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Charge Your Cellphone In 20 Seconds (Eventually)

New submitter GoJays writes "An 18-year-old from Saratoga, California has won an international science fair for creating an energy storage device that can be fully juiced in 20 to 30 seconds. The fast-charging device is a so-called supercapacitor, a gizmo that can pack a lot of energy into a tiny space, charges quickly and holds its charge for a long time. What's more, it can last for 10,000 charge-recharge cycles, compared with 1,000 cycles for conventional rechargeable batteries, according to the inventor Eesha Khare." This one in particular has been used so far only to power an LED, rather than a phone or laptop, but I hope in a few years near-instant charging of portable electronics will be the norm as supercapacitors grow more common.

58 of 295 comments (clear)

  1. supercapacitors are cool by jamesh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The one thing I like about supercapacitors (and non-super capacitors) is how quickly they can release all their energy. I can't wait to hold one up to my ear when it's embedded inside a device whose manufacture was outsourced to the lowest bidder!

    1. Re:supercapacitors are cool by pmontra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, creepy...
      Another problem is which wire you need to move all that energy into the capacitor in that little time. This applies both to the wire from the wall to the device and the one from the grid to the house (where I live residential contracts are usually limited to 3 kW). I didn't do the math but assuming it's not a problem for a cellphone it might be a problem for a charging a car fast. In a reverse-car analogy it's like having a 2 Mbit DSL to the Internet. Downloading a movie is going to take a long time a Gigabit home network won't help.

    2. Re:supercapacitors are cool by _xanthus_47 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I beg you! Please be merciful for the sarcasm impaired

    3. Re:supercapacitors are cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In a reverse-car analogy it's like having a 2 Mbit DSL to the Internet. Downloading a movie is going to take a long time a Gigabit home network won't help.

      We have overland lines a few hundred yards from our house, and there is a gas pipeline running right under the stables. It should be easy to recharge either an electric car or a natural gas powered one in the course of milliseconds.

      The problem are the taps. As a result, our AC is quite less dependable than the buzz of the overland lines, and we don't even have gas in the house, instead having to make do with (quite more expensive) oil heating.

      Maybe we should go for inductive car charging and park the car under the overland lines.

    4. Re:supercapacitors are cool by nzac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fuse would blow regardless of the power supply....

      You short a battery and it generally explodes as well. The advantage here is with the quick charge time you could get away with storing less energy in your phone.

    5. Re:supercapacitors are cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Drop a spanner on the poles of a truck battery, and the battery does not exactly explode (the poles may get damaged). But molten metal flying around is still not fun. The problem is not the capacitor, the problem is whatever may do the shortcircuiting.

    6. Re:supercapacitors are cool by thegarbz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sigh! Supercapacitors are inherently stable and generally won't explode unless you actively force them too (i.e. most things explode when you put 1kV up it's arse).
      High energy densities and high currents are emitted when shorted and you end up with maybe a spark. Quite a safe spark though given the pathetically small voltages they can store. The same can be said for non-super capacitors too. The only only ones which really let go with a bang are tantalum caps, and even they are quite stable run under their rated voltage.

      Sorry to drain the FUD out of your sarcastic post but with caps your biggest risk is electrolyte running down your ear.

    7. Re:supercapacitors are cool by pv2b · · Score: 5, Interesting

      To extend the reverse-car analogy, the correct analogy is the use case of wanting to transmit a large movie to a USB stick so you can watch it on your TV. Doesn't matter if you have the best-of-the-best USB stick and USB 3.0 in your computer. The bottleneck is still the internet connection. So what you do is that you set your computer to download that large file while you're out doing whatever it is you're doing all day, and copy it over to your USB stick quickly when you get home. (You could even conceivably automate this process or remote control it from your cell phone.) In this scenario, having USB 3.0 *will* help since it'll cut down on the time on getting the movie from your computer to the USB stick.

      Analogously, the way you'd do it for a residential charger, is that you'd have the power grid trickle charging a supercapacitor that you have at your home (ideally under some kind of control from the power company, so that they can manage the load on the electric grid) over the course of a few hours, so that when you need the power, you can just plug it in and almost instantly get your car charged up.

      Although while we're on the subject of analogies, a better reverse-car analogy would be that of a flush toilet, slowly building up a reservoir of water to then quickly release it when required.

