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World's Biggest 'Agile' Software Project Close To Failure

00_NOP writes "'Universal Credit' — the plan to consolidate all Britain's welfare payments into one — is the world's biggest 'agile' software development project. It is now close to collapse, the British government admitted yesterday. The failure, if and when it comes, could cost billions and have dire social consequences. 'Some steps have been taken to try to rescue the project. The back end – the benefits calculation – has reportedly been shifted to a "waterfall" development process – which offers some assurances that the government at least takes its fiduciary duties seriously as it should mean no code will be deployed that has not been finished. The front end – the bit used by humans – is still meant to be “agile” – which makes some sense, but where is the testing? Agile is supposed to be about openness between developer and client and we – the taxpayers – are the clients: why can’t we see what our money is paying for?'"

349 comments

  1. Because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You wouldn't understand it.
    You would exploit it.
    You wouldn't do anything to make it better.
    You would waste time complaining about everything.

    1. Re:Because by PNutts · · Score: 5, Funny

      You wouldn't understand it.
      You would exploit it.
      You wouldn't do anything to make it better.
      You would waste time complaining about everything.

      Burma Shave!

    2. Re:Because by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Now I've spit coffee all over my keyboard!

    3. Re:Because by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 2
      One question. How many of the Devs were at home sitting playing WOW and just outsourcing their tasks to a small Dev shop in China?

      Its been done before :D

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    4. Re:Because by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      You wouldn't steal a keyboard? Would you steal a handbag? A DVD?

      Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:Because by umghhh · · Score: 1

      I think you will burn in agile hell. It still remains to be seen whether that is a good thing :)

  2. Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by kthreadd · · Score: 5, Informative

    But it might make it clear that it will fail much earlier and then at a lower cost.

    1. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by MichaelMonaghan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pretty much this exactly. Also, it's tough to get programmers and managers who have never worked in an Agile environment to buy into it. My company started using it 4 years ago and we still have a few holdouts despite the obvious benefits in both productivity, cost and simply a better work environment for everyone. Hell, I think the best part about the Agile process is those one or two guys on a piece of a project that never seem to do anything and could end up causing drama simply doesn't happen in a proper Agile setup since there is daily accountability and you're working on smaller pieces.

    2. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...since there is daily accountability and you're working on smaller pieces.

      So that means it's impossible to do anything big or that requires extended planning? Sometimes a developer needs to be left alone for a week to come up with something good. Regimenting the process into days and forcing a daily bullshit update is just abusive to the creative process.

    3. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Virtucon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree but the daily accountability is still something that a lot of hard core developers don't buy into. The "leave me alone" mentality still prevails in big shops. There's also a lot of gaps in Agile and IMO while Stories are great they are not a substitute for fully defined requirements analysis. Not that they can't go hand in hand but I've watched lots of Agile projects fail because of incessant changes in vision and invalidation of stories subsequent to their definition by other stakeholders. The key stakeholders either don't pay attention or louder voices who have really no relative bearing to the project somehow get suddenly important. These are often folks with something to gain by holding things up or creating confusion. That is always the problem in all projects but it seems more acute in Agile because "hey, we have a process that can allow for these changes." Ultimately the team gets into a tail chasing situation and nothing of value (to the key stakeholders) gets built and the project gets cancelled. On the successful projects that I've worked with in Agile, there's strong stakeholders, good architecture keeping the vision in place and project management that keeps things well orchestrated. Without those in the mix, it'll fail just like all software projects.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    4. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But it might make it clear that it will fail much earlier and then at a lower cost.

      But apparently it didn't succeed in that, either. They're discovering massive failure only after three years and billions of pounds.

    5. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by tgd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Pretty much this exactly. Also, it's tough to get programmers and managers who have never worked in an Agile environment to buy into it. My company started using it 4 years ago and we still have a few holdouts despite the obvious benefits in both productivity, cost and simply a better work environment for everyone. Hell, I think the best part about the Agile process is those one or two guys on a piece of a project that never seem to do anything and could end up causing drama simply doesn't happen in a proper Agile setup since there is daily accountability and you're working on smaller pieces.

      "Waterfall" -- i.e., the "old fashioned" way of doing things -- does one thing very well that Agile loses. And that thing is something that was understood for a century of large project management planning. Waterfall ensures quality with a team of varying abilities, or large teams. Agile ensures predictable delivery, but quality is very dependent on the individual abilities of the team members.

      Anyone who has done large projects would know immediately that you don't do a billion dollar project with a pure Agile methodology. You simply can't get enough people who are strong enough to deliver a quality output without a very high amount of formal planning and progress gates.

      The most successful large (multi-hundred engineer) projects I've seen in the last five years tend to use waterfall for the overall project, but encourage teams to run their parts of the work in an agile manner. You get the visibility into progress that way, but the formality of process to ensure you're really building the cohesive system right.

    6. Re: Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by CadentOrange · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It could have been a lot worse. They could have discovered it after decades and spent even more billions. Like the central NHS database project.

    7. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by tgd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...since there is daily accountability and you're working on smaller pieces.

      So that means it's impossible to do anything big or that requires extended planning? Sometimes a developer needs to be left alone for a week to come up with something good. Regimenting the process into days and forcing a daily bullshit update is just abusive to the creative process.

      You've already failed at project of that size if you're letting a developer be "alone for a week to come up with something good". A developer's job, in a project like that, isn't to come up with something good. Their job is to implement a specific piece of functionality in the specific way defined by the people whose job is to have the broader view of the project.

      Some developers may not like working in that environment, and they shouldn't be working on a project that size. Cowboy programming is for small companies. (And, for what its worth, I've worked directly with many hundreds of engineers in the last couple of decades, and the happiest engineers are the ones who recognize which kind of project they like to work on, and avoids working on the other.)

    8. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      But it might make it clear that it will fail much earlier and then at a lower cost.

      But apparently it didn't succeed in that, either. They're discovering massive failure only after three years and billions of pounds.

      The people doing this project are human they make mistakes. Besides we don't know how Agile they are I've worked on a lot of Agile projects and a lot of Waterfall projects and I've never seen one yet that was wholly Agile. I'd be more interested in how much of it was outsourced but then I didn't RTFA

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    9. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The short(er) and honest version is that projects like that are inclined to fail, spectacularly and at great expense, whilst everyone on the job gets paid either way.

      People are either accountable or not. When you have teams of "project managers" that don't know shit about shit, shoveling ridiculous and disparate feature changes into the (often offshore) dev shops inbox, while their programmers simply crank out code to match, you're begging for the whole thing to go right in the toilet.

      Large consulting firms like Accenture build their entire business around this kind of approach. The result is always a failure that costs millions (or in this case billions) of company/government dollars on a product that doesn't do what it was supposed to.

    10. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. Agile is a WHOLE lot easier to get wrong than it is to get right. The benefits it promises come only from the synthesis of ALL its components. Project managers who think they understand it, but don't quite get it, wind up tweaking it just a bit (in a way that seems to make perfect sense) and that tweak completely undoes the approach. The effect often isn't instantaneous...it is felt over the life of the project.

      Be that as it may, for some types of projects Agile is flat out wrong.

      Agile is awesome when you can't afford to frontload your development costs, don't really know which features will get a lot of use and which ones will just collect dust, and when your project manager actually understands agile. But there is a very severe drawback when you are building a huge feature-rich juggernaut of a system that needs a very sophisticated and precise back-end: refactoring costs go through the roof.

      Agile proponents often get angry when one says anything bad about it, and yell about how writing maintainable code is one of those elements of agile that you can't sacrifice. And I agree. And the refactoring cost gets more evenly spread that way, but remains astronomically high for complicated systems. Here is exactly why:

      Every feature you add to a back end system, no matter how well coded, increases the complexity of the system.
      The more complicated the system, the more expensive it is to add a new feature to it.

