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The New AI: Where Neuroscience and Artificial Intelligence Meet

An anonymous reader writes "We're seeing a new revolution in artificial intelligence known as deep learning: algorithms modeled after the brain have made amazing strides and have been consistently winning both industrial and academic data competitions with minimal effort. 'Basically, it involves building neural networks — networks that mimic the behavior of the human brain. Much like the brain, these multi-layered computer networks can gather information and react to it. They can build up an understanding of what objects look or sound like. In an effort to recreate human vision, for example, you might build a basic layer of artificial neurons that can detect simple things like the edges of a particular shape. The next layer could then piece together these edges to identify the larger shape, and then the shapes could be strung together to understand an object. The key here is that the software does all this on its own — a big advantage over older AI models, which required engineers to massage the visual or auditory data so that it could be digested by the machine-learning algorithm.' Are we ready to blur the line between hardware and wetware?"

15 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are we ready to blur the line between hardware and wetware?

    No. You can't ask that every time you find a slightly better algorithm. Ask it when you think you understand how the mind works.

  2. Geoffrey Hinton by IntentionalStance · · Score: 4, Informative
    Is referenced in the article as the father of neural networks.

    He has a course on them at coursera that is pretty good.

    https://www.coursera.org/course/neuralnets

    1. Re:Geoffrey Hinton by Baldrson · · Score: 4, Informative
      I've had "Talking Nets: An Oral History of Neural Networks" for several weeks on interlibrary loan. It interviews 17 "fathers of neural nets" (including Hinton) and it isn't even a complete set of said "fathers".

      Look, this stuff goes back a long ways and has had some hiccups along the way, like the twenty year period it was treated with little more respect by the scientific establishment than has cold fusion for the last twenty years. There are plenty of heroics to go around.

      I can recommend the book highly.

  3. Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Dorianny · · Score: 5, Informative

    Drosophila melanogaster is commonly known as the fruit fly. Its brain has about 100,000 neurons. The human brain avarages 85,000,000,000.

    1. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Funny

      " However, there's also so much work to do on understanding the specifics of how to get particular results (e.g. language and "symbolic thought") instead of just gigantic twitching masses of incoherent craziness."

      In the meantime we'll just have to settle for modeling a teenager.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    2. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What precisely are those long-standing problems?

      I ask because I actually know people who are starting to demonstrate the rudiments of intelligence using simulations of ~100,000 neurons.

      Per upthread, that's a long way from a brain, and in fact we don't even know how all of the brain is wired, let alone how it works. But you might want to consider this and this and this.

      If they're attempting the impossible, you should let them know not to waste their money.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:Saving everyone a few seconds on wiki by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That presumes that the approach you take is going to be using the same kind of models you have now and just running them on bigger, faster hardware. If our models lead us to *understanding* of how brains work, we could get there a good deal faster and find that present day computers are plenty complex to handle cognition on a human-equivalent level.

      Take Google self-driving cars for example. Driving a car is definitely an AI task, and it can be handled by present day computers. It's a subset of the tasks humans can learn. Google didn't do it by modeling the part of your brain that drives a car. Hell, we don't even know what subset of our brain is sufficient to drive a car. They did it by understanding how to drive a car.

      What I'm proposing is that human-level AI won't be created first by modeling a whole brain. It will more likely be created by scientists by studying the brain come to understand what the big-picture behavior of brain subsystems and modeling those subsystems at a behavioral level rather than at a neural-network level.

  4. Some questions for Andrew Ng by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Andrew Ng is a brilliant teacher who I respect, but I have questions:

    1) What is the constructive definition of intelligence? As in, "it's composed of these pieces connected this way" such that the pieces themselves can be further described. Sort of like describing a car as "wheels, body, frame, motor", each of which can be further described. (The Turing Test doesn't count, as it's not constructive.)

    2) There are over 180 different types of artificial neurons. Which are you using, and what reasoning implies that your choice is correct and all the others are not?

    3) Neural nets in the brain have more back-propagation connections than forward. Do your neural nets have this feature? If not, why not?

    4) Neural nets typically have input-layers, hidden-layers, output layers - and indeed, the image in the article implies this architecture. What line of reasoning indicates the correct number of layers to use, and the correct number of nodes to use in each layer? Does this method of reasoning eliminate other choices?