    8. Re:supercapacitors are cool by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Even smarter, not one super capacitor but a whole series of them, which discharge into a low capacity rechargeable battery (that high output discharge will actually extend the life of the battery as it would prevent crystalline build up), in sequence to provide smooth delivery of power. The series of small super capacitors can still be charged at high speed and via a more regular rechargeable battery provide smooth delivery of current.

      --
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    9. Re:supercapacitors are cool by ultranova · · Score: 2

      High energy densities and high currents are emitted when shorted and you end up with maybe a spark. Quite a safe spark though given the pathetically small voltages they can store.

      Voltage is irrelevant. If a short releases the stored energy, all of it is converted into heat, since it has nowhere else to go. If stored energy is significant, and is released in a short enough time, this results in an explosion.

      So, the safety-relevant questions are: how much energy can a capacitor store, and how much currency can it supply?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:supercapacitors are cool by Eivind · · Score: 2

      If they are to be useful, they need to store substantial amounts of energy. A Samsung SIV has a 2600 mAh at 3.7V -- anything that's substantially less for the same size ain't gonna cut it, because even with fast charging, you aren't gonna want to charge ten times a day.

      10 Watt-hours isn't a HUGE energy-amount, but it's not trivial either. Charging in 20 seconds means supplying the device with about 2 kilowatts of power. A catastrophic short-circuit discharge that drains the supercap in a second while melting large parts of the phone delivers about 40 kilowatts of heat over a period of one second.

      This ain't a "small harmless spark".

      Then again, supercaps cannot -actually- replace batteries, because their energy-storage sucks even more than batteries do, and batteries are already plenty sucky. (a litre of diesel is 10 Kwh....)

    11. Re:supercapacitors are cool by fazig · · Score: 2

      Capacitors much like batteries don't store "voltage" they store electrical charge (basically electrons), ampere seconds.
      Regular cell phone batteries have a charge of about 2Ah, assuming this super-capacitor will have a similar charge and remembering that a capacitor can be discharged at least as fast as it can be charged, in 20 seconds or less, this could create an average current of 360 ampere, give or take a few ampere. Given the nature of the current flow when discharging a capacitor the current will be twice as high in the first few seconds of discharging at about at least 700 ampere.

      And that's no laughing matter anymore.

      This article says that' their cell voltage is between 2.3 and 2.75V. Lets assume a value in the middle of 2.5V.
      -> Capacity: C=Q/U=(7200As)/(2.5V)=2800F (!!!)
      -> Electrical Energy: E=0.5*C*U=.5*2800F*(2.5V)=1400(As/V)*6.25V=8750AVs=8750J

      Granted, these numbers are quite speculative because I lack the exact specifications, but it should give you a rough estimate of the numbers we're dealing with here.

    12. Re:supercapacitors are cool by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think a better toilet-related analogy for slow intake and fast discharge would be someone at an all-you-can-eat taco buffet.

    13. Re:supercapacitors are cool by tibit · · Score: 2

      I don't know where you got your numbers from, but the energy density this supercap has is on par with batteries: 20Wh/kg. Now look at the size of the caps she has. Those are samples that weigh grams. Whatever fits in a cellphone will weigh probably on the order of 100g, and will store on the order of 1 Wh. I don't see kilowatts for charging, never mind that you absolutely don't have to charge in 20s. A one minute charge cuts the power by a factor of 5, and anyone sane will go with what's economical and makes business sense, not with what was put on a headline somewhere.

      Never mind that it doesn't matter much what the energy rate (power) is, what matters is the stored energy. 1 Watt-hour is 0.86 kg*Kelvin for water. Assuming whatever the phone and battery are made out of have the heat capacity comparable to water, releasing 1 W-h will heat things up by 10 degrees C.

      In other words: yes, it's as harmless as any current battery technology. Get over it.

      My other gripe: couldn't that girl publish this stuff like everyone else out there? All we have is stupid news articles and a single-page PDF summary. Weren't they supposed to have write-ups submitted with the project? WTF is all this stuff? To me it's not $5k-worthy science if it's secret.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    14. Re:supercapacitors are cool by swillden · · Score: 2

      even with fast charging, you aren't gonna want to charge ten times a day

      Maybe.

