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Terrible Advice From a Great Scientist

Shipud writes "E.O. Wilson is the renowned father of sociobiology, a professor (emeritus) at Harvard, two time pulitzer prize winner, and a popularizer of science. In a recent article in the Wall Street Journal, Wilson provides controversial advice to aspiring young scientists. Wilson claims that math literacy is not essential, and that scientific models in biology, intuitively generated, can later be formalized by a specialized statistician. One blogger calls out Wilson on his article, arguing that knowing mathematics is essential to generating models, and that lacking what Darwin called the "extra sense" is essentially limiting to any scientist."

58 of 276 comments (clear)

  1. He's right by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Math, intuition, and insight are all important. But they don't all have to come from the same person. I have worked on plenty of teams where the creative work and number crunching tasks were delegated to different people. I am currently working on a 3D educational game, using OpenGL. It involves lots of gnarly trig and vector math, which I am good at. It also involves lots of creative scene design and character development, which I am not good at. So I work with an artsy chick, and we make a good team. I don't see why splitting creativity and implementation shouldn't work for biology as well.
     

    1. Re:He's right by Alex+Belits · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Science doesn't work like that.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    2. Re:He's right by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Intuition and the part of math that involves being good at grinding through lengthy, dense calculations without making sign errors don't have to be the same person. However, a strong and intuitive sense of what math is capable of (which requires advanced mathematical education) do need to go together for scientific productivity. Otherwise, it's just like the techno-incompetent manager asking engineers to implement his "brilliant" physically impossible designs.

    3. Re:He's right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, a team is important, even if it's only two people. James Watson described his working relationship with Francis Crick in "The Double Helix" - Crick was a polymath and was clearly the senior member of the pair, while Watson was brilliant but lazy (he described himself as "another uneducated Ph.D" whose mind was characterized by "an almost complete lack of chemical facts"). But they both apparently spoke a mile a minute and bounced ideas against each other, until Watson, with the benefit of seeing Rosalind Franklin's famous x-ray crystallography photo, one day hit on a workable molecular model in the lab.

      So Wilson's advice isn't necessarily terrible, although I would take it with a grain of salt. He probably expects everyone in the lab to have mastered vector calculus and linear algebra, since they're so elementary by his standards, so perhaps he's referring to more advanced coursework such as differential geometry.

    4. Re:He's right by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Informative

      Increasingly it does (minus the artsy chick, some fantasies never die). Very few current articles in biology have been written by one or two people. Even those articles have a long list of people that the researchers relied on for technical and intellectual support. It's not Charles Darwin walking down the road any more.

      While there may be great insights developed by single 'intuitive' biologists, the intellectual foundations of those insights are going to come from thousands of disparate people. DNA chemistry and sequencing is an example here - how many biologists understand the chemistry of the analyzers? How many chemists understand the software?

      I don't think H.O. is really correct though. At the complexity level that biologists are working at 'intuitive' thinking isn't going to help much. Working the numbers will.

      I'd rather train a mathematician to be a biologist than the other way around.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:He's right by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know of certain articles in highly recognised journals which passed the review process, pushed by the editors who liked the message so much.

      I also know that their data was largely noise, because the main authors clearly are math illiterate. Of course not everyone needs to be a mathematician, but every scientist should know the basics of statistics and be able to recognise a binomial or Poisson process after a cursory glance at the data.

      Likewise not everyone should be some über-coder, but every scientist should be able to write small programmes in MATLAB, R, numpy, or whatever is appropriate for their field. These are basic qualifications which prevent you from churning out bullshit.

    6. Re:He's right by Molt · · Score: 2

      In your example the coding and art are loosely coupled, it's easy to split them between different people. I suspect that if you knew programming but had no knowledge of 3d maths and there was a third person who knew 3d maths but not programming then you would have a lot more difficulty. Every minor piece of coding would result in a confused conversation where you don't have enough common domain knowledge to communicate effectively, misunderstandings will come in as assumptions are made on both sides, and problems will arise.

      --
      404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
    7. Re:He's right by JustinOpinion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In your analogy, you're talking about a very high-level split that can be done cleanly. One person does the creative work of coming up with a game design (storyline, play control, etc.) without worrying about the underlying implementation details. Then another person can certainly do the engineering and coding work to implement that.