    5) Your neural nets have an implicit ordering of input => hidden => output, while the brain has both input and output on one side (ie - both the afferent and efferent neuron enter the brain at the same level, and are both processed in a tree-like fashion). How do you account for this discrepancy? What was the logical argument that led you to depart from the brain's chosen architecture?

    Artificial intelligence is 50 years away, and it's been that way for the last 50 years. No one can do proper research or development until there is a constructive definition of what intelligence actually is. Start there, and the rest will fall into place.

    1. Re:Some questions for Andrew Ng by White+Flame · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd mod you up if I could, but I think I can help out with a few points instead:

      1) There is no concrete constructive definition of intelligence yet, and I think anybody at a higher level in the field knows that. Establishing that definition is a recognized part of AI research. Intelligence is still recognized comparatively, usually related to something like the capability to resolve difficult or ambiguous problems with similar or greater effect than humans, or can learn and react to dynamic environmental situations to similar effect as other living things. Once we've created something that works and that we can tangibly study, we can begin to come up with real workable definitions of intelligence that represent both the technological and biological instances of recognized intelligence.

      4) Modern ANN research sometimes includes altering the morphology of the network as part of training, not just altering the coefficients. I would hope something like that is in effect here.

    2. Re:Some questions for Andrew Ng by ChronoFish · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "..No one can do proper research or development until there is a constructive definition of what intelligence actually is..."

      That's a fool's errand. The goal of the developer should be to build a system that accomplishes tasks and is able to auto-improve the speed of accomplishing repetitive tasks with minimal (no) human intervention.

      The goal of the philosopher is to lay out what intelligence "is". These tracks should be run in parallel and the progress of one should have little-to-no impact on the progress of the other.

      -CF

  5. Yes--But the Trend is Toward Biological Realism by Slicker · · Score: 5, Informative

    Neural Net's were traditionally based off old Hodgkins and Huxley models and then twisted for direct application for specific objectives, such as stock market prediction. In the process they veered from a only very vague notion of real neurons to something increasingly fictitious.

    Hopefully, the AI world is on the edge of moving away from continuously beating their heads against the same brick walls in the same ways while giving themselves pats on the heads. Hopefully, we realize that human-like intelligence is not a logic engine and that conventional neural nets are not biologically valid and posses numerous fundamental flaws.

    Rather--a neurons draws new correlating axons to itself when it cannot reach threshold (-55mv from a resting state of -70mv) and weakens and destroys them when over threshold. In living systems, neural potential is almost always very close to threshold--it bounces a tiny bit over and under. Furthermore, inhibitory connections are also drawn in from non-correlating axons. For example, if two neural pathways always excite when the other does not, then each will come to inhibit the other. This enables contexts to shut off irrelevant possible perceptions, e.g. If you are in the house, you are not going to get rained on. More likely, somebody is squirting you with a squirt gun.

    Also--a neuron perpetually excited for too long shuts itself off for a while. We love a good song but hearing it too often makes us sick of it, at least for a while.. like Michael Jackson in the late 1980's.

    And very importantly--signal streams that dissappear but recur after increasing time lapses stay potentiated longer.. their potentiation dissipates slower. After 5 pulses with a pause between a new receptor is brought in from the same axon as an existing one. This causes slower dissipation. It will happen again after another 5 pulses repeatedly, except that the time lapse between them must be increased. It falls in line with the scale found on the Wikipedia page for Graduated Interval Recall--exponentially increasing time lapses 5 times, each... take a look at it. Do the math. It matches what is seen in biology, even though this scale was developed in the 1920's.

    I have a C++ neural modal that does this. I am mostly done also with a Javascript modal (employing techniques for vastly better performance), using Nodejs.

    1. Re:Yes--But the Trend is Toward Biological Realism by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I could give a number of clearly unsubstantiated, but seemingly reasonable answers here.

      1) the assertion that because living neurons have deficits compared against an arbitrary and artificial standard of efficiency (it takes a whole 500ms for a neuron to cycle?! My diamond based crystal oscillator can drive 3 orders of magnitude faster!, et al.)that they are "faulted" is not substantiated: as pointed out earlier in the thread, no high level intelligence built using said "superior" crystal oscillators exists. Thus the "superior" offering is actually the inferior offering when researching an emergent phenomenon.

