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The New AI: Where Neuroscience and Artificial Intelligence Meet

An anonymous reader writes "We're seeing a new revolution in artificial intelligence known as deep learning: algorithms modeled after the brain have made amazing strides and have been consistently winning both industrial and academic data competitions with minimal effort. 'Basically, it involves building neural networks — networks that mimic the behavior of the human brain. Much like the brain, these multi-layered computer networks can gather information and react to it. They can build up an understanding of what objects look or sound like. In an effort to recreate human vision, for example, you might build a basic layer of artificial neurons that can detect simple things like the edges of a particular shape. The next layer could then piece together these edges to identify the larger shape, and then the shapes could be strung together to understand an object. The key here is that the software does all this on its own — a big advantage over older AI models, which required engineers to massage the visual or auditory data so that it could be digested by the machine-learning algorithm.' Are we ready to blur the line between hardware and wetware?"

27 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are we ready to blur the line between hardware and wetware?

    No. You can't ask that every time you find a slightly better algorithm. Ask it when you think you understand how the mind works.

  2. fly brains by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are we ready to blur the line between hardware and wetware?

    We can now almost convincingly partially recreate the wetware functions of Drosophila melanogaster. Whether we're *ready* for this is another question; as is whether this is what folks have in mind by "AI."

    1. Re:fly brains by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I say all of the following as a big fan of AI research. I just think we need to drop the rhetoric that we're somehow recreating brains -- why do we feel the need to claim that intelligent machines would need to be similar to or work like real brains?

      Anyhow...

      We can now almost convincingly partially recreate the wetware functions of Drosophila melanogaster.

      Interesting wording. Let's take this apart:

      • now: the present
      • almost convincingly: not really "convincingly" then, right? since "convincingly" isn't really a partial thing -- evidence is usually enough to "convince" you or not, if I say study data "almost convinced me," I usually mean it had argument and fluff that made it appear to be good but it turned out to be crap in the end
      • partially recreate: yeah, it's pretty "partial," and you have to read "recreate" as something more like "make a very inexact blackbox model that probably doesn't work at all the same but maybe outputs a few things in a similar fashion"
      • functions: this word is chosen wisely, since the "neural net" models are really just algorithms, i.e., functions, which probably don't act anything like real "neurons" in the real world at all

      In sum, we have a few algorithms that seem to take input and produce some usable output in a manner very vaguely like a few things that we've observed in the brains of fruit flies. Claiming that this at all "recreates" the "wetware" implies that we understand a lot more about brain function and that our algorithms ("artificial neurons"? hardly) are a lot more advanced and subtle than they are.

    2. Re:fly brains by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, I intended my very weasel-worded phrase to convey that even our present ability to "understand" Drosophila melanogaster is rather shallow and shaky --- your analysis of my words covers what I meant to include pretty well.

      why do we feel the need to claim that intelligent machines would need to be similar to or work like real brains?

      I don't think we do. In fact, machines acting in utterly un-brainlike manners are extremely useful to me *today* --- when I want human-style brain functions, I've already got one of those installed in my head; computers are great for doing all the other tasks. However, making machines that work like brains might be the only way to understand how our own brains work --- a separate but also interesting task from making machines more useful at doing "intelligent" work in un-brainlike manners.

    3. Re:fly brains by White+Flame · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Biological neurons are far more complex than ANN neurons. At this point it's unknown if we can make up for that lack of dynamic state by using a larger ANN, or by increasing the per-neuron complexity to try to match the biological counterpart. I do have my doubts about the former, but that doubt is merely intuition, not science. We simply don't know yet.

      as is whether this is what folks have in mind by "AI."

      In my own studies, this isn't the branch of AI I'm particularly interested in. I don't care about artificial life, or structures based around the limitations of the biological brain. I'd love to have a system with perfect recall, could converse about its knowledge and thought processes such that conversational feedback would have immediate application without lengthy retraining, and could tirelessly and meticulously follow instructions given in natural language.

      I don't see modeling biological brains as being a workable approach to that view of AI, except maybe the "tirelessly" part. I'm more interested in cognitive meta-models of intelligence itself than the substrate on which currently known knowledge happens to reside.