      But it should be obvious that for some other problems this won't work. For example, it doesn't make sense to try and split the coding into a "creative coder" (who knows nothing about programming) and an "implementation coder" who turns the creative's ideas into actual code. The creative would toss out nonsensical ideas (like "instead of using vectors, why not use genetic algorithms?"), and then the implementer would have to explain why all those ideas are silly... or else they would just have to ignore the creative type and simply code something that makes sense.

      In other words, generating good source code requires someone who knows enough about programming that they can see creative solutions. Their intuition is not separate from their programming talent: their intuition is based upon years of training and experience with source code, math, engineering, and so forth. That's where the good ideas come from.

      Coming up with good scientific ideas is similar. Analysing scientific data even moreso. It's only once you have a deep, subliminal understanding of the important concepts that you're going to make substantive progress. Whether a deep understanding of math counts as an "important concept" depends on the field, of course... but I would argue that for science generally, the more mathematical know-how you have, the more informed and powerful your ideas will be.

    8. Re:He's right by SJester · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a scientist (well, almost) and it does work like that with a few caveats. As a biologist I'm not called upon to build intricate mathematical models entirely by myself - but I sure as hell need to understand them before I set to work so I can gather data intelligently, and I need to understand math well during and after so I can communicate with collaborators and contribute to the final papers. I need enough math (and programming, in my branch of the family tree) to at least converse intelligently with team members. A grant application went out recently from our facility. It had a biochemist, a neuroscientist, a mathematician, and a computer scientist on it and the goal is to build a giant computational model of some neural signal cascade. Sounds like the setup for a joke but you can see the spectrum we typically span. Those colors need to blend at the edges.

    9. Re:He's right by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd rather train a mathematician to be a biologist than the other way around.

      With sarcastic apologies to Alex Belits, it doesn't work like that. I mean, it might, but there's issues of both interest and aptitude. Personally, I think you're both right. The best situation is to have both mathematics ability and some other kind of ability concentrated in a single human. Barring that, you can still get things done, perhaps just not as quickly. Thus, it is still preferable but not essential for everyone to have strong mathematics stills.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:He's right by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This would be funny if it were not true... Beware the biologists who tells you they found a number N of categories of each suspiciously smaller than the previous one by the same ratio. And never checked for fear that their result might not be publishable after all.

      As in : "This a ground-breaking, paradigm shifting result: these identical individuals are not: some are short-lived, some long-lived, and we found an intermediate category, too" -- "oh, so your mortality curve follows an exponential law".

    11. Re:He's right by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bullshit. Any scientist needs to understand basic maths, notably statistics. Not advanced calculus or complex algebra. But statistics and understanding what a model is is paramount. If you cannot recognised the patterns produced by common types of random processes, you may well start to believe you have found something.

      And in fact just measured experimental noise.

    12. Re:He's right by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      The thing is, it could be worse than that. It could be much, much worse. Consider it a blessing that biologists are forced to take as much math as they are.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    13. Re:He's right by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Better MATLAB than wishful thinking... I'm not a fan personally, but I would rather people used that than nothing at all.

      I'd like to introduce you to Julia. The sooner it gets widespread, the better for mankind. Or at least for engineerkind...

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    14. Re:He's right by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      it's a shitty language. Still, in my opinion, much better that than nothing.

      Why is is shitty, you ask? No objects, the syntax is not orthogonal (octave is a clone but seems to have done indices right, at least). Horrible, inconsistent libraries. Incredibly inefficient -- People going from naïve matlab to naïve c++ can get x1000 speed-ups.

      And so on.

      And yet, not coding at all is infinitely worse, so I don't give a hard time to my colleagues who at least try :)

    15. Re:He's right by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      don't get me started on MDs, they should never be allowed near a lab until they get a real university degree in a hard science. Which they should get _after_ their MD.

      MD is a trade, like Carpenter or Mason or Lawyer. A hard one, which requires all sorts of qualities. But it does not qualify you to do science. Not remotely.

    16. Re:He's right by Grieviant · · Score: 4, Informative

      You make the assumption that a long list of authors indicates a truly collaborative research effort. In practice, this is very rarely the case. From my experience, nine times out of ten the work is done completely by the primary author or the first two authors. The rest of the authors are supervisors, technical managers, those who secured the funding, possibly a technician who assisted with the experiments, etc., who never even lay eyes on the paper until it's basically finished.

