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Oracle Releases SPARC T5 Servers; Too Late?

First time accepted submitter bobthesungeek76036 writes "On March 26th, Larry Ellison and always with fashionable haircut John Fowler announced the new line of SPARC servers from Oracle. Touted as the fastest microprocessor in the world, they put up some impressive SPEC numbers against much more expensive (and older) IBM hardware. Is the industry still interested in SPARC or is it too late for Larry to regain the server market that Sun Microsystems had many moons ago?" El Reg has a pretty good overview of the new hardware; the T5 certainly looks interesting for highly threaded work loads (there's some massive SMT going on with 16 threads per core), but with Intel dominating for single-threaded performance and ARM-based servers becoming available squeezing them for massive multi-threading, is there really any hope in Oracle's efforts to stay in the hardware game?

175 comments

  1. In short, yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While the T5 may be insignificant to a huge swath of the server market, there are many sectors (financial, energy, Federal, geo, etc.) that make significant use of SPARC platforms. The T5 is a huge advance to these markets. Oracle's not really struggling to stay in the hardware game is the Reg indicates. They produce much of their x86 gear because they use it in the Exa stuff. Their SPARCs are their bread and butter hardware in terms of raw server power. They will sell them as fast as they can produce them. Their recently announced move of manufacturing facilities from Mexico to Oregon is indicative of demand. They build their Exa's in Oregon. They worked a deal with the Oregon state Gov (tax incentives) to move their server manufacturing there in order to compress the logistics lag in getting the servers for the Exa to the kitting facility. Anyway, just my two cents.

    1. Re:In short, yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While the T5 may be insignificant to a huge swath of the server market, there are many sectors (financial, energy, Federal, geo, etc.) that make significant use of SPARC platforms.

      Yeah, they made extensive use of them through the mid 80s, 90s, and into the 2000s. Then they switched to x86. Or do you live in a universe where SUNW, err JAVA is still trading? The platform was abandoned years ago.

    2. Re:In short, yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with the SPARC product line is Oracle. They have alienated the entire customer base with their heavy handed approach to warranty and support. I can't speak for my entire company (big US Defense contractor), but our site has ditched them and moved to Intel.

    3. Re:In short, yes. by Baki · · Score: 1

      Many large banks are moving from sparc to x64 right now. I know of one major bank that has waited since 5 years for the next generation of sparc, but decided to go to x64 commodity hardware 2 years ago. 50% of servers worldwide have already been migrated.

  2. Re:Who cares? by Sique · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's something you can do today with FPGAs anyway. No need to wait a few years.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  3. Probably not. by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oracle is going to need to come up with a new game to make waves with the new processor. Simply improving a processor isn't going to change the fact that what people want are low cost processors without vendor lock in.

    Sun made a name for itself with interesting hardware, but that was before processing power was a commodity. There are definitely organizations that still run SPARC, and some others who need top of the line performance that will at least give it a shot, but everyone who has a brain and a little industry experience knows that you can't just "try out" the new SPARC with Oracle in charge. If you walk any distance down that road, you start paying premium prices for every little feature you want going forward.

    I used to work in exclusively Sun shops, and I've dealt with Oracle for years. There's little that the hardware and their database can do that can't be replicated by x64 and something like Postgres with some thought behind your architecture. For certain, the features they do have are not cost effective against the hundreds of thousands of dollars you pay for Oracle DB licensing, and the premium you pay for SPARC hardware and support.

    1. Re:Probably not. by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC because of performance concerns. The shops that buy SPARC equipment do not have price of servers as a primary concern. Everyone who's left has left because of Oracle.

      It is virtually unthinkable that Oracle could or would make the decisions that would reverse this trend.

      Sun is on its way out, and SPARC with it. I wonder what Fujitsu will do next?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Probably not. by Above · · Score: 2

      I would mod up if I had mod points. This, 1000 times this! Oracle is driving people away due to their business practices, not hardware performance or cost.

    3. Re:Probably not. by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oracle is going to need to come up with a new game to make waves with the new processor. Simply improving a processor isn't going to change the fact that what people want are low cost processors without vendor lock in.

      "People" are not Oracle's target market. Their target are are huge 24x7x365 enterprise clusters that are not about to change databases unless they absolutely have to so for most of them the question isn't whether they'll run Oracle it's what they'll run Oracle on. Whether it's SPARC, POWER or Intel's E7 Xeons with RAS features they'll be paying blood for the hardware, ARM and Postgres isn't even on the radar. If you run a tiny, non-performance or non-uptime critical Oracle DB it's because you're an Oracle shop and have standardized on it, not because you need it or you have a PHB who insists on Oracle because it's enterprisy. I'm feeling pretty they'll sell if Oracle just spins it right that they take full top-to-bottom responsibility (just not liability) for the stack working at optimal performance.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have. Try running Oracle SOA Suite on anything less than a T4, which is itself fairly new. It takes 20 minutes to start the damn thing up on a T3. An old Xeon will do it in 5 minutes. Sparc performance has been really bad for a long time. The T4 was playing catch up.

    5. Re:Probably not. by NFN_NLN · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oracle is going to need to come up with a new game to make waves with the new processor. Simply improving a processor isn't going to change the fact that what people want are low cost processors without vendor lock in.

      They are relying on Oracle Db dominance to bring in the T5. They are working on adding "software on silicon" to future processors so certain DB calls happen at HW speeds.

      As long as Oracle DB has market dominance, then anyone who needs to squeeze absolute performance from their DB; then they logical choice will be SPARC.
      With that user base they can move in to other segments.

      I have nothing against "software on silicon". However, it does smell of anti-competition... I doubt Oracle works with other CHIP designers on this HW API... but I could be wrong.

    6. Re:Probably not. by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC

      Ok , here's one. Albeit a few years ago.. We were having a lot of sad times with the Sun V880. We wanted faster Disk I/O along with a more usable OS. Solaris 9 (& 10), at the time, would boot and run Oracle but it was impossible to get patches for it. We used to download them from Sun's website but then all of a sudden you needed a Vendor ID. After submitting the Vendor ID, downloads still didn't work. iSCSI in particular was important to us but it just didn't work well. Buggy and horribly slow. We finally ended up ditching the V880 and going with two multi-core x86_64 Linux boxes running Centos and SSD raid. The DBA said some of his nightly processes finished in 1/6 of the time it took on the v880. All for a fraction of the cost of the Sun hardware. Yes, the sun stuff is sexy and built like a tank. Yes, it will run for decades without any trouble. If I never see a Sun product again it will be too soon.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    7. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC because of performance concerns. The shops that buy SPARC equipment do not have price of servers as a primary concern. Everyone who's left has left because of Oracle.

      People left SPARC years ago because of price/performance issues. The shops that still buy SPARC are stuck buying SPARC because they don't have the engineering wherewithal to get off. They are stuck. Larry knows this and is really good at identifying people that he has by the balls and then squeezing -- just enough to be painful, but not enough so that they leave. Sometimes his people miscalculate and they lose a client. That just makes him squeeze everyone else a little harder.

      I was recently courted by a financial firm until I found out it was for SPARC/Solaris development. Money be damned, I'm not going there again. And it said a ton about the IT team that they were still using Sun/Oracle hardware. "The smell of death surrounds you..."

    8. Re:Probably not. by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And I was very clear that there will be organizations that will continue to run both Oracle and Solaris and SPARC. I have direct experience working at those financial and governmental organization and I do fully understand that they have both a great deal of inertia, as well as a decision making process that is filled with bureaucrats and PHBs.

      Still, don't be so sure that the field won't change even there. I don't think I have ever worked in a shop that wasn't 24/7/365 and I have worked in the huge enterprises you are talking about. Sure, they may be running SPARC and Oracle for the next 20-30 years, if they can, just like they ran mainframes almost that long for certain tasks. New growth and new money, however, does not have to take that path, even in big shops.

      And this will sell, but will it "save" the line? I don't think so. If they are talking about continued existence of the line as legacy into the distant future, the lock-in has already achieved that more than the T5 or any upgraded processor ever will. Now, if you are talking about "saving" the line in the sense of it returning to a vibrant growth platform beyond its big business/government niche, I'd say that it is too little, too late, on it's own.

    9. Re:Probably not. by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      IBM was allegedly working on the equivalent of "software on silicon" as far back as the late 1970s ("Future Systems"). Didn't happen, although some of the extremely CISC-y instructions in the current zSeries set aren't too far removed.

      One problem with doing database in hardware is that it's a lot faster and easier to modify software than it is to modify hardware. Especially once it's commodity stuff out in the field.

      How much truly high-performance stuff is done on Oracle DB is unclear to me. A lot of the biggest of the big-data projects are running on noSQL or MySQL server farms. The merely "big" databases that run on IBM mainframes may run Oracle, but they may run DB2.

    10. Re:Probably not. by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sun was beyond amazing for support. We had a server that wouldn't boot. It threw a kernel panic, went down and it wouldn't come back up without a kernel panic. We had not touched the thing in months. Called support, they asked a few questions about the panic details. Within 15 minutes the support guy KNEW it was cache module and we had one shipped to us overnight so we had our hands on it the next morning. We replaced the module and everything worked.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    11. Re:Probably not. by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      We ditched our Sun servers back at the time of T3. Their single-thread performance was abysmal and collective multi-thread performance was not that good as well. It turned out that it was cheaper to buy a couple of x86-based servers than to suffer the SPARC misery.

    12. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wonder why SUN got out of business..

    13. Re:Probably not. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I have nothing against "software on silicon". However, it does smell of anti-competition... I doubt Oracle works with other CHIP designers on this HW API... but I could be wrong.

      I would ask the question the other way, would other chip designers be interested in "do Oracle stuff to database" instructions on their general purpose CPUs? I doubt that, since dead silicon is would greatly cut into the margins of all their other sales.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    14. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      everyone who has a brain and a little industry experience knows that you can't just "try out" the new SPARC with Oracle in charge. If you walk any distance down that road, you start paying premium prices for every little feature you want going forward.

      This strategy his been highly successful at Apple.