    4. Re:fly brains by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I suppose some of the urge to "anthropomorphize" AIs comes from the lack of precedent, and even understanding of what is possible, outside of the two established categories of "calculating machine" and "biological brain." Some tasks and approaches are "obviously computery": if you need to sort a list of a trillion numbers, that's clearly a job for an old-fashioned computer with a sort algorithm. On the other hand, other tasks seem very "human": say, having a discussion about art and religion. There is some range of "animal" tasks in-between, like image recognition and navigating through complex 3D environments. But we have no analogous mental category to non-biological "intelligent" systems --- so we think of them in terms of replicating and even being biological brains, without appropriate language for other possibilities.

  3. Geoffrey Hinton by IntentionalStance · · Score: 4, Informative
    Is referenced in the article as the father of neural networks.

    He has a course on them at coursera that is pretty good.

    https://www.coursera.org/course/neuralnets

    1. Re:Geoffrey Hinton by Baldrson · · Score: 4, Informative
      I've had "Talking Nets: An Oral History of Neural Networks" for several weeks on interlibrary loan. It interviews 17 "fathers of neural nets" (including Hinton) and it isn't even a complete set of said "fathers".

      Look, this stuff goes back a long ways and has had some hiccups along the way, like the twenty year period it was treated with little more respect by the scientific establishment than has cold fusion for the last twenty years. There are plenty of heroics to go around.

      I can recommend the book highly.

  4. Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Dorianny · · Score: 5, Informative

    Drosophila melanogaster is commonly known as the fruit fly. Its brain has about 100,000 neurons. The human brain avarages 85,000,000,000.

    1. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do you really think AI will not follow a moore type law? It will probably be even more aggressive.

      I personally expect Moore's Law to set a lower bound on the time needed for advancement. Doubling every 18-24 months means 20-30 years to get human-sized big ol' clusters of neurons. However, there's also so much work to do on understanding the specifics of how to get particular results (e.g. language and "symbolic thought") instead of just gigantic twitching masses of incoherent craziness.

      In order to try out ideas and test hypotheses, you really need to be able to run a whole bunch of human-brain-scale simulators at far higher speed than the human brain (learning a language takes a couple years for a developing human brain, and you're very unlikely to get this "right" with only one or two tries). I think once we have 10^3 - 10^6 times more "raw neuron simulation" processing power than a single human brain (so another 10 to 40 years after the 20-30 years for single-brain neuron simulations), then we'll be able to crank out simulations of the "hard stuff" fast enough to make rapid progress on the high-level issues. Of course, this means once you do have a couple "breakthroughs" in generating self-aware, learning, human-language-understanding machines, you're very suddenly dropped into having far-exceeding-human artificial intelligences, without so much of a slow progression through "retarded chimpanzee" stages first.

    2. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Funny

      " However, there's also so much work to do on understanding the specifics of how to get particular results (e.g. language and "symbolic thought") instead of just gigantic twitching masses of incoherent craziness."

      In the meantime we'll just have to settle for modeling a teenager.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    3. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What precisely are those long-standing problems?

      I ask because I actually know people who are starting to demonstrate the rudiments of intelligence using simulations of ~100,000 neurons.

      Per upthread, that's a long way from a brain, and in fact we don't even know how all of the brain is wired, let alone how it works. But you might want to consider this and this and this.

      If they're attempting the impossible, you should let them know not to waste their money.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That presumes that the approach you take is going to be using the same kind of models you have now and just running them on bigger, faster hardware. If our models lead us to *understanding* of how brains work, we could get there a good deal faster and find that present day computers are plenty complex to handle cognition on a human-equivalent level.

      Take Google self-driving cars for example. Driving a car is definitely an AI task, and it can be handled by present day computers. It's a subset of the tasks humans can learn. Google didn't do it by modeling the part of your brain that drives a car. Hell, we don't even know what subset of our brain is sufficient to drive a car. They did it by understanding how to drive a car.

      What I'm proposing is that human-level AI won't be created first by modeling a whole brain. It will more likely be created by scientists by studying the brain come to understand what the big-picture behavior of brain subsystems and modeling those subsystems at a behavioral level rather than at a neural-network level.

    5. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Forget the long-standing problems that make this approach a non-starter.

      Did you actually watch IBM's "Watson" beat the snot out of the best Jepordy champions humanity could muster? I can't believe that anyone who knows anything about computers and AI is not blown away by Watson's demonstration, I know I was. My significant other who has a phd in marketing just shrugged and said "it's looking up the answers on the internet, so what?". In other words if your not impressed by Watson's performance, it's because you have no idea how difficult the problem is.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    6. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by narcc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm saying that it's unsolved (er, well, I thought that would go without saying!) and that, at present, it and similar problems strongly suggest that this type of approach is fundamentally flawed.