      Waterfall can give you some savings in this specific department because the initial system design already includes the final (or near-final) level of complexity, so you don't pay the extra cost of adding a new feature to an already existing system over and over again. Waterfall still has costs in that some of those features may never be used, and hence are wasted effort, and also misestimation and requirement changes are more expensive and put a project past deadline. But for huge systems, these costs are preferable to the project-destroying costs of agile refactoring.

      There isn't one approach that is right for every problem, and agile is not the right approach for this one.

    11. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by LifesABeach · · Score: 4, Funny

      This should be modded Score 5, Funny. Your thesis is that everyone knows what thery're doing, except the programmer that can't make it work, and is honest enough to tell you so.

      Repeat after me, "The King has no clothes." It just doesn't get old.

    12. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For most projects, if they fail, it's because of poor planning or poor implementation. Agile is a tool that tends to work better than waterfall if done correctly, but if not done correctly, either blame the programmers and/or management for not being professional enough to understand how agile works.

    13. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Interesting concept, use Waterfall for Macro Project Planning; then cross over to Agile for Micro Project Planning.

    14. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by gutnor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually Agile would probably handle mediocrity quite well, at least making it apparent.

      What agile really sucks at is handling the political aspect of the project, because simply agile requires complete honesty and honesty does not scale very well above a small team. In a very large project involving loads of teams, management is a lot closer to a poker game and you don't win at poker by showing your cards to all the players.

    15. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by SirLurksAlot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's also a lot of gaps in Agile and IMO while Stories are great they are not a substitute for fully defined requirements analysis.

      I hate to break it to you but "fully defined requirements analysis" is a pipe dream filled with rainbows and unicorns. I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do. Even if it did it would be true for all of 5 minutes before the product owner/user changed their mind and redefined what they want. The whole point of stories is to do things in small, end-to-end slices to produce functionality quickly, let the product owner see it and play with it and then get a better idea of what they really want. I know what you're going to say next: "If they keep changing their minds then how does it ever get done?" Simple, you make it extremely clear that continuously changing their mind directly equates to more time and money spent and prevent other functionality from being implemented.

      The key stakeholders either don't pay attention or louder voices who have really no relative bearing to the project somehow get suddenly important. These are often folks with something to gain by holding things up or creating confusion. That is always the problem in all projects but it seems more acute in Agile because "hey, we have a process that can allow for these changes."

      You're right, this is true on all projects. Stakeholder involvement has to be managed just like any other aspect of a project. As for "we have a process..."; if you think Agile is about processes then you really don't get it. Agile isn't about processes, it really is about adapting to change and doing what works. If what works is having a daily stand-up and holding team members accountable for for their work then so be it. If it means not pair-programming, then do that too. There are no hard and fast rules.

      --
      God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
    16. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cowboy programming is for small companies. (And, for what its worth, I've worked directly with many hundreds of engineers in the last couple of decades, and the happiest engineers are the ones who recognize which kind of project they like to work on, and avoids working on the other.)

      Small companies like Facebook?

    17. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      The problem is you can't avoid mediocrity- most programmers are mediocre. And in more corporate environments the percentage of mediocre and bad goes up, as the really good programmers tend to gravitate towards pure software shops and startups. The trick is to give them parts that stretch their abilities but don't overwhelm them, which requires good management.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    18. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by darkstar949 · · Score: 2

      Depending upon what type of software you are writing, if you aren't doing some fairly detailed requirements analysis then you are setting yourself up for failure. Case and point, medical devices and financial systems. In both cases you can't just go in there and change things on a whim as there is paperwork that is involved with documenting why you are even making the change in the first place.

      It sounds to me like the direction they are taking the project (waterfall model for the back-end and Agile for the front-end) is likely how they should have approached things in the beginning. User interfaces need a lot of iterations to get "right" but for the back-end code, as system like this likely already has a body of knowledge to draw on for what needs to be done so Agile wouldn't necessarily gain you anything.

    19. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by sandytaru · · Score: 2

      This is actually how our project management class suggested we do it as well last year. Waterfall is needed on large scale projects to ensure a cohesiveness of vision and to make sure individual components and modules are all headed in the same direction. (Also to make sure everyone is on the same page for code, libraries, APIs, etc, so the stuff actually works together.) Individual teams can do Agile on a smaller scale (or even scrum if they're masochistic.) That ensures that the team is accountable to each other. Then the team leader is accountable to the project management group, who can provided feedback and adjustments to steer folks back to the grand waterfall vision when necessary.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    20. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      - - - - - A developer's job, in a project like that, isn't to come up with something good. Their job is to implement a specific piece of functionality in the specific way defined by the people whose job is to have the broader view of the project. - - - - -

      The unstated assumption in that theory is that there is a group of human beings who are unto demigods, capable of defining detailed specifications that cover all eventualities, see far into the future, and can be implement mechanistically by simple code grinders. I have run into two or three such people in my entire career, out of the thousands of system architects and business analysts I have worked with in some capacity. And even those three people (a) often got caught by surprise by unintended side-effects (b) were often part of a process that took so long to come to fruition the system so designed was obsolete by the time it was deployed.

      The only industry I am aware of where strict, spec-controlled waterfall is probably appropriate and generally works is aerospace controls systems. Of course that industry is notorious for huge schedule and cost overruns (the A400 software fiasco is particularly instructive in this regard), and even their software is not free from bugs and unintended consequences. Ref the numerous changes Boeing has made to the electrical system control software on the B-787 since it went into service - why didn't they just "get the spec right the first time"? Enrico Fermi's comment on how to manage the unknown is very instructive.

      sPh

    21. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by naroom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If all "Agile" really means is "Do the project in such a way that it will succeed", then "Agile" is a useless word. Agile has a bad case of "No true Scotsman".

    22. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by sphealey · · Score: 2

      - - - - - Agreed. Agile is a WHOLE lot easier to get wrong than it is to get right. - - - - -

      Of course waterfall and other strict-spec methodologies have a 72 year history [1] of failing spectacularly too, and from about 1980 have had the added bonus of being too slow for business velocity.

      sPh

      [1] counting from about 1940, although projects using the mechanical accounting systems of the 1920s may have had similar problems

    23. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I hate to break it to you but "fully defined requirements analysis" is a pipe dream filled with rainbows and unicorns. I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do.

      Well, I've written them, and I've never had a project fail.

      One example involved interviewing

      i) the owners of the company

      ii) an executive from each department

      iii) a "regular joe" representative from each department

      This became a 40+ page project specification, which was signed off by all stakeholders and became the contract.
       
      Then this document was fed into a series of code generation engines, which created hundreds of thousands of lines of code. This was all done with an eye towards allowing various professionals to go away and do what they do best without getting held up waiting on each other or tripping over each other, filling in the missing functionality in the generated code.
       
      That system is still in operation close to a decade later, organizing the working lives of thousands and serving the needs of millions.

      Now I work in Agile. I hate it. I'm always having to check with other people constantly to move forward, I never get in the zone, there's a lack of clarity and vision, and I feel like I'm getting stupider each day and I'm not producing my best work.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    24. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by sphealey · · Score: 2

      Having bashed waterfall quite a bit upthread, I will say that I have no desire to have Facebook's developers program my bank account or inventory control system. Sometimes consistent, validated transactions that don't randomly disappear really are important.

      sPh

    25. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2

      I just want to add...

      Try writing a project that meets ISO specifications for medical use using the waterfall method.

      People will die.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    26. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small companies like Facebook?

      You mean that shop where they used to force everyone to use PHP, because the founder/CEO liked to go into the codebase and change things? Yeah.

      Using a company with infinite venture capital to spend isn't really a good counter-example.

    27. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by loneDreamer · · Score: 1
      From the article:

      "Successful delivery of the project is in doubt, with major risks or issues apparent in a number of key areas. Urgent action is needed to ensure these are addressed, and whether resolution is feasible."