    17. Re:He's right by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True, but statistics usually requires intermediate algebra and could probably be taught in highschool without too much trouble. And the bottom line is that the formal theory is neither necessary nor sufficient for somebody to look at the data and see meaningful patterns. As long as you have somebody on the team that can whip up a model to fit the data that you can then test against future experiments, you're fine. There's no particular reason why any particular scientist needs that specialty.

      And anyways, it's not just the statistics, it's the experience of having crunched many numbers and found many errors in the past. Realistically a specialist is much more likely to find the problem in an efficient manner than the other team members. Do enough math and eventually you can pretty much see the errors without even trying.

      That being said, everybody really should have that class as part of their education as it's so helpful during the 99.9999% of your life where you don't have a statistician on hand to analyze your data for you.

    18. Re:He's right by hedwards · · Score: 2

      You have to balance it. In order for interdisciplinary teams to work you have to have familiarity with their specialty. Trying to work where you know nothing of their specialty just leads to problems like mistakes being made between fields.

    19. Re:He's right by chihowa · · Score: 2

      The MD, PhD program is a popular way now of "legitimizing" an MD's role in science. In these programs, the PhD part of the degree is typically a joke involving no more actual research than than would be involved in an MS. They also get no more rigorous science classwork than they incidentally receive in the training for their MD. While they probably make great doctors, they don't seem to make very impressive scientists, and it's sad that they are seen as adequate replacements for properly trained scientists. (If you're willing to risk substandard science, they are great as a cost-saving measure: in medical research, you get the required MD and PhD in the same package. They can also see patients when not "doing research", which makes the hospital money.)

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    20. Re:He's right by excelsior_gr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are absolutely right, but the GP was making the point that the so-called "interdisciplinary" science is becoming the norm. Taking the author lists as an example was an unfortunate choice for an argument, but that doesn't invalidate his point.

    21. Re:He's right by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is true. About three quarters of the time, the paper is written by a single grad student, utilizing mostly his/her research along with a dabbling of other group members' work (and on occasion a more significant amount of work performed but often not understood by an undergrad), and then edited by the PI. Everyone gets their name on the paper, and often everyone is given a copy of the final draft to review before it goes to print just as a double-check, but the first author is typically the one that did all the writing.

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    22. Re:He's right by pepty · · Score: 2

      DNA chemistry and sequencing is an example here - how many biologists understand the chemistry of the analyzers? How many chemists understand the software?

      The answer is both most and not enough.

      I don't think you could get through an undergraduate biology degree without being introduced to the basic chemistry underlying traditional (Sanger) sequencing, PCR, etc. Most chemists end up having to do at least some basic scripting if they're going to use automated analytical or synthesis equipment.

      On the other hand, lots of biology papers have proven to be fatally flawed because of poor understanding/poor usage of statistics. Brain functional MRI studies, gene array studies, and a lot of other fields have published loads of irreproducible crap because of this.

    23. Re:He's right by arth1 · · Score: 2

      I don't know the MD/PhD folks that you have had experience with, but as a graduate student I find that the training of the MD/PhDs that I interact with on a daily basis is just as rigorous as that of the standard grad students.

      No one has disputed that they are well trained. In their field.
      But that field doesn't qualify them as scientists. Nor does it disqualify them. Medicine is perpendicular to science. Much of it is based on science. And it feeds science. But an MD is not automatically qualified to do science, unless she's a scientists too.

    24. Re:He's right by fearofcarpet · · Score: 2

      You make the assumption that a long list of authors indicates a truly collaborative research effort. In practice, this is very rarely the case. From my experience, nine times out of ten the work is done completely by the primary author or the first two authors. The rest of the authors are supervisors, technical managers, those who secured the funding, possibly a technician who assisted with the experiments, etc., who never even lay eyes on the paper until it's basically finished.

      And from my experience, publishing dozens of peer-reviewed scientific articles, your experience is the exception. In fact, many sciences do not even utilize technicians. In the ten or so laboratories that I have worked in/with and the labs of the numerous professors that I talk with about their publication policies, exactly zero will allow someone authorship on a paper that they don't see until it's "basically finished." I'm sure some fall through the cracks, though certainly not the majority. However, I would not generalize my experiences and neither should you.