    15. Re:Probably not. by Princeofcups · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oracle is going to need to come up with a new game to make waves with the new processor. Simply improving a processor isn't going to change the fact that what people want are low cost processors without vendor lock in.

      What individual users want is low cost without vendor lock in. What ENTERPRISE wants, and the market for Oracle, is a rock solid platform with excellent support and maintenance. Sun provided that at a reasonable cost. Oracle is simply charging too much for the same product. For example, they've completely overhauled their support costs to ream their existing Sun customers, and they (read we) are looking for other solutions. The company I work for has probably bought its last Sun/Oracle server.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    16. Re:Probably not. by blind+biker · · Score: 0

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC

      Ok , here's one. Albeit a few years ago.. We were having a lot of sad times with the Sun V880. We wanted faster Disk I/O along with a more usable OS. Solaris 9 (& 10), at the time, would boot and run Oracle but it was impossible to get patches for it. We used to download them from Sun's website but then all of a sudden you needed a Vendor ID. After submitting the Vendor ID, downloads still didn't work. iSCSI in particular was important to us but it just didn't work well. Buggy and horribly slow. We finally ended up ditching the V880 and going with two multi-core x86_64 Linux boxes running Centos and SSD raid. The DBA said some of his nightly processes finished in 1/6 of the time it took on the v880. All for a fraction of the cost of the Sun hardware. Yes, the sun stuff is sexy and built like a tank. Yes, it will run for decades without any trouble. If I never see a Sun product again it will be too soon.

      You could at least quote the OP's statement correctly:

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC because of performance concerns.

      I noticed your sig, which says:

      Ignorance is a choice

      You sir, win at hypocrisy.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    17. Re:Probably not. by Score+Whore · · Score: 2, Informative

      Assuming a few years ago means 2010 or there about (also "SSD raid" suggests that kind of time frame), so you are comparing a server last sold in 2005 against a five year newer system. Moore's law alone suggests a 6x performance increase. Add in lower latency storage and I'm surprised the processes were only took 1/6th the time.

      I admin for an enterprise with a large Sun/Oracle hardware base, and I have serious complaints with Oracle's support procedures, but beyond a few notable missteps, their hardware is quite good. And Solaris is very nice if you know how to use it.

    18. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC

      Ok , here's one. Albeit a few years ago.. We were having a lot of sad times with the Sun V880. We wanted faster Disk I/O along with a more usable OS. Solaris 9 (& 10), at the time, would boot and run Oracle but it was impossible to get patches for it. We used to download them from Sun's website but then all of a sudden you needed a Vendor ID. After submitting the Vendor ID, downloads still didn't work. iSCSI in particular was important to us but it just didn't work well. Buggy and horribly slow. We finally ended up ditching the V880 and going with two multi-core x86_64 Linux boxes running Centos and SSD raid. The DBA said some of his nightly processes finished in 1/6 of the time it took on the v880. All for a fraction of the cost of the Sun hardware. Yes, the sun stuff is sexy and built like a tank. Yes, it will run for decades without any trouble. If I never see a Sun product again it will be too soon.

      Wait, you wanted faster disk speed so you went with iSCSI?!?! And clearly Solaris didn't support RAIDed SSDs. Sounds like the issue might have been with the sysadmins.

      --AC

    19. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oracle did a presentation at my company. The sales guys accidentally left in a slide that said "Customer Penetration" when they were hawking their 'first one's free' database appliance and free Linux.

      Yup, I don't trust them.

    20. Re:Probably not. by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 2

      We're leaving Sparc machines because of cost. We have to run Oracle because we're using Oracle db/middleware on our ERP, but we've found that Dell's run circles around anything Oracle has sold us in the past for far less money.

    21. Re:Probably not. by danpbrowning · · Score: 1

      You could at least quote the OP's statement correctly:

      I agree, but it looks like an honest oversight to me. He did leave SPARC over performance concerns.

      --
      Daniel
    22. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Oracle is going to need to come up with a new game plan? This is Oracles all a part of the new game plan! Make the fastest processors in the world to run the best software in the enterprise the fastest possible. After all, it’s the Enterprise that Oracle is focused on, and today, more than ever, Oracle has the focus on developing and innovating across the entire stack from applications, to middleware, database, OS, virtualization, hardware, CPU to storage. And the only way you can engineer out the complexity, engineer out the issues of compatibility, reduce/eliminate installation and configuration headaches, system optimization challenges, patching & maintenance nightmares, etc is to control all the elements of the stack. Why do you think so many datacenters are in such a mess today? Theres too much complexity, too many vendors, too many variables, and that’s what Oracle is focused on.

      SPARC no longer is at a price premium over x86 unless you include the white boxes and looking at 2-socket boxes. Anything 4-socket and above, SPARC T4 and now SPARC T5 will show competitive price/performance. Just look at the latest TCO disclosures on TPC-C, TPC-H or even performance on SPECjEnterprise2010 or SPECjbb2013 benchmarks. Xeon is falling behind, especially on 4-socket and above. Intel is clearly focused on beating ARM, but at the same time, I believe they're defocusing on the enterprise. The current fastest Xeon is still Westmere-EX for 4-socket and 8-socket system, over 2 years old now! What happened to Sandy Bridge EX or even Ivybridge 4-socket or 8-socket? Still MIA? But yes, Haswell is already coming (to go after ARM). You wont see Haswell going after the enterprise any time soon. So if you are seriously looking at Enterprise quality HW with extreme performance, it comes down to either SPARC or Power. And with the 17+ benchmarks Oracle just announced, IBM is looking to be a distant 2nd place..

    23. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The UltraSPARC T4 platforms were selling as fast as they could be produced.
      The T5 architecture outperforms the Fujitsu based M series servers in a smaller footprint. This means that even more sales will swing to the T series platforms.

    24. Re:Probably not. by tibit · · Score: 2

      The question is: will doing the DB in hardware even help with anything? I presume it's not that hard to saturate the memory bus on any modern server while doing a database query. If database bottlenecks were actually the CPU power, not memory bandwidth, then it'd make sense.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    25. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      A v880 hasn't been current for over 7 years - wtf are you prattling on about comparing ssd raid storage to a box that ran on 10k spindles only?

      Load up a pair of T5s with Solaris 11.1, and it will run circles around your gimpy lil Linux setup.

      This is doubly true now that OS level optimizations are going in to improve Oracle DB performance...

      If you never see a Sun product again, that's because there are no Sun products anymore, they are Oracle products.

    26. Re:Probably not. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      wonder why SUN got out of business..

      Sun failed because there are two types of people:

      1. People who say that good support is really important
      2. People that think good support is important enough to pay extra for it

      There are plenty of plenty of people in category 1, but few in category 2. Modern hardware is reliable enough and cheap enough that it usually more cost effective to forgo premium support.

    27. Re:Probably not. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      You forget that a T5 has not only one processor but dozens.

      You forget that the Oracle DB and Solaris and the SPARC Processor are synergizing each other.

      Oracle, the DB, outperforms on Sparc architectures everything else, haedware wise and money wise. The reason is the superb multithreading/processing possible on SPARC hardware.

      You want to do that with x86 and PostgreSQL?

      Sorry, you must be kidding.

      Ah, you also forgot: SPARC is an open architecture. There os no vendor lock in. And AFAIK Open Solaris is not dead either.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    28. Re:Probably not. by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      We left because of Oracle buying Sun, but when we moved to Ubuntu VMs we discovered they were ridiculously faster (turns out when you're running a pile of Java, it's actually all about the bogoMIPS), and if we'd realised just how much faster we'd have moved earlier.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    29. Re:Probably not. by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      I think you are right. If it absolutely must work at all costs then Sun made sense. Otherwise Cent OS on X86 or something similar is good enough.

    30. Re:Probably not. by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I recall when EBay first moved to Sun/Oracle several years ago, shortly thereafter they were down for a day or two. As I recall the loss of income was several $million. That's the kind of number that makes the CIO not sleep at night, and lose hair.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    31. Re:Probably not. by djh101010 · · Score: 0

      So, Sun support sucked because your employer didn't pay for a support contract, and you wanted the benefits of one (the downloading of patches) without paying for it? I'm guessing it's not even worth discussing threading models at this point.

    32. Re:Probably not. by mabhatter654 · · Score: 4, Informative

      We STILL get that kind of service with our IBM System I (AS400) support.

      If you are willing to pay, they have 4-hour support where they will get it there FASTER than overnight. And the tecs are super knowledgable.

      Sadly, their blade and x86 support is not REMOTLY as sharp. And with converged hardware it became painful... Fast.

    33. Re:Probably not. by SethJohnson · · Score: 1

      The question is: will doing the DB in hardware even help with anything?

      Oracle is quick to mention the benefit of hardware encryption they've implemented that's transparent to the applications accessing the data. This is pretty huge because just about every SaaS I've ever worked on has been cobbled together without encryption in the original design and then later on when it was determined to be a valuable feature, the challenge of implementing it in the existing code base was gargantuan. Transparent encryption / decryption is a wonderful solution, and having it accelerated by the hardware would be tits.

      http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/options/advanced-security/index-099011.html

      seth

    34. Re:Probably not. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what SPARC hardware does today comparatively. But Oracle database vs. Postgres. Yes there are huge differences.

      Materialized views are a must for views + performance.
      Flashback queries and flashback archives are a must for any kind of rollback.
      The ability to divide queries across CPUs is vital for complex data warehouse
      etc...

      They aren't really in the same league.

    35. Re:Probably not. by jbolden · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd argue that the entire move to Linux is mainly people leaving SPARC because of performance concerns. In the mid 1990s through early 2000s Linux/x86 was a low end system and Solaris/SPARC was the big brother. The lack of performance is what made Linux thrive. If Sun workstations were still say 20-100x faster than x86 workstations and in the $10k range I'd be they would still be selling. If a $40-200k Sun server would crush a rack of x86 boxes they would still be selling.

    36. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't anymore about raw performance for low and midrange workloads, any simple core i5 (or xeon) with ssd and 10Gb ethernet is enought for lots of workloads. Commodity hardware and easy-managed software resiliency (like sql server availability groups) is the future.

