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Where Can You Find an Electric Vehicle Charging Network? Estonia

Posted by timothy on from the can't-get-there-from-here-by-electric-car dept.

MatthewVD writes "How hard can it be to find an electric car charger? So hard that New York Times reporter David Broder had to drive in circles and drain his Tesla's battery. Charging infrastructure has been ultimate chicken or egg problem for electric cars adoption but finally, there's a good test case. In Estonia, drivers need to travel only 37 miles to reach a CHAdeMO quick charger. There are 165 of the direct current plug-in chargers, that can charge a car's lithium battery in 30 minutes for an average cost of $3.25. The question now is, will the electric vehicles follow?"

40 of 220 comments (clear)

  1. all of Estonia, huh? by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's almost as big as West Virginia!

    --
    10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
    1. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by aliquis · · Score: 2

      That's almost as big as West Virginia!

      There's also less people and lower GDP per capita.

      https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/en.html
      Population: 1,274,709 (July 2012 est.)
      GDP - per capita: $21,200 (2012 est.)

    2. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 5, Informative

      FEWER people, and they have electronic everything, schools, taxes, public offices and public information is public. Oh and they have way lower poverty rate than the US of A. And incarceration, but hey, EVERYONE has.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    3. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by hedwards · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're saying a former Soviet block nation which is about the size of West Virginia has newer things than the US? Of course they do, most of the Soviet crap was garbage and it's really easy to get new stuff if the old stuff isn't still viable for use. Just buying the average or below average gear would do it. It's a lot tougher to justify getting a lot of that stuff if the stuff you have is working fine.

      As for electronic everything, is that really desirable? We have most of that stuff available over the internet here as well, it's just not all that it's cracked up to be.

      What's more, you're ignoring the fact that things like this don't scale very well. Look at China, as an example, the government is reforming their educational system, but it's probably going to take 40 years or more for it to really take effect as they have about 1/3 of the teachers and schools necessary to get the job done. What's more, you're talking about a country which has about half as many students as the US has total people.

      I know it's really popular to bad mouth the US, but try and exercise at least some common sense, will you. Managing a tiny country like Estonia is several orders of magnitude easier than managing one the size of the US and managing the US is considerably easier than managing one the size of India or China.

    4. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's almost as big as West Virginia!

      But 14 times the size of Rhode Island! More to the point, Estonia is many times bigger than many of our major metropolitan areas (including the surrounding suburbs), and with a population of 1.3M it has fewer people than many of them too. In the US electric car infrastructure should be concentrated in metropolitan areas.

      Despite Tesla's desire to show their cars and the current infrastructure are suitable for interstate travel, most people are going to be interested in them for commuting and travel within their area. Even the quick charge stations are a lot slower than filling your car with gas. The "perfect time for a meal break" won't cut it if you're trying to make serious time. Most electric cars will probably be bought by people who can afford more than one car, or by somebody who's spouse/partner/[future-politically-correct-reference] has a conventional car (I'm seriously considering doing that when my car dies, which will be before my wife's). Ergo a charging infrastructure within a metropolitan area should be fine.I you're on I-80 in the middle of Wyoming, use petroleum distillates.

      Rental cars might be a good market too. When I fly somewhere on business and rent a car, I rarely take it that far. Most few day business trips could easily be handled by a single charge. Maybe companies could call themselves green because they require their employees to rent electric cars.

      Lastly government could play a role here (yes, I'm an evil statist). All those white strippo cars with "official government use only" signs could probably be electric, since they rarely make long trips. Best of all: those little local postal delivery trucks with the right-hand drive are a perfect candidate. They typically drive three doors down, stop the engine, deliver mail to a few houses, and start up again. I'd be surprised if the starters last more than six months. They also travel a short and well defined route every day.

    5. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Funny

      They have less poverty, less crime, less people in jail... I'll get modded down but compare their demographics to the US. Notice anything?