      You also minimize the role of "those who secured the funding." Let me translate that phrase: "Those who came up with the ideas, spent countless hours writing proposals, will lose their job if they cannot secure said funding at a regular clip, and actually did the work putting together the collaborative team, which they hand pick, train/supervise, and for which they provide a state-of-the-art lab." Let's not forget that they were on the receiving end, as the first or second author, often for over a decade, before earning the right to that asterisk by their name.

      --
      Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
    25. Re:He's right by Squirmy+McPhee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And from my experience, publishing dozens of peer-reviewed scientific articles, your experience is the exception. In fact, many sciences do not even utilize technicians. In the ten or so laboratories that I have worked in/with and the labs of the numerous professors that I talk with about their publication policies, exactly zero will allow someone authorship on a paper that they don't see until it's "basically finished." I'm sure some fall through the cracks, though certainly not the majority. However, I would not generalize my experiences and neither should you.

      My experience -- also publishing dozens of peer-reviewed scientific articles -- is quite different from yours and much more like that of the poster to whom you were responding. More than once I've found out that I was a co-author on an article when the publishing company contacted me to let me know that my article had been received for submission. That's even a step beyond what the first poster mentioned -- I didn't even see the article that I supposedly co-authored until after it was submitted for publication! I've also had my authorship credit manipulated so as to imply collaboration where there was none. It was accidental, I think, but afterward there was actually a story in the press about our non-existent collaboration.

    26. Re:He's right by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      Amusingly, I have a mathematician friend who came up with an algorithm to solve numerically chemical problems. The things you describe are more the product of being a skilled technician than a scientist... As for the total synthesis of strychnine, I would think that doing that ab nihilo would require enormous amounts of maths. Or lots of trial and error.

      People who do not understand maths fail to realise that mathematicians can frequently learn the essential bits of their specialty very fast, because they are trained to think in the abstract. See for example the stories of Feynman amongst biologists. Also, in many fields, people still learn heaps of useless facts with very little attention to overarching theories which allow one to quickly figure out said facts...

    27. Re:He's right by fearofcarpet · · Score: 2

      Amusingly, I have a mathematician friend who came up with an algorithm to solve numerically chemical problems. The things you describe are more the product of being a skilled technician than a scientist... As for the total synthesis of strychnine, I would think that doing that ab nihilo would require enormous amounts of maths. Or lots of trial and error.

      I'm fairly confident that E.J. Corey would not describe his Nobel prize-winning research as something that "a skilled technician" could do. And by your logic, my cell phone is a better mathematician than any human that has every lived. Your friend's algorithm is undoubtably cute, but would fail in practice the vast majority of the time.

      In reality, it is impossible to perform a total synthesis in silico or really to do any chemistry ab initio because the subtleties are too complex to understand, let alone model. People have been claiming for years now that organic chemistry is dead--that it has been relegated to following recipes because every molecule of interest can be prepared using "known" reactions. In reality, no one has managed to come close to supplanting the work of the talented scientists who make molecules for a living. The most useful application of math in total synthesis, in my opinion, is using explicit, exact, known transformations to build chemical networks to shorten and optimize existing synthetic routes (e.g., in industry).

      People who do not understand maths fail to realise that mathematicians can frequently learn the essential bits of their specialty very fast, because they are trained to think in the abstract. See for example the stories of Feynman amongst biologists. Also, in many fields, people still learn heaps of useless facts with very little attention to overarching theories which allow one to quickly figure out said facts...

      People with too much mathematical training fail to realize that the vast majority of science cannot be abstracted. They fall into the trap of hindsight, thinking that the elegant equations that "govern" (I disagree strongly with that common phrasing) natural processes is evidence that everything can be understood in the abstract language of mathematics. What they fail to understand--because they are largely unaware of it--is that actual scientific discovery requires intuition and creativity; more the Sherlock Holmes type than the Feynman type.

