Slashdot Mirror


Do Nations Have the Right To Kill Enemy Hackers?

Nerval's Lobster writes "Cyber-attacks are much in the news lately, thanks to some well-publicized hacks and rising concerns over malware. Many of these attacks are likely backed in some way by governments anxious to seize intellectual property, or simply probe other nations' IT infrastructure. But do nations actually have a right to fire off a bomb or a clip of ammunition at cyber-attackers, especially if a rival government is backing the latter as part of a larger hostile action? Should a military hacker, bored and exhausted from twelve-hour days of building malware, be regarded in the same way as a soldier with a rifle? Back in 2009, the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence (which also exists under the lengthy acronym NATO CCD COE) commissioned a panel of experts to produce a report on the legal underpinnings of cyber-warfare. NATO CCD COE isn't funded by NATO, and nor is it a part of that organization's command-and-control structure—but those experts did issue a nonbinding report (known as "The Tallinn Manual on the International Law Applicable to Cyber Warfare") exploring the ramifications of cyber-attacks, and what targeted nations can do in response. It's an interesting read, and the experts do suggest that, under circumstances, a nation under cyber-attack can respond to the cyber-attackers with "kinetic force," so long as that force is proportional. Do you agree?"

31 of 482 comments (clear)

  1. Yes. by egcagrac0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A nation should be able to retaliate against attack.

    It would be morally wrong to not try a hacking counterattack first, however.

    1. Re:Yes. by Barlo_Mung_42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. There isn't enough transparency to be sure we are killing the right person in such a case. We bomb to many innocent people as it is.

    2. Re:Yes. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is locating the attacker.

      Rather than the cracked computer that Grandma hasn't updated since she bought it 8 years ago.

      Any cracker should be going through at least 2 levels of zombies he controls that are configured to dump all the logs to /dev/null.

      Drone strike on the senior center.

    3. Re:Yes. by Fluffeh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A nation should be able to retaliate against attack.

      I think the old saying "If you play with fire, you might get burnt..." applies here. Do I think it is right, yes and no at the same time. Just because the hacker is sitting in an office typing on a keyboard doesn't mean he/she isn't inflicting real world harm on others in another part of the world. At the same time, I think it would likely be a huge escalation to go from something being hacked to dropping a bomb - but that's not to say that dumb things don't happen - especially when politicians are involved.

      I think anyone who is doing harm to another country, whether it is with a rifle and boots, or with a keyboard and an internet connection is fair game.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    4. Re:Yes. by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It makes a huge difference whether somebody is armed or using a computer. So, what's next, we bomb Chinese factories because their goods harm Americans? Because that's about as rational as what you're suggesting.

      Taking human life needs to be done thoughtfully, doing it because you can is something that states are supposed to aspire not to do. And really, they shouldn't be taking life over this sort of thing.

    5. Re:Yes. by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It does need tio be considered carefully, but a cyberwarfare hacker and facility are every bit as much a legitimate target of war as a central headquarters, signals intelligence installation or codebreakers. However, if a shooting war hasn't (yet) broken out, it is also just as much an escalation as bombing any other military target would be.

    6. Re:Yes. by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cyber attacks falls under espionage. Nations have been killing spies for thousands of years. There is always a risk when killings spys of killing a civilion. They generally don't use bombs to do it though.

    7. Re:Yes. by vidnet · · Score: 5, Funny

      Let's do it. This would solve the growing cost of pensions, and open up lawns for kids everywhere.

    8. Re:Yes. by gl4ss · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they don't have the right to just kill random dudes around the world without a trial. where the fuck did you get that idea? obama? bush?

      maybe, maybe if they first define that they're in a war with the said enemy country and then start bombing them or invade them and kill the said hacker in battle(just shooting them in cold blood and not taking them as POW would still not be right).

      even then it's debatable if they have the right for it. doesn't mean that some countries wouldn't do shit like that without declaring war though. it just doesn't make it right.

      where the fuck did you guys learn your ethics for war? from fucking terrorists? what's next, saying it's ok to use mustard gas on suspected hooligans since shop keepers have a right to defend their porch? gunning down someone who stole your wifi is ok?

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    9. Re:Yes. by craigminah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've been saying that war is too civil, too precise, and not horrific enough. War has become tolerable with attacks that kill exactly who you want with little collateral damage (usually). If war was more horrible people would do more to prevent it. Reminds me of the Star Trek episode "A Taste of Armageddon" which is a great episode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon).

