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Twitter Sued For $50M For Refusing To Identify Anti-Semitic Users

Posted by Soulskill on from the feeding-the-trolls dept.

redletterdave writes "After a French civil court ruled on Jan. 24 that Twitter must identify anyone who broke France's hate speech laws, Twitter has since refused to identify the users behind a handful of hateful and anti-Semitic messages, resulting in a $50 million lawsuit. Twitter argues it only needs to comply with U.S. laws and is thus protected by the full scope of the First Amendment and its free speech privileges, but France believes its Internet users should be subject to the country's tighter laws against racist and hateful forms of expression."

33 of 335 comments (clear)

  1. I've been waiting for this... by FrankSchwab · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is an internet company responsible to the country that it operates from, or is it responsible to every country that they can be reached from?

    The second would be a remarkably scary result.

    --
    And the worms ate into his brain.
    1. Re:I've been waiting for this... by iamhassi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Is an internet company responsible to the country that it operates from, or is it responsible to every country that they can be reached from?

      The second would be a remarkably scary result.

      This stuff has already gone to court. Google execs were charged with crimes in italy for YouTube videos showing bullying. Google ignored it and Italy couldn't do anything. If Internet was ruled by every law in every country then it wouldn't exist. Sorry France you lose.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    2. Re:I've been waiting for this... by bungo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For sure, it's responsible to any country that it can be successfully sued from.

      After all, it's just a company, being on the internet doesn't make it any different. It's like saying that all of those silly patents that replicate existing procedures are suddenly different and patentable because they do it on the computer.

      If the court system in a country can sue and get the ability to enforce a judgement, then the company is responsible to that country. If the share holders don't lose any money, then there's no problem.

      --
      "The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
    3. Re:I've been waiting for this... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Informative

      Is an internet company responsible to the country that it operates from, or is it responsible to every country that they can be reached from?

      Likely, it will come down to if they have a regional variant of their service or local servers.

      If there's only a single twitter.com, and it lives in the US, and everybody hits then likely not.

      But if there is a twitter.fr, and they have a presence in France and promote their service there -- well, then you really are going to be compelled to adhere to local laws. You can't have it both ways. One would hope that reasonably, if I do something in the country I live in, and it's legal, no other country should have any jurisdiction. That way you don't get someone being sued in France for something which is legal where they live. Because half of the internet would be getting sued in countries where saying certain things is illegal, even if they've never been there.

      Twitter can't promote their products in other countries, install infrastructure there, regionalize their product, but claim everything else is covered under US laws.

      Of course, that's great in theory -- who knows what a court would decide in reality.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:I've been waiting for this... by mdw2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In many places these draconian anti-speech laws are popular with the local people. This would not end the way you think it would.

      --
      This sig intentionally left blank.
    5. Re:I've been waiting for this... by qwe4rty · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or he is from Australia and a their upside is equivalent to a northern hemisphere downside.

    6. Re:I've been waiting for this... by BitterOak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How long until posting anonymously on sites like Slashdot is forbidden? (I can see an upside to this)

      Some of the most insightful comments I've seen on Slashdot have been posted by Anonymous Cowards, and I've seen some absolute drivel posted by people with usernames, so what's your point?

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    7. Re:I've been waiting for this... by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Is an internet company responsible to the country that it operates from, or is it responsible to every country that they can be reached from?

      The second would be a remarkably scary result.

      This stuff has already gone to court. Google execs were charged with crimes in italy for YouTube videos showing bullying. Google ignored it and Italy couldn't do anything. If Internet was ruled by every law in every country then it wouldn't exist. Sorry France you lose.

      I think Italy arrested a few Google execs from Google Italy, which wouldn't be as scary - in which case as long as Twitter has no French connections (no servers, etc) then France can't do anything. If they do, France can go after the French company.

      (Which is basically OP's point 1 - since the company has operations in various countries, they have to comply with the law, but only in those countries).

      At the very worst, if a twitter exec was passing through France, they could potentially be arrested until the fine is paid for, I suppose.

      Since I don't think Twitter has any assets or anything in France, the French government can't do a thing unless they can convince the rest of the EU that it's worth pursuing through other EU assets. Maybe. They can also arrest any twitter exec passing through France, I suppose - the US does it.

      Of course, this would mean that while Twitter is protected by US laws, it's also subject to the whims of the US government, including those ones on copyright infringement and such.

    8. Re:I've been waiting for this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sorry France you lose.

      No surprises there.

    9. Re:I've been waiting for this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The internet is "ruled" by whatever rules the host country allows (or is unable to fend off). In the case of Italy going after Google, the USA is the host country, and Google knows that it has nothing to fear because Italy doesn't have the ability to force the USA to hand anyone over for something that isn't a crime in the USA.