      Feynman is, in fact, an excellent example of how math benefits science that lends credence to Wilson's argument. Once the difficult exploratory work has been done, and a robust experimental framework is in place to generate data, it is exceedingly useful for mathematically-inclined people to make sense of it all by formulating theories. However, no matter how gifted a mathematician, no amount of abstract thinking can compete with practical knowledge.

      --
      Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
  2. WSJ article title is somewhat misleading. by void* · · Score: 5, Informative

    From that WSJ article: "If your level of mathematical competence is low, plan to raise it, but meanwhile, know that you can do outstanding scientific work with what you have."

    I don't really see anything wrong with telling people to still keep thinking about things, find out what they like to study, and get more math. More 'don't let current lack of math get you down' than 'you don't need math at all'.

    --


    Code or be coded.
    1. Re:WSJ article title is somewhat misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ssh, we're busy crafting a strawman here, and you're just trying to blow it down!

  3. from the father of handwaving by stenvar · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sociobiology is theories about how observed human behavior and social structures have arise from evolution. Where does cooperation come from? Where does homosexuality come from? How are these traits beneficial for animals and humans, and why haven't they been selected against? Sociobiologists come up with plausible and reasonable sounding theories for many of these, but most of them remain just guesswork if there isn't hard data and hard mathematical modeling (many remain just guesswork even with data and models). Wilson is right that you don't need to be proficient at math to succeed at science. But that's perhaps more a testament to the poor criteria by which some areas of science measure success than to what a scientist actually needs.

    1. Re:from the father of handwaving by Vintermann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't delude yourself: This is anti-intellectualism. Sociobiology has issues, but that's not because it's got "socio" in the name.

      It's because evolutionary explanations have extremely high status, meaning they are often reflexively believed, even when they can't be backed up. It has become (has always been, really) a refuge for the kind of people who would rather make "bold statements" than work incrementally to increase our understanding. Wilson's statements sums it up all too accurately: make the statements now, leave to others to test it mathematically later.

      On the contrary, social sciences have extremely LOW status, as your prejudicial comment sums up. Have you heard about the Cochrane collaboration, evidence-based medicine? You probably have. Why did it take so long to appear? Because medicine and molecular biology has high status, whereas the "social" population studies of epidemiologists had low status. So if the high-status people said, "from our understanding of molecular biology, this should work", for a long time that would be tried, even though from a 10.000 feet view it would have been obvious it did NOT work.

      You need both kinds. You need people who take the bottom-up approach, building bricks of what we know, and assemble it into bigger things. Then you need to have people who take the top-down approach, because no matter how well the pieces fit, it's no good if the larger building can't actually stand. In some fields, like physics, these are closely intertwined. In others, they are tragically separated. For that to change, the white-coat status prejudices of people like you need to be broken down.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  4. Yes and no by overshoot · · Score: 2

    Math is not necessary -- in fact it can be a serious liability -- in formulating hypotheses. For instance, much of sociobiology. On the other hand, it's indispensable for testing those hypotheses and sorting the valuable ideas from the attractive bullshit.

    Which category holds much of sociobiology is a question beyond my own skills.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  5. Science without math by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    That's like literature without words...

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  6. Title and summary by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 5, Informative

    Are sensationalized bullshit. The original article did not make that claim, only that you shouldn't let a fear of maths or advanced maths prevent you from a career in the sciences. Obviously, don't plan a career in Physics, but there are plenty of interesting areas of study that don't require Calculus+ areas of math proficiency (sociobiology being one).

    As an ECE, most of my studies were centered around differential equations. However, my sister, who did biology/chemistry(two hard sciences) with an intent to move on to dental school, hardly had to touch maths at all.

    --
    while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    1. Re:Title and summary by minstrelmike · · Score: 2

      I'll go with ooBush's analysis over EO Wilson's. I have a degree in math. I have never understood why Calculus is mandatory (4 semesters) for most everyone but statistics is not. Calculus is overkill for most degrees. It should only be mandatory for engineers and math geeks. Statistics is what should be mandatory for everyone with a college degree.

      There is far more to a useful general mathematics education than The Calculus

    2. Re:Title and summary by siwelwerd · · Score: 2

      I have never understood why Calculus is mandatory (4 semesters) for most everyone but statistics is not.

      Probably (no pun intended) because one really needs (some) calculus to understand things like continuous probability distributions and the Central Limit Theorem.