      You mean, aside the attempted fallacy of equivocation?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    6. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ACS+Solver · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a Latvian, I have to say I respect what Estonians have done. They've managed to be the leaders or pioneers in certain things like electric vehicles or electronic voting. Nice social stability there and Estonians are generally doing well. Yes, the average income of ~800 EUR doesn't look too good by most Western country standards, but they're doing the best out of all ex-Soviet countries. Already in Eurozone, and fastest growing EU economy. With their small population and little in terms of natural resources, that is impressive.

    7. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't want "leaders", I want "public servants". There are occasions when we need leaders, but these tend to be during a crises of some sort. People who fancy themselves to be leaders is what gets us to the state we are in.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 2

      and I don't know where he got that usa has higher poverty rate - they don't

      Maybe, maybe not. According to some, what I said isn't without merit.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    9. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's a lot tougher to justify getting a lot of that stuff if the stuff you have is working fine.

      Efficiency. The US don't care.

      As for electronic everything, is that really desirable?

      Fewer bureauc-rats.

      We have most of that stuff available over the internet here as well, it's just not all that it's cracked up to be.

      You're holding it wrong.

      What's more, you're ignoring the fact that things like this don't scale very well

      Yes, they do.

      Look at China, as an example, the government is

      corrupt and bureaucraticised, so

      reforming their educational system, is probably going to take upwards from 40 years or more for it to really take effect as they have about 1/3 of the teachers and schools necessary to get the job done.

      That's the point - to make them useful, but unnecessary.

      What's more, you're talking about a country which has about half as many students as the US has total people.

      So what? They have more students even relatively. Better ones too.

      I know it's really popular to bad mouth the US, but try and exercise at least some common sense, will you.

      It's not that it's popular. It's reasonable, justified and constructive.

      Managing a tiny country like Estonia is several orders of magnitude easier than managing one the size of the US.

      Especially when attempts are actually made. And it's easier when it's augmented by electronics. That's my point, dimwit. Do you know what the US have made all-electronic? Remote war crime.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    10. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Because if you have them in everyone's driveway, you have to upgrade your electricity distribution pretty drastically.

      Not if you mostly charge when people are asleep, when electricity demand is otherwise lowest. And "mostly" is all you need, as you're talking about averages. Average commuting distance in the US is only 32 miles round trip. Charging a Tesla Model S for that range requires 9kWh of AC. That's 1kW over a 9 hour period, or 4.2% of the peak capacity of a house with very modest electrical service (100A).

    11. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by stymy · · Score: 2

      Average income doesn't matter. What matters is what you can buy there with that income. I don't know much about how things are in Estonia, but I can tell you that in Bolivia you can get a live-in maid for under $100 a month, and so forth. So there, you can live like a king for what would be a very low wage in most of Europe or North America. It sounds like it's similar in Estonia.

  2. s/David/John/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    David Broder was the White House correspondent for the Washington Post for many decades, who passed away a couple years ago. When I read the summary I thought, that can't be the same guy who got into a pissing match with Elon Musk!

  3. Re:Nice! by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Funny

    "It's 1000 kilometers to Estonia. We've got a full charge, half a packet of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses... Hit it."

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  4. The Netherlands by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just recently got back from the Netherlands and it amazed me how seriously they take charging points, they were everywhere. Along with high rise bicycle parks. I suppose when your country is mostly below sea level you take global warming and conservation as a proven fact. Simple countrywide risk management I suppose.

    1. Re:The Netherlands by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A considerable portion of the Netherlands is below sea level. And because of the way that the laws of physics work, you can't just make the dikes taller, you have to ultimately replace them with ones that are stronger at the bottom as well, otherwise you start getting cracks. And I doubt the EU would be too fond of having numerous children skipping school to plug the holes with their fingers.

    2. Re:The Netherlands by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Dude you are wacked, WTF does global warming have to do with fucking ELEVATION?

      A future Secretary of Energy, fresh from CPAC.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You couldn't be more wrong, the Netherlands is one of the least "green" powered countries in the EU. There is almost no stimulus to go green, instead we just import nuclear energy from surrounding countries and are building a couple of coal powered energy plants.