      Buildings suspected to harboring haxors should be napalmed (just kidding...we should counter-hack them).

    10. Re:Yes. by dnorman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the difference is that a spy is traditionally on enemy soil, so are likely considered more fair game. a hacker is likely operating from a basement bunker in virginia etc...

      --


      It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    11. Re:Yes. by Belial6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A draft is not going to push the burden of war on to the wealthy. Just like when there was a draft before, the wealthy will just fit in the "exceptions" category. Whether that is because they can afford college, or they can have one of their cronies arrange for their kid to get a states side posting.

    12. Re:Yes. by StormyWeather · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are morally opposed to bombing, that's cool, I can respect that seriously.

      However if we bomb a janitor trying to feed his family and taking the only job he can find at a bullet manufacturing plant and kill him, then what makes him so diametrically more involved in war than someone writing software to guide missiles, or someone who writes software to melt down an enemy nuclear rector or worse.

      Rules of war are a zany thing, especially since one side (the underdogs) usually ignores them completely and figures they probably won't be alive to see the aftermath of that decision, or they will be a totalitarian regime, and won't have to face the music.

    13. Re:Yes. by sanman2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Or we could do what Kirk did and destroy all the critical computer systems, thus forcing the cyber-attackers to build real bombs to wage real war rather than their current cyber-war.

      Then we could invite the cyber-attackers to a peace conference, since they'd now be afraid of real pain and suffering.

      Then we could kill them all at that conference.

    14. Re:Yes. by StormyWeather · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How much water is behind the hoover dam which software controls? How much mass is in a tomahawk missile that runs on software? How much mass; is in a bunker buster, that is guided by GPS which is also run on military software?

      Without software no modern military would be able to mount a campaign.

      I know man, I don't want to get killed either, but just saying the guy that holds a joystick flying a drone bombing people isn't really that much better than someone shooting bullets other than he has air conditioning and a chair.

    15. Re:Yes. by DarkOx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have argued before the least moral war is the one you are not really trying to win. Fundamentally the activity of war will kill, maim, and destroy property. If you are going to do those things you should have a damn good reason. If you have such a reason than it follows really very few targets should be off limits; we are already killing, maiming and destroying lively hoods for the cause after all. Total war really is the only just form of war. There is still some line, bombing an elementary school deliberately would be crossing it; for example, or maybe not if you have good cause to think the enemy is using them as human shields. The reality is war not the men of tribe slugging it out with sticks and stones.

      War is factories building munitions, its banks financing the factories and facilitating payrolls, its farmers raising crops to feed troops, etc. These are staffed with people who are at least in some way complicit in some way. Your janitors job is necessary to the war effort if not directly. A munitions factory is a hazardous place and more so if not maintained; if something happened that impaired its output the war effort might be hurt. So even if he is just sweeping the floors he is doing it in a place the purpose of which is killing the enemy. Arguably any one who inst a child, invalid, or war protestor is a collaborator. Is the farmer growing corn and selling it the army to feed troops more or less culpable a soldier who may be a conscript? Any capital asset can be weaponized or turned toward war fighting use. This is just the reality of war between modern states.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    16. Re:Yes. by Dogtanian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you suggesting this as a serious possibility, or trying to illustrate (via ludicrousness) how unworkable such tactics would be unless we convert the Internet into something *totally* different to what it is today?

      If the former, I'd like to point out that such tactics would be unworkable unless we converted the Internet into something totally different to what it is today. :-)

      In all seriousness, there's no way that you'll *ever* be able to isolate any country on the Internet today from any other country- no matter how hard you try. Unless you totally isolate that country from *every* other one, and seal all holes, it'll still be possible to get through by indirect means.

      "Secure Club"? Works well, provided there are absolutely *no* holes whatsoever in the outside of this massive infrastructure, and everyone is happy to go along with your plans exactly as you want them. Which is to say, it's not going to work in reality.

      In fact, it's clear that even if the US decided it wanted to cut itself off entirely from *every* other country- while retaining approximately the same level of infrastructure within the US- it would be ludicrously difficult and unlikely to work.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    17. Re:Yes. by TFAFalcon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just start assassinating enemy leaders as the basic response to attacks and there will be a lot more peace in the world. Imagine if every time N Korea created an incident, their leader got shot/bombed. Or if the UK killed off the leadership of Argentina when the Falklands were invaded.

      Proportional response is a good thing. But why direct it at cannon fodder and not at the people in charge? If you come under attack by state sponsored hackers, then kill off their heads of state. You'll get a much more satisfactory result with fewer casualties.

