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Salesforce, a Pillow Maker and a $125k AmEx Bill

Posted by Soulskill on from the Carnac-the-Magnificent-punchline-needed dept.

itwbennett writes "Salesforce.com, pillow manufacturer My Pillow, and an employee of My Pillow are caught up in a complex three-way legal battle. At issue is an allegedly failed software implementation and a $125,000 charge on a personal card. In short, there was an aggressive go-live date, a demand for immediate payment, and a system that was ultimately 'not functional'. Now, AmEx won't remove the charge, Salesforce.com is suing My Pillow for breach of contract and wants $550,000 in damages, My Pillow denies it owes anyone anything and is seeking unspecified damages from Salesforce.com, and the employee with the big bill wants his account credited. Still unclear is why My Pillow had no choice but to use the employee's personal credit card — and why the employee was naive enough to hand it over."

12 of 228 comments (clear)

  1. What? by ArchieBunker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Clearly news for nerds, a boring legal battle in a slightly incomprehensible summary.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:What? by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 5, Funny

      This story sponsored by: Dice.com

    2. Re:What? by gl4ss · · Score: 5, Informative

      it's a threeway bullshit throwing battle.

      salesforce.com selling the work of some 3rd party consultant to the client for sum X and day Y, just shoveling bullshit for money. said consultant(or company or whatever, some entity) then delivered the thing late and held the project hostage until got payment roughly doubly the original estimate, said product wasn't "ready". the company buying the service actually paying that is the amazing part but not so amazing after you hear what the product was for: tracking effectiveness of every single 15-30sec tv advertisement, so their product request was bullshit as well.

      but why would someone spot their company 125k of cash on a credit card? why is salesforce asking 550k for breach of contract when they didn't deliver? how come the pillow company is saying that their advertisement campaign failed because they lacked tracking? did their sales go up or not? how the fuck is salesforce getting away with saying to amex that a contract they have with my pillow allows them to charge a card they already refunded once and a card that's not my pillows card? why didn't he just cancel said card?

      the only thing to take home from it is that you shouldn't do business with any of these companies. oh, and never ever loan your employer money.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    3. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      "it's a threeway bullshit throwing battle."

      Well, technically it's a pillow fight.

    4. Re:What? by Bigby · · Score: 5, Informative

      The summary was beyond awful. I actually had to read the article to figure this out:

      My Pillow - A company that makes pillows
      Salesforce.com - A company that makes software
      Personal Credit Card - A My Pillow employee's credit card

      My Pillow spent $60k-70k to have software delivered by June 1. It didn't make the date and Salesforce.com said they would have it done by Aug 1 for $125k. Salesforce.com didn't take checks so apparently credit card was the only/best option at the time.

      Salesforce.com delivered a product on Aug 1. My Pillow says it wasn't done. That's the dispute. Salesforce.com still charged $125k, but they want $550k more for some reason??? One of the many things not addressed in the article is the contract between Salesforce.com and My Pillow on what Salesforce.com has to deliver. Why did My Pillow think it wasn't complete? If those requirements were outlined in the contract, then Salesforce.com is at fault. Who cares what AMEX will or will not refund. Salesforce.com would be in breach of contract...and I think that is case here, unless My Pillow is stupid and didn't put specifics in the contract.

    5. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm hoping for hot 3-way BARELY-legal action!

      FTFY

    6. Re:What? by BitZtream · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This sort of contract dispute is something I deal with daily. Not in that I deal with disputes, but I'm continually trying to teach my management how to write a contract that is actually enforcable.

      IF (big if) the contract is worded as "tracking effectiveness of every single 15-30sec tv advertisement" then both sides failed.

      That sort of statement is why this situations happen. MyPillow.com told salesforce.com thats what they wanted. Salesforce says 'okay' because they can do that. MyPillow.com sees the final results and then only at the moment do both of them start to realize that they have TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ideas about what that statement actually means.

      Then you end up in court while a judge sits there and thinks 'both of you are fucking idiots for being so vague' then eventually figures out which one of them is the bigger douche and makes a decision.

      Theoretical Example:

      MyPillow.com was expecting to know exactly how many sales came from each advertisement right down to which ad made which person (by name) buy a pillow from them. This is certainly doable from a technical stand point.

      Salesforce.com was thinking that an average based on industry standard formula that they've been using for years based on Neilson ratings was what MyPillow.com was expecting, as it is technically correct as well.