    4. Re:The Netherlands by FridayBob · · Score: 2

      It just so happens that I live in the Netherlands, but I'm not impressed with the availability of charging points. At least, not in my municipality. Things may be better in Amsterdam. There is an NPO, called "e-laad" (e-charge), that was set up by the power companies to install charging points all over the Netherlands (also on request), but then their budget dried up. Which is strange, because if there is a demand, why is there no more supply? This makes it tempting to conclude that the power companies want to look like they're paying the concept more than lip service, but are not really that enthusiastic. On the other hand, it's not like I know a lot of people who can't wait to get their hands on an electric care either; they're still a relatively rare sight. Nevertheless, I look forward to receiving my Lit C-1; with a range of 200 miles or more, I doubt that I'll be making much use of public charging points.

    5. Re:The Netherlands by sosume · · Score: 2

      There are TWO charging points per electric car in the Netherlands. And people are NOT intrerested in driving them. Talking about wasting resources, taxpayers money and free parking spaces .. Everyone I'm talking to, who's interested in real solutions for the environment is waiting for a H2 powered car. Nothing less.

  5. You Don't Get Out Much by Wovel · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Broder story was BS. It has been pretty soundly refuted from Tesla and other reporters. I guess the people approving these stories don't actually read slashdot...

    1. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      The Broder story was BS. It has been pretty soundly refuted from Tesla and other reporters. I guess the people approving these stories don't actually read slashdot...

      Since you've obviously picked a side here, you probably won't be interested in this update from Jalopnik:

      A source who has seen the data logs explains how it's possible how Broder and Musk could both be truthful but sort of wrong. The high-voltage battery in the pack, allegedly, had enough power to move the car a much greater distance than needed to move the car onto a flatbed, maybe as far as five miles, but the 12V battery that powers the accessories and gets its juice from the high voltage battery shut down when Broder pulled into the service station.

      When Broder decided to turn the car off, which was a mistake, the parking brake (operated by the 12V battery) was rendered unusable. If Broder was told not to turn the car off, it's his mistake. If Tesla told him to do it, or didn't inform him he shouldn't do it, then it's their mistake.

      If anybody sold you a $100,000 sports car, then told you the only way to keep the brakes from locking is to leave it running, unattended, you'd probably write a shitty review yourself.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      That's one small detail that matters little in light of the fact that Broder lied about so many other more important things. He really tried hard to make that car fail. Really hard.

      Lots of other people have made the same trip with plenty of range to spare. Even accounting for temperature variations and traffic Broder's story has been proven to be bullshit.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  6. Early adopters always have a hard time... by celticryan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seems like this is something technology always deals with - cars and roads OR cell phones and cell towers - early adopters always have difficulties. How is this surprising?

  7. Standards by virgnarus · · Score: 2

    So, is that an average cost of $3.25 per gallon of amps? Or $3.25 per litre of voltage?

    1. Re:Standards by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2

      No, Its not 3.25 per Kilowatt hour. They paid 3.25 for the half hour. The amount of charge transferred is not known. It could be 3.25 per kilowatt hour, but there is not enough information to state that.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    2. Re:Standards by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      So, is that an average cost of $3.25 per gallon of amps? Or $3.25 per litre of voltage?

      $3.25 for ~30 KWh (charging rate for these things is about 65 KW).

      So, 330 of the things in Estonia, they each support one vehicle at a time...~8000 EV's per day supported by the entire network, assuming that every one of them is being used 24/7?

      Hmm, wonder how far your average EV goes on 30 KWh....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:Standards by The+Wannabe+King · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, is that an average cost of $3.25 per gallon of amps? Or $3.25 per litre of voltage?

      $3.25 for ~30 KWh (charging rate for these things is about 65 KW).

      So, 330 of the things in Estonia, they each support one vehicle at a time...~8000 EV's per day supported by the entire network, assuming that every one of them is being used 24/7?

      Hmm, wonder how far your average EV goes on 30 KWh....