    37. Re:Probably not. by ilikejam · · Score: 2

      Thanks Larry. How's the yacht?

      --
      C-x C-s C-x k
    38. Re:Probably not. by corran__horn · · Score: 1

      It is also significantly more expensive, and (like mainframes) suffers from gray-hair syndrome: there are very few opportunities for someone fresh out of college to have any experience with the platform and a lot of the people who currently support the systems are starting to look at retirement. I wish I had firm numbers, as this anacdotal as it is just personal experience and reports from the mainframe guys I work with, but everywhere I have worked is actively getting rid of Solaris in part because it isn't part of their standard build due to cost.

      It isn't the end of the platform, but it will get increasingly expensive and esoteric.

      --

      If people can connect to one another even the smallest of voices will grow loud.
      --Serial Experiments Lain
    39. Re:Probably not. by emt377 · · Score: 1

      Simply improving a processor isn't going to change the fact that what people want are low cost processors without vendor lock in.

      This is what they say. Then they put Apple on desks and in bags, and buy iPhones, not because it's lower cost but because it's viewed like a perk (like free lunches, snacks, or an on-site gym, etc) - and it's relatively cheap compared to payroll costs in general. What they say is largely irrelevant because they don't know what they want, and in the absence of wanting something else a purchaser will say they need lower cost. When a purchaser says they're cost sensitive it really says they don't know what they need and aren't in the business of brainstorming. This doesn't mean there's no opportunity for innovation outside of cost-performance. Sun benefited from its stackable pizza boxes; people greatly preferred having a stack of those in a corner to the other common alternatives at the time, even though they cost more. They also ran SunOS. Sun wasn't popular with purchasing departments either, but they had no choice because if they bought Pentium PCs or IBM AIX based machines their technical staff would go work someplace else. Sparc was only briefly, if every, best bang for buck in terms of performance. The problem with Sun was their product innovation completely stopped and all they did was tweak the underlying technology. Oracle is just as bad if not worse. This means they have their market locked in, but it's an ever shrinking market that can't be grown.

      Imagine instead that you have a rack where you can add and remove boards as you see fit. Need 4 more CPUs each with 16-64 execution units, insert a board. Need another 64GB memory? Insert a board. Need a pile of ethernet ports perhaps with a builtin soft configurable switch, add a board. Or FC-AL, or anything else. And, more interestingly, want to remove a board? Push the stop button on it and the kernel begins releasing all resources on it used - unconfigure interfaces, power down CPUs, or deallocate (possibly page out) memory. When it's safe to remove a light comes on and you pull it out. A power supply might take up four slots; need redundancy? Put in 2 and set the mode to active slave. Or stick in a video board and run it like a big fat desktop. Such a system might cost more than the equivalent x86 servers, perform less, give less bang for buck, but it would have reasonable incremental expansion costs and flexibility. It would find an immediate customer base in academia and technical markets - the pizza box of the 2010s.

      In the case of the Sparc T5 they're once again just going after cost. Nothing wrong with that, but more telling is there's no product innovation going on.

    40. Re:Probably not. by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      We left Sparc/Solaris eons ago because of performance issues. It may be true that nobody leaves Sun/Oracle in 201x for performance reasons, but only because those who cared about performance left a long time ago (us in 2002-2004 timeframe)

      In fact, they've probably left in stages. At one point, Sparc was one of the "easy" paths to 64 bit. 64 bit Intel/AMD chips ate up that market a long time ago. Virtualization helped with some of the hardware partition issues. And you can get super hardened multiple power supply x86-64 machines easily now.

      Being fast won't help the T5, but being slow will certainly kill it.

    41. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know all about the eBay fiasco. Sun was not entirely to blame. The eBay folks went against Sun's recommendations when laying out the disk drives among other bad decisions.

    42. Re:Probably not. by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Where did he say anything about paying? It's just that w/ Sun, he didn't need a vendor ID to download stuff - Sun apparently made it free for anyone who went through the expense of buying a Sun or a V880. Obviously, nobody who didn't buy a Sun would bother downloading that stuff, but that, for whatever reason, didn't make sense to Oracle, since they started requiring Vendor ID numbers. And as the GP pointed out, they ultimately did get and provide the Vendor ID, that didn't fix the problem either, so to accuse his employer of being a cheapskate is hitting below the belt.

      Sun had a policy of making the software free for those who bought their hardware (okay, the price was probably built in). Oracle discontinued that policy, and as a result, got expensive enough that it was cheaper to make an expensive switch to Linux or other such solutions.

    43. Re:Probably not. by unixisc · · Score: 1

      It is not trivial in terms of cost for a company to suddenly switch all their servers to a totally new platform. While your decision was your prerogative, you did have choices that would have enabled you to use those SPARCs w/o being stuck to Oracle (except for hardware). You could have migrated existing equipment from Solaris to FreeBSD, thereby eliminating the Oracle software lock-in, while getting new Xeon boxes, putting FBSD on them and running them along w/ it.

      Of course, if the client was running Oracle software as well - DBs and the like, which may not be available for FBSD, then that's a different problem. But a one time migration to something like FBSD/ProgreSQL would have taken the company out of the grip of Oracle, and left it a path to slowly phase out SPARC as they started dying.

    44. Re:Probably not. by unixisc · · Score: 1

      As usual, Intel's manufacturing processes won the day in the end. After all, once Intel switched to the multi-core CPU architecture, there was little that they couldn't do in terms of performance by simply tossing more cores at the problem. Who exactly manufactures SPARCs for Oracle today? The ones that did - like Ross & Cypress - Ross died a while ago, and I doubt that Cypress is still in the SPARC manufacturing business, or is it?

      Otherwise, if Sun/Oracle had a competitive manufacturing process, or if their CPUs were being manufactured by Intel fabs (the way the PA-RISC was), they too could have tossed in more cores and stayed in the game ahead of the Xeons and the i7s.

    45. Re:Probably not. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Sun lost the battle well before Oracle IMHO. 64 bit sparcs came out in 1994. You could do things on a Sun you simply couldn't do on a PC. Sparc 3 is a cool chip Intel doesn't sell a 16 core 128 thread CPU even today. I'd assume they won't till about 2020 at the earliest so a 10 year lag. The problem is the chip is so expensive that you are better off just buying a more expensive motherboard and multiple CPUs.

      I guess the big question is whether ARM is going to do to x86 what x86 did to MIPS, SPARC, Power (mostly)...

    46. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I completely agree. I'm phasing out Sparc in my organization: not because it's bad technology, it's not. But because dealing with Oracle is a royal pain in the ass. It's just not worth the aggravation.

    47. Re:Probably not. by mculver01 · · Score: 1

      Just out of interest (as a converged shop considering Oracle x86 racks) - what was the problem with CNAs?

    48. Re:Probably not. by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Oracle is going to need to come up with a new game to make waves with the new processor. Simply improving a processor isn't going to change the fact that what people want are low cost processors without vendor lock in.

      Larry has stated explicitly that he does not want to be in the "low end" and general-purpose server markets. This is one reason why we reluctantly gave up on Sun/Oracle hardware. Another is that dealing with Sun was always painful and Oracle made that several times worse. Last Sun/Oracle hardware we bought was an x4270m2. It took a couple of months to find a VAR who could even quote the thing, and even then Oracle demanded a description of why we wanted to buy the thing and what we wanted to use it for before they would give the VAR permission to quote. Clearly they do not want our business.

      Sun made a name for itself with interesting hardware, but that was before processing power was a commodity.

      Well-made, easily-racked, easily-managed servers still aren't a commodity, and Solaris still blows Linux away in a number of areas.

      There's little that the hardware and their database can do that can't be replicated by x64 and something like Postgres with some thought behind your architecture.

      Um, you do realize I hope that Sun/Oracle have sold x64 systems for years. We've been running Postgres on them for ~8 years.

      For certain, the features they do have are not cost effective against the hundreds of thousands of dollars you pay for Oracle DB licensing, and the premium you pay for SPARC hardware and support.

      Again, Sun/Oracle != SPARC, and the hardware is not dedicated to Oracle's DB.

    49. Re:Probably not. by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      I have not heard one single source say they were leaving SPARC because of performance concerns.

      We did, partly, and that was long before the Oracle buyout. Sun stopped selling a basic SPARC system for general-purpose applications. They either didn't want to bother creating new chips with per-core performance, or more likely couldn't, so they went with the niche CMT approach instead, which was useless to us, and made the entry point ludicrously expensive. Lacking any viable SPARC systems, we went to the x4100/x4200 etc modules which worked well.

      The shops that buy SPARC equipment do not have price of servers as a primary concern. Everyone who's left has left because of Oracle.

      Clearly you do not in fact know the motivations of "everyone".

    50. Re:Probably not. by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Ok , here's one. Albeit a few years ago.. We were having a lot of sad times with the Sun V880. We wanted faster Disk I/O along with a more usable OS. Solaris 9 (& 10), at the time, would boot and run Oracle but it was impossible to get patches for it. We used to download them from Sun's website but then all of a sudden you needed a Vendor ID.

      What's a "Vendor ID"? Patch bundles used to be publicly available but that tightened up IIRC before Oracle took over. All one needed for access was a support contract. I used wget to grab Solaris patches years ago and I still do today. Even without a contract the patch bundles were readily available elsewhere with a modest amount of effort.

    51. Re:Probably not. by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      I think you are right. If it absolutely must work at all costs then Sun made sense. Otherwise Cent OS on X86 or something similar is good enough.

      ... so long as your needs don't include storage. Linux storage is friggin *pathetic. Separate layers for RAID, volumes, and filesystem, with none of them particularly easy to manage. In 2013 there still isn't a single compressing filesystem. Sun's ZFS and the stability of Solaris were invaluable, but they shot themselves in the foot business-wise, then Oracle came in and chopped off the whole metaphorical leg.

    52. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oracle really needs to partner with Intel Corporation and get out of microprocessor manufacturing and design. Their processors are not wonderful and they are passing the cost of development on to a small customer base. Get the costs down and give MS a run for their money.

