Slashdot Mirror


DoJ Answers FOIA Request After Six Years With No Real Information

An anonymous reader writes "In response to a Freedom of Information Act request about Google's 2007 complaint against Windows Vista search interference, the Department of Justice has after six years released 114 partially redacted pages and 60 full pages of material. Yet these 'responsive documents' consist of public news articles and email boilerplate. All the substantive information has been blacked out."

26 of 107 comments (clear)

  1. Most Transparent Administration Ever by Freddybear · · Score: 4, Informative

    You can see right through them.

    1. Re:Most Transparent Administration Ever by Whalou · · Score: 4, Funny
      From TFA:

      I wanted to get back to you on some of the more pressing issues...probably the most important of which is REDACTED."
      This goes on for an entire page. It's a gray box of nothing.

      They are a bit more transparent than before, they are using gray boxes instead of black to redact text.

      --
      English is not this .sig mother tongue...
    2. Re:Most Transparent Administration Ever by telchine · · Score: 2

      Well, it's quite obvious really, it's been REDACTED

    3. Re:Most Transparent Administration Ever by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Gray uses less ink than black. They're trying to be the good guys -- green.

      Similarly, I'll bet our government is considering charging the families of the executed the cost of the bullet, or drugs, like other countries do, to help reduce the deficit.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    4. Re:Most Transparent Administration Ever by Thruen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering the delay was six years, the request took place during the Bush administration, and under his administration it was never answered. So what exactly is your point? It's high time we stopped making these into republican-democrat issues when it's really much broader than that. One guys points out Obama lies, another points out Bush lies, and we all just point fingers claiming the other party is worse instead of realizing they're both pulling the same shit. Wrong is wrong, it's not any worse because the guy you didn't vote for did it this time, especially when the guy you DID vote for was doing the exact same thing right before him.

  2. Give 'em a break. by preflex · · Score: 5, Funny
    Yossarian's working for the DOJ now?

    All the officer patients in the ward were forced to censor letters written by all the enlisted-men patients, who were kept in residence in wards of their own. It was a monotonous job, and Yossarian was disappointed to learn that the lives of enlisted men were only slightly more interesting than the lives of officers. After the first day he had no curiosity at all. To break the monotony he invented games. Death to all modifiers, he declared one day, and out of every letter that passed through his hands went every adverb and every adjective. The next day he made war on articles. He reached a much higher plane of creativity the following day when he blacked out everything in the letters but a, an and the. That erected more dynamic intralinear tensions, he felt, and in just about every case left a message far more universal. Soon he was proscribing parts of salutations and signatures and leaving the text untouched. One time he blacked out all but the salutation "Dear Mary" from a letter, and at the bottom he wrote, "I yearn for you tragically. A. T. Tappman, Chaplain, U.S. Army." A. T. Tappman was the group chaplain's name.

    When he had exhausted all possibilities in the letters, he began attacking the names and addresses on the envelopes, obliterating whole homes and streets, annihilating entire metropolises with careless flicks of his wrist as though he were God. Catch-22 required that each censored letter bear the censoring officer's name. Most letters he didn't read at all. On those he didn't read at all he wrote his own name. On those he did read he wrote, "Washington Irving." When that grew monotonous he wrote, "Irving Washington." Censoring the envelopes had serious repercussions, produced a ripple of anxiety on some ethereal military echelon that floated a C.I.D. man back into the ward posing as a patient. They all knew he was a C.I.D. man because he kept inquiring about an officer named Irving or Washington and because after his first day there he wouldn't censor letters. He found them too monotonous.

    --Joseph Heller, Catch-22*

    It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta' do it.

    1. Re:Give 'em a break. by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Pretty much. FOIA itself is a joke. The government is a big enough beurocracy that a six-year delay seems pretty quick to me, so I don't expect the purported transparency actually changed behavior at all. However, since some information might eventually come out, nobody with concerns can voice them to anybody else without risking a big scandal (and their career) later. That undermines any internal oversight, since nothing can be handled discreetly in an official capacity. Sure, we can ask for information now, but there won't be anything there to find, and the result is that nothing will improve. Mistakes, bad judgement, and outright evil will still happen, and now it's even less likely to stop.

      Then, of course, there's the redaction. By allowing any redaction, FOIA releases are little more than publicity stunts. because the public will always question what's redacted - even if it's just all the adverbs. When the redactions are substantial, but justified, there's no real way to communicate to the public that they've stumbled on something important. In all courses, FOIA responses cast more doubt on the government, whether it's legitimate concern or not.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:Give 'em a break. by DarkOx · · Score: 2

      I think the better question is Why does the DOJ ever need to have secrecy in a civil matter after the case has been settled.