      My main point was that it's unreasonable to believe that those problems will be solved by magic and wishful thinking. This cargo-cult approach to AI purports to do just that. (If we just ignore the problems hard enough, technology will deliver us!)

    7. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As I agree in another branch of this thread, we probably will find "non-brainlike" methods to generate all sorts of "intelligent" behavior, continuing the same type of progress (not particularly worrying about biologically accurate brain models) that gives us self-driving cars. On the other hand, it's a separate worthwhile field of study to learn how *our* brains work, through models that capture key features of biological brains.

      If our models lead us to *understanding* of how brains work, we could get there a good deal faster and find that present day computers are plenty complex to handle cognition on a human-equivalent level.

      Maybe; maybe not. Our understanding might well *not* allow much brain function (above the Drosophila level, which is about appropriate for a moderate sized supercomputer today) to be vastly simplified for lesser computing resources --- maybe you do *need* zillions of complexly interlinked neurons to see more interesting higher level behaviors (in a brain-like manner, not by creating non-brainlike intelligences like the self-driving car that have similar "skills"). The brain may not neatly "factor" into simple-to-computationally-model "subsystems". If you look at, e.g., chemical pathway maps for how a cell functions, everything is tangled together with everything else --- biological systems often evolve "spaghetti code" solutions to problems, without the neatly defined boundaries and modularity that a "top down" systems designer would impose.

    8. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by nebosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your assertion that a 'cargo cult' approach cannot achieve a given effect contains the assumption that it is necessary to first develop an accurate understanding of why and how a potential mechanism works before it can be implemented.

      All crop development prior to Mendel or Darwin, for example, was essentially cargo cult directed evolution--and yet it resulted in incredible development (e.g., corn from teocinte).

      More generally, achievement of an effect isn't just possible without understanding, it's possible without intent. Predators culling prey populations such that frequency of undesirable alleles within the prey population is minimized is an entirely unintentional effect. "Cargo Cult" solutions are simply scenarios where you have intent but lack understanding (which again does not mean that the solution will necessarily be ineffective).

      With respect to the neuron modeling approach, it actually builds on lots of earlier successful work in computer science with respect to emergent properties of systems of finite automata. Essentially the approach follows the sequence:

      1. 1) Observe a complex phenomenon that you do not understand and further do not understand how to analyze in its entirety.
      2. 2) Identify discrete components of the phenomenon that you can analyze (e.g., neurons)
      3. 3) Model those components as finite automata and tweak the number of components in the model, as well as the configuration of the interaction topology and properties of individual automata until you recreate the original phenomenon (or alternatively other unexpected but interesting phenomena) (e.g., play with simulated neural nets)
      4. 4) Use the resulting working model to help you identify and analyze attributes of the system and their effect on the emergent property of interest, which leads to further understanding of the phenomenon (already has happened in fields like image recognition)

      Note that in the above approach you not only recreate something before you understand it or how it works--you do so specifically to gain a better understanding of how it works. This is certainly a realistic scenario of how strong AI could be developed via "cargo cult" methodology. It is entirely possible that creating synthetic intelligence will be a step towards the understanding intelligence as opposed to an outcome of that understanding.

    9. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Vintermann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All crop development prior to Mendel or Darwin, for example, was essentially cargo cult

      No, that's not cargo cult. Cargo cult is when you imitate the actions of someone for whom those actions have meaning, without understanding their meaning yourself (or totally misunderstanding their meaning). Crop development was haphazardly experimental, not cargo cult.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  5. Its not winning the Hutter Prize by Baldrson · · Score: 3, Informative
    The claim that "winning both industrial and academic data competitions with minimal effort" might be more impressive if it included the only provably rigorous test of general intelligence:

    The Hutter Prize for Lossless Compression of Human Knowledge

    The last time anyone improved on that benchmark was 2009.

  6. Some questions for Andrew Ng by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Andrew Ng is a brilliant teacher who I respect, but I have questions:

    1) What is the constructive definition of intelligence? As in, "it's composed of these pieces connected this way" such that the pieces themselves can be further described. Sort of like describing a car as "wheels, body, frame, motor", each of which can be further described. (The Turing Test doesn't count, as it's not constructive.)

    2) There are over 180 different types of artificial neurons. Which are you using, and what reasoning implies that your choice is correct and all the others are not?