    53. Re:Probably not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the pesentation was focused on more then just the hardware numbers (which I agree, while impressive, do not alone speak to outright value); The space that is being focused is customers that are looking forward to the sweet spot of servers spefically optimized for their Application stack... if you are a Java, SAP, Oracle app house, then the cross-polinization of processor improvement + optimization for your enteriprise is where potential value add is.

      Yes, (intelligent) architecture design factors into this as well, but the physics of a united hw/sw solution is the focus play here... imho :)

  4. it's a marketing problem by marcello_dl · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The performance is just a factor, they can sell if Oracle prices it right, accounting for performance-per-watt of their stack vs. the competing ones.

    Sparc being an exotic arch cuts both way, you sure have more trouble with ports, OTOH hackers have to adapt their tools to penetrate those servers, in many cases it's overall a plus.

      The main obstacle IMHO is that those servers come from "we are indeed evil" Oracle ;)

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    1. Re:it's a marketing problem by c0lo · · Score: 1, Funny

      they can sell if Oracle prices it right,

      The right price for Oracle translates in whatever it takes for Larry to buy another island

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "We are indeed evil" is the best phrase I've ever heard to describe Oracle. Their mafia-style "well, how much you got?" pricing schemes are insane. Much like the mafia they pretty much force you to give up financial statements and sensitive proprietary business info, then they charge you a percentage of your gross based on how much they think you can afford and how much they think you depend on their software. (Granted they don't admit to this, but this is the net effect of their practices)

      I shudder to think what strings they put on hardware they sell to you.

    3. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At what point did Oracle compete on price? Maybe I just am not enough into the server market, but I thought they got business mostly in three ways: suckers, people who needed Oracle because that was a requirement not based on technical merit but other reasons, and terrific corporate-level schmoozing.

    4. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are correct... I also think Oracle is plainly unwilling to make the sort of marketing decisions which would make these new processors attractive to buyers who are not already entangled in the Sparc ecosystem.

    5. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      The main obstacle IMHO is that those servers come from "we are indeed evil" Oracle ;)

      Google: Don't be (seen as) evil.
      Oracle: Fuck PR, we're evil.

      I honestly don't know which motto is better.

    6. Re:it's a marketing problem by Imagix · · Score: 1

      Just visited the website. Their "Small" T5-2 server lists at over $50k USD.

    7. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just visited the website. Their "Small" T5-2 server lists at over $50k USD.

      Almost nobody pays list for these though. Resellers will heavily discount that price.

    8. Re:it's a marketing problem by Rob_Bryerton · · Score: 2

      ...and a decent Oracle install is going to cost 10x that annually. If you run Oracle DB and/or ($deity help you) eBusiness Suite, then your hardware cost is a rounding error in your overall Oracle budget...

    9. Re:it's a marketing problem by Score+Whore · · Score: 3, Informative

      Their "small" T5-2 has 32 cores running at 3.6 GHz with 256 threads and 256 GB of RAM. A similar and cheaper x86 system doesn't even exist.

    10. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you spell "Oracle" in reverse you get "elcaro"."El caro" means "The Expensive" in spanish :)

    11. Re:it's a marketing problem by tibit · · Score: 1

      When I make server purchase decisions, I don't care to talk to anyone at the vendor. I want to read their collateral and make the business decision. If their documentation or collateral is lacking, I won't be prying it from their dead hands -- it's their fucking loss, not mine. Resellers are, I think, a waste of resources. If the list price is there to discourage purchase, then what the heck, I'll just follow their guideline and not buy. Simple as that. I guess it's time to short sell some Oracle stock.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    12. Re:it's a marketing problem by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      At least Oracle is being honest with everyone about being asshats.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    13. Re:it's a marketing problem by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I thought the deal was that the support contract was based on a percentage of the list price of the machine, so they jack the list price up really high and offer deep discounts because what they really want is the juicy support contract anyway.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    14. Re:it's a marketing problem by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      They will certainly be trying to move from selling to long term leases in the future.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    15. Re:it's a marketing problem by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      So, just as an example, the IBM x3750 M4 doesn't exist? It has 32 cores and can go up to 1.5TB of RAM. It is less than $50K.

    16. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed the "with 256 threads" part. Each core has up to 8 way SMT. Xeons have 2 way SMT.

    17. Re:it's a marketing problem by tibit · · Score: 2

      It's their problem. I tell all my vendors: if the prices available online are not competitive, I'm not looking any further. Makes it easy for me and them. For me, because I don't have to pester some clueless sales rep about pricing -- it's a waste of my time. For them, because if they want to win my business, they don't have to do anything extraordinary: just provide competitive prices, and I'll make sure the best deal wins. Easy as that.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    18. Re:it's a marketing problem by Score+Whore · · Score: 2

      According to IBM's website, $45k will get you:

      4x E5-4650 @ 2.7GHz (32 total cores)
      192GB RAM
      0 HDD
      2 1 Gbps NICs

      At the $53k price point the SPARC box also includes a pair of boot drives and 4 integrated 10 Gbps NICs and an extra 64 GB of RAM. More PCIe 3.0 slots. Not to mention the 16x SMT that was already pointed out in another reply. I will note that I did erroneously double the number of cores in the SPARC system. There are only 16 cores.

      It doesn't seem to be that the pricing is all that bad comparatively.

    19. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, go over to Silicon Mechanics, and $16k will get you 32 cores and 512GB RAM and 2 10Gbps NICs and SSDs.

      If there is something you want that it lacks, you have a lot of money left to fill that in. Or, just get three of them, and pocket what you still save over the SPARC.

      It does seem that the pricing is all that bad comparatively.

    20. Re:it's a marketing problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately that is not the way the world works (I wish it was)
      Large amounts of money == we want face to face contact so that we can smooze and upsell. Sales people want to get in your face (commission). The company that employs them wants that too.
      They are not interested in someone who just buys the hardware they need (well they are but you as the buyer pay for that privilege). Support, software etc have larger profit margins.

      As you may have noticed most players in the industry do the same thing. Unless you buy white box machnes and have the potentially unknown cost of getting it working, the unknown cost of ensuring it can handle the tasks you have, the unknown support costs. That is from a mangement point of view. Big Blue, Sun/Oracle, SGI (when they where around), Cray, Dell etc. all provide that apparent confidence that the money is being spent "responsibly"

    21. Re:it's a marketing problem by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      So, just as an example, the IBM x3750 M4 doesn't exist? It has 32 cores and can go up to 1.5TB of RAM. It is less than $50K.

      It also needs a legacy keyboard and video monitor to install, and lacks any working serial console. It's a desktop that comes with (bizarre) rack rails.

    22. Re:it's a marketing problem by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      What nonsense. Every hear of IBM's Remote Supervisor Adapter?
          http://www-947.ibm.com/support/entry/portal/docdisplay?lndocid=MIGR-50116

      It gives you a virtual serial console and much more. Simple serial port access is handy but the x86 vendors aren't so stupid that they make you attach physical keyboards or even KVM concentrators. I've worked in environments where dozens of xSeries servers are provisioned daily without a single keyboard or monitor anywhere in the datacenter.

    23. Re:it's a marketing problem by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      What nonsense. Every hear of IBM's Remote Supervisor Adapter?

      No, because it appears to be rather old. I believe that it was superseded by IMM.

      Simple serial port access is handy but the x86 vendors aren't so stupid that they make you attach physical keyboards or even KVM concentrators.

      Yes, actually, many of them are.

      I've worked in environments where dozens of xSeries servers are provisioned daily without a single keyboard or monitor anywhere in the datacenter.

      How? Reliance on DHCP being available? Some complex IBM-specific management application? Since you only have that one DC, how well would your setup work with 30 remote unstaffed locations?

    24. Re:it's a marketing problem by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      RSA was just an example. Each vendor has their own version.

      DHCP with addresses pre-assigned based on MAC address are used on the management network. Each of the multiple DCs is staffed only with hardware monkeys. Because of security requirements no one with administrative access can even enter a DC. So once the hardware is racked and powered on it could be accessed and configured. We don't do it that way though. We have orchestration software that does all the configuration dynamically. It's completely pushbutton.

    25. Re:it's a marketing problem by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      RSA was just an example

      An out-of-date one, but yeah.

      Each vendor has their own version

      Of course -- IBM's IMM, Dell's DRAC, HP's iLO, Soracle's ILOM, generic stuff on certain Supermicro systems, etc.

      It's completely pushbutton

      ... except for somehow learning those MAC's. I'm guessing that your hardware has a primary NIC MAC printed on the outside and your hardware monkeys are up to reading and reporting such? I don't have either of those luxuries, or necessarily a reliable way to DHCP, so I rely on a working serial console out of the box to statically configure IP on the service processor and to read the primary NIC's MAC. On a good day when IOS-XR, JunOS, etc. co-operate I can then configure relayed DHCP using the MAC to effect a kickstart, but so far every new location or piece of equipment presents a new and different way that the process is broken. Right now trying to figure out how to get an ex3300 switch to stop eating DHCP broadcasts and pass them upstream. Without a functional serial console all I could tell is that the thing wasn't working, with almost no way to troubleshoot.

  5. New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have not seen Sparcs in years. They are so 2003. Kind of sad as we move to generic x86 but Sun really screwed up marketing these and Oracle is not helping by requiring an Oracle RDBMS license whether they are an oracle shop or not does not help. Oracle has also been happy to tell people with perfectly good Sparc Ultra I's to go fuck themselves we wont patch your systems anymore unless you pay us $$$ for your 12 year old systems you already paid for!

    You can tell I do not like Oracle so consider my opinion biased. True they can multithread really well but the performance is slow and the industry has moved to clustered low cost blades to spread things out instead in such programs. The issue with threading on a single big ass server is not as big as it once was but still used in limited circumstances.

    I thought the UltraSparc was legacy at this point so I am surprised.