      So my guess is that you are right, this could be an example of fail fast. And a potential win compared to the waterfall approach, depending on which of those "key areas" could have been identified beforehand. The fact that there is a lot of money on the table is what has people running scared. In any case... Waterfall? Did't we decide to avoid it like the plague? I hope they mean Iterative (i.e. RUP).

    28. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "But apparently it didn't succeed in that, either. They're discovering massive failure only after three years and billions of pounds."

      Hahahaha. Sure. But look at all the "waterfall" projects that have failed after 10 years and more billions of dollars or pounds. I'm not sure about over there, but there have been a few famous ones in the U.S.

    29. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The benefits it promises come only from the synthesis of ALL its components.

      Yes, yes, we've heard it a thousand times, if an agile project fails, it must not have been truly agile. Probably isn't a true Scotsman, either.

    30. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      I'd want to see a cite for that one. Waterfall has been accused of being slow, of being expensive, and making it difficult and expensive to make changes after the first phase. Those are all legit "cons" of waterfall development.

      But the form that is actually used and called waterfall in practice is also known to work very well. Maybe not on a cost/benefit analysis for small business. But on large projects it not only works, it has been used to build most of the stuff that has, you know, been built. It is a complete engineering process. Next time you drive over a bridge, be glad they used a waterfall-like development paradigm.

    31. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also means doing an end-run around the doc team who are often the people you want to bring into a project really early.

      The tech writers often will tear into project assumptions, dodgy logic and vague ideas like flame throwers. However, Agile's endless "make busy" fake product planning often focuses on components over integration. Having the tech writers around to point out "you defined X as Y here and X as -Y in another story" makes them as welcome as Banquo's Ghost at the dinnertable.

    32. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Just because it might be more profitable for some sites to write crappy software... doesn't necessarily make the crappy software better. That it is inappropriate for banking systems is, as you imply, because banking systems have to work. But facebook can be crappy. But just because there is a business case for the crappy software, doesn't make it less crappy. It just means, make it crappy anyways. To make a buck.

    33. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      I hate to break it to you but "fully defined requirements analysis" is a pipe dream filled with rainbows and unicorns. I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do.

      Well take a look at a bridge or a tall building. "Waterfall" design process is just "traditional engineering process." You've never seen a fully engineered system, well, sure. I believe you. That doesn't mean it is doesn't exist.

    34. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by SirLurksAlot · · Score: 1

      Yes, Ken Schwaber basically said this at Path to Agility on Thursday. I think his exact words were "it was just a word that we thought was clever, but it probably has more of an impact than if we had used 'rigid', or some other word."

      At the end of the day the Manifesto really says they support collaboration and getting things done over planning and following a process. It doesn't say a thing about any of the practices that have been implemented in Agile's name.

      --
      God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
    35. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I totally agree and just wanted to add, the backend system can be over-built in advance and still function perfectly. In a fully engineered system where you won't be allowed to make small changes, it is not so harmful to have extra methods in the API and things like that. On the front end, agile people freak out if there is anything extra. A common mistake I see is confusing the harm, the bit rot, that comes from having stale code in a rapidly changing environment for there being a problem with unused code. The bit rot comes equally from the willingness to make changes as it does from having unused parts. In a fully engineered backend system that does all the things the front end might reasonably want, you don't even have to allow feature requests. Something like this that is to support and implement government programs you could conceivably go decades with only bug-fixes on the back end, even while the front end (and database) changes frequently.

    36. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's right, it's all just programming, motherfucker

    37. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...since there is daily accountability and you're working on smaller pieces.

      So that means it's impossible to do anything big or that requires extended planning? Sometimes a developer needs to be left alone for a week to come up with something good. Regimenting the process into days and forcing a daily bullshit update is just abusive to the creative process.

      You've already failed at project of that size if you're letting a developer be "alone for a week to come up with something good". A developer's job, in a project like that, isn't to come up with something good. Their job is to implement a specific piece of functionality in the specific way defined by the people whose job is to have the broader view of the project.

      Parent poster here. I see your point, however, my experience has been that separating the designer/architect role from the developer role is fraught with pitfalls. The people writing the code should be the ones designing it, otherwise you end up with a skyscraper put together with superglue instead of bolts and welds. The response to that is to have precise specs, but the time spent writing specs that are precise enough to be flawless is more productively spent doing the actual coding.

      The bottom line to all management fads and whether a development process is effective and ineffective are fundamental human limitations:
      1. Quadratically growing communication overhead as teams get larger
      2. Finite human memory capacity, limiting how much information about a project each developer can be aware of (and each developer must be aware of the whole project, to avoid causing havoc or reinventing the wheel, or they must be sequestered in their own subcomponent)

      A good team size appears to be five, and an organization should not have more than five teams that need to intercommunicate. The challenge is to break up a piece of software to fit this kind of arrangement. Anything else will lead to company-wide split-brain, NIH, and communication bottlenecks. This is true regardless of the development process selected. Fundamental human limits are like the speed of light, you can get closer to them, but you cannot exceed them. So assemble good teams, architect your project to fit those teams (or vice-versa), and remember that everyone is human.

    38. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 0

      Good point... we don't even know if they're really True Scotsmen!

    39. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the project manager is incapable of accepting a "still working on this, trying out a new approach for the next two days" from a developer, they are incapable of managing an "agile" project.

      It's not about segmenting work into days or even weeks/sprints - it's about maintaining visibility on the development process so that everyone becomes aware of potential problem sooner rather then later.

      Doesn't matter what approach you take, a bad manager can ruin any process.

    40. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by sphealey · · Score: 1

      The context here is large-scale software and/or systems development, not mechanical/civil engineering. The latter are different animals due to (a) an additional 200 years of experience in discarding what doesn't work (b) the ability to overdesign to avoid unk unks (that's what "factor of safety" means, a concept that James Eads learned the hard way from his mentor) (c) the existence of reasonably clear scientific laws that drive the design. Maybe in 2140 software design and development will have reached an equivalent state of capability, but it isn't clear that there are any scientific principles equivalent to the laws of mechanics that apply.

      sPh

    41. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

      Deloitte tried classical waterfall for our SAP implementation.

      The specs delivered by the first wave (who got bonuses, parties, and 24 months of 45 hour weeks) were not even FUNCTIONAL in many cases and did not capture essential business rules. Noone at the start really knew what was right or wrong so they just wrote up crap and it got signed off on as complete specs.

      Then the rest of us got 36 months of 60 to 80 hour weeks (multiple deaths, non fatal heart attacks, divorces) doing the work in a waterfall mode with a FIXED schedule as features were constantly being discovered.

      For a large project, you really need to do a prototype and then throw it away and then do the work again.

      But fundamentally, it was the bad market which helped them abuse everyone so badly and which lead to so many bad decisions (the executives making the decisions were sending out emails at 9pm and responding at 3am. They went multiple years with basically no sleep just like the rest of us... and it showed in the quality of their decisions).

      As I said in my other post, I prefer RUP for the focus on resolving risk early and the time boxed delivery of functional code. Not because you can succeed-- but because you can prove you are failing so much sooner and adjust scope, resources, or cancel the project.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    42. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is actually not always a good idea. "Specific functionality in the specific way" is basically waterfall programming. Projects that are not just trivial business logic usually involve a lot of unknowns, and two-way communication from the developers to the managers is needed. If a manager says "do this thing in this specific way", there is a high probability some issues will come up after implementation has begun, that requires creative thinking to resolve.

    43. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Its more than that. Managers prefer mediocre programmers because then you are not dependent on them.

      Managers have this dream that programmers are a kind of generic glorp that can be poured into any job slot and be easily replaced with another generic glorp programmer.

