep laughing at you.

    61. Re:Seriously now... by Yakasha · · Score: 1

      meh. Your story neither supports nor detracts from my point, nor does it affect the statistics in any way. Nor are you a psychologist, so your assessment of the man is lacking credibility. We're not talking about people we know, we're talking about the fallacy of assuming a homeless drunk is in the situation only because of their own fault. A significant percentage of homeless have mental illness. Additionally, alcohol is a well known choice for self-medicating individuals, including or perhaps especially with the mentally ill. I don't recall off-hand any numbers I've read on the medicating side of things, but I remember it too being significantly higher than amongst the "sane" population.
      If you wish to let your perception of homeless be based on your encounters with your friend's brother, that is your choice. I think it is a silly choice.

    62. Re:Seriously now... by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      No to mention the fact that they just recorded what was being openly broadcast. If someone prints their SSN in the newspaper, you certainly aren't guilty of identity theft when the daily copy is delivered at home home.

    63. Re:Seriously now... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Way to Godwin the discussion.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    64. Re:Seriously now... by strikethree · · Score: 1

      The SSID database is not all that they did... they got the MACs of the machines of the network, even hardwired machines, they also logged the contents of all the IP traffic, mDNS names, NMB names, etc.

      Creepy, but if it was all broadcast in the clear, I see no problems. Very creepy though.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    65. Re:Seriously now... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Maybe you live somewhere backwards where wifi and the computers using it are powered by some kind of device that you have to manually power by rotating a wheel or something, but in the western world the effort involved would simply be turning a computer on which is pre-configured to simply log passively all wifi data.

      Neither the pre-configuration or pressing the power button before you do your streetview drive on the morning though add any merit to your debate, the fundamental point still remains that Google were passively collecting data that was publicly available in a public space and not protected at all.

      "You're just wrong. Get over it."

      Well aren't you acting like an irrational little child. Rather than accept that your original argument was trivially disproven with a simple example you cover your ears, close your eyes and pretend reality isn't reality. I guess it sucks to be you. Oh well, keep telling yourself you're not wrong, the rest of us will just keep laughing at you.

      Haha. "My wifi did it, not me!" is not really an acceptable defense. Your response is a classic case of casuistry. You can find ever finer objections regressing ad infinitum, if you like, but I'll just take the limit and call you wrong. I guess it sucks to be you. Oh well, keep telling yourself you're not wrong, I'll just keep laughing at you. The best way to convince a fool that he is wrong is to let him have his own way.

  2. Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Google knows the kind of porn those AG's search for.

  3. When you broadcast your personal info unencrypted by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    you shouldn't have any expectations of privacy.

  4. What about responsibility? by gnasher719 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People should take responsibility for their actions. Companies are considered persons, so they need to take responsibility for their actions as well. So far the posters here deny that principle.

    Where the comparison is breaking down: It was apparently one guy in the Aaron Swartz household, and one guy in the Google company, who thought it was a good idea to get data that they shouldn't have (although in the Google case, many people ended up collection data that they shouldn't have). If you have a company with 10,000 employees, and one employee costs you 20% of a days profit, that multiplied by 10,000 would be 5000 days profit, which is a lot. (But then again, it _was_ more than one employee collecting data because one guy wrote the code).

    1. Re:What about responsibility? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      yeah the comparison breaks down pretty quickly.. Aaron deliberately hacked into things he shouldn't have gone near.

      Google wandered around just receiving network data from open, broadcasting, wifi sites. Ostensibly so they coudl build up a map of places with free, open wifi like Starbucks or McDonalds et al. Unfortunately, lots of silly people also had open wifi nodes and the google cars simply couldn't tell that these weren't free wifi hotspots or not (could you?)

      so Google gets a slap and a bit of a fine, probably more for keeping the data and trying to analyse it rather than just vaping it all as corrupted the moment they realised. Hopefully they can now go round all these unintentionally open wifi hotspots and inform the owners how to tick the "use WPA" checkbox on their wifi router. But I imagine that'll be a violation of the data, so I guess those guys will just keep downloading dodgy stuff without realising that's what their network is being used for.

  5. oh no by clark0r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oh god! This is a terrible post. It's like comparing apples and oranges. These are two totally different cases... Slashdot, you are quickly becoming the worst tech news site on the Internet :(

    1. Re:oh no by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course they're different. Swartz was a commoner after all.

    2. Re:oh no by Bigby · · Score: 1

      They were different, but neither should have been punished. We need to return to a society where you, the individual or company, are responsible for hiding your information. Right now, we are making insecure systems because of lazy laws. If this happened in the physical world, houses would be built out of windows and you wouldn't be allowed to look at someone's property, because you might "invade their privacy". The law of the virtual world are crazy!

  6. Fine was listed correctly to begin with... by shaitand · · Score: 1

    Fines are intended to punish so the total isn't as significant as the amount relative to the means of the fined.