    3. Re:Title and summary by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Exactly. "Statistics for people who don't understand math" courses are counterproductive and actually dangerous to the sciences. They churn out people who treat statistical analysis as a magical black box --- they've memorized which incantation sequences to type into some calculator or statistical analysis software package without the least understanding of what they're doing. The result is folks churning out research analysis applying all sorts of sophisticated-sounding statistical methods in inapplicable and utterly wrong ways. If calculus and linear algebra are above your comprehension level, then your understanding of statistics will do nothing but put you in the "knows just enough to be dangerous" category where you're too ignorant to tell that you're incompetent.

  7. "literacy" is not "skill". by mbkennel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sure, the roles do require "math literacy" which is a lower standard than "sufficient mathematical and comptuational capability to independently produce results for a research journal."

    Just like natural language literacy is a lower standard than powerful, skilled writing.

    1. Re:"literacy" is not "skill". by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Sure, the roles do require "math literacy" which is a lower standard than "sufficient mathematical and comptuational capability to independently produce results for a research journal."

      I'd argue that if "sufficient mathematical and comptuational capability to independently produce results for a research journal" includes such things as botching an Excel spreadsheet of a dataset that was lousy to begin with, and in spite of this you still get published and win various awards and gold medals, then the "not-so-low" standard isn't something to be proud of either.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:"literacy" is not "skill". by davester666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the math proved what they wanted to show, therefore it was "good enough"

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  8. Fascinating insight by rickb928 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My 'aunt', who still works for a pharmaceutical firm analyzing statistical analyses by researchers, would snort tea out her nose reading this. Doing the research, finding a useful drug, doing minimal testing, and then concocting the analysis to fit the very limited empirical model is not uncommon in the drug industry. Her job was and is to study that 'analysis', identify any problems, send it back for improvement, and repeat until either the researchers give up and move on to something they can demonstrate is effective AND safe enough for the market, or succeed and are able to show provable, reliable results.

    Wilson would not like herm, and for good reason - she would call his methods little more than guessing. She has proven repeatedly that well-meaning researchers can find some statistician to lend unwarranted credence to imaginary results.

    Kinda sad that this passes as science at all. Wilson seems, to me, to be stating that research need not be proven, merely justified.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  9. Re:He's not right by femtobyte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Collecting data without having a darn good grasp of how the data analysis works is a great way to waste a huge amount of time and money collecting mostly useless data. It may not be the same person doing both, but the data-collector definitely needs to be intimately "in the loop" about how their experimental work impacts uncertainties in the final analysis.

  10. Re:Do what he did by Trepidity · · Score: 2

    See also: Noam Chomsky on language

  11. Re:He's not right by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Teams these days are really large, so much so that the data-collector is often not even the person designing the experiment. And that person is not the person doing the analysis of the data, who is not the person designing the mathematical model, who is in turn not the person implementing the simulation software. They all have to communicate in various ways, but they cannot each have all of those skills.

    On smaller projects it may be the case that there's a more unified role of "experimental scientist", who does need to do all of understanding the model, designing the experiments, and carrying out the experiments. But on large teams the people actually collecting data need more technical skills, focused on operating various kinds of equipment properly. Someone else has drawn up exactly which experiments need to be run, but getting them run properly is not easy. Hence there are various scientific roles, like laboratory technician, that don't even require advanced degrees.

  12. Understanding statistics ... by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... is necessary for good experiment design. Trying to fix a poorly conceived experiment or bad data after the fact is like trying to cure diarrhea by messing with the bathroom plumbing.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  13. Re:math comes second by femtobyte · · Score: 2

    Math may come second, but it does need to come. If Einstein had just been the guy who went around saying "dude, everything is like totally relative! Cosmic space-time bendy-warp, all-one time-cube, dude!," and expecting someone else to fill in the mathematical formalism, I doubt he'd be all that famous now. Einstein was able to write down his insights as tensor calculus equations --- that's why he's remembered as a famous scientist, not an incoherent ranting quack.

  14. Re:math comes second by khallow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Except when the math generates the insights.

    For example, Dirac predicted the existence of anti-matter from a model of the electron with interactions with photons. For the model to work mathematically, he had to have a second particle, the positron which had opposite properties of the electron.