    1. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by armanox · · Score: 1

      No, SPARCs have been coming out on a regular basis. My biggest issue was Oracle dropping support for so many recent processors with Solaris 11 (UltraSparc IV and older removed, no more IA-32 either). A Sun Enterprise M3000, which was being sold in late 2010, doesn't run Solaris 11.

      I do however still enjoy playing with new SPARC systems when my client buys one.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    2. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

      A Sun Enterprise M3000, which was being sold in late 2010, doesn't run Solaris 11.

      Um, yes it does.

    3. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by armanox · · Score: 1

      Interesting, I might have to contact Oracle support on that one (when I tried to install Solaris 11 on a client's server, I got a "your system isn't supported" error.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    4. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by djh101010 · · Score: 2

      Interesting, I might have to contact Oracle support on that one (when I tried to install Solaris 11 on a client's server, I got a "your system isn't supported" error.

      Support contracts have to be paid, or that's the answer you get.

    5. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Interesting, I might have to contact Oracle support on that one (when I tried to install Solaris 11 on a client's server, I got a "your system isn't supported" error.

      I ran into a similar problem years back, trying to put Oracle on a RHEL box....I found the file that the installer was looking for to get versioning info, and changed that to something it liked, and install went perfectly.

      Might be something that simple on your problem?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by armanox · · Score: 1

      Not what I meant - the contract is up to date. I booted to the Solaris 11 disk for sparc (Stop-A, boot cdrom), and the OS threw an unsupported proc error. Client decided it wasn't worth looking into - since everything else they have is on Solaris 10, and decided to stay on S10 rather then spend the time on contacting support, etc.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    7. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      No, SPARCs have been coming out on a regular basis. My biggest issue was Oracle dropping support for so many recent processors with Solaris 11 (UltraSparc IV and older removed, no more IA-32 either). A Sun Enterprise M3000, which was being sold in late 2010, doesn't run Solaris 11.

      I do however still enjoy playing with new SPARC systems when my client buys one.

      Can't those older systems - or even the new ones - have either one of the BSDs or Linux (Debian, if not OEL) running on them? Once one has that going, one is totally free from any blackmail by Oracle.

    8. Re:New Intel 8088s while we are at it? by armanox · · Score: 1

      Yes they can. My client that's using them, however, wants Solaris on them because their client is using Solaris (Oracle DB on Solaris 10). The Solaris 11 idea was to have them be used to using it (it was an extra system) to be familiar and ready to support it when their client moves to it.

      Also a note, in college we took some SPARC servers in college and installed Red Hat on them. Ran much better with RH then Solaris (I think they had S9 on them before).

      Now that I'm thinking about it, I think it was a different server that I tried that on, a Sun Fire (don't remember the model off the top of my head), not an Enterprise.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
  6. More on the benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is an analysis of the SPEC and other benchmarks - http://benchmarkingblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/oracles-sparc-t5-and-m5-benchmarks-lather-rinse-repeat

    1. Re:More on the benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's written by an IBM employee. The comparisons are decidedly unfair as well. Sure the Power7 is faster on a per-core basis, but it's also brutally expensive. Who cares if it takes 2x as many SPARC cores to achieve the same performance if the cost is lower?

    2. Re:More on the benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone who is paying for their Oracle DB licenses per core.

  7. Ship has sailed by satsuke · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Unfortunately, even in (sizable) niches like telecom, the days of exclusively SPARC shops are long over.

    There will be some markets that continue to use Oracle hardware for business continuity sake (Sun/Oracle has ridiculously long hardware lifecycles by industry standards). But as a mass (server) market influence, I think Oracle is done.

    1. Re:Ship has sailed by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Troll

      Unfortunately, even in (sizable) niches like telecom, the days of exclusively SPARC shops are long over.

      And there's the rub. What's Solaris got that nobody else has got? dtrace, zones, supported zfs. All of those things are coming to other operating systems. Even if they weren't, nobody is sitting at a Sun machine any more (statistically) so the homogeneity argument has also been lost. If Sun had ever taken Solaris-x86 seriously then that might not have wound up being the case, but they didn't, so it did.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Ship has sailed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even Windows has deduplication now [1].

      The main competitor to SPARC, IBM's POWER, has features that Oracle still is trying to play catchup with. RAM "compression", Turbo Core [2], virtual network switches, and virtualization handled by the hardware.

      Of course, ZFS is better than JFS2+LVM.

      As stated above, these are not really x86 replacements. A lot of times, these are for legacy databases which can't be split into smaller, partitionable units that can be placed on a number of blades, so it takes the heavyweight CPUs, I/O, and RAM to handle that stuff.

      The ironic thing is that I can pick up a POWER7 box (720) for cheaper than comparable x86 servers. As an added bonus (tinfoil hat mode here), If there is a new F0 0F -like bug that appears and allows ring 0 access to any executing process, my stuff won't be affected.

      [1]: It is offline deduping, requires NTFS, and can't be done on the system volume, but it is better than nothing. I wish they would have had it available for ReFS, but since ReFS is a "1.0" release, MS is probably more focused on getting the FS as stable as possible.

      [2]: Turbo Core is a feature for Sybase shops where in production, companies pay by the core. So, one turns this on which disables half the cores, but then the remaining cores can run at a higher clock rate and use the caches of the disabled ones. The cost of a Sybase license for a decent IBM pSeries can be more than the box itself.

    3. Re:Ship has sailed by satsuke · · Score: 2

      I think the larger issue with Solaris is that Oracle is intentionally murdering the "mindshare" of their users.

      At least part of vendor support is aftermarket support .. right now you can't get patch clusters, bug reports or documentation without a current support contract.

      Same with downloading of Solaris media .. if you want to run solaris sparc on your old blade 1500 to compile/debug stuff before moving it to a production machine .. you can't, not without a hardware contract .. at least not easily.

      Oracle/Sun has always been a premium value proposition .. nobody gets them because they were the cheapest, but shutting out your users entirely is more than counterproductive for the amount of revenue realized.

      As far as Solaris x86 .. IDK, back when it was a going concern, Sun was dabbling in linux, was competing with a half dozen unix on x86 vendors, and was pushing JAVA as a "run anywhere" / platform agnostic environment.

      in other words, very few people were hampered by the lack of a Solaris/86 version of their application.

    4. Re:Ship has sailed by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      I brought Linux into a shop because Solaris/x86 2.5.1 was a sad joke and they were formerly all Sun (plus two wintel PCs and one SGI)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Java by Captain_Chaos · · Score: 1

    Java is also from Oracle, and runs really well on SPARC, and Java is still hugely popular for writing enterprise applications, so there may be some potential there for them. Oracle Database obviously runs on SPARC as well, so it makes a pretty good platform for large enterprise applications.

    1. Re:Java by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. Java is definitely in demand and wide use.

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
  9. Re:SUN is dead. by armanox · · Score: 0

    You forgot to say it's in the cloud.

    --
    I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
  10. Missing the Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The posts so far are missing the point. The point is that Oracle certifies their products to run on their hardware. They have a captive audience.

  11. We're running away from SPARC as fast... by eyegor · · Score: 4, Informative

    We're running away from SPARC as fast as we can.

    Our unix shop used to be primarily SPARC-based, but with limited IT budgets, we're able to do far more with much less money using HP blades running CentOS.

    For most purposes, SPARC hardware is far too expensive and Oracle seems to be doing all they can to kill Solaris.

    We still run a handfull of SPARC systems that run specialized applications and a few Solaris zones, but nearly all other services have been pushed to natively hosted Linux systems, or virtual machines running Windows or Linux.

    --

    Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
    1. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Penny wise Pound Foolish as they say! If you look at your total IT budget, probably less than 10% of it goes to HW purchases so even if you get your servers for free, that’s not where your IT is spending its budgets. ~70% of most companies IT budget is spent in determining sizing of systems/virtualization, deployment planning, installation, configuration, system optimization, scaling, patching & maintenance, platform administration, etc and when you move from SPARC/Solaris to x86/Linux, you may be getting (slightly) cheaper servers and what appears to be free CentOS, but you certainly wont be reducing that 70% of the budget and in many cases, its being increased dramatically. Theres less than a 30% different in 4-socket Xeon vs SPARC T4/SPARC T5 HW costs and theres no way you can compare Solaris 11 to latest CentOS which is really not at the same level of capabilities, performance and certainly not administration.

    2. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha was this a Sun consultant posting from 2003?

      This is FUD - "well the difference is really insignificant and any difference really goes away when you look at the big picture". I've gotten the same lines from IBM about their equipment as well. Everyone claims this and then I say I can hire 2x the number of linux admins for the cost of the Solaris or AIX specialist...

    3. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by sethmeisterg · · Score: 1

      What do you mean Oracle seems to be doing all they can to kill Solaris? They're POURing money in Solaris development.

    4. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm with you on the hardware (def more reliable), and _maybe_ on the reliability of the Solaris kernel compared to Linux (just too much code churn w/ Linux... too many bugs.) But you lost me at administration.

      Solaris administration is utterly byzantine. And in any event, this is a Linux world. Even if system administration of a bare Solaris system were easier in the common case, software administration is much better on Linux, especially on apt-based distros.

      The biggest cost in any budget is labor--wages and salaries. Nobody can afford dedicated system administrators, and Solaris just has too man knobs and too many commands for a multi-tasked IT administrator to deal with. There was a time when a sysadmin literally did nothing but sit at his console, preening his system, fiddling with storage layouts, etc. I read about how cool ZFS is, but then I see the ridiculous number of obtuse commands you need to stitch all that shit together into a useable filesystem and I want to cry.

      Now stuff needs to be plug-and-pray. Solaris can do this, but not as easily as with Linux. There's too much baggage in Solaris.

    5. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      But Solaris can surely be compared to something like FreeBSD or OpenBSD, and if one uses those on either SPARC or Xeon based servers, one would have the same gains over Solaris/SPARC. Oh, and then there is OpenIndiana

    6. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

      I read about how cool ZFS is, but then I see the ridiculous number of obtuse commands you need to stitch all that shit together into a useable filesystem and I want to cry.

      One is a ridiculous number? Wow. You have very high expectations for ease of use.