  7. Seems fair to me ... by rjmx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Google's "punishment" seems to me to be about right for the seriousness of the "crime". Swartz's was not. In fact, the penalty Swartz was threatened with was the actual result of "lobbying fees and campaign contributions" (by the MAFIAA and its ilk).

    1. Re:Seems fair to me ... by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      Yes, Google was clearly guilty of the crime of writing down what people are yelling into a bullhorn for all to hear.

    2. Re:Seems fair to me ... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, what he was threatened with was the result of MIT. MIT wouldn't accept a short, zero, term sentence deal.

      This had nothing to do with the **AA

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  8. Not a valid comparison by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

    the AG offered a deal for zero (0) prison time, MIT refused to accept it.

    How many people computer rooms did Google break into? none.
    How many people system did they hook an unauthorized computer to? none.
    How many systems did they put unauthorized software on? None.

    These two case aren't remotely the same.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Not a valid comparison by tibit · · Score: 2

      If you sniff packets, you are getting unauthorized access to a computer system. Heck, two computer systems - the endpoints of the conversation. Remember that the network is an essential part of the system.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    2. Re:Not a valid comparison by sjames · · Score: 1

      It wasn't up to MIT to accept or not.

      If you mean Swartz, they offered to recommend zero prison time (except for time served of course) but couldn't assure it. He would also have had to accept a felony conviction on his record and the associated loss of rights.

  9. no tapping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sigh. Google didn't "tap into the networks". They simply recorded packets being broadcast from open wifi points, for the purpose of logging the SIDs. A side-effect of recording the packets was that if they happened to contain fragments of plaint-text communication, they could in theory have logged passwords etc. This was the fault of the developer who had been tasked with writing software to log SIDs. When Google realised that more than that had been logged, they themselves reported it to the authorities.

    Bad analogy time: a national birdwatching society has a project to record birdsong in the urban streets of the country. They also end up recording the "private" arguments of couples who are shouting at each other indoors, but with the window on the street side of the house left open.

    1. Re:no tapping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That is a very bad analogy. Since the dawn of wireless phones, federal law has established that electronic communications have an expectation of privacy. What they did is just as illegal as using a scanner to listen in on an unencrypted phone conversation.

    2. Re:no tapping by Bigby · · Score: 1

      The analogy is only bad because you didn't make it about a car. Otherwise, it would have been superb!

  10. Godwin by Ieshan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Aaron Swartz Story is quickly becoming some new kind of Godwin's Law.

    Yes, it was a horrible tragedy that everyone involved probably wishes they could do over again. No, it has nothing to do with this case.

    1. Re:Godwin by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

      Yes, it was a horrible tragedy that everyone involved probably wishes they could do over again.

      Well, except the involved people that have repeatedly said they did exactly the right thing and would do the same thing again in the same circumstances, sure.

    2. Re:Godwin by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, the prosecution is unrepentant.

  11. They should have threatened Google shareholders... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    ...with prison?

    They could have gone after the individual employees with threats of criminal prosecution (no, the "corporate veil" would not protect them) but that would not have gotten them any money.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  12. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by Etherwalk · · Score: 1, Insightful

    you shouldn't have any expectations of privacy.

    How many unencrypted telephones are there in the world?

  13. US worried after Swartz by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    What happened was that after Swartz committed suicide, they US got worried that maybe Google might do the same thing so they backed off.
    Yeah, that's the ticket fer sure ;-).

    The real problem is that corporations have "no bodies to kick, no souls to damn" as someone eloquently said quite a long time ago.

  14. Re:Just because... by qwe4rty · · Score: 1

    I think you are confusing "legal" with "moral"

  15. Obviously they were the same crimes by BitZtream · · Score: 2

    Clearly, collecting data that people broadcast openly into the street as if they were yelling at the top of their lungs in the middle of a crowded arena is actually exactly taking the steps required to visit a website, find a loophole, exploit and download data.

    I'm not saying Swartz deserved 35 years in jail (and he wouldn't have gotten that anyway), but to pretend willfully stealing data is the same as overhearing it and recording that ... well that just make you look fucking stupid.

    Google's mistake is that they were honest about it what they did by accident. It isn't even actually illegal to do it intentionally contrary to popular belief in most places, regardless of what this court case makes you think. The should have just kept their mouths shut. People who understand the technology don't care about what people did. The only people that care are the ones that heard Google say 'yea, we shouldn't have done that' and then they look for reasons to tear Google apart.

    Swartz on the other hand took direct action to steal data for the express purpose of stealing the data. It wasn't an accident, it was intentional. That changes the punishment in and of itself from both a moral and a legal perspective. Swartz sounds (if you think you know the truth about the Swartz case, you're just ignorant) like he probably wasn't doing anything actually wrong either from a moral perspective, but from a legal one there is no question that he violated the most basic federal computer crimes law. Unauthorized access to any computer system is illegal, period, no ifs ands or buts about it. The only exception to that is if the 'access' wasn't your choice and was forced on you, such as say the perfect example ... wifi signals broadcast at you. It is not legal to steal someones data and then say 'look, I stole some of your data, fix it!'