    Then there's the search for missing planets. Neptune was found by noticing that Uranus didn't follow the orbit as predicted by the mathematical model of the then known Solar System.

    Radioactive dating wouldn't be possible without a model of how decay works. That in turn has generated new insights.

  15. Re:He's not right by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Without understanding the measurements and statistics involved, the experiment design will most certainly turn out to be crap.

    Here, fixed that for ya.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  16. "OK to stop after Calculus" != "no math" by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 2

    In the article, Wilson talked about how making it through Calculus ended up giving him all the math he needed to do his own work, and would suffice for much other important scientific work. I frankly thought that his target was not simply the population of smart but "merely OK at math" students who are being deterred from scientific fields, but the gatekeepers of the fields themselves, who would probably reject someone like Crick for his C grade in Calculus. He's not arguing for lower standards, but for more diversity in how we see scientific talent. If the litmus test for the "promising future scientist" were based almost entirely on the verbal SAT score, I can imagine that Crick would be railing against that. But as it stands, he simply thinks the pendulum is too far in the math direction, and this is doing a disservice to science. I find that quite reasonable!

  17. Extremely crap 'scientist' dribbles rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    America is the land of pseudo-science, and pseudo-scientists who push the 'right' agendas can easily rise to the top of their profession, and be lavished with all kinds of prizes and recognition.

    -The depraved monsters who created and executed the 'scientific' studies to inject healthy black Americans with syphilis, and watch them suffer untreated, were highly regarded doctors.
    -The depraved monster who photographed generations of young men and women naked at ivy-league universities all across America in order to push his ideas on race and eugenics was a highly regarded scientist in the same vein as E.O.Wilson
    -The depraved doctor who introduced female genital mutilation to the USA (a practice that was widespread up till the 1960s) was thrown out of the UK, but was given a tremendous reception by the medical community in the USA.
    -The depraved monster that attempted (and almost succeeded) in having lobotomy as common as vaccination won the highest scientific awards in the USA.
    -The racist filth that created the concept of eugenics, and pushed for programs that eventually led to forced sterilisation in countries all across the globe, were given the highest praise by the scientific community in the USA.
    -Even today, male genital mutilation is universal across the USA, originally made popular by madmen like Dr Kellogg in the 19th century as a 'cure' for masturbation. Every 20 years or so the US medical community reaffirms the desirability of MGM by claiming it is a defence against whatever illness is currently significant in the minds of the public. It is notable that all the early studies in Africa discovered circumcised males suffered massively INCREASED rates of AIDS infection. When Jewish and Muslim and evangelical American propagandists took control of WHO research bodies a number of years later, magically the results of the studies reversed.

    "Government scientist" is an oxymoron. You are either loyal to the fundamental principles of science, or loyal to a current political agenda. The 'scientists' that the general public hears from are not scientists at all, but propagandists. Sadly, many fields of science are very expensive to pursue, and the people that pay the bills frequently have strong ideas about the 'news' they expect to hear.

    'Sociobiology' is just today's eugenics- another branch of pseudo-science strongly linked to religious concepts that are worked in order to create the circumstances for new wars on a global scale. 'Sociobiology' is designed to argue that 'war' is just an extension of evolution, just as eugenics and the theory of 'race' was originally created to give a scientific justification of slavery in the USA during the first half of the 19th century. Eugenics flourished in the USA after slavery was ended, in order to counter the concept of "all men are created equal", and ensure the spread of the 'Jim Crow' laws that existed until the 1960s.

  18. Re:He's not right by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was a natural sciences major in college and what you're talking about is one or maybe 2 classes worth of math. You don't need calculus or anything beyond that in most cases to design an experiment, obviously depending upon the particular field of study. Statistics itself is heavily derived from a set of formulas that you can look up in a book and the reasoning behind it requires at most intermediate algebra to understand.

    I definitely agree that you need an understanding of statistics to design your experiments, but really, the amount of math you really need is surprisingly small given that you're going to want to bring in an expert that's experienced in the specific area you're working anyways. Now, were we to go back in time to days when there wasn't a huge team, that would presumably be a different matter. But, understanding doesn't really require that much math.