      I'm guessing that in your IT world the only value proposition is how much horsepower can Intel deliver because everything else is going to be the generic setting. And to be honest it's a pretty worthwhile stance to take, but there is still value in having someone who understands the systems architecture and can tell you what knobs you need to turn to get the maximum value from your systems.

    7. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They killed openSolaris, they've made it painfully difficult to get patches without kissing acres of their asses. X86 Solaris is a joke of an OS that only runs reliably on their own hardware and doesn't have the same features as SPARC Solaris. Their SPARC hardware is great, but holy shit, who can afford it? I can get far more computing horsepower with HP blade systems.

    8. Re:We're running away from SPARC as fast... by eyegor · · Score: 1

      A majority of our IT HW budget is for High Performance Computing. We have about 10000 x86 cores running CentOS, about 100 M2070 GPUs and close to a petabyte of Isilon cluster storage in production right now and will be expanding to over 15000 cores in the next year.

      If we wanted to use SPARC systems, we couldn't afford anything nearly as powerful or as painless to manage. We don't need OS support other than patches and we're not tied to any particular vendor (other than Isilon). We may implement a Gluster storage cluster to gain independence from sole-source vendors entirely.

      We have a couple of Solaris bigots on the team, but they're mostly relegated to running our handful of Solaris boxes and non-cluster storage/backups.

      --

      Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
  12. Re:SUN is dead. by Sulphur · · Score: 0

    long live raspberry pi.
    a beowulf cluster.
    how many bitcoins per second?

    did i win the buzzword bingo today, mommy?

    Under the B : 52.

  13. Dont discount SPARC just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you think SPARC doesnt have a place in the server world, you aren't thinking deep enough. At my work we use Sun/Oracle hardware for our most important feature, file storage as their equipment is built like a tank. I've had more hardware failures in x86 hardware then I ever had with SPARC.

    Also much like mainframes, there are just some workloads that have not left the stability provided by such hardware. Also when it comes to security, I've learned from contractors that they are able to virtualize non-confidential and confidential servers on the same machine since they are able to at the hardware level keep them completely separate.

    1. Re:Dont discount SPARC just yet by eyegor · · Score: 1

      With the advent of cluster file systems, you don't have to pay for unreasonably expensive "bulletproof" hardware anymore. You can set up a Gluster storage cluster on commodity-grade X86 hardware get all the speed and redundancy you need (and are willing to pay for) at vastly cheaper prices. For those that don't want to roll their own, you can use commercial storage clusters by Isilon or storage virtualization devices such as the F5 Acopia with pretty much any storage underneath that you like.

      --

      Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
    2. Re:Dont discount SPARC just yet by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      clustered file systems are decades old, this Gluster of which you speak is not suitable for serious financial computing as no mature software exists for it. and the company that makes it only has 60 employees, they are going to support a fortune 500's accounting wares? nope...

    3. Re:Dont discount SPARC just yet by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      I've worked with sparc machines for decades, Sun/Oracle is losing market share in SPARC realm, less than 5% now. it's dying, write it off, very little place in server world any more. Virtualization and IBM's various PPC architectures and x86-64 is eating its lunch. When an x86 server has a failure no one gives a shit, we pop the blade out, fix it, and slap it back in to join the virtualization cluster.

    4. Re:Dont discount SPARC just yet by snadrus · · Score: 1

      Clustered filesystems were always very brittle in the past:
      - a few controllers ran everything (single point of failure)
      - limited access to them (special APIs you're expecting)
      - difficult administration adding nodes and properly replicating

      Advances have fixed these in Gluster, but it's new. There will be no "targeted software" since it's a filesystem. And as open-source, a 60-person company can easily produce something consumable by a huge company since they can share support effort.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    5. Re:Dont discount SPARC just yet by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      not at all, clustered filesystems talking normal system create/write/read have been around for decades. For example AFS, with as many "controllers" as you want, no special API, and easy admin and replication. sure, write performance slow, but it's a robust filesystem 30+ years old.

      Support to a large corporation for mission critical apps means much more than just having some forums to answer questions, there is no way a small company could hope to provide such.

    6. Re:Dont discount SPARC just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      clustered file systems are decades old, this Gluster of which you speak is not suitable for serious financial computing as no mature software exists for it. and the company that makes it only has 60 employees, they are going to support a fortune 500's accounting wares? nope...

      Yes, but there are only 500 companies in the Fortune 500, and they're already Oracle's customers. And nobody else wants to deal with that until they have to.

      Used to be, growing companies would say, "Well, we'll buy Oracle now so that we'll be ready for when we break into the big leagues!" Now, they say, "Commodity stuff can do everything we need for now, and the time we break into the big leagues, commodity hardware and software will have gotten to the point where it will be able to handle that, too."

  14. Slow but bulletproof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are bulletproof! Right now I am working on ultra 20 NIS+ servers that have been forgotten for 5 years. No hardware issues; no reboots. However I have a large oracle RAC cluster on 5220s that is slow as a dog. I'd really like to see what the T5s would do there, but for the money I'm sure we could do better with x64 hardware.

    1. Re:Slow but bulletproof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're still running NIS then I suggest you go with a LDAP or AD-integrated solution ASAP. Those NIS hashes can be brute forced reasonably quickly with modern computing power.

  15. Re:High priced, no support and little imagination by Score+Whore · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You seem somewhat ignorant of the platform you are criticizing. Yes, we know it's not x86 so the fact that it doesn't run Windows isn't a surprise. You can run Linux on SPARC, don't know why you would want to though, Solaris is very good. No, it's not Linux, but it's still very good.

    As far as virtualization goes, they've had hardware support for longer than the x86 line. The Niagara line of processes have had hypervisors as an integral part of the system since the first generation T-1 processors in the T-1000 servers.

    Don't even know wtf you are talking about as far as "architectural design does not simplify operations and make IT more agile." Solaris supports all modern technologies commonly found in a data center.

  16. Re:Probably by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have. It's because the bad decisions of Scott McNealy doomed Sun Microsystems to failure (IMHO). Now Sun has failed--that's why Oracle could purchase Sun at such a cheap price. It's also because of the stability of Linux (Oracle has their own distribution) and commodity (dependable and easily replaceable hardware) servers can offer the same performance at cheaper prices for upfront and support costs over Sparc and Solaris.

  17. OpenSource Fud.Oracle is not dead to the unbiased by phocutus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I learned on Linux and Solaris (x86/SPARC) when I was 15, and I'm now 32 still using both (do the math).

    A saying was told me to growing up, "Use the Proper Tool for the Job" which varies person to person, BUT for me SPARC and Solaris is the right tool. I see the OpenSource community as a great community. My WHOLE stack runs on OpenSource software. I beta-test/develop MUCH of my stuff on either Linux or OSX.

    But when it comes to the production OS, I'm not some blanketed Linux bigot. I'm an *NIX Admin and an Architect at heart.

    Professionally I'm a CTO (I do everything from programming php / data-center / network / DBA / UNIX / security / etc.) for an internet-based start-up that runs Solaris 10 and used SPARC CoolThread hardware in production. Baffled why? For a few reasons:

    When I did a cost analysis of my time & the company's money vs Intel offerings and SPARC I eventually came away with these main points.

    1.) SPARC hardware is still WAY superior with remote management than any x86 POS I've ever managed. The ALOM on a SPARC and a serial cable from my Mac works EVERY time. When I worked in past shops managing thousands of Linux Dells and HP's we had nothing but issues with ILOs from the hardware and OS side. Just pure donkey shit.

    When you're a start-up buying used hardware it is a great way to cut cost where investors/owners LOVE. Frankly SPARC hardware in my experience can keep on chugging where those HPs and Dells are falling apart right and left. I don't have time to be fucking with hardware when I'm running the show of a million hats.

    2.) LONG-term stability with Solaris 10 and maybe Solaris 11 (still evaluating) is a necessity to me. I work for a crazy ass mad-scientist type who does EVERYTHING custom. He's worse than the scientists that I worked with back at JPL-NASA. He has software that's been running for a decade, and the software/application I write with him now he wants to work years down the road as well. That means, I don't need to worry about a yum or apt get update that blows away some part that is critical to ONLY us and I gotta figure WTF happened. The OS is a critical back-bone element where I've seen "Linux dependency hell" fuck me so many times and cost me so many hours, that I PREFER building my own Solaris 10 packages and Solaris 11 (still in testing for me) packages (Yes, I'm a REAL UNIX admin no these lazy wanders) without worries that the OS will be compromised by something lame. In the long-run I have more freedom to enjoy time with my doggies.

    When you work for a company that builds custom crap that. Everything it talks to regarding the OS needs to work without question. I have always have had that with Solaris SPARC and with Support till 2018 or extended 2021 by then I should be retired from the gig! But I KNOW nothing funky will happen with the OS while I'm working here. For each new x86 hardware update for Linux, it's a whole new 'testing' to make sure it doesn't blow up the OS on the next reboot. Never had that with SPARC of maintained properly.

    With that long-term support and marriage to the hardware I know the relationship is TIGHT, that can be VERY useful when you're concerned with down the road support or integration. Dell or HP does a hardware update and the RedHat or Debian kernel or images haven't been added, then you gotta do a post image. FUCK THAT NIGHTMARE! SPARC WORKS end of story.

    3.) Threads! NOTHING compares to SPARC when it comes to multiple threads and what not. My T2000's running 32 cores make damn good web-servers. They also save space in the rack as well!

    4.) Virtualization is WAY superior than KVM or VMWare. I've used many of the OpenSource VM solutions and frankly non compare to the control that I can do with either LDOMs or Solaris Containers/zones.

    5.) ZFS yeah, Linux we hear your promises of a bad-ass filesystem, I'm still waiting.

    So, is Oracle and SPARC dead? Popularity may go down, that's normal, but it's not "dead" to anyone who has a reason/purpose to use the OS/hardware offered.

    The world isn't one big LAMP stack.

    Again, I'm not *against* Linux, I use it for development and personal shit all day. However, I'm not a blind follower either.