      But then on the flip side, you've got the USA going after people in the UK, New Zealand, etc, and succeeding despite the fact that no laws were broken in the host country because, this time around, the country doing the prosecuting does have the ability to force the host country to be its bitch.

    10. Re:I've been waiting for this... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The moment an exec from Twitter steps within French jurisdiction (which extends a lot further than you think), arrests will be made for contempt of court - look at what happened to the British online gambling company execs arrested in the US for making gambling services available to US citizens, despite the entire infrastructure and company being based outside the US.

      Exactly the same situation as here.

    11. Re:I've been waiting for this... by DavidD_CA · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It amuses me to think that some low-level IT guy from Twitter might one day go to Paris for his honeymoon ... only to get arrested at the airport until a $50 M fine is paid.

      --
      -David
    12. Re:I've been waiting for this... by bsDaemon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At that point, it almost sounds like kidnapping for ransom...

    13. Re:I've been waiting for this... by v1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Though I think there is precedent against it, most (reasonable) countries' legal systems won't attempt to hold someone liable for crimes described by their legal system, committed while outside their country. Interpol (I believe) and extradition treaties can work around this however. Generally extradition is only to send you back to where you were when you committed the crime, in case you try to leave the country to escape local justice.

      As others above have pointed out, if anyone, anywhere in the world, could be held liable for doing something which is illegal somewhere else in the world, we'd all be in jail. Imagine if Shari law could be enforced in the USA for example.

      The internet shouldn't be an exception here. Twitter is providing a service, and if your country's citizens are reaching out and obtaining that service from outside your borders, holding the overseas company liable is silly. If you want to go after someone, go after your own citizens. Or go the great firewall route.

      This is like Iran trying to sue some company in the USA for providing instructions for how to use contraceptives on their USA-hosted website.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    14. Re:I've been waiting for this... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 3

      I would hope that even if someone can be arrested for contempt until the fine is paid, it would have to be someone with the authority to pay the fine. A low-level IT guy, or even a mid-level manager, couldn't pay the fine even if they agreed with the court ruling and wanted to pay.

    15. Re:I've been waiting for this... by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      Considering I'm equally anonymous on Slashdot whether I'm logged in or not

      That's what you think, Steve.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    16. Re:I've been waiting for this... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Funny

      Do you say the same thing about people from Brazil and Argentina?

      Sometimes, but only if they're narcissistic dickheads with no sense of humor.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    17. Re:I've been waiting for this... by v1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well yes, any country can outlaw anything, anywhere. But in almost all cases, they will have no power to enforce their law outside their borders.

      For example, France could have a law that says anyone that wears their hat on backward can be thrown in jail, regardless of where they are at the time they commit the crime, and "must come back or be taken back to France to face justice."

      But most sensible countries understand that it's arrogant, presumptuous, and more importantly, generally a waste of time, to tell someone in another country that they're actively breaking a local law, or to demand that another country hand their citizen over to their zealous justice system.

      Unfortunately, now and then we see cases where someone does something that's legal where they are, but illegal somewhere else, and then travels back to the country where the prior action was illegal, and find themselves arrested. And in VERY extreme and rare cases thankfully, they are basically kidnapped (forcefully deported out of another country, and taken against their will to the other country) and then set on trial. (I think we could call this "being kim-dotcomm'ed) I'm very much against that practice, but it does happen from time to time. And sometimes they even get away with it.

      Normally this wouldn't be an issue that France would be getting too ballsy with, but there's a LOT of money at stake, and nothing "greases the wheels of justice" quite like a fistfull of cash.

      Bottom line here I think is it would be a very bad risk right now for anyone that could be considered "a legal representation of Twitter" to step foot in France. (board member, ceo, etc) It'd be unlikely to pan out in the end, but they definitely get arrested (or at least get their passport taken for awhile) and get things dragged out a bit before someone with authority started publicly lambasting and beating some common sense into the court that's trying to make good on their threat.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    18. Re:I've been waiting for this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dear AC,

      You shall not talk about France that way. Identify yourself or deal with the full wrath and power of the French.

    19. Re:I've been waiting for this... by KZigurs · · Score: 5, Informative

      USA has been doing this for decades... Especially with online gaming companies that might not even serve US customers.

    20. Re:I've been waiting for this... by sveinungkv · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At that point, it almost sounds like kidnapping for ransom...

      Why almost?

      Indeed, that was an apt and true reply which was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride, "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you who does it with a great fleet are styled emperor."

      (Augustine of Hippo in "City of God" book IV Chapter 4)

      --
      Spelling/grammar nazis welcome (English is not my first language and I am trying to improve my spelling/grammar)
    21. Re:I've been waiting for this... by xevioso · · Score: 3, Funny

      Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Pairs?

      A: No one knows.