      When salesforce gives mypillow some aggregate averaged/projected data, and not a break down of customer names related to commercial airings ... then shit starts to hit the fan and both sides start talking about not paying. Neither side was technically 'wrong', but both of them clearly didn't do their due diligence did they? In this particular scenario, Salesforce would likely win as well because it DOES meet that CONTRACT REQUIREMENTS to the letter, unless the judge decides that salesforce, having done this many times before, should have known better and in their roles as consultants they were legally obligated to inform them of the potential confusion, so maybe not!

      You can rest assured that the contract's specifications are so vague that this cause is not going to be an overnight thing.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    7. Re:What? by Miamicanes · · Score: 5, Informative

      The real story here is that American Express, unlike Visa and Mastercard, rarely -- if ever -- sides with a cardholder over a merchant, even in situations where it's blatantly obvious that a charge is wrong. It's how they're able to get merchants to accept higher swipe fees and transaction charges.

      For the most part, if a cardholder files a chargeback with Mastercard or Visa that looks even slightly reasonable, they'll freeze the funds from the merchant account within a matter of minutes. They might not issue the refund to the cardholder immediately while they're investigating if there's a dispute, but the burden at that point is overwhelmingly on the merchant to prove the charge was legitimate and correct. And if there's still any doubt, Mastercard or Visa will issue the refund, furnish documentation to the merchant, and tell them to sue you in small claims court if they think payment is owed.

      In stark contrast, American Express will demand copies of the receipt from YOU (the customer), demand nothing from the merchant until they're 100% satisfied, and will still probably side with the merchant absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

      In my life, I've had two chargeback disputes with Amex... and lost both. One was careless stupidity on my part (though still blatantly wrong), the other was Amex showing just how anti-cardholder they really are.

      The first time it happened (circa 2000), the clerk accidentally hit '0' twice when entering the amount into the credit card terminal, and turned my $13.90 purchase into a $139.00 purchase. I had a receipt showing that the price was ~$13.25 with ~$0.65 in sales tax, but because I didn't notice until a month later & signed the receipt, Amex refused to budge. When I challenged American Express to have the merchant produce anything resembling an itemized receipt showing PRECISELY $139.00 in purchases with a timestamp within an hour of my alleged $139.00 purchase, they refused. As far as they were concerned, all that mattered was the 2x4 inch nearly-illegible receipt printed by the credit card terminal with something that resembled a blue smudge of a signature on it that I admitted to having (in addition to the itemized receipt for 1/10 the amount). I cancelled my card over it in rage, and refused to do business with them for about 10 years.

      Fast forward a decade. My employer required me to get an Amex corporate card as a condition of getting reimbursed on business trips. One morning, the cashier at a Waffle House ran the card through, then somehow screwed up the machine between the moment the charge went through and the moment the printer produced the receipt. She insisted that the charge didn't go through. I argued with her for 3 minutes (I heard the printer start, before the power cord short or whatever rebooted it), then gave in because I didn't have much of a choice. Sure enough, I got charged twice, about 3 minutes apart, for the same amount. This time, I was sure Amex would take my side, because the restaurant obviously didn't have a signed receipt from me for the first one, and there was no sane reason why somebody would have two ~$6.00 charges approximately 3 minutes apart. Goddamn if they didn't do it to me again, and refused to reverse the first charge. Their official excuse? I didn't have an unsigned copy of the first receipt. What. The. FUCK. That really, REALLY pissed me off. Yeah, my boss signed off on the override and told me it wasn't worth fighting with them over $6, but it was the moral principle of it.

      So, if you're an AMEX cardholder, be warned: if anything goes wrong, American Express WILL NOT take your side. In fact, they won't necessarily even lift a finger to make the merchant defend the charge. They'll press YOU for receipts, and will disqualify your chargeback on the slightest technicality, but will let the merchant get away with almost anything short of blatant, systematic intentional fraud.

  2. Miles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm sure the employee wanted the miles.

  3. My prediction of who will win this by Curate · · Score: 5, Funny

    The lawyers.

  4. Re:$125K 'personal' limit by Bigby · · Score: 5, Funny

    $125,000.00; What's your number?

  5. Why? Easy! by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and why the employee was naive enough to hand it over.

    For the same reason I'd do the same, in a frickin' heartbeat - $2500 in rewards dollars (and AmEx gives "real" dollars creditable to your account; not "miles", not "bux", not "flooz"). And in general, legit companies not on the brink of bankruptcy don't usually flake on their bills. Though sometimes... They do.

    It does surprise me that AmEx wouldn't reverse the charge, though - They have one of the most consumer-friendly (and practically merchant-hostile) dispute policies out there. You ask, they reverse it and ask questions later, with the burden of proof on the merchant.