      One manager had this dream of putting all programmers for a multi billion dollar company into a single oncall rotation. Whoever was up that night would cover accounting, inventory, plant, invoicing, database, pc problems, etc..

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    44. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by KingMotley · · Score: 2

      Nah, agile is a tool that works well when dealing with small projects with loosely defined processes that might change rapidly that are usually defined by the end user. Well defined processes, or large projects are usually better served by waterfall at least for the first release that includes the backend and middleware. The front end can then go through many iterative revisions based on user feed back.

      Going agile for a well defined large government project was a bad decision whether it ultimately failed or not. Agile is just one tool. You can sometimes use the wrong tool for a project and still get it done, but knowing which is the right tool will always be better.

      "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like nails"... Quote by someone who understood this.

    45. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by rtfa-troll · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd want to see a cite for that one.

      This is not an area where it is possible to give "a cite" since there are whole genres of literature covering this topic alone. If you haven't read ."The Mythical Man Month" (please note; the book has a Wikipedia page; this is not an Amazon link) then that is where you should start. Not because it is complete, not because it is up to date, but because it will make you realise that the problems of today's IT were already fully described in the '70s and that our advances in the last decades have been incremental and mostly small.

      Next time you drive over a bridge, be glad they used a waterfall-like development paradigm.

      Bridges do not work the same as software development. Whilst each individual bridge has some differences in environment and location, in general you are just repeating a structure which has already been build long ago. In sofware the equivalent of building a new bridge is the "cp -ar" command. Agile is mostly designed to address development of new features on pre-existing software which is completely different.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    46. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd want a cite on that claim that there is a difference in engineering there. Sounds a lot like, "... on a computer!" to me.

    47. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Upper management prefers this. I don't think this is anywhere near universal at the lower levels- they realize that the top 10% of developers save their asses. Then again, this is why I work for small companies and startups and not anything outside the tech industry- management at small places is smarter than that or fails quickly.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    48. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>>>> Agile is supposed to be about openness between developer and client

      Really? Agile is supposed to rake millions to its priests and training centers etc and nothing more -- and it actually is working if you consider this goal alone.

    49. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      In the end, buy COTS and change your business to fit your COTS implementation.

    50. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Sounds a lot like, "... on a computer!" to me.

      You're talking about two completely different kinds of projects, built with completely different skill sets, with completely different requirements and constraints and deliverables. You're arbitrarily assuming that the same basic process will work effectively in both cases. Then you're challenging anyone who disagrees to cite evidence? I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why your position has any logical basis. Why would we ever assume that sound engineering strategies for such radically different tasks should look anything like the same? It might be, or it might not, and surely the whole point of an engineering approach would be to look at the needs of each project and make decisions based on evidence and merit.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    51. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by MichaelMonaghan · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You have apparently never worked in a proper Agile environment. It doesn't work like that at all. Instead of being overwhelmed and needing to spend weeks coming up with some grand scheme that may or may not work and is hard to test you instead have teams that focus on smaller chunks of features and get something completed, code reviewed and QA'd as a whole much quicker. The daily meetings are typically only 10-15 minutes for whole teams and you do is say what you are working on that day. It allows Devs, managers, scrum masters (if you use scrum), QA and tech writers to all bring up anything that concerns them during that time. Not to mention people who typically wouldn't be friends or communicate suddenly become friends and teams really are teams with people who will back each other up and work harder to ensure that goals are met. It also cuts down on those long ass meetings that sometimes only pertains to you for 1/4 of the meeting. I worked in waterfall environments in the past and this is my first experience with Agile (been with my company for 9 months) and I have nothing but positive things to say about it. The only problem with it is that the company and everyone on it needs to buy into the process rather than try to "lone wolf" everything.

    52. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Small companies like Facebook?

      You're citing a company whose motto is "Move fast and break things", a company that is indeed infamous for breaking its software all over the place and introducing changes its users don't want, as evidence that cowboy programming works at scale?

      Facebook have been shrewd about their marketing, and they've developed probably the most effective lock-in/network effect strategy in software history, and they've also been lucky at a few times when it counted, and they're successful as a result. Please don't confuse any of that with technical merit, which really has very little to do with their success or failure at this point.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    53. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The unstated assumption in that theory is that there is a group of human beings who are unto demigods, capable of defining detailed specifications that cover all eventualities, see far into the future, and can be implement mechanistically by simple code grinders.

      I think you're extrapolating considerably there. In reality, the "unstated assumption" is probably a clearly stated and legally actionable rule that when the specs or overall architecture is deficient, as obviously these things will be sometimes on any large project, then it's the responsibility of the guys further up the tree to fix those problems rather than the job of the bottom-tier code monkeys to deviate from their specs.

      Don't get me wrong, if you've got a good team building your company's software then I'm all for shallow management hierarchies and empowering individuals. But we're talking about a national government running a massive project to automate a large chunk of its tax and benefit system, with who knows how many people and of what quality involved in building it, and with literally life-changing consequences for many, many people if it goes wrong even for a few weeks. The rules of the game are very different, and the management style has to allow for that.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    54. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Cederic · · Score: 1

      ..without then initiating a 36 month waterfall process in which you gather 17000 business requirements, identify 420 interfaces your new package must support with other systems and externals, design customisations to 94% of the screens and most of the the back-end processes and find out that at least three of the package components haven't actually been written yet, before abandoning the whole thing.

      Biggest waste of £300m I've ever been involved with. If only they'd listened to you, and changed the fucking business.

    55. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Gr8Apes · · Score: 0

      Waterfall may have failed spectacularly on some projects in the past, but where are the Agile success stories for projects of a similar scale and scope? AFAIK, there are exactly 0. Yep ZERO. Where is the Agile explorer or planetary lander success story?

      I'm currently on a massive FRagile project, it has already failed, at least from the original budget and timeline. It's still on track for the back of a napkin waterfall budget and timeline I did 5 months ago when the first inklings of major failures were already evident, if you knew where to look. According to the daily scrums, though, everything was just roses until 2 months ago. At least my team is on track for the happy path. I'm still not convinced that my pessimistic estimate isn't the right one, adding another 6 months to the timeline due to continuing failures in the section of back-end services I'm partially dependent upon. Services do not work well under Agile, ever.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    56. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > They're discovering massive failure only after three years and billions of pounds.

      One might conclude that there were not following an "agile" methodology then...

    57. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Agile is a WHOLE lot easier to get wrong than it is to get right. The benefits it promises come only from the synthesis of ALL its components. Project managers who think they understand it, but don't quite get it, wind up tweaking it just a bit...
      Waterfall can give you some savings in this specific department because the initial system design already includes the final (or near-final) level of complexity, so you don't pay the extra cost of adding a new feature to an already existing system over and over again. ...
      But for huge systems, these costs are preferable to the project-destroying costs of agile refactoring.

      Discovered architecture. In big systems this approach is shite. Many systems need to work together in big projects. It is far better that all the interfaces are known in advance and well documented. That requires set goals to work towards as a whole. There is a need for architects, business systems analysts and project managers to have a vision of what is required and work towards it. Within the sub systems there is no reason that agile can't be used (but sure, not always). But when working between systems the interfaces should have already been negotiated. And sure, even those can't be set in stone and there needs to be some agility to required changes that are discovered; but not wholesale or unrestrained. The negotiated interfaces must at least be cast in metal, not stone. A little ductility is required, but it doesn't mean it should be easy. Not for the developer, nor for the business by the way. Expectations need to be managed on all sides. Often poor project management is exhibited by poor expectations management too.

      But speaking of which, the business cases and needs have to be met in a known way. After a certain point that can't be agile. Businesses move slowly. Often they have to make wholesale changes to how they do business when new systems are put in place. They can't be made to keep shooting at moving targets. End user documentation and training needs to take place. This means the system can't be constantly changing after at least some point. What works for small systems with limited functionality and user-base will not work with large, hyper-large, and complex systems. And how do you test large complex systems to ensure it meets the needs of the end users when the system constantly changes. The interface to the end user needs to be negotiated and fixed in metal the same as inter-system interfaces.