      I can see for some criminal matters, I can see it for stuff that pertains to a current inquiry or a case that is currently working thru the court system. I can't see what possible legitimacy could exist for secrecy around a closed civil matter in our "free society." Its really hard to imagine any reasons other than covering for missdeeds.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    3. Re:Give 'em a break. by khallow · · Score: 5, Informative

      That undermines any internal oversight, since nothing can be handled discreetly in an official capacity.

      Internal oversight is a bad joke. There's the huge, obvious conflict of interest - foxes are in charge of watching the henhouse. And there are no repercussions when it fails.

      Let's give a particularly notorious example using the current administration. Back in 2010 and 2011, in the "Fast and Furious" gunwalking scheme, the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, a US federal law enforcement bureau) enabled the smuggling of about 2,000 high quality firearms into Mexico without any sort of precaution, either a plan to prevent their use in crime or passing on a warning to Mexican law enforcement so that they could deal with the problem. I say "enabled" because among other things, they encouraged legitimate gun dealers to sell those firearms to the smugglers in question and then allowed those firearms to cross the border into Mexico unchecked (and who knows what else the smugglers carried at that time!).

      By the summer of 2011, it was apparent that these firearms were turning up at crime scenes, including murder, because they had a report to that effect which indicated several hundred of these weapons had already turned up at crime scenes. This includes murders and probably includes US crime scenes. Yet the program was continued (that is, criminals were allowed to continue to smuggle firearms into Mexico that the US had a really good idea would be used in crimes in the US and Mexico) till a US law enforcement agent was killed in a firefight involving two weapons from this program.

      Here's the problem. In the US and probably in Mexico, if you provide a weapon which is used in a crime, knowing that it'll get used for crime, then you are an accessory to that crime. In particular, a number of those crimes were murders. What we have here is a fairly straightforward case of ATF agents committing (probably a large number of times) the felony of accessory to murder and similar crimes. Or maybe criminal negligence, if you're feeling kind to people who may be partly responsible for a couple hundred deaths.

      So what came of the "internal oversight"? Nobody higher up the food chain remembers anything even though there's evidence that they were informed of the progress of the program on occasion. Similarly, the people directly involved work somewhere in DC now. The head of the ATF had to resign without any other consequence. There's no indication that the Department of Justice will ever investigate the activities of Fast and Furious much less prosecute anyone for the crimes committed.

      That's the reality of "internal oversight". It doesn't get done unless the people with external oversight apply enough pressure. That's where FOIA comes in. It allows you to learn enough about what happened that you can apply that pressure.

    4. Re:Give 'em a break. by Dishevel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the better question is Why does the DOJ ever need to have secrecy in a civil matter after the case has been settled.

      Because you can not see the deal that was struck.
      The DOJ found that Microsoft was "Really Fucking Guilty" on this one. (Legal term)
      So they made Microsoft promise to give massive back doors to all their software then agreed to enter the mobile market so that could be back doored as well.
      Then to keep Googles mouth shut about it they gave Google complete ownership of Kansas City and Austin.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    5. Re:Give 'em a break. by Dishevel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To be fair once he cited "Executive Privilege" over the information pertaining to "Fast and Furious" he proved one of two things.
      Either ...
      A: He was deeply involved and there were documents involving "Fast and Furious" and the White House.

      or

      B: The White House had nothing to do with "Fast and Furious" and he lied to Congress to protect Holder.

      So either way he is just another scumbag politician that should have very bad things happen to him.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  3. No surprise by john82 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    News Flash:

    "A recent study has determined that Democrat administrations in Washington are just as bad as their Republican counterparts. There's just as much lying, corruption, scandal, debt, malfeasance and general stupidity. In fact, other than their respective logos, there appears to be no difference at all.

    Film at 11."

    1. Re:No surprise by T.E.D. · · Score: 2

      News Flash: "A recent study has determined that Democrat administrations in Washington

      Apparently it was a Fox News Flash

    2. Re:No surprise by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Informative

      Laugh it up, but that really is most peoples' excuse for voting for those parties.

      It's actually not a bad excuse - plurality voting guarantees that it will be one or the other. I don't know about you, but I donated to the Approval Voting Video on IndyGoGo.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  4. The only thing worst than government secrets... by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The only thing worst than government secrets is badly regulated government transparency so you can no longer legitimately complain about a lack of transparency but only about quality of service.

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  5. So when will Obama be inaugurated? by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 3, Informative

    "My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government. We will work together to ensure the public trust and establish a system of transparency, public participation, and collaboration. Openness will strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness in Government." - Barack Obama

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/TransparencyandOpenGovernment

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:So when will Obama be inaugurated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Still, it's definitely a huge improvement over previous administrations.

      In what ways? Please be specific.