      You seem to lack experience with electric vehicles, so let me enlighten you. I have driven a Leaf 12 000 miles the last year and know a thing or two:

      Most EV owners will use these stations very rarely. Charging is usually done at night or at work when the vehicle is parked anyway. Any ordinary electrical outlet will supply enough energy in 8 hours for a lot of driving. Assuming 230V/10A 8 hours will give 230*10*8*0.9 ~= 16 kWh of energy (90 % charging efficiency) This is enough for at least 80 km, possibly more than 100 km, depending on roads and driving style. Most places, at least in my country, 16A is available most places which would add 60 % to the above figures.

      Quick charging is only ever used if you want to go much farther than usual, which should happen rarely. Few people will buy an EV if the daily commute cannot be done on a single charge, possibly charging in both ends. Luckily, most people commute much shorter than the range of current EVs and with this quick charger network, they can cover longer distances when needed, albeit spending some time charging. Thus this network can service a lot more than 8000 cars. It will be interesting to see if this will result in mass adoption of EVs in Estonia. The infrastructure is certainly there, but I fear EVs are still a tad too expensive for a population that isn't too rich generally.

    4. Re:Standards by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      You can still gauge an upper limit to the expense, though. It can't cost more than $3.25 to go 37 miles - $0.09 per mile is the max cost here. The same trip would cost you about $0.13, assuming a gas price of $4/gallon and a sedan getting 30MPG. So even if we assume the worst, it's like driving a car that gets 45MPG.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  8. Good Job! by jamesl · · Score: 2, Funny

    Estonia now has three charging stations for each and every electric car in the country. Good Job!

  9. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Wovel · · Score: 2

    Torque...

  10. Re:Nice! by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 2

    We're on a mission from God!

  11. Almost proud... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sounds great on paper! Not so great when you consider that our electricity here in Estonia comes mostly from oil shale which means there is no environmental advantage to electric vehicles. So all of this in the end comes down to fuel cost - getting an electric vehicle only makes sense if you are rich enough to be buying a new car (most normal people over here buy 5-10 year old used one), but if you are rich you don't care how much fuel costs.

    Honestly Estonia is one of the worst countries for this recharging network...

    On the other hand all of this came from CO2 emission license thingy sales so it was almost free and we did not have an alternative anyway...

    1. Re:Almost proud... by compro01 · · Score: 2

      Not so great when you consider that our electricity here in Estonia comes mostly from oil shale which means there is no environmental advantage to electric vehicles.

      Sure there is. One big plant is far more efficient than hundreds of little engines, even after accounting for transmission and charging losses. You also save quite a lot of energy by not having to crack/upgrade the shale into gasoline/diesel.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  12. Re:Nice! by fnj · · Score: 2

    You drive. You drive. I think there's something wrong with me.
    -- Dr. Gonzo

  13. Re:Nice! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I told some Estonian fellows that they’re slow.
    “What did they reply?”
    “Nothing, but they beat me up the following day. “

  14. Re:Direct current by jeffmeden · · Score: 4, Funny

    Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that Tesla's charging stations are using direct current...

    You wouldn't want the charging station to kill any wayward elephants, now would you? I mean, think of the elephants

    /Edison

  15. Re:Charging points by 0123456 · · Score: 2

    EVs are great except for one big problem - the batteries. They're too expensive for not enough capacity. That's improving, but it's going to be a while.

    You could have said pretty much the same about electric cars a century ago, so it could be a long 'while'.

  16. Re:There's an app for that... by PRMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm looking for click-in standardized replacement batteries. I pull up to a station. Unclick my batteries and put them in the charger and immediately click in replacements and leave. I'm not waiting around for 30 minutes to charge my car.

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  17. Re:Estonia has cars? by rubycodez · · Score: 2

    maybe you're confused with the Elbonia in Dilbert strips. Estonia is much different, it's a land of lakes, fens and bogs, not mud. the difference is plants and moss grow in that glop. Also, they don't wear funny hats, except when it's cold or to sporting events.