  18. 16 threads per core? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does this even make sense? Are we supposed to believe every core replicates every functional block 16 times? Or are we supposed to believe each of the 16 threads just so happens to only need a different 1/16th of the usual functional blocks found within a core?

    Of course not. Of course not. We are talking server software functions re-purposed as hardware hacks in the core for speed boosts in incredibly limited circumstances. The PC or Android tablet you are reading this on also has 16+ threads per core, if by that you mean how many currently active threads will eventually run on the same core, as the scheduler gives each in turn some 'run-time'.

    The problem with Oracle's horrible hard hacks in SPARC's CPU is that such hacks only offer a possible advantage while the apps are coded in highly specific ways. SPARC defeats the whole purpose of a general programmable CPU. If someone comes up with new data structures and algorithms for server side code bases, SPARC becomes a most unsuitable platform.

    The solution to the 'inefficiency' of thread switching is NOT more hardware hacks, but LESS thread switching. For a single app to create masses of instances via masses of threads breaks most general CPU architectures, because of how the memory sub-systems work. The answer is to 'abstract' the threads in the code itself, rather than issue real threads to the OS. So that "16 threads per core" should be recoded as "1 thread per core" with "16 connections per thread".

  19. Does it really matter? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    To me database is just a resource, so I may be looking at this wrong, but it seems that the Oracle server is just an appliance, and it doesn't matter to me what architecture it runs on as long as it performs well. So buying an Oracle server on Sparc isn't really a matter of "it's not x86" or "it's not Power". Since I'm not going to use the box for anything except Oracle, the cpu architecture is immaterial. Not even the OS is important, as long as it works well.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Does it really matter? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      That underlying architecture affects how likely it will "perform well." There's a reason people tend to deploy server applications on UNIX systems rather than Windows.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    2. Re:Does it really matter? by eWarz · · Score: 1

      Should a server really be just an appliance? Servers must be kept up-to-date with the latest security updates, etc. Appliances are plug in and forget.

      In addition, at my day job, we often re-purpose servers for various uses. A non x86 server would severely limit our options when it comes to this. For example, when we outgrow our current database server, we can purchase a new one and utilize the old one as a standby web server, development server, or something similar.

    3. Re:Does it really matter? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      That underlying architecture affects how likely it will "perform well." There's a reason people tend to deploy server applications on UNIX systems rather than Windows.

      Agreed, which is why our back end servers tend to be Unix or Linux. But in this case, Oracle owns both the architecture and the underlying OS, so one would think that there was some optimization going on.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:Does it really matter? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Should a server really be just an appliance? Servers must be kept up-to-date with the latest security updates, etc. Appliances are plug in and forget.

      In addition, at my day job, we often re-purpose servers for various uses. A non x86 server would severely limit our options when it comes to this. For example, when we outgrow our current database server, we can purchase a new one and utilize the old one as a standby web server, development server, or something similar.

      An Oracle server, or a Netezza server, or a Google appliance, or a storage appliance, are purchased for a particular purpose. They're not general purpose servers, and as such, it doesn't matter what they run (assuming the admin tools are adequate to whatever administration is required) and it doesn't matter what architecture they use, as long as it's adequate to the task. That most appliances of this kind run some variation of Unix is a plus for old time Unix admins like you and me, but it's not really part of the purchasing decision.

      The Oracle servers purchased on Sparc architecture running Solaris could in theory be turned into general purpose Unix servers. (There are still a lot of applications that run on Solaris) but that isn't usually what happens. Typically, the primary Oracle servers get regulated to test or development status as they're replaced with better primary Oracle servers. They're still Oracle servers.

      The advantage of this mindset is that usually, USUALLY mind you, when you buy the stack (h/'w, os, app) as an integrated whole, the benefits are less work for the admin, tighter integration and better performance. Of course there are counter-examples, but that doesn't invalidate the concept.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  20. Oracle is hated more than MS ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having PO'ed every technophile in the world, Oracle actually expects anyone with a brain to recommend them as a path to go down? I recommend all of my clients move away from them at warp speed, and embrace other - faster, better - technologies. Oracle has managed to destroy everything it touches - I see no reason to expect they will do anything difference on this.

  21. Re:frosty piss; too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Why the fuck did you have to copy the entire thing for a 1 sentence reply?!
    You're just as big of a dickshit as the OP is.

  22. Re:Who cares? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Insightful? No. I have an FPGA dev board on my desk. The dev board costs around $8K, the FPGA alone can be bought in small quantities for about $4K. We use it for experimental processor design. It can run our MIPS64-based softcore at about 100MHz (drawing around 40W) and there's enough space on die for 4-8 cores. You can't run a processor on one that is competitive with a cheap ARM processor (except if you configure the FPGA for a single algorithm, then you can't run general-purpose code on it), let alone one with 'all the power and capabilities we want'. FPGAs are cool, but they're no substitute for ASICs.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  23. 8MB L3 cache? by ThePhilips · · Score: 1

    To recap, the T5 chip has 16KB of L1 data cache, 16KB of L1 instruction cache, and 128KB of L2 cache for each of its sixteen cores, plus an 8MB L3 cache that all of the cores share.

    8MB L3 cache for 16 cores?!

    Are they kidding??

    IMO: DOA.

    --
    All hope abandon ye who enter here.
  24. Ellison: "Sparc runs Oracle faster than anything" by emil · · Score: 1

    Not many people noticed this:

    "I am going to make a promise to you," Ellison said. "By this time next year, that Sparc microprocessor will run the Oracle database faster than anything on the planet."

  25. How much is Oracle Solaris? How much for Linux? by emil · · Score: 1

    Oracle charges a big fat $0 dollars for their Linux port, including free updates.

    Oracle was kind enough to drop free updates from Solaris, drop Ultrasparc support, drop OpenSolaris, and by extension drop the userbase. Why pay when a sibling product is free?

    Oracle intended to drive customers out the door. What other conclusion can there be?

    1. Re:How much is Oracle Solaris? How much for Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One possible conclusion is they want squeeze out all the cheapos and whiners and herd them into linux or something else. Keep Solaris as a high end product for their high end customers that wouldn't bat an eyelid on the cost as it would be minuscule compared to the bazillion they'll be pouring into other contracts with Oracle.

      It would make sense if the claim that Oracle is still pouring money into Solaris development.

  26. Re:Who cares? by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    I believe FPGAs are still more efficient than any CPU you could print at home within a few years.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  27. Re:SUN is dead. by Roachie · · Score: 1

    No, some fucker in Soviet Russia won, dickhead.

    --
    This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
  28. AMD supports quad machines with 16 REAL cores. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've worked with T1 and T2's they are impressive hardware. But that's 4 threads and 8 threads on 8 cores, respectively, so a T5 that supports 16 threads was a foreseeable development. But AMD sells 16 core cpu's for about $500/cpu, and you can get them in 4 way configurations that support up to 512GB of RAM and they are impressively energy efficient. Physical cores should beat threads, especially when we are comparing RISC to CISC, and the AMD's are running at 2-3 Ghz.

    Why the Opteron is not eating everyone's lunch is a mystery to me. I guess you don't get fired for buying Xeon.

  29. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We won't be able to print a CPU at home within a few years. It's completely delusional to think that we will, and points to some fundamental flaws in our education system. Carl Sagan was half right when he spoke of the demon haunted world. We no longer believe in demons, instead we believe any techo-fantasy nonsense that's peddled to us by an uncritical geewhizz media.

  30. Apple is the exception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently Apple seems to be the exception to your rule, being all about sexy, and not of actual technological prowess.

  31. Fastest CPU? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    This is the fastest CPU? I thought that the POWER7 was the fastest, by a mile.

    1. Re:Fastest CPU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the latest IBM PVU table. IBM rates the T5-8 as equivalent to their high-end servers. Note that T5-8 is a *midrange* server; they don't even rate the 32 processor, 32TB M5 system yet.
      http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/passportadvantage/pvu_licensing_for_customers.html

      And note that that's a per-core comparison. Anyone who thinks SPARC is not matching IBM's best, at significantly less cost, well, you need to explain why IBM feels it does.

      Or you could just compare it to IBM's latest 16 core processor...

  32. With any luck yes. by Derwood5555 · · Score: 1

    I hope so.. T4 systems suck. We have problems all the time with the LDOMs spinning up and taking out the entire frame. Also, isn't it about time Solaris died?

  33. Re:High priced, no support and little imagination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are trying to talk sense to a bunch of HP/Dell rejects who decided it's more fun to build their own CentOS Supermicro servers. Their pinhead bosses can't do cost analysis, so they preside over a circus of wannabees that piss the companies money away. The fact that their whole data center could be replaced by 1/2 a row of these machines is lost on them. - mostly because most of them have never seen a data center and the closest they have gotten to a server room is the janitors closet that has the router stuffed into it.
    One of the jerks even started commenting about ISCSI!
    They're fucking retards.
    The people that rule the world really don't give a crap how much shit costs. Why they put up with Ellison is a different story all together.
    IBM used to be the same way before they got out of the computer business.

  34. Re:OpenSource Fud.Oracle is not dead to the unbias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    i haven't seen such a well constructed troll post in years. Seriously, this is good shit.
    --The world isn't one big LAMP stack. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Every 15 year old thinks he knows everything. At 32 you should at least realize you don't know 1/2 the shit you SHOULD know.
    but you gave yourself away with -and a serial cable from my Mac works EVERY time.
    Still, another 10 years or so you are probably gonna be pretty good.

  35. Re:frosty piss; too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because he KNEW someone like you would read at least half of it again before catching on.

  36. Fujitsu's CPU options by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Fujitsu owns the SPARC64 architecture, so in the end, if Oracle drops it or diminishes, Fujitsu would be left as the default owner of the SPARC architecture. They have too much invested in SPARC to abandon it. Although they could go for Itanium, POWER or MIPS if they are for any reason forced to abandon SPARC.