    18. Re:Yes. by wiredlogic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's not a fair accusation because you are examining those actions through the lens of modern warfare where precision munitions are a reliable and effective tool. That capability didn't exist back then and they applied the technology they had as best they could.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    19. Re:Yes. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A draft is not going to push the burden of war on to the wealthy.

      A draft pushes even more of the burden onto the poor.

      With the draft: Rich kids get exemptions. Poor kids get drafted, sent to war, and get paid peanuts.

      Without the draft: Poor kids go to war, but at least get paid enough to entice them to volunteer.

  2. Proportionate Response by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If said hacker is messing with infrastructure, yes. That sort of thing can put lives at risk.

    1. Re:Proportionate Response by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would but my "team" doesn't represent me. And I believe that is the case for most governments these days.

      Fact is, the government and the people are far enough apart these days to be completely different species.

    2. Re:Proportionate Response by vux984 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, one could calculate the total amount of force used by the hacker while pressing his keys and retaliate proportionally.

      So if the hacker's been pounding away on his beloved Model-M, then we can drop a bunker buster on him and call it even.

      His neighbors would probably appreciate the quiet too.

  3. Strongly Agree by GameboyRMH · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now, to hack into RIAA headquarters and launch an attack from there in the name of Al Quaeda! Take off every drone!

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  4. Irrelevant by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The biggest threats to our freedom, safety, and economic well being come from our own governments, not foreign ones. When we start using proportional force against internal threats, we can start talking about what proportional force against external threats is.

    IOW, I'm a lot more scared of Goldman Sachs than I am scared of China.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  5. A parallel by mhajicek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Should a factory worker manufacturing weapons and munitions be targeted? In war historically they have been. I think the main problem now is that we don't have distinct times of war and peace, we have a messy in-between all the time.

    1. Re:A parallel by Kaenneth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My (German) grandfather would have fought in the battle of the bulge; but due to equipment shortage wasn't able to go. Everyone else in his unit who went, died.

      Bombing factories made me possible.

  6. Yes. Cynicism begin. Valid targets everywhere... by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And shouldn't drone pilots from and within the USA be just as much a target for targeted killing by the "other side" even while they are located in the USA geographical boundaries? So if the cyberwarfare hacker is still a legitimate target while not actively engaged in the "war activity", couldn't a USA drone pilot be legitimately targeted while walking into a grocery store to buy groceries for her/his family and herself/himself? There's a lot to think about when we decide to expand the boundaries of what we are allowed to do while still claiming "nya-nya-nya, you can't do that to us while we can do that to you", mostly because of the assymetry of our tactical abilities.
    .
    Overreaching on moral boundaries because of our tactical abilities could be our downfall when we no longer have the tactical advantage. We no longer have the moral advantage (considering the things that have already been done in "our" name, since it is our USA and our armed forces and our "special forces" that have carried out extra-ordinary rendition, torture in Abu Ghraim, extra-judicial kidnappings and extra-judicial extra-warfare executions/assassinations) but it makes to sense to keep digging ourselves deeper when we could actually be a beacon of sensibility to the world. Oh, wait, that's not really our goal, is it, regardless of whether the Republicans or Democrats are leading in the Executive or in the Legislative branches of our government.

  7. Re:Libya, not Syria by dcollins · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Whups - we launched missiles into Libya, not Syria. Hard to keep these issues straight. I don't believe we launched missiles into Syria yet - have we?"

    And that, kids, is American foreign policy in a nutshell, right there.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  8. Re:WARNING by bloodhawk · · Score: 3, Informative

    Perhaps you should go reread the Geneva convention. It is actually very explicit about protection of civilians, your country being at war does not in any way open its citizens up to attack under the convention. The Fourth Geneva Convention is all about protection of non combatants in a war zone.

  9. Re: IUD's !== IEDs by dwye · · Score: 3, Interesting

    On the other hand, the British redcoats saw the American militias as terrorists,

    Banastre Tarleton aside, the British DID see members of the American militia and the Continental Army as legitimate soldiers, because they took them as prisoners of war rather than just bayoneting them. Of course, they stored the PoWs on hulks in conditions that would make Abu Ghraib at its worst look like the Marriott, and a large portion of those prisoners died of various diseases (e.g., typhus) before they could be exchanged, but that is more the fault of the 18th century army and lack of sanitation in the pre-Pasteur, pre-Lister era.