      2) artificially excluding these principles (signal crosstalk, propogation delays, potentiation thresholds of organic systems, et al) completely *IGNORES* scientifically verified features of complex cognitative behaviors, like the role of mylein, and the mechanisms behind dentrite migration/culling.

      In other words, asserting something foolish like "organic neurons are bulky, slow, and have a host of computationally costly habbits" wit the intent that "this makes them undesirable as a model for emergent high level intelligence" ignores a lot of verified information in biology, that shows that these "bad" behaviors directly contribute to intelligent behaviors.

      Did you know that signal DELAY is essential in organic brains? That whole hosts of disorders with debilitating effects come from signals arriving too early? Did you stop to consider that thse faults may actually be features that are essential?

      If you don't accurately model the biological reference sample, how can you riggorously identify which is which?

      We have a sample implementation, with features we find dubious. Only buy building a faithful simulation that works, then experimentally removing the modeled faults do we really systematically break down the real requirements for self directed intelligences.

      That is why modeling accurate neurons that faithfully smulate organic behavior is called for, and desirable. At least for now.

  6. Re:The stank of (poorly) attempted hype by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For such a blatant, transparent, promotional, hyperbolic "story", I wish soulskill would at least throw in a sarcastic jab or two to balance out the stench a bit.

    Agreed. This story smells of the usual Google hype.

    I think it's great that there is more research in this area, but "The Man Behind the Google Brain: Andrew Ng and the Quest for the New AI" suggests that Google is at the forefront of this stuff. They're not. Look at the Successes in Pattern Recognition Contests since 2009. None of Ng, Stanford, Google or Silicon Valley are even mentioned. Google's greatest ability is in generating hype. It seems to be the stock-in-trade of much of Silicon Valley. Don't take it too seriously.

    Generating this type of hype for your company is an art. I use to work for a small company run by a guy who was a wiz at it. What you have to understand is that reporters are always looking for stories, and this sort of spoon fed stuff is easy to write. Forget about "Wired". The guy I knew could usually get an article in NYT or WSJ in a day or two.

  7. Neural networks revisited by Hentes · · Score: 4, Informative

    Neural networks are certainly not new, or groundbreaking. We already know their strengths and weaknesses, and they aren't a universal solution to every AI problem.
    First of all, while they have been inspired by the brain, they don't "mimic" it. Neural networks are based on some neurons having negative weights, reversing the polarity of the signal, which doesn't happen in the brain. They are also linear, which bears similarities to some simple parts of the brain, but are very far from modeling its complex nonlinear processing. Neural networks are useful AI tools, but aren't brain models.
    Second neural networks are only good at things when they have to immediately react to an input. Originally, neural networks didn't have memory, and while it's possible to add it, it doesn't fit right into the system and is hard to work with. While neural networks make good reflex machines, even simple stateful tasks like a linear or cyclic multi-step motion are nontrivial to implement in them. Which is why they are most effective in combination with other methods, instead of declared a universal solution.

  8. Re:fly brains by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I say all of the following as a big fan of AI research. I just think we need to drop the rhetoric that we're somehow recreating brains -- why do we feel the need to claim that intelligent machines would need to be similar to or work like real brains?

    Anyhow...

    We can now almost convincingly partially recreate the wetware functions of Drosophila melanogaster.

    Interesting wording. Let's take this apart:

    • now: the present
    • almost convincingly: not really "convincingly" then, right? since "convincingly" isn't really a partial thing -- evidence is usually enough to "convince" you or not, if I say study data "almost convinced me," I usually mean it had argument and fluff that made it appear to be good but it turned out to be crap in the end
    • partially recreate: yeah, it's pretty "partial," and you have to read "recreate" as something more like "make a very inexact blackbox model that probably doesn't work at all the same but maybe outputs a few things in a similar fashion"
    • functions: this word is chosen wisely, since the "neural net" models are really just algorithms, i.e., functions, which probably don't act anything like real "neurons" in the real world at all

    In sum, we have a few algorithms that seem to take input and produce some usable output in a manner very vaguely like a few things that we've observed in the brains of fruit flies. Claiming that this at all "recreates" the "wetware" implies that we understand a lot more about brain function and that our algorithms ("artificial neurons"? hardly) are a lot more advanced and subtle than they are.