    But I don't see why that will be necessary. With current process nodes and technology, Fujitsu can simply take the latest and greatest CPU they have, make a multi core design out of it, and use it in whatever computers they want. That way, they preserve compatibility as well. Multiprocessing used to be a bad idea when applications weren't well threaded or didn't run in separate processes, but that's been a thing of the past for a while now. So if Fujitsu just takes the latest T5 or its own SPARC64, shrinks and replicates the core and runs w/ it, it would be a simple logical step forward.

    One question - does Fujitsu use Solaris, Linux or some homegrown Unix on their SPARC64 computers?

    1. Re:Fujitsu's CPU options by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      K-Computer and related line of products run Linux, for example.

  37. Still some valuable niches by evilviper · · Score: 1

    Funny thing is, just a couple days ago I was reading a presentation about the obscene amounts of money MorganStanley was saving by switching their OpenAFS cluster from Linux over to Solaris on SPARC.

    The advantages are mostly around ZFS, plus dedupe and compression, but they throw in DTrace as well, as having helped track down performance issues with OpenAFS.

    http://www.ukoug.org/what-we-offer/library/openafs-on-solaris-11-x86-robert-milkowski/

    This is decidedly one place where Linux is lagging massively behind. Linux could eventually catch up, but only if Oracle sits on their ass and doesn't keep improving things (which I expect they wont). FreeBSD seems like the only alternative, but ZFS on FreeBSD lags behind in features, performance, and stability, so Solaris could stay king if Oracle kept throwing money into it (which they won't). FreeBSD also doesn't have the benefit of being built for only one vendor's hardware, so it can have just one set of drivers built-in and heavily tested and documented.

    The Oracle/HP lawsuit left both sides hurting. HP may have a âoeMilkâ the Customer Business Strategy but I'd argue ALL proprietary Unix system vendors, including Oracle, have been doing EXACTLY the same thing ever since AMD's Opteron came out, and brought the end in sight. HP, Oracle, and IBM will continue squeezing the last drops of life out of whatever hardware improvements were already in the pipeline, then just act as rent-seekers, offering maintenance on all those legacy boxes, until the economics makes migrating all those legacy applications to Linux, unavoidable.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  38. Oracle wants too much money... by BookRead · · Score: 1

    I work in what used to be a heavy Sun/Solaris enterprise. We still use a lot of legacy hardware (up through the T2 processors) but pretty much stopped buying when Oracle took Sun over. We also use a lot of Oracle database software. Oracle's has given up on the lower end and are exclusively pitched at the top end of the market. Sun had a lot of problems with their identity over time but they always understood that they needed to create an on-ramp for their brand by supporting the low end. Oracle's systematically destroyed Sun's market ecology, in my opinion, quite deliberately. As usual Sun's hardware stands head and shoulders above anything else in raw performance and elegance. (As do Oracle database products.) But it doesn't matter unless you need the absolutely highest level of performance. And that's a vanishingly small percentage of the market. My management is interested in elasticity and low capital costs now. The cloud and Amazon Web Services seem to be where Sun used to be in mindshare. Oracle might pull it off, but I've seen absolutely no inkling that Larry Ellison cares about anything other than extracting as much margin as he can from the absolute highest paying customers who share his margins. So, probably the T5 and M5 are too late to matter anymore except for a tiny market that needs 8 cores and 32 threads per CPU and has money to burn on very large systems and support contracts. They'd be pretty much the last vendor I'd consider these days for general computing.

  39. Re:High priced, no support and little imagination by evilviper · · Score: 1

    You can run Linux on SPARC, don't know why you would want to though, Solaris is very good. No, it's not Linux, but it's still very good.

    Right there, you're tacitly admitting that there's nothing worthwhile about Oracle's SPARC hardware. If it was faster, or cheaper, or one of the above for some subset of tasks, there would be a huge number of reasons you might want to run Linux on them. Linux is sufficiently cross-platform that moving workloads from x64 to SPARC would be reasonably easy, while porting everything to SPARC would be far more difficult. But you're right, nobody would ever do something crazy like that, because SPARC hardware can't compete with x64.

    By dismissing Linux on SPARC, you're just saying what all of us already knew... That SPARC's only selling point is that it runs Solaris, and has legacy application compatibility.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  40. SPARC options by unixisc · · Score: 1

    The SPARC consortium has its members, but other than Fujitsu, who makes SPARC computers any more? I do think that any company that does ought to go w/ FBSD, OBSD or Linux, so that their fortunes are not tied to anything Oracle does.

    Open Solaris, in terms of this discussion about the SPARC, is indeed dead. OpenIndiana does not have any SPARC support, while a new fork from Open Solaris - Schillix - which does plan to support SPARCs, has just gotten started. So better not go the OpenSolaris/OpenIndiana/Schillix route at all if you have a SPARC server. Instead, load it up w/ FBSD if ZFS is important to you or OBSD or, if one prefers Linux, Debian, and take things from there.

  41. Re:High priced, no support and little imagination by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Why, does T5 break compatibility w/ T4, T3 or T2? If not, what's there to stop anyone from running BSD or Linux on it?

  42. Re:Who cares? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    While true, so is an abacus. Printing even a simple integrated circuit is a long way beyond the capabilities of a state of the art 3D printer. The original 8086 was produced on a 3um process. A 3D printer with that kind of accuracy simply doesn't exist, and that's assuming you could use the same printing techniques for ICs (the chemicals involved are quite corrosive and so you'd need some quite specialised equipment). One of the reasons Intel has maintained such a dominant position is that IC production is one of the fields where economies of scale really, really matter.

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  43. Re:OpenSource Fud.Oracle is not dead to the unbias by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

    1.) SPARC hardware is still WAY superior with remote management than any x86 POS I've ever managed. The ALOM on a SPARC

    You're using hardware that old? My understanding (which could be flawed) is that the SPARC systems have used ILOM for a number of generations now.

    and a serial cable from my Mac works EVERY time. When I worked in past shops managing thousands of Linux Dells and HP's we had nothing but issues with ILOs from the hardware and OS side. Just pure donkey shit.

    I here you there. Modulo the stupid pause-on-Break behavior that went away quite a while ago, Sun has mostly understood remote management via serial console for years. This is something that Dell, IBM, and even Cisco people that I've talked to just don't understand. HP recently has shown some understanding and improvement: iLO 2 sucked hard, iLO 3 was a little better, but now iLO 4 version 1.10+ works reasonably well for initial setup via serial console and subsequently the HTTP interface once one figures out how to configure IP, but before that I saw all sorts of crap, and entering the curses-style ORCA even today from the console is nearly impossible. I still haven't figured out a way to get a real host console when SSHing to iLO, but the serial connection mostly works now, once we found an adapter that works on their anachronistic DB9 connector. I demo'd an IBM system last year, and even IBM's techs couldn't give me a way to make the serial console work.

    When you're a start-up buying used hardware it is a great way to cut cost where investors/owners LOVE. Frankly SPARC hardware in my experience can keep on chugging where those HPs and Dells are falling apart right and left. I don't have time to be fucking with hardware when I'm running the show of a million hats.

    FWIW HP hardware has been reliable for us so far. We were stuck with a number of G6 systems that are mostly gone, a few G7's and quite a few G8's now. My experience has been that the G8 systems are massively better than what preceded them. The DL580 G7 on the other hand, I have little confidence in.

    For each new x86 hardware update for Linux, it's a whole new 'testing' to make sure it doesn't blow up the OS on the next reboot. Never had that with SPARC of maintained properly.

    I've seen a couple of Solaris patch bundles over the years that could render a system unbootable (modulo netbooting or an alternate LU environment), and in the last year a couple of stupid RHEL/Linux kernel bugs that also could render a system unbootable (no LU or way to revert changes, only a netboot rescue environment)

    4.) Virtualization is WAY superior than KVM or VMWare. I've used many of the OpenSource VM solutions and frankly non compare to the control that I can do with either LDOMs or Solaris Containers/zones.

    I haven't personally played with Linux virtualization, but my experience with zones was disappointing.

    5.) ZFS yeah, Linux we hear your promises of a bad-ass filesystem, I'm still waiting.

    Damn straight. Btrfs sure isn't it. I set one up recently to test it, and found that for the thing to mount at boot-time I had to enumerate all of the component disks in the friggin' fstab, and then enabling compression resulted in space utilization *inflating* by 2x, compared to 20x compression that ZFS gets on the same data.

    The world isn't one big LAMP stack.

    Agreed.

  44. Re:High priced, no support and little imagination by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

    What I was trying to do was phrase things in a way to avoid triggering the reactionary responses of people who are emotionally invested in Linux and are completely incapable of hearing any suggestion that there might be some system somewhere that runs better on something other than Linux. Apparently I failed.

    Here's the biggest reason to run Solaris rather than Linux on SPARC: The builder of the hardware also writes the OS. This means a whole bunch of things, for example you'll never encounter a situation where the OS vendor is blaming that hardware vendor for a problem and vice-verse. Or when there is a hardware fault, not only do the mechanisms in the hardware compensate for the failure and keep the system running independently of the OS, there are services in Solaris that are notified of the fault and are able to specifically call out the exact component that failed and how it failed and what the impact on the system is.

    Solaris runs very well on x86. So your restatement of my position doesn't even make any sense. Look, I use Linux. I use it at home and I use it in the data center. There are lots of things that speak for it. But there are areas where Solaris is just better.

  45. Re:High priced, no support and little imagination by evilviper · · Score: 1

    Solaris runs on x86 indeed, but the pricing will kill you, and is such that it makes SPARC servers nearly free if you need Solaris.

    I actually know Solaris fairly well, and it has its strong points, but I can't say the same for SPARC hardware. Oracle and IBM have fared somewhat better than HP (who are dragging out the slow death of the Itanium) but the downfall of proprietary platforms and vendor lock-in, is on the horizon. They just can't compete. SPARC machines used to dominate the top ranks of the TOP500 list, but now they are barely represented. There is no future for SPARC servers in a decade.

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  46. Lawnmowers by h8sg8s · · Score: 1

    Calling the T5 "the world's fastest microprocessor" is akin to saying 1000 lawnmowers is "the world's largest engine." Oracle has optimized SPARC for a 20th Century workload. Time to move on Larry, the rest of the world has.

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