      Fast charging + wireless charging + ubiquitous charging stations might make it very practical. For my lifestyle a two-hour battery life with 20-second recharges from just putting my phone on a certain region of my desk, nightstand, car console, etc. would work just fine.

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    15. Re:supercapacitors are cool by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even smarter, not one super capacitor but a whole series of them, which discharge into a low capacity rechargeable battery

      Let's take a look at why that is not smarter. You are throwing away the energy density and quick charge properties, and increasing complexity by adding, most likely, another entire charge controller. As well, there is absolutely no need to use an array of supercapacitors, because supercapacitors are the solution to the problem of needing an array! They have fast charge and discharge, they already act wide and not just deep.

      You're throwing away energy density by wasting space on having two power systems, and you're throwing away quick charge by including a power system without quick charge. You'll want a separate charge controller for the separate power system, and that means still more efficiency loss and still more cost. It just doesn't make sense.

      --
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    16. Re:supercapacitors are cool by wagnerrp · · Score: 4, Funny

      and how much currency can it supply?

      Are you suggesting any company that brings a viable solution to market is basically going to be printing money?

    17. Re:supercapacitors are cool by overshoot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the energy density [usc.edu] this supercap has is on par with batteries: 20Wh/kg

      The grandparent quotes a battery capacity of 10 Wh. That's not remotely a 500 grams stuck into a corner of a cellphone. For comparison, my cellphone battery is 1650 mAh and 33 grams. That's 185 Wh/kg. I wouldn't call 185 and 20 "on par."

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    18. Re:supercapacitors are cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't know what the parent poster has seen or worked with, but I have worked with capacitors that are fused and have seen what happens when they fault. In some cases where the capacitors were isolated, a simple wire was used and that makes quite a mess of molten metal, in what many would describe as an explosion. Other cases, where more traditional fuses were used, it was a little better, at least for the fuses that were a bit large compared to what I picture being used in a cell phone. The smaller fuses didn't contain the energy as well, so then you go a spray of molten metal and glass.

      I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is far from trivial to make fuses for such systems. And then you still have to deal with internal faults that capacitors can rarely develop, especially high density, cheaply made ones, which will bypass the fuse. I'm used to the rule of thumb that if a capacitor has more than 10 J in it, it needs to be treated with some care, and over 100 J needs some actual safety considerations... for a 5 V battery, those energies correspond to batteries with 0.5 mA hr and 5 mA hr storage... a lot smaller than what you see around now.

    19. Re:supercapacitors are cool by EETech1 · · Score: 2

      I had some very large electroltytic caps in an variable out DC power supply I designed get switched around during a pilot build and make it through final inspection, and when I powered the first 8 of them up and those 10V caps saw 48V on our endurance stand the whole room was lit up like the 4th of July as molten aluminum and shrapnel blasted me in the face, it was quite exciting.

      Cheers

    20. Re: supercapacitors are cool by iamhassi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Surprised none of the top comments mentioned that this seems like complete BS. Greatest minds from Samsung, Apple, and every electric car company can't figure this out, but a 18 year old did, and she didnt demonstrate it running something useful like a smartphone or tablet, she demonstrates it working on a single LED that runs for days on a battery anyway, and the article is horribly light on details. Surprised this even made it on /. since it sounds like a April fool's joke or something from the onion: "teenager creates invention dozens of billion dollar companies have been researching for decades"

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    21. Re:supercapacitors are cool by mtempsch · · Score: 2

      of course it'd also very likely generate hydrogen gas - and that, when mixed with air and sparks/molten metal, is rather likely to explode...

    22. Re: supercapacitors are cool by iamhassi · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ok did the research, she "invented" the wheel, they have been using this method since at least 2007. Her method uses "a novel core-shell nanorod electrode with hydrogenated TiO2 (H-TiO2) core and polyaniline shell. H-TiO2 acts as the double layer electrostatic core. "
      http://www.usc.edu/CSSF//History/2013/Projects/S0912.pdf

      Not so novel: "Incorporating the utilization of carbon nanotubes cathode and TiO2 nanotubes anode in energy storage, a nonaqueous hybrid supercapacitor was developed in order to significantly increase the energy density of the supercapacitor."
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18019169/

      Also dr yat li which she claims was "supervising" her seems to think he invented it a year ago without her help. Notice his name is on this article with other doctors but her name is missing: "Hydrogenated TiO2 Nanotube Arrays for Supercapacitors"
      http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nl300173j

      She basically did a chemistry experiment that had already been done and published, she invented nothing

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    23. Re: supercapacitors are cool by gordo3000 · · Score: 2

      yeah, but it's so much cooler to say she invented it than to say she had a connection to get into a lab and copy what someone else had done. It's not liek the other experiments are filled with novel, unique ground breaking research. Most of this stuff is just rehashed work of some researcher who let them sit in the lab and do the same things they had done.