    Slashdotters may think this is the moral high ground, but it isn't. What if he'd stolen say ... a confidential database of aids patients in the area ... and then someone stole it from him or he lost his laptop ... and now that aids patient database becomes public ... Would you still be so fucking stupid as to think it was OK for him to steal data he never had any rights too in any way? What if you were in that database? What if your child, who got aids through some shitty accident like the utrarare blood transfusion instances (rare now days anyway) and suddenly he can't go to school anymore because everyone is afraid of the little kid with HIV so your kid gets isolated from everyone and can't go to school ... would it still be OK for Swartz to have stolen the data?

    Swartz was unstable and depressed, stop pretending that he was an angel that was trying to protect us from the evil bad code and data leaks.

    Google accidently stored and didn't immediately throw packets that BY DEFINITION THEY CAN NOT IGNORE and you act like its the same thing as intentional data theft.

    Let me give you a hint, your wifi adapter ... right now ... is listening in on EVERY FREAKING SSID ON YOUR CHANNEL AND PROBABLY THE ONES NEXT TO IT AS WELL. If you have a wifi card the difference between you and Google is that Google wrote down what you threw out.

    Google is not evil and Swartz wasn't your fucking hero, grow up.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    1. Re:Obviously they were the same crimes by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Is it even POSSIBLE to steal public domain data?

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:Obviously they were the same crimes by sjames · · Score: 1

      He neither found nor exploited a loophole. He used the provided interface.

  16. Re:Just because... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Informative

    If I did that, what law would I be breaking? If I'm not obstructing the sidewalk, not going onto your property and not doing anything to bypass any privacy measures you've put in place (eg. by using a ladder to see over the fence you've put up), exactly what law would I be breaking standing there watching your house?

    I think you'll find if you check that it's not a violation of any law. Only if you've taken some steps to insure privacy can I be touched for bypassing those measures. Celebrities have been fighting this for years. It's how the paparazzi get those candid photos and don't end up in jail.

  17. NYT article by puddingebola · · Score: 1

    From the New York Times article, "The applause was not universal, however. Consumer Watchdog, another privacy monitor and frequent Google critic, said that “asking Google to educate consumers about privacy is like asking the fox to teach the chickens how to ensure the security of their coop.”"

    1. Re:NYT article by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Stupid. Google has done many things to make people aware of privacy issues, and to even make ways to complete get off their systems.

      Google history shows that it is well behaved in this area.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  18. *Sniff* They Were Looking At Me by eyenot · · Score: 1

    Their name /is/ "Google".

    --
    "Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
  19. Bullshit premise is bullshit. by GodInHell · · Score: 3, Informative

    Google grabbed (small bites of) data out of the air that had been broadcast on unencrypted channels, in the process of collecting potentially useful information about networks broadcasting their SSIDs. When confronted by authorities Google investigated the allegations, found them to be true, and cooperated in isolating and destroying the data collected.

    Aaron Schwartz entered onto MIT's property, hiding a laptop under a box, for the express purpose of downloading specific documents which he knew to be offered under a restricted license. When MIT added security measures to stop Mr. Schwartz, he updated his program to adapt to and circumvent the new methods and continued his (admittedly illegal) downloading. When approached by uniformed police, Mr. Schwarz ran in an attempt to avoid arrest.

    Google was offered a penalty a several millions dollars (20% of own days income) and to commit its employee time to . . . what is essentially community service. Google accepted. Google was probably threatened with steeper penalties, but we won't ever know that, because Google did not try to use the press as a weapon against investigators.

    Mr. Schwarz was offered a light sentence of a few months in prison, but refused because he didn't want to be branded a Felon. He was threatened with up to 35 years in prison and a fine of $1 Million dollars. Mr. Schwarz wanted to bring public pressure to bear to force the government not to hold him accountable for his actions, so he made public every offer and threat made by the prosecutors.

    Let us compare this to a third group - the civil rights marchers of the 1960s in Selma. There, a group of citizens gathered on the public way and attempted to commit a completely legal act -- walking to their state capital together. The police ordered the crowd to disperse, and then began beating them with clubs, releasing attack dogs on them, and attacking them with water cannons. Many were hospitalized. John Lewis, the march organizer, was beaten with a club - receiving an injury to the head that caused his skull to fracture, then placed in jail and charged with a nuisance offense. This day has been named "bloody Sunday" because of the breadth and severity of the injuries inflicted by the police on law abiding citizens.

    See the differences?

    1. Re:Bullshit premise is bullshit. by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Google grabbed (small bites of) data out of the air that had been broadcast on unencrypted channels, in the process of collecting potentially useful information about networks broadcasting their SSIDs. When confronted by authorities Google investigated the allegations, found them to be true, and cooperated in isolating and destroying the data collected.

      Google grabbed _intentionally_. Someone thought it was a good idea to do this and wrote the code to achieve it. Next, Google did not cooperate. That's part of what the fine is for. They were supposed to delete everything and didn't.