      I wish I could find the article but someone pointed to the center of a normal curve and said 'if this is your target audience' and then pointed to the extreme outlier region of the curve and said, 'this is you, if you are the one developing it.' It means that not everyone can be rocket scientists or programmers. Not everyone has the ability to keep learning new changes to the system they are expecting. And business can not be expected to receive the system, take the time figure out what it can do and how, and then train hundreds, and in this case thousands of users on how to use it. They need to know what they are getting ahead of time. They expect to have mock ups/prototypes before the final system arrives so that many of the users, especially the power users, will already have a handle on things so they can get everyone else up to speed. And sure, this can be done in an agile-ish manner. But like working with xml or json interfaces, if you remove fields or change aspects of the interface (like the meaning of a field) it is incredibly more disruptive than simply adding new fields. i.e. For a U.I. don't so much make changes to it, rather add to it. Totally redefining a look and feel will have huge repercussions and add a lot of cost outside of the development arena. Just look at how much a change in a word processor can impact an organization. No, not all your end users are as smart as you. On big projects, programmers, it isn't all about you!

      And of course the bigger the system is, the more expensive

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    58. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by tgd · · Score: 1

      Cowboy programming is for small companies. (And, for what its worth, I've worked directly with many hundreds of engineers in the last couple of decades, and the happiest engineers are the ones who recognize which kind of project they like to work on, and avoids working on the other.)

      Small companies like Facebook?

      Have you used the software they produce?

      If you think that is a good example of meeting the customer's desires in a reliable way that doesn't cause implementation churn ... well, you just made my point.

    59. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? So no successful software has been developed w/o agile? You're probably too young to know better, but most of the systems you rely on today were built without agile. How much of the core infrastructure that kicks into gear when you swipe your credit card or ATM card was built using agile techniques, how about when you answer a phone or place a call? The answer is, very little (of course, the GUI that you see on the web to see your "minutes used this month" may have been built w/agile - if it fails, there's very little cost to anyone and it's quite simple to get right).

      How much agile do you suppose was used in the United States space program?

      Agile seems to work well where there are a bunch of relatively independent features which can be included/excluded independently and each little piece is simple (such as adding a spell checker to each cell in a spreadsheet or adding a button to "add to cart AND checkout"). Agile may also be good for building prototypes (unfortunately too many companies end up shipping these prototypes).

      However, complex systems consist, at the lower levels, of mostly stuff that HAS to be there. For example, if you're writing a database and expect to provide support for transactions, that's a decision you need to make early on and that has to be designed, reviewed, and implemented carefully. Until it's mostly done, it provides almost no function so mandates such as that all work in a sprint produce a useful function is problematic. It's really not an option to decide that "there isn't room in this sprint for transaction management so we will push it to a later sprint" and then "rinse-and-repeat". As well, constant refactoring isn't an option in these areas as (1) the replacement HAS to be as reliable as the old and (2) must not have adverse performance characteristics that impact existing customers/usage beyond an acceptable level.

      BTW, well managed "waterfall" like projects have never been "big bang" - there are milestones and there are stages of development and it is most certainly NOT "cowboy coding" (that's what agile is). "Waterfall" in practice has always been an adaptive process -- iterating between two successive levels is expected and encouraged, what you are trying to do is avoid as many gut-wrenching "multilevel" iterations as possible and to assume otherwise is disingenuous (presumably due to ignorance or denial).

      Waterfall style methodologies do require more skilled senior people of course - architects and managers with an attention span over six weeks who can reasonably accurately predict the consequences of today's action eighteen months down the road. This is, in fact, the biggest problem with using waterfall methodologies -- the explosion of people who do software development because "it pays well" rather than "because they love it" and the lack of visibility to most young developers into waterfall projects creates a severe shortage of sufficiently skilled senior developers/architects to lead waterfall projects. The good news is, a lot of the software written today really doesn't need to be up to the quality standards that was required thirty years ago simply because it's not critical to any business or ethical function and agile cowboy coding works well enough for these projects (if the trajectory of a bird should have toppled a block on a pig and doesn't quite do it, no big deal -- it's not like it was a manned moon shot).

    60. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      now it took longer for them to realize that. agile in this case apparently distributed knoweledge of that. also, I don't think this is a project that would run into any showstoppers, like not getting authorization from some other company to do it or running into api's that are out of bounds or into calculation problems that aren't possible to do in budget.

      the problem isn't developing the parts in agile fashion, but slapping the whole process from beginning with a big team and just yelling AGILE!

      the problem here seems that they didn't even know what they were developing? which is fine for some products, some r&d type of developing where nobody knows anything what the software might be for, if you're sketching a new service or something like that - but not for something that definitely had a function to perform and they shouldn't have been finding out what that function was while developing. this sounds like a system that should have had a pretty good definition of what the back end must do before the whole project started. actual development of parts could very well have been done in agile fashion, but the function those parts should have done would then have been known in advance.

      also: wtf? they really tried to run an agile team the size of that budget in single so called agile process? the sub-team to sub-team communications lag would fuck it up(and there would be plenty of that! with that size they're likely using multiple different contractors working at multiple places and corporation to corporation communications always end up being laggy at that size due to being siphoned through specific people who likely aren't even the guys doing the design decisions... so cue up broken telephone syndrome with someone you should be talking with directly to get anything done this year).

      (waterfall vs. agile has nothing to do with deploying code that isn't finished either)

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      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    61. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Virtucon · · Score: 2

      I hate to break it to you but "fully defined requirements analysis" is a pipe dream filled with rainbows and unicorns. I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do. Even if it did it would be true for all of 5 minutes before the product owner/user changed their mind and redefined what they want. The whole point of stories is to do things in small, end-to-end slices to produce functionality quickly, let the product owner see it and play with it and then get a better idea of what they really want. I know what you're going to say next: "If they keep changing their minds then how does it ever get done?" Simple, you make it extremely clear that continuously changing their mind directly equates to more time and money spent and prevent other functionality from being implemented.

      LOL, you haven't done much with big clients in big corporations and the government have you? Requirements analysis can be done and yes, it's like anything else if you pay attention and have committed stakeholders who are willing to validate what's put down on paper then you'll be successful. Stories are great, don't get me wrong but invariably they don't get into enough detail. I realize it's about breaking things down into smaller pieces to show progress but progress to what? If's it's something small such as a component then it works well but when you get into large projects with lots of integration points, somebody has to keep everybody on track. Yes, it works but believe me with the politics and the usual lazy asses that you get with large scale anything with lots of people, things can come unglued and at the end you'll have a steaming pile of dog crap. I've seen it, great projects either waterfall or agile become undone quickly because some stakeholder got all butt hurt and said "this isn't what we want, they's guys are wrong bla bla" and start yelling it to whatever unattached exec who has not a fucking clue what's going on starts raising a stink. He/She then talks to their peers and a shitstorm erupts, then it trickles down on your project and I've seen so many PMs sweat at this point showing burn rates etc. and yet they can't show a product, just charts because "we're not that far in the stories yet."
      Hilarity ensues and it sounds like this is happening with the British project. The point is that it doesn't matter what process you use but you have to have people who are committed to working, stakeholders and subject matter experts who know what should be delivered and a management framework that supports what you're doing. In Big Companies and in Government, trust me you don't get that. Government is the worst because it breeds idiots in middle management who have an embedded "I'm a civil servant, no way I'll ever need another job" mentality that can be horrible and make everything fail. If you think the US Congress is bad, try the IRS, the Dod or any other agency.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    62. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      If all "Agile" really means is "Do the project in such a way that it will succeed", then "Agile" is a useless word. Agile has a bad case of "No true Scotsman".

      it is an useless word. but they tried to just use some word that would get people to be.. well, agile, instead of escalating some problem back three levels of a waterfall process every time they hit a snag.

      but you know what? then some companies thought up of a plan to sell agile training that involved making up rules to dictate what action to do when and how to arrange your product into pieces - so that they would have something to train on courses, essentially turning "agile" into something very not agile, where not only what you're going to do this week is planned in advance but also what you do next week.. and not only that, but it was planned in advance what you will do on a particular day and how many hours you're supposed to spend on it. now you might think that's actually just super-micro-managing and you would be right - and it would be anything but agile! but still done by the book and course material so can't blame the manager!