    22. Re:I've been waiting for this... by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 5, Informative
      Hey, it's already happened here in the USA for Dmitry Sklyarov when he came to the USA to give a presentation. Look at the details at U.S. v. ElcomSoft and Skylarov The case raised some concerns particularly since it involved an individual being prosecuted for activities that were fully legal in the country where they occurred.

      So Twitteronians doing twiittery things that are all legal in teh USA could get stopped, frisked, arrested, and jailed for having done things that are deemed to be illegal elsewhere in this great wide world. :>(

    23. Re:I've been waiting for this... by akozakie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exactly. There are only two fair solutions to this. Either you need to follow the law of all countries in which your service is reachable - fair, but against the spirit of the internet and perhaps not possible at all without self-filtering.

      OR: dear US, next time you want to enforce your own laws abroad - go F yourself. High time to be clear about this. The only law that should concern me is the law of the country I'm in at the moment - and possibly the law of my home country (the price of citizenship). Extraditions ONLY for crimes committed abroad. Zero effect of US law on others (and vice versa).

      Anyway this goes - we desperately need as many cases like this as possible. And, for visibility, we need collateral damage - executives landing in jail during Paris vacation with zero reaction to embassy's intervention, etc. That's the only way to make it clear that either laws get harmonized through negotiations (which can be blocked in a democracy, see ACTA) or they simply do not work outside the border.

      Otherwise it's not a fair world, just a dominium of the one country with the biggest guns. And if you're american and like that thought, learn some world history and consider the fact, that maybe not in 10 years, but in 50, 100, 200... it might not be the USA anymore. How would you like your grandchildren having to observe the laws of, say, China? Or the United States of Arabia, or whatever...

    24. Re:I've been waiting for this... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Funny

      At that point, it almost sounds like kidnapping for ransom...

      Ahh, grasshopper, you only think there's a difference. You have taken your first step.

      Learn how memes rule the world -- how they are about getting large masses of people adopting them, in order to force themselves onto still more people.

      The content is irrelevant from this viewpoint.

      In one -- kidnapping for ransom, people who want money seize someone until they get it. In the other, people who want money seize someone until they get it.

      One thinks of themselves as dirty and rotten, the other as good-hearted and pure. The mechanism and end results are identical.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. So France should fix it by HalAtWork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    France believes its Internet users should be subject to the country's tighter laws against racist and hateful forms of expression.

    Then France can filter their internet. Why does Twitter have to do anything? If France wants censorship, they should implement it.

    --
    Twinstiq, game news
    1. Re:So France should fix it by clam666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exactly. This is an issue for France vs. Internet. Not France vs. Twitter.

      If France decides it really doesn't want to hear tweets about Blue vs. Red states in the U.S., then they can bloody well create Le Carnivore on their own dime and filter those evil horrid thoughts that makes Jews or activists or whiners who never learned to deal with the world go Boo Hoo..

      This is like your little sister crying to mom because you said 'girls have cooties' instead of her cowgirling up and learning to deal with it. Don't want to hear about cooties? Solve your own problems. Don't like people being anti-semitic because it twists your nads? Handle your own homeland. Don't complain because someone, somewhere, is saying something you find "offensive". And stop bowing down to every sociopathic "activist" who thinks words kill rather than actual violence.

      Clearly France needs to hire Adria Richards to manage their twitter relations.

      --
      I'm a satanic clam.
  3. In other news... by srussia · · Score: 5, Funny

    France's nuclear power infrastructure can now be decommissioned, as they have coupled all the turbine generators to Voltaire's grave.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:In other news... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Funny

      Given that it's Voltaire we're talking about, perhaps it would have sufficed to just connect the electrodes...but I'll be candid with you, regarding your optimism, are you sure they'd also get the necessary amperage?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  4. Re:Begging the Question by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Funny

    No, Twitter will show up halfway through the trial and the French will immediately surrender.

    --
    Support my political activism on Patreon.
  5. I'm not surprised that this didn't happen sooner.. by Mashiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After all most countries in the EU have similar law, Canada has similar laws(still) since the bill to strike down various parts of the hate speech laws are still stuck in the senate. The US is the odd ball out. Remember the next time someone starts screaming that hate speech laws are a good idea, they're not. This is spoken by someone who already lives under them. You have no "freedom of expression," you have limited expression as deemed by the government in a very and exceptionally narrowing scope as deemed by unelected bureaucrats in HRC's(human rights councils) who run tribunals outside the court system.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  6. Re:Do TV Broadcasters Have to Put Up With This? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anti-Israeli is not the same as anti-Semitic.

    Surely you can see the difference? Just like one might protest the actions of the US government while holding no ill will towards her people.

  7. Perfect solution by Brett+Buck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Google could just purchase Italy outright. I hear it will be rather a bargain. Problem solved!