    2. Re:Bullshit premise is bullshit. by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Google's programmer grabbed an open source module. He wasn't aware of the extent of the logging, which included the full packets captured, which included usernames and passwords in some cases.

      Aaron Schwartz knew that accessing the public domain works in the manner he was made people unhappy. But he was not technically stealing or violating the policies. They offered him unlimited and then capped him.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:Bullshit premise is bullshit. by GodInHell · · Score: 1

      Did I say unintentionally? Intent and knowingly are not the same thing in law -- here, Google's coder included a module that did more than what was required for google's tasks -- that probably satisfies intent (negligently acting in a way that causes . . . well I don't know what the practical harm was . . . but for sake of argument lets just assume it was very harmful to someone) for a civil suit. Criminal or quasi criminal? Who knows. The short and sweet is "dumb people put their shit out on a wire for people to look at, Google looked at it . . . let's hold them accountable for doing that." I'm reminded of a case out of PA where some coeds decided to change in their dorm rooms with their windows open. Some ass-hat took pictures and posted it on the internet. Coeds sued for invasion of privacy. The judge said "yes you have an expectation for privacy in your home -- but the expectation is waivable, there for example, they changed in front of an open window in full view of the public -- here, Google's victims might as well have been posting their data in their front window -- it was out there for anyone to see. The only substantive difference is that technology is "magic" and people don't know that leaving their network unencrypted is like leaving their window open -- still, very weird case.

    4. Re:Bullshit premise is bullshit. by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Google grabbed _intentionally_. Someone thought it was a good idea to do this and wrote the code to achieve it.

      I had heard they used Kismet. I know for a fact that it logs unencrypted packets by default By default Kismet will log the pcap file, gps log, alerts, and network log in XML and plaintext. (section 10).

      Next, Google did not cooperate. That's part of what the fine is for. They were supposed to delete everything and didn't.

      Is this true. It seems odd that they'd do that, given that they're the ones who decided to mention anything in the first place and said they'd delete it from the start. Guess they learned their lesson about talking.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  20. Tired of This Case by organgtool · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am so sick of hearing how evil Google was for recording information that other people forcefully put out into public airwaves. I know there are going to be plenty of bad analogies, so let me attempt to preempt them with a good analogy. If you go through the effort of acquiring a bullhorn to communicate with other members in your household and then proceed to pollute public airwaves with your personal information using this bullhorn, you have absolutely zero expectations of privacy. It really is as simple as that. If you don't like this, then you have many options: takes 30 seconds to set up a damn password, use https connections when possible, or use a wired connection! Once you put something out there, you can't take it back, so exercise some damn personal responsibility if you hold any expectations of privacy.

    1. Re:Tired of This Case by Bigby · · Score: 1

      It was going to say that it was a typical acoustics rant probably expecting everyone and grandmas to know that bullhorns are loud and talking or whispering makes it harder for unintended listeners to hear.

      If you don't know what you are doing, then don't complain when it is done wrong. If I think 100 euro is worth US$100, then I am stupid. I don't need a law to rescind my purchases that I thought I was getting a good deal on. You would only be perpetuating the issue.

      Ignorance is no excuse for the law; and ignorance should be no excuse to create a law

  21. Re:They should have threatened Google shareholders by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    They could have gone after the individual employees with threats of criminal prosecution (no, the "corporate veil" would not protect them) but that would not have gotten them any money.

    Nor would it have been likely to produce criminal convictions, since recording unencrypted broadcasts that may happen to contain, e.g., passwords is not a crime.

  22. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by fermion · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The point is if a private citizen or smaller company had done what data did, which is to collect this 'public' information, and in some form potentially put it to use, which we have no evidence google did not do, the feds might have worked harder at finding a punishment. There is a bit of unequal justice going on.

    Here is a couple of further examples. HSBC almost certainly laundered terrorist money. They were fined 1.9 billion dollars. That is like 1% of market cap. OTOH, a few years ago the leaders of Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development were put in jail for a long time and had to forfeit most of their money, the prosecutor saying money is the lifeblood of terrorist organization. By this logic HSBC is responsible of countless murders of US citizens, yet they get off pretty much scott free.

    Allegiance to a dominant group is also beneficial. Eric Rudolph committed a terrorist act by bombing the olympics and other premeditated and unprovoked murders. He was a fugitive for five years. He was arrested, did not turn himself in. One might think he would be charged as a terrorist, but because he was a major element in the Christian Movement, he was merely give consecutive life sentence,which allows him to spew his hate of persons who do not agree with him. OTOH, on of the beltway snipers who were not so politically motivated and were not kept hidden and supported by the Christian terrorist movement, were put to death.

    Powerful friends, and good lawyers, will tend to minimize the consequences of your actions.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  23. Re:Just because... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    [Just because...]...I have my blinds up doesn't make it legal for you to stand in the street and watch my family dress ot bathe.