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      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    63. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a U.I. don't so much make changes to it, rather add to it. Totally redefining a look and feel will have huge repercussions and add a lot of cost outside of the development arena.

      "Oh, don't worry, documentation will have that taken care of in ten seconds flat. It only took us ten minutes to change the words on all the menus as well as the shapes/sizes of half the icons, why shouldn't documentation be ready by the end of the sprint? Screenshots are so waterfall, they should just source random-filename.png out of the source code directory and pray that we didn't rename anything!"

      And six weeks later, when they change the UI again, we threw it all out and start over. The product hadn't even shipped yet, but by glub, we had to make our sprints.

      Fortunately, I don't work there anymore.

    64. Re: Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could have been a lot worse.

      Ohh that sounds like one of these words of wisdom agile gurus spurt out themselves. That is usually indistinguishable from farting tho....

    65. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agile means: evaluate what worked and what didn't. Keep doing what worked and alter what didn't. That's the core of agile. It means you have to frequently evaluate your progress and make changes based on experience.

    66. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by umghhh · · Score: 1
      but but but if the team works better when the daily standups/situps are done once a week then surely agile framework would allow it or?

      It looks to me that you are obsessed with these routines or ceremonies as they call it in scrum whereas the teams out there work in different ways and we all have to deal with real humans and not models of them made up by some agile guru. The whole framework is purposely left vague to allow exactly that, so almost anything goes. It is I admit appealing idea but agile Taliban (I mean the folk that is easy to recognize because they end discussion with simple 'it is not agle' as soon as they cannot provide any common sense argument) make it unworkable or at least extremely painful more often than not. It is not that agile is evil or something it is just a tool. Quite frankly I do not even care - agile, waterfall, iterative or chaos/cowboy way - I think I can do it all and succeed and in fact I did but only as long as I felt I was a member of the team and we all behaved like grown ups. I think I can go as far as to say that the most important things in a project are: good people that understand each other as well as good luck so that specifications do not change all too often as quite frankly if you change basic requirement for a complex new system after 95% of it is already done then there is almost nothing that can save the project. Of course you can claim it is a success anyway by ignoring :schedule, budget and quality criteria of a success. I do not even say that we have to be so strict with these criteria but there is a thin red line out there which makes project a failure and it has to do with these three factors and bad change in requirement specification late enough means you cross it.

    67. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by umghhh · · Score: 1

      things tend to work better when done properly. Hurrey sounds like we have found another guru!!!

    68. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Waterfall has been accused...

      The fucking name "waterfall" is an accusation. There never was any "waterfall" methodology, it's just something agile assholes came up with to intimate that anyone who planned things out well ahead of time was crazy.

    69. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This might be the first time I've seen a reference to "no true scotsman" used appropriately.

    70. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by khchung · · Score: 1

      I agree but the daily accountability is still something that a lot of hard core developers don't buy into. The "leave me alone" mentality still prevails in big shops.

      The ugly truth is, IMO, the mentality is really not as much as "leave me alone" as it is "let me cover up my failure in hope of a miracle". And miracles DO happen quite frequently in large companies, where 80% of their projects fail anyway, so as long as you can cover up your failure until some *other* guy's failure can no longer be covered up and the whole thing failed, you are good.

      In some cases, it manifest as the "Schedule Chicken" pattern. But this works on every level. Architects can stall any project by unending questions and arguments on the design, ensuring his design will never face the test of reality, or at least enough CYA when the system fails. Developers can keep pretending they are on-track, while nothing works, until other teams call for a delay, or every components fail spectacularly during integration.

      Doing Agile takes away all their excuses and provides great transparency, it usually makes a lot of people who used to work in large shops extremely uncomfortable, to say the least.

      --
      Oliver.
    71. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to break it to you but "fully defined requirements analysis" is a pipe dream filled with rainbows and unicorns. I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do.

      Well, I've written them, and I've never had a project fail.

      One example involved interviewing

      i) the owners of the company

      ii) an executive from each department

      iii) a "regular joe" representative from each department

      This became a 40+ page project specification, which was signed off by all stakeholders and became the contract.

      JUST 40 pages of specification? Yours is just a small project like building a barn, compared to raising a 50-stories high rise with a data center, offices, and shopping mall inside.

      The article was about BILLION dollar failures. Billion dollar projects CANNOT be specified in just 40 pages. They have requirements that are hundreds to thousands of pages long, written by different people in different deparments, and the detailed specification page count goes in thousands.

      Can you honestly say you, alone or with a team, can write a 3000-page specifications or requirements document and still be sure there are no contradictions, omissions, or any defect?

    72. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Waterfall" -- i.e., the "old fashioned" way of doing things -- does one thing very well that Agile loses. And that thing is something that was understood for a century of large project management planning. Waterfall ensures quality with a team of varying abilities, or large teams.

      Unless by "ensure quality", you mean "ensure LOW quality", your statement about waterfall contradicts my experience in the past two decades of software development.

      We wouldn't have 80% failure rate if waterfall ensured anything. IME, the only thing waterfall ensured is the job security of large number of "project managers" and "architects", who are sure to cost your project a whole lot upfront. Whether that will result in anything useful when the design phase completes (we ARE talking about Waterfall, aren't we?) and the technical spec document was sent offshore to develop is anyone's bet.

      No, Waterfall never ensured quality. Diligent project tracking, good people management, good developers and good QA practices help to give you quality, and none of those are inherently part of the Waterfall model.

    73. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One manager had this dream of putting all programmers for a multi billion dollar company into a single oncall rotation. Whoever was up that night would cover accounting, inventory, plant, invoicing, database, pc problems, etc..

      You may suggest a "cost saving" initiative to remove the CEO and have all middle managers on a single rotation to act as the CEO of the day. Then eventually scale up, er.. down, to all levels of managements, then the company can save all the benefits paid to managers!

    74. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by JDG1980 · · Score: 2

      You've already failed at project of that size if you're letting a developer be "alone for a week to come up with something good". A developer's job, in a project like that, isn't to come up with something good. Their job is to implement a specific piece of functionality in the specific way defined by the people whose job is to have the broader view of the project.

      You're going to have a hard time hiring and retaining decent developers with that kind of approach.

    75. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by hey! · · Score: 1

      But it might make it clear that it will fail much earlier and then at a lower cost.

      Which *still* doesn't constitute success.

      The term "agile development" covers a lot of ground. Much of what people mean by "agile" simply amounts to best practices (e.g. daily commits, unit testing, frequent builds etc.). But "agile" also refers to a kind of iterative and incremental approach to identifying and pursuing business goals in your project (exemplified by Scrum). That turns out to be a sensible and appropriate approach **in many but not all situations**.

      Many development projects exist in a business environment where business needs evolve quickly, driven by both endogenous (management decisions) and exogenous (competition and market) factors. Likewise the software project itself, if it is reasonably successful, alters the very business conditions it is designed to address. *Under such conditions* you can't set out to build something in two years with any confidence that it will be what is needed twenty-four months from today. On the other hand, no programmer can be productive if he gets a different set of marching orders every day. You are forced by circumstances to adopt a flexible, iterative approach that allows the programmers to actually complete useful work before its specifications become obsolete, which contains the scope of *change-driven* failure and points your team in the right direction sooner rather than later.