    3) Neural nets in the brain have more back-propagation connections than forward. Do your neural nets have this feature? If not, why not?

    4) Neural nets typically have input-layers, hidden-layers, output layers - and indeed, the image in the article implies this architecture. What line of reasoning indicates the correct number of layers to use, and the correct number of nodes to use in each layer? Does this method of reasoning eliminate other choices?

    5) Your neural nets have an implicit ordering of input => hidden => output, while the brain has both input and output on one side (ie - both the afferent and efferent neuron enter the brain at the same level, and are both processed in a tree-like fashion). How do you account for this discrepancy? What was the logical argument that led you to depart from the brain's chosen architecture?

    Artificial intelligence is 50 years away, and it's been that way for the last 50 years. No one can do proper research or development until there is a constructive definition of what intelligence actually is. Start there, and the rest will fall into place.

    1. Re:Some questions for Andrew Ng by White+Flame · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd mod you up if I could, but I think I can help out with a few points instead:

      1) There is no concrete constructive definition of intelligence yet, and I think anybody at a higher level in the field knows that. Establishing that definition is a recognized part of AI research. Intelligence is still recognized comparatively, usually related to something like the capability to resolve difficult or ambiguous problems with similar or greater effect than humans, or can learn and react to dynamic environmental situations to similar effect as other living things. Once we've created something that works and that we can tangibly study, we can begin to come up with real workable definitions of intelligence that represent both the technological and biological instances of recognized intelligence.

      4) Modern ANN research sometimes includes altering the morphology of the network as part of training, not just altering the coefficients. I would hope something like that is in effect here.

    2. Re:Some questions for Andrew Ng by ChronoFish · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "..No one can do proper research or development until there is a constructive definition of what intelligence actually is..."

      That's a fool's errand. The goal of the developer should be to build a system that accomplishes tasks and is able to auto-improve the speed of accomplishing repetitive tasks with minimal (no) human intervention.

      The goal of the philosopher is to lay out what intelligence "is". These tracks should be run in parallel and the progress of one should have little-to-no impact on the progress of the other.

      -CF

  7. Yes--But the Trend is Toward Biological Realism by Slicker · · Score: 5, Informative

    Neural Net's were traditionally based off old Hodgkins and Huxley models and then twisted for direct application for specific objectives, such as stock market prediction. In the process they veered from a only very vague notion of real neurons to something increasingly fictitious.

    Hopefully, the AI world is on the edge of moving away from continuously beating their heads against the same brick walls in the same ways while giving themselves pats on the heads. Hopefully, we realize that human-like intelligence is not a logic engine and that conventional neural nets are not biologically valid and posses numerous fundamental flaws.

    Rather--a neurons draws new correlating axons to itself when it cannot reach threshold (-55mv from a resting state of -70mv) and weakens and destroys them when over threshold. In living systems, neural potential is almost always very close to threshold--it bounces a tiny bit over and under. Furthermore, inhibitory connections are also drawn in from non-correlating axons. For example, if two neural pathways always excite when the other does not, then each will come to inhibit the other. This enables contexts to shut off irrelevant possible perceptions, e.g. If you are in the house, you are not going to get rained on. More likely, somebody is squirting you with a squirt gun.

    Also--a neuron perpetually excited for too long shuts itself off for a while. We love a good song but hearing it too often makes us sick of it, at least for a while.. like Michael Jackson in the late 1980's.

    And very importantly--signal streams that dissappear but recur after increasing time lapses stay potentiated longer.. their potentiation dissipates slower. After 5 pulses with a pause between a new receptor is brought in from the same axon as an existing one. This causes slower dissipation. It will happen again after another 5 pulses repeatedly, except that the time lapse between them must be increased. It falls in line with the scale found on the Wikipedia page for Graduated Interval Recall--exponentially increasing time lapses 5 times, each... take a look at it. Do the math. It matches what is seen in biology, even though this scale was developed in the 1920's.

    I have a C++ neural modal that does this. I am mostly done also with a Javascript modal (employing techniques for vastly better performance), using Nodejs.

    1. Re:Yes--But the Trend is Toward Biological Realism by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I could give a number of clearly unsubstantiated, but seemingly reasonable answers here.