    Well, no. That doesn't "make it legal". Its legal to start with, and the fact that there is is no law which actually criminalizes standing on a public property and observing events occurring within a nearby private dwelling is what fails to make it illegal.

  24. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by Hentes · · Score: 1

    GSM does use a form of encryption, although not a strong one. Which is one of the reasons I don't like to discuss sensitive topics on the phone.

  25. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    Those phones are generally on a point-to-point medium. Thats not the same as shouting private info to your SO through a megaphone, and then getting upset when the neighbors hear it.

  26. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

    Because it takes an active effort to get that data

    You apparently have no idea how promiscuous sniffing works. You set your wireless device to receive, fire up your sniffer, and anyone in range will be recorded-- kind of like if you turned on a tape recorder in the park, and someone happens to be hollering private details in the vicinity.

  27. Re:Just because... by tibit · · Score: 1

    Sorry, in most places in the civilized world it's perfectly legal to do so. Heck, there are places where people don't mind that all that much. I remember that there was quite a lot of nice flesh to be seen through windows in Copenhagen.

    What Google did is different simply because there are laws specifically prohibiting unauthorized access to computer systems, the networks being an extension and integral part of the same -- otherwise those laws would be largely moot, as you could claim that, say, injecting some broadcast DDOS traffic is "just" messing with the network and not the end nodes. Google did collect data that was meant for the end nodes, effectively gaining unauthorized access not only to people's private systems, but also those of the various service providers. Now you may argue whether those laws make sense or not, but that's a separate issue.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  28. Only political power can protect your privacy by guanxi · · Score: 1

    The situation that is playing out was anticipated by many: The politically powerful have their proprietary information protected, because they can make government do it for them. Everyone else has no privacy.

    Individual end-users don't have the ability to protect themselves. Most have no idea of encryption, much less what data is accessible to someone scanning Wifi frequencies (most people couldn't even tell you what a "frequency" is!). Even if they had the knowledge, they have limited time and resources. That doesn't make them fair game or mean they surrender their privacy rights.

    Google exploited a loophole in Wifi; Schwartz exploited a loophole in a server. Both took proprietary data. What's the difference? The law, made by the politically powerful, says that the data Schwartz took was valuable and protected, while my personal data is not. I wonder what would happen if I went to Google offices and homes and collected unencrypted data; would I be arrested? Fined 20% of 1 day's net income?

    (It's hard to believe that Google didn't know what they would end up with by collecting unencrypted Wifi data -- they certainly know about frequencies, encryption, and wifi. They could have saved a lot of storage if they just took SSIDs and ignored the rest. Plus they are experts; they are responsible for knowing what they are doing.)

    1. Re:Only political power can protect your privacy by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      Individual end-users don't have the ability to protect themselves. Most have no idea of encryption, much less what data is accessible to someone scanning Wifi frequencies (most people couldn't even tell you what a "frequency" is!). Even if they had the knowledge, they have limited time and resources.

      End users have plenty of ability to protect themselves. You don't have to know how encryption works to set a password in your router and switch encryption on. The manuals walk you through all the steps. They even recommend right on the quick-start sheet that you set it up, so there's no excuse for not knowing you should do it. If they have limited time and resources, then it becomes a matter of priorities. If those end users consider their own privacy to be less important than the couple minutes of their time it takes to flip security on on their wireless, I have a hard time finding any sympathy for them when they complain about a lack of privacy. If they don't like it... they need to give their privacy a higher priority. And if you don't want people hearing what you say, don't set up a loudspeaker broadcasting to the entire neighborhood.

    2. Re:Only political power can protect your privacy by PRMan · · Score: 1

      It's not at all hard to believe if you read about how the developer did his work with an open source module that he was unaware was logging to that extent. He grabbed what he needed and threw the rest away but didn't know the logs kept it all because he really didn't pay enough attention to that feature of the module.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:Only political power can protect your privacy by guanxi · · Score: 1

      If it's so easy, why do so few do it?

    4. Re:Only political power can protect your privacy by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      Because people like you keep telling them it's OK to be completely ignorant of things they're going to need to use in everyday life. 20 years ago we could excuse people not being familiar with computers. These days with cel phones being almost universal and computers being something everyone uses every day, it's time to quit making excuses.

      If you get out of high school without being able to do basic arithmetic, we don't excuse you and say "Math is hard, we shouldn't expect people to know how to add.". If you own a car and don't know the difference between the steering wheel and the brake pedal, we don't excuse you saying "Cars are complicated, people shouldn't be expected to know how to drive them just to get around in them.". When someone's VCR is flashing 12:00 because they can't figure out "Setup | Clock | Set Time | type in 4 numbers and select AM or PM", we make jokes about it. This is the 21st century, when the quick-start sheet for the whiz-bang new electronic toy you bought says "We recommend you secure your router by going to this URL, going to the Security tab, selecting these settings from the security and encryption drop-downs, typing a password into the password box and hitting OK." and you elect not to bother, it's time to place the blame squarely where it belongs: on you for not following the instructions, not the instructions for not being followable. I mean, come on, it's more complicated than that to set up Netflix or Facebook and people manage those just fine.