      I have calibrated and help set up a laser trap for some biophysics research. doesn't mean I invented the laser trap. But they are always going to talk big about this kind of stuff.

    24. Re:supercapacitors are cool by Blaskowicz · · Score: 2

      Flash is very slow at writes. An SD card "class 4" or "class 6" means it's rated for writing at at least 4MB/s and 6MB/s respectively. If your USB flash drive can do much more than that then it's very recent or high grade or both.

      I've also had a wifi network where I would reach 1MB/s when copying stuff yet the Internet connection could do 1.5MB/s on download.

    25. Re:supercapacitors are cool by hawguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Um, you and everyone commenting has missed a major detail. Don't you geekheads know about circuit breakers? Your room is probably wired to a 20 or 25 amp circuit. Check the breaker and replace it with a larger one, say a 30 and you will probably be able to run everything at once without a fire.

      I think you're just trolling, but if anyone is reading this and thinks just swapping out the breaker or fuse is a good idea, remember that it's the size of the wire that determines the safe current limit of the circuit, not the size of the breaker. In the USA,NEC specifies: 14 gauge wire = 15 amp, 12 gauge wire = 20 amp, 10 gauge wire = 30 amp. (but these are maximum values that may need to be derated in some conditions, like multiple conductors in conduit, especially long circuit runs, etc)

  2. little light on the science details. by gl4ss · · Score: 2

    did she have some new angle to the tech?

    you can buy capacitor based battery replacements for cars.

    --
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    1. Re:little light on the science details. by jamesh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      did she have some new angle to the tech?

      you can buy capacitor based battery replacements for cars.

      The only new thing in there was "holds its charge for a long time", which I thought was the only real barrier to supercapacitors replacing batteries. I suspect that "a long time" isn't quite correct for useful values of "long".

      Safety is obviously a concern too, but industry doesn't really need to worry about that until the first cell phone blows someone's ear off or laptop blows someone's crotch apart.

    2. Re:little light on the science details. by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative
      "did she have some new angle to the tech?"

      Yes. The article was terrible. She almost tripled the energy density of supercapacitors. From her paper:

      Methods/Materials
      To improve supercapacitor energy density, I designed, synthesized, and characterized a novel core-shell nanorod electrode with hydrogenated TiO2 (H-TiO2) core and polyaniline shell. H-TiO2 acts as the double layer electrostatic core. Good conductivity of H-TiO2 combined with the high pseudocapacitance of polyaniline results in significantly higher overall capacitance and energy density while retaining good power density and cycle life. This new electrode was fabricated into a flexible solid-state device to light an LED to test it in a practical application.

      Results
      Structural and electrochemical properties of the new electrode were evaluated. It demonstrated high capacitance of 203.3 mF/cm2 (238.5 F/g) compared to the next best alternative supercapacitor in previous research of 80 F/g, due to the design of the core-shell structure. This resulted in excellent energy density of 20.1 Wh/kg, comparable to batteries, while maintaining a high power density of 20540 W/kg. It also demonstrated a much higher cycle life compared to batteries, with a low 32.5% capacitance loss over 10,000 cycles at a high scan rate of 200 mV/s.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re:little light on the science details. by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 2

      Mod parent up. What I want to know is where did she get access to technology that could operate on the "nanoscale" as well as fabrication equipment, this stuff isn't exactly commonplace or cheap. Although it would be great if it was in every school.

    4. Re:little light on the science details. by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Funny

      did she have some new angle to the tech?

      Yes, she did. She used a "led" as a demo device for her super battery.

      Basically, a led is the equivalent a cell phone without a screen, without an antenna, without sensors, without memory (except for one bit), without a gps, without a speaker, without a microphone, without an amplifier, without a cpu, without a gpu, etc. Plus, it's a great device for simulating the power consumption of an actual cell phone.