      But it is critical to remember that not *all* projects are like that. If you are writing software to control a spacecraft or a nuclear power plant, you don't sit down and bang out a little production code to figure out what it is you need to build. There's a lot more you can and should do to prepare for coding, and the classical engineering principle of discovering requirements as early in the process applies. It applies to the chaotic business situation too, but in that situation many requirements are simply impossible to anticipate.

      In any case, the phrase "world's biggest agile project" should give any thinking developer pause. "Huge" and "agile" (in the goal-setting sense) don't go together. It seems to me that the idea of approaching *some things* in a waterfall manner (still using many best practices associated with "agile") and *others* in an interactive, exploratory fashion is the approach they should have been taking from the start.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    76. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      The system mentioned in the article is exactly the kind of system that can't have randomly disappearing transactions. So you're basically telling us that the agile method wouldn't work for that either.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    77. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Remember, the customer isn't the users that don't pay anything to use facebook. The customer is facebook itself and the companies that use it for advertising. From that perspective, it seems to work incredibly well.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    78. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      They had tried. They said they would cut business rules- and then realized they couldn't when multimillion dollar customers started leaving and threatening to leave. The business analysts and the programmers who were talking to the customers tried to tell the business this 24 months earlier.

      Then they got overly sensitive and had a weird mixture of "COTS but with every custom feature previously supported.. except when we arbitrarily decide to drop it as too expensive except when we re-include it because customers are complaining" all while holding resources and schedule fixed.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    79. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by julesh · · Score: 1

      The benefits it promises come only from the synthesis of ALL its components.

      Yes, yes, we've heard it a thousand times, if an agile project fails, it must not have been truly agile. Probably isn't a true Scotsman, either.

      There's a big difference here. The problem with the No True Scotsman fallacy is that there isn't an agreed-upon definition of a True Scotsman before you start. However, there is a widely agreed-upon definition of agile. The very first paragraph of the "principles" page behind that link reads:

      We follow these principles:
      Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer
      through early and continuous delivery
      of valuable software.

      I would contend that software that does not perform a useful function by itself is not valuable. Therefore, this project which has never delivered software which is useful, is not following the "highest priority" of the most widely-cited description of Agile. It is therefore quite clearly not correctly following the requirements of an Agile project.

      It may well be that it would have been impossible for this project to be Agile. This is not something new; it is widely known that not all project types are appropriate for Agile development. See for example this page, which states:

      When You Should Not Use Agile Project Management ...
      When the project cannot be broken down into components for the purposes of client, user or customer input and testing throughout the project i.e. a process that cannot be changed or implemented a piece at a time but must be changed in one go

      Sure sounds like a description of this project to me.

    80. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...We still have a few holdouts despite the obvious benefits in both productivity, cost and simply a better work environment for everyone...

      Those "holdouts" still value "quality"--something missing from your list of benefits.

      This era of software quality is like the current political push for deregulation of business by government. That orthodoxy has resulted in polluted streams and rivers, deadly spinal injections, tainted and adulterated food, toxic drywall and dog food, and an across-the-board decline in the ability of industry to get ANYTHING right. "Agile" is working toward the same fate for the same reasons.

      Coders embrace it because it allows a more improvisational development process. Not every coder is inspired to innovation, elegance, and solidity by looser guidelines, processes, and procedures. Too many instead have their weaknesses and shortcomings exposed by the lack of up-front delineation of the task, its, scope, its schedule, its design, or even a vision for the overall product itself. Managers lose sight of the product's true quality over time as those weaknesses impede, impair, and corrode the development process over time. It is the QA people--the ones finding the OBOBS, casting-clusterfks, memory leaks, and interface cock-ups--who wind up compromising. The stepped-up iterative cycle makes much more likely a project that becomes like trying to fix a car while it's running the Daytona 500. Customer oversight falls most directly on management. When customer expectations risk going unmet, management negotiates with engineers to pare or postpone features and the QA people are expected to implement those changes with little or no pushback. "Agile" is fine for small projects--especially if the team is technically solid--but "laissez-faire" software quality gives you debacles like Universal Credit and Windows 8.

    81. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to break it to you but "fully defined requirements analysis" is a pipe dream filled with rainbows and unicorns. I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do.

      The first major project I worked on did exactly this. The company's future depended on having this system enhancement ready and we engineers knew EXACTLY what was required of us, and when it was required. They gave us the time to figure out, present, and have validated HOW we were going to do it. But everything ran ahead of schedule and under-budget--we were able to deliver enhancements to the front-end and documentation with the extra time.

      Our bonuses rocked.

    82. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it might make it clear that it will fail much earlier and then at a lower cost.

      Ah, obviously you've not read up on the track record of the British Government on IT spending.
      It wouldn't matter if it was a project with projected costs of £100 million spread over three years which was an obvious lemon from day one, even if it failed on day 2 and was cancelled by the start of day 3, it will have ended up costing the British taxpayers £230 million over those three days (and it would take us decades to find out this fact).

    83. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel like I'm getting stupider each day

      Then I have good news for you.

      You couldn't possibly get any stupider.

      Talk to my lawyer, you crazy bitch. How long are you going to obsess over me?

    84. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      .. Billion dollar projects CANNOT be specified in just 40 pages.

      It's Britain, old chap,
      £billion IT projects can be specified by Oxbridge 'classics' graduates on the back of an old school tie..

    85. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by tgd · · Score: 2

      Remember, the customer isn't the users that don't pay anything to use facebook. The customer is facebook itself and the companies that use it for advertising. From that perspective, it seems to work incredibly well.

      Actually, it hasn't. Their stock is in the toilet. Their ad revenue is stagnant because the introduction of ads has done nothing but drive people away.

      Facebook is a textbook example of the fundamental downside of rapid-paced, planning-free development.

    86. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2

      Can you honestly say you, alone or with a team, can write a 3000-page specifications or requirements document and still be sure there are no contradictions, omissions, or any defect?

      Yes. I'm entirely capable of that. That is indeed what I'm saying.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    87. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by tgd · · Score: 2

      You've already failed at project of that size if you're letting a developer be "alone for a week to come up with something good". A developer's job, in a project like that, isn't to come up with something good. Their job is to implement a specific piece of functionality in the specific way defined by the people whose job is to have the broader view of the project.

      You're going to have a hard time hiring and retaining decent developers with that kind of approach.

      If I'm running a billion dollar engineering project, the engineers who can't work with the team or think -- with their extremely limited view of the project -- that they know what needs to be done aren't people I'd want on the project anyway. I might have a hard time hiring and retaining, but I'd have an easy time firing. Been there, done that. Cowboys are toxic to large scale engineering.

      Just as you don't want a steel worker deciding a beam should be attached differently when you're building a skyscraper because he thinks he knows better than the architect who designed the building and did the stress analysis, you don't want a programmer thinking that way. Both are people you *do not* want working on the project. And, if they're unhappy and leave -- better for it. No hit to unemployment insurance rates that way.

    88. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by jknapka · · Score: 1

      "Then this document was fed into a series of code generation engines"

      Who specified, wrote, debugged these magical code generation engines? Who verified that the (Nx)100KLOC that emerged from them was correct?

      Nice that the project is still in operation. Are you sure it's doing what the spec says?

    89. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then this document was fed into a series of code generation engines, which created hundreds of thousands of lines of code.

      lulz

    90. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coming from (physical) engineering, I must call you out. You design that bridge or that rocket in quite an agile manner. You are solving a new, unknown problems. You come up with various designs. You test them. You redesign. You iterate. Once you've found a winner you get it certified and your crank them out with waterfall until the cows come home there after.