  29. Re:Just because... by tibit · · Score: 1

    In some places they do, in some they don't :) There's no single public decency standard. The prude U.S. has gone quite far downhill as far as western cultures go.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  30. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by bhagwad · · Score: 1

    If that ladder is on your property then it's not allowed. If the ladder is elsewhere then it's fine.
    If your door is open then anyone can look in to see provided they don't step on your property.

  31. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by Americium · · Score: 1

    Really, because GSM has bad encryption? I'm sure no one is close to you and listening to your signal.

    Regardless of the encryption used, the telco has the key and just forwards the police unencrypted audio.

  32. Yes, it's legal, since 1934. Here's why by raymorris · · Score: 5, Informative

    One time I was setting up a microphone to record someone giving a speech. The long (and broken) microphone cable acted like an antenna, picking up wireless signals, so I was recording local radio traffic instead of the speech I was trying to record. Note there was no radio receiver hooked up - just a long cord plugged into a recorder. You can even hear wireless transmissions sometimes by just having a coiled cord connected to headphones. The cord serves as antenna and the coiling of the cord tunes it to a particular frequency.

    If you've ever recorded static, you've recorded someone's wireless transmission. That's why in 1934 it was explicitly made legal to receive anything broadcast - because we've all done it on accident. If it were illegal to receive what someone is transmitting, it would be illegal to connect a long cord to headphones, because that will pick up "static", which is someone's transmission (your neighbor's wifi sounds like an intermittent buzzing). So it was perfectly legal for Google to receive wifi simply because it's unavoidable. Using an answering machine according to the instructions can record your neighbor's wifi as buzzing - the telephone wiring is the antenna.

    Note that the long established law does NOT allow you to DECRYPT an encrypted transmission once you receive it. That would be "circumventing technical measures" under DMCA etc. In 2001, an attempt was made to make it illegal to DISCLOSE the content of certain transmissions. Last I heard, that was being challenged at the Supreme Court.

  33. This summarizes current state of US legal system. by boorack · · Score: 1

    It is almost an anthithesis to the word "justice". Consequences (punishment) depend only on two things: 1) who you are 2) whose fingers did you stomp on. Actual damages does not matter much (if at all).

    If you're a big bank, corporation or some awfully rich individual with political connections, you propably get away with anything (be it drug money laundering, like HSBC, scamming an awful lot of people like in fraudclosure fiasco or stealing private e-mails and passwords en masse, like Google). If you're an ordinary folk and you anger some police mob, you're toast, whenever you did something illegal or not.

    If you harm ordinary people, it will propably be ignored (try calling police when some burglar robs your house). If you stand in the way of some big fat corporation interests, your "justice" department will smash you immediately. Just ask Dotcom. Or even better - compare Google's fine for collecting Wifi data ($7m) with Google's fine for stomping on big pharma interests and displaying canadian pharmacies commercials in the US ($500m).

    Now try to explain me that this is NOT a rigged system.

  34. What logic?! by naroom · · Score: 1

    So Aaron Swartz did not get fairly treated by the justice system. THIS DOES NOT IMPLY THAT EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD GET THE SAME TREATMENT. The justice system is what needs to change.

  35. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by sjames · · Score: 1

    Practically every cordless phone in existence.

  36. Re:Just because... by geekoid · · Score: 1

    "I have my blinds up doesn't make it legal for you to stand in the street and watch my family dress ot bathe"
    says who?
    don't bother. doesn't matter it's a bad comparison.

    To use you, stupid, analogy a bit better.
    Its akin to pulling your blinds up, and then yelling out your window that it's ok for people to watch you family bath.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  37. Re:This summarizes current state of US legal syste by geekoid · · Score: 1

    It's not rigged in that you scenario doesn't really happen.

    "r stealing private e-mails and passwords en masse, like Google"
    asking for something from someone, and then they give it to you isn't stealing.

    Dotcom committed crimes.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  38. maybe if you disconnect wires to sniff by Chirs · · Score: 2

    but personally I think that anything being broadcast over a radio transmitter in the clear is fair game to receive, and shouldn't even count as "sniffing".

    Next you're going to say I'm committing a crime by overhearing the conversation of the people sitting at the next table in a restaurant.

  39. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by Bigby · · Score: 2

    I am going to get naked and stand in my yard until someone looks at me. Then I am going to sue them for invading my privacy. Profit!

  40. Re:Just because... by flimflammer · · Score: 2

    ...I have my blinds up doesn't make it legal for you to stand in the street and watch my family dress ot bathe.

    Actually, it does.

  41. Re:Just because... by sjames · · Score: 1

    That depends on the state you did it in. Here's a list

    It most certainly IS a violation of the law, in some states more than one.

  42. Re:Just because... by sjames · · Score: 1

    Many states have laws that criminalize exactly that.