      A "led" is a also a great device to give your kids instead of a cell phone. It doesn't have a great range, may be just a couple of meters. And it needs to be in the constant line of sight of the person your kid is communicating with. But barring those two little constraints, it's a good tool for your kid to learn morse code (provided that "led" is the only piece of electronics/toy your kid has access to), it works great at night, it comes with uncapped/unlimited data, and it doesn't come with an expensive bill no matter how much your kids do texting with it.

    5. Re:little light on the science details. by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative

      Correcting myself: She claims to have increased mass specific capacitance by almost 3. I'm not sure how her volume specific capacitance compares - I'd think that would be more important for cell phone use.

      Mass energy density of commercial supercaps is 3-5 Wh/kg, but 85 has been seen in the lab, according to Wikipedia. Her's is 20.1, which may be significant if it can be commercialized.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    6. Re:little light on the science details. by horza · · Score: 5, Funny

      The problem is that Ubuntu touch doesn't support the 1x1 screen resolution. We need the inventor to release the specs so a Mir graphics driver can be written. I've tried an alpha version and personally find the scroll bars tricky, but then that's always been a problem with Unity. This is the problem with Canonical trying to get one OS to work every device.

      Phillip.

    7. Re:little light on the science details. by amaurea · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hmm, I don't understand these numbers. 20 Wh/kg works out to 72 kJ/kg, which is much less than the 1.08 MJ/kg Wikipedia quotes for supercapacitors. On the other hand the article on supercapacitors claims 15 Wh/kg to 30 Wh/kg as the typical range of commercially available values, so perhaps the other number unrepresentative. Anyway, these numbers would place the 20 Wh/kg result in the article squarely inside the range of commercially available supercapacitors when it comes to energy density. This is also about 10 times lower energy density than rechargable lithium batteries. So not exactly something you want in your mobile phone.

    8. Re:little light on the science details. by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 2

      Nanorod electrode is nice, but these UCLA guys has already took it to the next level by designing an electrode made of graphene (video footage).
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVUf7-tTLXo

  3. Gizmo? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sometimes I really hate "technology" reporting.

    1. Re:Gizmo? by queazocotal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Quite.
      Supercapacitors have been around for a couple of decades, getting a lot cheaper recently.
      Tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on their development.
      At the moment, they lag _considerably_ behind cellphone batteries in terms of energy storage per unit volume, and cost.

      Sure, you can make a supercapacitor battery for your phone and it will charge in 10s. But it may only run the phone for several minutes.

      The above article gives absolutely no information whatsoever that indicates the student in question has overcome this barrier, which is absolutely key.
      Otherwise, this is just a 'student invents flying car' - when the proof given is a balloon tied to a toy car.

      A very cynical person might say that the reason for the award was in the photo.

      I am not saying that the student has not done work beyond simply sticking a $7 capacitor in a box with an LED, but that is all the article can lead one to guess.

    2. Re:Gizmo? by queazocotal · · Score: 2

      On closer reading, I find that it does indicate she fabricated the capacitor - which is noteworthy, and an achievement for someone of her age - but unless she has achieved actual breakthroughs in the field, this is again not nearly as newsworthy as the headline suggests.

    3. Re:Gizmo? by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Informative

      but unless she has achieved actual breakthroughs in the field, this is again not nearly as newsworthy as the headline suggests.

      She has. The only problem here is that the news itself is dumbed down to the point of being utterly pointless.

      Science reporting at it's finest.

    4. Re:Gizmo? by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Informative

      A very cynical person might say that the reason for the award was in the photo.

      They might, but since she has constructed a novel supercapacitor, they'd be wrong. Don't let the "it's political correctness gone mad" people win.

  4. Too much current by ebcdic · · Score: 5, Informative

    My phone battery has a capacity of 2.1Ah. To charge it in 20 seconds would require a current of 380 Amps. What kind of charger could safely supply that?

    1. Re:Too much current by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your phone battery has a capacity of about 3.3V*2.1Ah=7Wh. To charge it in 20s takes 7Wh/(20/3600)h=1260W, which is about the power of a hairdryer or a microwave oven, for a short time. There may be some technological hurdles to implementing that, but safety-wise this kind of power is not a big deal in the household.