    TL:DR, you're going to want an expert in dealing with modelling and data of the type you're looking at. It makes more sense than reinventing the wheel every time you do an experiment and forcing people to master not just one specialty, but several of them, and ultimately it's unlikely that they'll achieve a level high enough to compete with the best in both fields.

  19. Re:He's not right by Grieviant · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You make a very strong point. There are often statistical and mathematical modeling assumptions that the researchers are aware of ahead of time, subtle pitfalls in the experimental setup that must be avoided to produce the type of data needed, etc., that the technicians/engineers will be unaware of unless the researchers themselves are directly involved in the experiments. By the same token, it's a good idea to have an engineer involved in the data collection review the research prior to publication to catch any obvious flaws in the modeling assumptions or misuse of the data (even if he doesn't understand everything in the paper). 'Separation of duties' is something that comes from laziness or time/budget constraints rather than being a template for solid scientific work.

  20. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  21. Faraday's an example by blue+trane · · Score: 2

    "Faraday was an excellent experimentalist who conveyed his ideas in clear and simple language; his mathematical abilities, however, did not extend as far as trigonometry or any but the simplest algebra."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday

  22. Sociobiology by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2

    This is not a science.

  23. Re:What is "Science" ? by Pseudonym · · Score: 2

    Science and its requirements are dynamic, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the relationship between maths and biology.

    When I was an undergraduate about 20 years ago, biology was the science you did if you liked science but didn't like maths. In the intervening years, largely thanks to the rise of bioinformatics, this is no longer true.

    E.O. Wilson didn't need to have a mathematical background back in his day, but that day is now gone. We now have the technology to make quantifiable predictions, but there is a generation of biologists who don't even consult a statistician before designing an experiment.

    --
    sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  24. What E.O. Wilson Wrote is 100% Correct by fearofcarpet · · Score: 2

    Did anyone actually read Wilson's article... including the irate, myopic blogger who is projecting his own bias while criticizing Wilson for the same?

    Well, I have a professional secret to share: Many of the most successful scientists in the world today are mathematically no more than semiliterate.

    In my fifteen-or-so years as an academic scientist, I have found this observation to be 100% correct and I have worked with some incredibly famous and well-respected scientists not unlike E.O. Wilson.

    Far more important throughout the rest of science is the ability to form concepts, during which the researcher conjures images and processes by intuition.

    In other words, math skills have nothing to do with creativity and science is driven, at its most fundamental level, by creative thinking.

    Pioneers in science only rarely make discoveries by extracting ideas from pure mathematics. Most of the stereotypical photographs of scientists studying rows of equations on a blackboard are instructors explaining discoveries already made.

    Math is a descriptive language, not an engine for discovery, duh.

    Ideas in science emerge most readily when some part of the world is studied for its own sake. They follow from thorough, well-organized knowledge of all that is known or can be imagined of real entities and processes within that fragment of existence. When something new is encountered, the follow-up steps usually require mathematical and statistical methods to move the analysis forward. If that step proves too technically difficult for the person who made the discovery, a mathematician or statistician can be added as a collaborator.

    Modern science is too complex for one generalist to do everything (and to take credit for it). These days everyone is a specialist, with a PhD in a very specific subject, and they all work together to bring ideas through to discoveries and eventually to technology. Would anyone argue that the POTUS runs the entire federal government by himself, being a world-class expert in everything from speech writing to foreign policy? Then why is it so hard to imagine that great discoveries are supported by the collaborative efforts of many, with one generally receiving the lion's share of the credit for the actual discovery?

    The response of the blogger focuses on the idea that Wilson is an outlier and that, like Bill Gates dropping out of college, his resume should not be used as a template. But Wilson is not arguing that he was successful because he was semi-literate at math, he is arguing that you can be successful by focusing on what your good at, and complimenting your abilities with fruitful collaboration. His reason for making this argument is simple; too many people that would otherwise make talented scientists shy away from the sciences because they aren't good at math.

    My two cents: there are, very broadly speaking, two principle kinds of scientists (with many exceptions). There the creative types, who are rarely good with math, often lack attention to detail, but who are astonishingly good at creative problem solving. Then there are the analytic types, who are too skeptical to be creative, are often detail-oriented, but who are astonishingly good at analyzing and understanding raw data. The best science is performed by teams comprising both types of people who respect and trust one another.

    --
    Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.