    2. Re:So when will Obama be inaugurated? by Thruen · · Score: 2

      Well, considering Bush in his first year issued an executive order limiting the FOIA (first time it was limited since Reagan) and Obama repealed that executive order in his first month in office, I think we're still doing better. Is it perfect? No. But to say it isn't any better is just showing how unfairly biased you are. Things should be and could be better, but there's no one guy to blame here. I pointed out Bush's limiting of the FOIA but he wasn't the first guy to lie to the American people either, it's been going on for as long as the country has existed. Disagree with Obama because of the mistakes he's made, because he has made them, instead of holding him to some insanely high expectation that he would somehow magically change the way our government has worked for centuries.

    3. Re:So when will Obama be inaugurated? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that the facts say that fewer FOIA requests have actually been responded to under Obama than under Bush. Obama has said all the right things about transparency, but the people who work for him haven't actually done anything. Perhaps you remember that days after taking office Obama issued and executive order closing Guantanamo within a year. It is still open. What you talked about in your post is the same thing. Obama issued a high profile order and then no one followed through (actually the people responsible for following through in the case you mentioned did the exact opposite of the high profile order).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  6. foia has always served as by nimbius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    a pittance for the common man. much as cloistered monks of the dark ages, we the peasants arent meant to understand their knowledge. We merely consume their decrees and avoid asking questions.

    in reality actual freedom of real information is virtually patented by the wikileaks group. the knowledge they provide is indispensable in tracking and understanding the policies and procedures of how our government works. this knowledge has sparked revolution, incited protest, and called for real policy and leadership change. it has become consequently forbidden and persecuted.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  7. FOIA by alexo · · Score: 2

    Any law that does not prescribe personal sanctions for non-compliance isn't worth the paper it is written on.

  8. Re:Great Black Hope by Dishevel · · Score: 2

    While I do not believe in laws forcing "Social Values".
    Social Values in and of themselves are not "Horse shit".
    The lack of Social Values in our culture has cost us dearly. It will continue to cost us.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  9. FOIA just as bad as the White House petition BS by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unfortunately for us citizens of the U.S.A., the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) serves exactly the same purpose that the White House Petitions page "We the People" serves: no purpose other than to coddle the masses and trick them into believing that they are being listened to...
    .
    Then they respond to us with "cute little children, we promise not to build any death stars,... really..." rather than even bother to answer substantively to any questions about real matters. It's just another bureaucratic layer they can point to and say: "look, the process is this, why don't you just follow the outlined process, and wait your time, and we'll get back to you. don't call us, we'll call you."
    .
    It's a damn shame that people really believe this is supposed to work rather than just to mollify, pacify, and distract while government's business as usual continues to happen away from our eyes and our heart's wishes.

  10. Re:Great Black Hope by rickb928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All legislation is someone's morality.

    if you don't get that yet. you're losing.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  11. Re:Great Black Hope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Fuck the Republicans.
    Fuck the Democrats as well.
    Neither one of those parties give a shit about any of us.
    What has to change is the people.
    When you know someone who is a shit worker and gets fired and sues the company. Get rid of them as a friend. Shame them.
    When you know a person suing a company because the dangerous product was dangerous. Get rid of them as a friend. Shame them.
    When you know someone who is collecting food stamps and does not need them. Get rid of them as a friend. Shame them.
    When you know someone who is having their third kid on the states dime. Get rid of them as a friend. Shame them.

    When you do not do these things YOU are the problem.

    Tolerance is not acceptance.

  12. yes, simplistically, yes. by bussdriver · · Score: 2

    The two parties are a good cop/bad cop act. They both must please their bosses by screwing you. The difference is that one is the bad cop and sadly some people are Stockholm Syndrome types and mistake them for the good cop; these people are Republicans. The people who are aware can feel SMUG and secure (and even smarter) knowing they are not being fooled, as they "help out" the good cop so he can help them...

    My question is, which one is more stupid? the masochist one or the gullible one?
    The good cop can get you a plea where you only get half the punishment (but still are punished) so is that good? From 1 perspective, yes. from another... half time in fuck-me-in-the-ass prison is too much time for a crime you didn't commit.

    Rationalizing people caught in the trap will just dismiss people who point out the emperor has no clothes as fools. "Of course politicians lie, that is how one succeeds in politics." Dismissing: perfect, the enemy of good.

    What we must learn to do is how to effectively counter these rationalized defenses instead of merely state all the same imperfection arguments that, even when cogent, are lumped into the same old defense mechanisms and dismissed.

    How we get out of the trap once we know we are stuck inside it? - that is another problem I don't have an answer for. You don't get out of the interrogation room by yourself. 3rd parties are like protestors that don't make the news unless they are beat down and slandered.