    2. Re:Too much current by msauve · · Score: 2

      I can picture a charger which itself has a supercap. Charger tops up local supercap over a few hours, then transfers that energy to the cell phone battery over a short period. As far as current, you couldn't do it with reasonable gauge wires, but you could have some sort of large flat contact arrangement where the battery is pressed against the charger, or inserted in a slot. 380A is fusing current for ~6.5 mm^2 copper (about a 9 gauge wire), and you could certainly fit much larger contacts than that on a battery.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re:Too much current by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      Apple would ask the question, "if we used a Lightning connector, with a reasonable cable, how many minutes can we do it in?"

      20s is great for people who want to brag, but far from necessary.

    4. Re:Too much current by thomastheo · · Score: 2

      Yes, but then you would need at best another beefy switch mode power supply, and at worst another beefy transformer/rectifier. Not exactly ideal.

    5. Re:Too much current by tibit · · Score: 2

      Sigh. This is 8th grade physics stuff. Power = Voltage * Current (DC values). If the cells are at 3.5V, what you do is supply the thing with an off-the-shelf telecom supply at 48V, and even with losses you only need to push 30A or so if the cells need 380A charging current. Since the plug only needs to handle that current for a short time, it can be much smaller than already-small 30A-capable contacts. It'd easily fit in the envelope of a full-size USB type A connector.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  5. Intrigued... by mathfeel · · Score: 4, Insightful
    But what did she do? What is the underlying science/technology? The NBC report got nothing. Click-through to Intel's website for the competition did not immediately yield any more information, except an inspirational paragraph about her:

    With the rapid adoption of portable electronics, Eesha Khare, 18, of Saratoga, California, recognized the crucial need for energy-efficient storage devices. She developed a tiny device that fits inside cell phone batteries, allowing them to fully charge within 20-30 seconds. Eesha’s invention also has potential applications for car batteries.

    Will be doing some more Googling, but seriously, a link to the lab in which she worked or article/abstract published would be nice. Surely these are gifted kids, but I can't help but think the reporter really doesn't understand what she's done to write any thing more than a press release.

    --
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  6. Forgotten by Alioth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What a lot of these articles forget is the current requirements to charge something fast. Just because something can be charged fast doesn't mean you can do it.

    Let's take a typical laptop battery of 70 watt hours. To charge it in one hour, you need a 70W power supply (more or less). Now let's charge that same battery - if we can - in 30 seconds, or 120th of the time. You'll need an 8.4kW charger to do that, which is going to be much larger and heavier than the laptop. In Britain where the mains electricity is 240 volts, you're going to need 35 amps to do that (typical household circuit is 13 amps, high power circuits for example ovens and tumble dryers are 30A). In the United States you'll need 70 amps.

    OK, so you can charge slower (but still much faster than a conventional battery) but it's still going to require a large (heavy) power supply for your laptop if you want to make the charging speed significantly faster than current lithium ion batteries. You're either going to wind up lugging around a lot of extra weight with your portable machine, or you're going to need two chargers (more expense). The thing is, the times when you really wish you can charge a battery quickly are always times you're travelling and so won't have the large heavy charger with you!

    1. Re:Forgotten by msauve · · Score: 2

      "You'll need an 8.4kW charger"

      No, you don't. You're making the mistake of applying existing paradigms to new technologies.

      You can use a much lower power charger to charge a local supercap (inside the charger) over a longer time, then when you charge the "battery," you simply transfer that energy.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:Forgotten by vadim_t · · Score: 2

      It's useful even if you can't do it in 30 seconds.

      How about a 1000W charger? That's about a tea kettle, perfectly doable in domestic conditions. Laptop charged in 5 minutes while you have your breakfast.

      Sure, the charger will be a bit large, but you can offer both high and low power chargers. High power for the people who have a need for the laptop to be charged quickly. Low power for something you can travel with.

      For cell phones it gets even easier, since quite a few can be charged from the 5W USB provides. I'd love a say, 20W phone charger. Still not huge, but capable of bringing a phone into usable state fairly quickly, while I have my lunch at the airport.

  7. FTFA: by lobiusmoop · · Score: 2

    "supercapacitor, a gizmo that can pack a lot of energy into a tiny space, charges quickly and holds its charge for a long time"

    Ah, Not really, no. Supercapacitor=1Mj/KG, pretty weak sauce relatively speaking.