  43. Re:Just because... by sjames · · Score: 1

    There are many places where it is not legal, including the U.K., Canada, and most States of the U.S. for a start.

  44. Analogy by Skapare · · Score: 1

    Give a man a fish ... or teach him how to fish.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  45. Federal law and natural law sometimes differ by roystgnr · · Score: 1

    If my neighbor and I buy similar analog baby monitors and it takes a week for one of us to switch to a non-default frequency, are we now both criminals?

  46. Re:Just because... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    And if you read the statutes, it won't be a violation of the law. All of them require either a) trespassing onto the property or b) violation of a reasonable expectation of privacy. You aren't trespassing if you're standing on public property where you'd ordinarily have every right to be standing, and you aren't violating any expectation of privacy if there's nothing in the way that would provide any sort of privacy. A person doesn't have any expectation of privacy standing in front of a window where the curtains and blinds are open and there's no obstructions so they can see the sidewalk as clearly as anyone on the sidewalk could see them. Again, I note the paparazzi, if all those laws applied there'd be no candid photos in the tabloids because all the photogs would be in jail.

  47. Re:Yes, it's legal, since 1934. Here's why by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Consider a proper cable with a headphone style plug, like you see on microphones from Radio Shack. They won't pick up MUCH if they are less than 10 feet long.
    If the recording table is 30' from the lectern, so you use a 50' cord, it can certainly pick up radio transmissions. (For that reason, professionals normally use different a type of cabling, "balanced cable", on long runs.)

    If the Radio Shack style microphone is used with an adapter that converts it to use with a professional style system, that can pick up interference because the polarity on the pro system isn't standardized.

    If the cable has some wear and tear on it, so the outer braid is separated from the connector, it can pick up radio interference. In fact, loose shielding braid can act as a "cat's whisker" radio receiver

    If the speaking hall happens to be located right next to a high power AM transmitter, such as the style used for AM radio broadcast, with the mic turned off, you can pick up their signal even with good cables. That's a 50,000 watt transmitter next to a mic amp designed to pick up a 0.000005 volt signal.

    So there are at least four different ways that microphone cable can pick up someone else's transmission, all accidentally.

  48. Summary is false by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

    When Aaron Swartz tapped into MIT's network and scooped up data from one non-profit company, the U.S. Attorney threatened him with 35 years in prison and a $1 million fine. So what kind of jail time did 38 Attorneys General threaten Google with for using its Street View cars to scoop up passwords, e-mail and other personal information by tapping into the networks of their states' unsuspecting citizens? None.

    Not withstanding the fact that you can't actually put a noncorporeal being in jail, the various AG offices threatened Google with significantly way more than $1 million in fines - and in fact were ready to get court orders to force Google to turn over all of their data.

  49. Caught with your pants down by defaria · · Score: 1

    Google didn't "steal" anything. You left your proverbial dick out of your pants - Google pointed and laughed at you and now you're embarrassed. That's totally different than breaking into a network.

  50. Re:Just because... by sjames · · Score: 1

    BZZZT!

    Actually if YOU had read, you would see that at least one of them simply calls for peering into windows while on or ABOUT the property.

  51. Re:Just because... by tibit · · Score: 1

    Doesn't sound very civilized to me :)

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  52. Re:This summarizes current state of US legal syste by Hatta · · Score: 1

    Dotcom committed crimes.

    So did the New Zealand Government Communications Security Bureau.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  53. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    Sniffers are passive. They recieve data that goes by them, much as my tape recorder in the park captures broadcast (public) noise. If the sniffer is capturing data, that data was never private (assuming of course you are not using other active methods, like deauths or arp poisoning or rogue APs).

  54. Re:Just because... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2

    "about" has a specific legal meaning here, and it isn't merely "in the vicinity of". If you were up a tree trying to gain a view over a fence, they could ding you. If you were peering through a small hole in a fence to see what you normally wouldn't be able to, they could ding you. Standing on the sidewalk where everyone normally walks? The cops might hassle you, but even they know the DA won't charge you (and if one did, any competent lawyer could get the charges dismissed in 5 minutes and get the DA a good chewing-out by the judge which is why the DA won't charge you in the first place) without something beyond just standing there.

    If you don't take any steps to give yourself privacy, the law isn't going to make everyone else go out of their way to give you privacy.

  55. Re:Just because... by sjames · · Score: 1

    Since they specifically call out peering through windows, it means any particular effort you make to look in the window. If you don't believe me, go try it and report yourself, but don't call me for bail.

  56. Re:Just because... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    And the conversation will go something like this:
    "There's someone peeping through my window."
    "Which window is he at?"
    "He's looking in my living-room window."
    "So he's at the living-room window?"
    "Well, he's out on the sidewalk, but he's looking in through my window."
    "He's not up at your window or on your property, then?"
    "... no."
    "Sir, just close your curtains so he can't see in and call us if he comes on your property. Until he does, it's a public sidewalk.".