      1) the assertion that because living neurons have deficits compared against an arbitrary and artificial standard of efficiency (it takes a whole 500ms for a neuron to cycle?! My diamond based crystal oscillator can drive 3 orders of magnitude faster!, et al.)that they are "faulted" is not substantiated: as pointed out earlier in the thread, no high level intelligence built using said "superior" crystal oscillators exists. Thus the "superior" offering is actually the inferior offering when researching an emergent phenomenon.

      2) artificially excluding these principles (signal crosstalk, propogation delays, potentiation thresholds of organic systems, et al) completely *IGNORES* scientifically verified features of complex cognitative behaviors, like the role of mylein, and the mechanisms behind dentrite migration/culling.

      In other words, asserting something foolish like "organic neurons are bulky, slow, and have a host of computationally costly habbits" wit the intent that "this makes them undesirable as a model for emergent high level intelligence" ignores a lot of verified information in biology, that shows that these "bad" behaviors directly contribute to intelligent behaviors.

      Did you know that signal DELAY is essential in organic brains? That whole hosts of disorders with debilitating effects come from signals arriving too early? Did you stop to consider that thse faults may actually be features that are essential?

      If you don't accurately model the biological reference sample, how can you riggorously identify which is which?

      We have a sample implementation, with features we find dubious. Only buy building a faithful simulation that works, then experimentally removing the modeled faults do we really systematically break down the real requirements for self directed intelligences.

      That is why modeling accurate neurons that faithfully smulate organic behavior is called for, and desirable. At least for now.

  8. Re:The stank of (poorly) attempted hype by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For such a blatant, transparent, promotional, hyperbolic "story", I wish soulskill would at least throw in a sarcastic jab or two to balance out the stench a bit.

    Agreed. This story smells of the usual Google hype.

    I think it's great that there is more research in this area, but "The Man Behind the Google Brain: Andrew Ng and the Quest for the New AI" suggests that Google is at the forefront of this stuff. They're not. Look at the Successes in Pattern Recognition Contests since 2009. None of Ng, Stanford, Google or Silicon Valley are even mentioned. Google's greatest ability is in generating hype. It seems to be the stock-in-trade of much of Silicon Valley. Don't take it too seriously.

    Generating this type of hype for your company is an art. I use to work for a small company run by a guy who was a wiz at it. What you have to understand is that reporters are always looking for stories, and this sort of spoon fed stuff is easy to write. Forget about "Wired". The guy I knew could usually get an article in NYT or WSJ in a day or two.

  9. Neural networks revisited by Hentes · · Score: 4, Informative

    Neural networks are certainly not new, or groundbreaking. We already know their strengths and weaknesses, and they aren't a universal solution to every AI problem.
    First of all, while they have been inspired by the brain, they don't "mimic" it. Neural networks are based on some neurons having negative weights, reversing the polarity of the signal, which doesn't happen in the brain. They are also linear, which bears similarities to some simple parts of the brain, but are very far from modeling its complex nonlinear processing. Neural networks are useful AI tools, but aren't brain models.
    Second neural networks are only good at things when they have to immediately react to an input. Originally, neural networks didn't have memory, and while it's possible to add it, it doesn't fit right into the system and is hard to work with. While neural networks make good reflex machines, even simple stateful tasks like a linear or cyclic multi-step motion are nontrivial to implement in them. Which is why they are most effective in combination with other methods, instead of declared a universal solution.

  10. Re:Some questions for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Do you consider proper definitions necessary for the advancement of mathematics?

    Take, for example, the [mathematics] definition of "group". It's a constructive definition, composed of parts which can be further described by *their* parts. Knowing the definition of a group, I can test if something is a group, I can construct a group from basic elements, and I can modify a non-group so that it becomes a group. I can use a group as a basis to construct objects of more general interest.

    Are you suggesting that mathematics should proceed and be developed... without proper definitions?

    That a science - any science - can proceed without such a firm basis is an interesting position. Should other areas of science be developed without proper definitions? How about psychology (no proper definition of clinical ailments)? Medicine? Physics?

    I'd be interested to hear your views on other sciences. Or if not, why then is AI is different from other sciences?

    The view of mathematics as proceeding from clear-cut definitions and axioms is really an artifact of the way we teach it. Over time theorems can become definitions, and we may choose definitions so as to make certain theorems that ought to be true, true.

    If you want an example, look at how much real analysis was going on before we had a proper definition of continuity.

    An obsession with rigorous definitions right at the start of a field serves only to force our intuitions to be more specific than they are, with no understanding of the
    consequences.