    Personally, I'm, holding out for a 'Doug Stanhope' phone with an ethanol fuel cell than 'runs on booze'.

    --
    "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
  8. Already there by yacc143 · · Score: 2

    The rough version is there, it's called (quite missleadingly) a second battery plus a charger that can charge batteries externally. Been using that setup for years now and it can charge a phone in seconds, as long the phone has a changeable battery.

    Guess companies might be able to fine tune it, e.g. make batteries easier to eject and insert, plus add a capacitor (a normal one, that keeps the phone live for say 30s), and you've got instant charging, today.

  9. Capacitors have problems, and will never rule. by aurizon · · Score: 3, Informative

    One problem with capacitors is the charge is stored a lot like water in a tank. As you use water the water level drops, in any capacitor, as you use it the voltage drops.
    The governing equation is Q = 0.5 *C*V*V.

    A single cell (in a battery of cells) is composed of two materials of different chemical states and they produce a constant voltage until one of the chemical states is depleted. Charging reverses this, again at a constant voltage. The charge and discharge voltages in a theoretically perfect cell are ~~ the same, in a real cell, resistance caused voltage drops and departures from irreversibility lead to differences in the charge discharge voltage. You must charge with a high voltage than you get on discharge.

    A second problem, is the fact that a bulk material changes state in a cell, this inherently stores more charge than a capacitor, which is a surface layer of added charge. It is true that since the capacitor involves no change of state, that the life is more or less infinite, and because it is a monolayer of charge, you can charge and discharge at speeds limited only by the current limits of the wires.

    The net result is the energy density of the best capacitors is barely as good as the worst batteries.
    Battery graphs here http://tinyurl.com/autjb7l
    Capacitor graphs here http://tinyurl.com/byqbdje
    Direct comparisons here http://tinyurl.com/b9zwcdw

    As long as you design a downstream voltage regulator to use the declining voltage to power your circuit at its required constant voltage, then ultracaps will find a niche in many pieces of equipment from Cars(as a peak acceleration source) to tiny items as the sole power

  10. Some more numbers by Attila+the+Bun · · Score: 5, Informative

    Interesting numbers. Just to compare, here's the energy densities of lithium-polymer batteries and super-capacitors, taking the values for best easily-available components I could find.

    LiPo: 168 W.h/kg, 370 W.h/l

    Super-cap: 5.1 W.h/kg, 6.6 W.h/l (I'm being slightly generous to the capacitor here, by counting the energy to discharge it to zero volts. In practice that last bit of energy will not be usable.)

    The volumetric figures are most critical for phones, and in those terms batteries are 56x better than super-capacitors. So an improvement of 3x is interesting, but there's a lot more work to do.

  11. Discharge rates by Attila+the+Bun · · Score: 4, Informative

    Forgot to mention self-discharge rates: 0.007 C/day for LiPo batteries, and 0.08 C/day for super-caps (12x greater)

  12. Re:Super capacitors? Seriously? by gweihir · · Score: 2

    There were no affordable supercaps with leakage current low enough in the 1980's your memory is playing tricks on you. The standard means used was NiCad button-cell accumulators.

    You are right about the age of supercaps though.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  13. Re:Power for the people by Dr+Max · · Score: 3, Informative

    The article is brief on facts but i would bet my money she has just repeated the graphene super capacitor experiment done by and explained in detail by these guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oEFwyoWKXo all you need is a light scribe dvd player some grpahite oxide and a dielectric.

    --
    Rocket Surgeon.
  14. Re:Power for the people by Gription · · Score: 2

    The video references the issue with fast charging: Fast discharging.

    People tend to forget that high quantities of stored energy have an inherent danger. Laptops catching fire because of lithium-ion battery failures are usually the only hazard that people tend to remember. To truly have a consumer safe device you want something that can be charged quickly but the maximum discharge rate is closer to a conventional battery.
    The point is that when you exceed a certain speed of energy release the device starts resembling a bomb more then a battery. A wrench dropped across both posts of a car battery is spectacular enough in a very scary way (even before the battery actually explodes.) (And don't try this! An explosion can spray acid a LONG way.) A device that can discharge almost instantly is even more destructive. We obviously need to be able to store energy for so many different reasons but the method needs to remain safe even when handled in a completely negligent manner... like a consumer device.