  57. Re:Just because... by sjames · · Score: 1

    So I guess there's no reason you shouldn't go give it a try...

  58. Re:Just because... by Kielistic · · Score: 1
    Try this one:

    There's a man on the street with a camera and a telescopic lens pointed at my underage daughter's bedroom.

    I bet they wouldn't have a hard time finding something to charge him with for that. Even if he was just aiming at the owl on the roof.

  59. Re:Just because... by Kielistic · · Score: 1

    Unless the SSID was "Google you may connect" how are the electromagnetic waves leaking out of their house any more inviting than the photons coming off their body? Is it legal to set up a hidden camera to look up women's skirts in public places? I honestly don't know but I seriously doubt it. All those photons are freely spraying out screaming "look at me!" though. I don't think anybody will disagree that that is wrong.

    Did Google record any hidden SSIDs? I bet they did. That sounds like acknowledgment you aren't welcome in a system (even if it is easily defeated).

  60. Re:When you broadcast your personal info unencrypt by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

    None that have a built-in megaphone. More to the point, if anybody were stupid enough to use such a phone without some sort of cipher in place, they'd be laughed at for expecting privacy. That's the point - if a phone isn't encrypted, it's still point-to-point. Wifi is a broadcast mechanism, and the only way to secure it is encryption. Note I didn't say "effective" encryption, and Google wasn't cracking WEP.

    The intent of a phone user is to keep his conversation private. The intent of a WiFi network is to broadcast traffic to all that can hear it, unless it's encrypted, in which case the intent is still to broadcast it to everybody that can hear it, but limit the understanding of it to those that have the key.

    --
    I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  61. Re:Just because... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

    Google didn't use a telescopic lens. You (anyone who used an unencrypted WiFi network) projected it onto the side of their house.

    --
    I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  62. Re:Just because... by Kielistic · · Score: 1

    They were definitely using high grade equipment though. I would consider a high gain antenna to be analogous to a telescopic lens.

    People project photons out of places they have an expectation of privacy considering you have the right angle and the right equipment as well.

    The problem isn't necessarily that Google got off easy (I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it, definitely grey area). The problem is what do you think would have happened if you or I built a machine to do this and drove around the United States? Especially if you ever drove anywhere remotely close to a government building. Don't forget to keep in mind that people have gotten pretty heavy charges brought against them for no more than typing a url into a browser which is even more so broadcast for everyone to see.

  63. Re:Just because... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

    The problem is what do you think would have happened if you or I built a machine to do this and drove around the United States? Especially if you ever drove anywhere remotely close to a government building.

    Like a radio scanner? People use those to the time to listen to actual live police activity, and it's perfectly legal (unless you're using that to assist with committing a crime IIRC)

    Turns out that important government radio communication is encrypted so that these very same eavesdroppers can't make use of it. Not illegal to listen, nor even particularly frowned upon, they just make it impossible to do so if they want you to stop. Almost exactly the situation here.

    It gets even better. I had a professor who showed that many "encrypted" government radios in fact weren't encrypted because they had misleading displays, or they were incorrectly configured, even when all the equipment was capable of it. He was listening to live drug raids and so on - tactical information that could have assisted real criminals, such as identifying features of undercover operatives and informants, identities and locations of surveillance targets, plans and locations for forthcoming takedowns, and details of executive protection operations. You know what happened to him? He got a nice paper about it. Of course it helps to be a researcher, not a guy with a "manifesto".

    Don't forget to keep in mind that people have gotten pretty heavy charges brought against them for no more than typing a url into a browser which is even more so broadcast for everyone to see.

    With the notable exception of child pornography (and I have an issue with criminal charges for possession for precisely this reason, but even so it's not exactly "broadcast for everyone to see"), I'm not aware of any. Citations?

    --
    I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  64. Too harsh by stenvar · · Score: 1

    Google passively recorded unencrypted broadcast signals. That should be legal and Google should not have received any punishment.

    Swartz physically broke into a private network and was threatened with a maximum of 6 months in jail, a reasonable position for the prosecutor to take.

  65. Re:Yes, it's legal, since 1934. Here's why by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Of course if you're a US telephone company, the communications act of 1934 doesn't apply because you OWN the FCC.

    They also own the wires and by default you're generally allowed to do whatever you want with your own property.

  66. Re:Yes, it's legal, since 1934. Here's why by strikethree · · Score: 1

    If you've ever recorded static, you've recorded someone's wireless transmission.

    No. That is not true. Static is the Cosmic Microwave Background and is present everywhere on this planet (and theoretically the entire universe). The CMB is the leftover from the Big Bang.

    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/5264/is-x-noise-on-tv-due-to-big-bangs-background-radiation

    I wanted to link to NASA but for some reason, it is not resolving for me currently. Very weird. http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/cobe_background.html

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  67. 1% is not 100% by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Your links claim that maybe 1% of the static could be from the Big Bang. 99% is your neighbor's wifi, a radio station in Mexico, the other neighbors cordless phone, someone's cell phone conversation, etc.