    91. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by snadrus · · Score: 1

      As a programmer for the steel industry, here's some perspective:
      - Architects give 'final' drawings to fabricators whose draftsmen typically do serious cleanup in terms of simplifying & component-izing the design. High coordination with architects occurs here.
      - Fabricators turn raw steel into Beams with names like G12 & F36 which connect using a type-B connection: They make it an IKEA project.
      - Installers (the least paid) follow directions. As they're risking their lives, weather & safety are their biggest concerns. Inspectors nearly outnumber workers & are glad for the simplifying the fabricators did.

      Yes, a steel worker should not (can not actually) change attachments. But a software dev resembles a fabricator's draftsman. Their knowledge goes a long way. When working with draftsmen, they would find staircases to nowhere, find different connections between every beam, and were even known to send drawing sets back (to a General Contractor who hired the architect) as being entirely unfit to build.

      They don't do stress calculations, but are a second phase of knowledgeable individual. In contrast, software developers (with testers) are doing the stress work & much more of the structural work. And what comes from agile architects is pitifully under-prepared for blind creating, comparatively, than what I heard the draftsmen get from architects.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    92. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My company started using it 4 years ago and we still have a few holdouts despite the obvious benefits in both productivity, cost and simply a better work environment for everyone.

      From what I've seen of Agile, those benefits are neither real, obvious, or actually benefits.

      At a certain point, you actually need to design your software and stick to that, not give yourself the option of doing rewrites and changing your entire plan every few weeks.

      Agile programming is a buzzword, but in practice, I've never really seen it as something which works as advertised.

    93. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by prionic6 · · Score: 1

      Enrico Fermi's comment on how to manage the unknown is very instructive.

      sPh

      I'd like to read that comment, but a quick google search didn't bring up anything. Any pointers?

    94. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody, including you, believes that.

    95. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by david_thornley · · Score: 0

      Sometimes a developer needs to be left alone for a week to come up with something good.

      In almost all cases, if you can't break a week-long task into subtasks, you don't understand it well enough to do it right. The time to analyze the task is before the week starts. As far as the daily stand-up goes, if a developer is afraid to say "This is taking longer than I thought", the project is doomed under any methodology. Any more-or-less objective progress report ("clean compile on the frammistan module interface") is fine.

      So, yeah, sometimes a developer needs a week to come up with something good, but the developer doesn't have to go dark during that time.

      You can scale up agile, too. You've got a big list of requirements, you can decide on the basic approach and go from there. You may want to break the whole effort down into large parts, in which case the team works on one part at a time. If the project requires extended planning, you can break the planning down into stories and use agile on that.

      Agile is no panacea, and it's real easy to get wrong, but it is widely applicable.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    96. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The development methodology had nothing to do with any failures. Facebook's stock is in the toilet because the IPO had a P/E ratio of about 100, without any corresponding valid plan to raise earnings by a factor of five or six. It was an extremely successful cash grab, and you've got to expect the stock to tank after that. Moreover, the overall plan of putting in more ads was going to fail whether implemented by agile, waterfall, or cowboy coding. The complaint is that there are more ads, not that the ad placement and presentation were ineptly coded.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    97. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Requirements also always work when written on unicorn hide with dragon blood. Nobody can fully understand a 400-page requirements document. A requirements document that is signed off and will not be changed protects nobody but the developers. What I've seen large consulting firms do is come in, talk to people, do stuff, and at the end the customer gets a system that does kind of what they wanted and is fully signed-off on.

      You then proceed to describe what happens when somebody comes up with changed requirements. Most non-embedded software is written for environments where changes are going to happen, and the resilience of the methodology to changing requirements is very important.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    98. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by istartedi · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter if you and your team can do that. You and your excellent team don't scale to every project on the planet. We need a better way to manage projects involving people who are something less than excellent.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    99. Re:Agile doesn't mean that the project won't fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you suggesting I talk to your (imaginary) lawyer about? And how long are you going to keep telling yourself that "obsessed" means something other than what it actually means?

  3. Take that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take that, false programmers :-) Long life to true programming!

    1. Re:Take that by wmac1 · · Score: 1

      Project failures are hardly a programming problem.

      Project management, software engineering processes (specially requirement engineering) and design are the most risky. Hiring programmers which are fit for the project is still a risk factor though.

    2. Re:Take that by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      Having seen both the waterfall model and the agile model I would say that both models needs to be applied correctly to work. The agile is working for incremental development in small steps where you can adjust and adapt as you go, the waterfall works for long iterations but it requires that each step is thoroughly analyzed for problems. It works fine for slow projects but not for quick to market and cheap projects.

      Changing process method in the middle of a project is a sure sign that it's time to abandon ship because the management doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

      One of the primary reasons for a large project failure is that people aren't working with the same goal in sight. Even the single worker needs to know what the overall picture is and what they are supposed to do and why.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    3. Re:Take that by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Changing process method in the middle of a project is a sure sign that it's time to abandon ship because the management doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

      I gotta call BS on that. You're claiming that if they adopt a modern practice, and it fails, and they go back to the traditional practice as soon as they see the new practice failing, that they're automatically clueless, don't know what they're doing, and should be thrown overboard.

      You'd really know they were clueless if the new practices were failing, but they just plodded ahead.

      And, seriously, you think a project to implement a government program is going to have the problem of "people aren't working with the same goal in sight?" That makes sense to accuse that in most software projects, but the goals are not subjective or very flexible here. And I disagree that on large projects everybody needs to know the big picture. On a large project, the vast majority of people should be looking at their own part, and trying to get them to look at the big picture is going to cause a lot of mistakes. Most people are not any good at thinking about the big picture, and zooming in on the details at the same time. Those that you do have who can do that should be the team leaders or managers.

      Yes, on small projects, you want everybody to think about the big picture. Because the "big" picture is small.

  4. What's that saying about agile? by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Agile assumes you have smart, talented, dedicated individuals doing the work. Then again if you have that pretty much anything works.

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    1. Re:What's that saying about agile? by jacobsm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agile is just the latest management fad. In a year or two something else will come along, and the lemmings will follow.

    2. Re:What's that saying about agile? by zitsky · · Score: 2

      Do you actually work as a project manager? I do. Try executing your idea in an average company and see how far you get. Good luck getting only "smart, talented, dedicated" individuals for your project! Even those employees will have character flaws, personality conflicts or other reasons that prevent the project from succeeding.

    3. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Virtucon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Year or two? Agile and it's variants have come into being because the old methods of software engineering were thought deficient and slow. Agile does work when teams are focused and stakeholders engaged. Agile does work just like the other methodologies but it's not the ultimate solution and companies or governments in this case who take on a development project with it need to know the pitfalls and how to avoid them. Otherwise you'll still have a steaming pile of dog crap at the end.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    4. Re:What's that saying about agile? by gallondr00nk · · Score: 1

      Agile assumes you have smart, talented, dedicated individuals doing the work.

      And, I would wager, reasonable, patient, even handed clients (which will be the government, and not the ridiculous assertion as stated in the article that it's the taxpayers). I challenge anyone to look at the Victorian dinosaurs in power in the UK and assume any of those qualities.

      That was just a cheap shot at the government, I admit it.

      I imagine whatever will run UC on a technical level will just be another government collossus. Their minds are incapable of conceiving or implementing anything else.

    5. Re:What's that saying about agile? by ph1ll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "DWP IT chief and government chief information officer Joe Harley said in May 2011 that agile would ensure his department delivered Universal Credit on time in October 2013."

      So, a two year iteration and a guaranteed delivery date? Yeah, that really sounds like Agile.

      The article goes on: "Attention must turn to Accenture and IBM, who are on track to earn £1bn between them as lead developers of the system. They may have played the most significant part in agile's failure at DWP, or DWP's failure at agile. Accenture and IBM may have found agile commercially inconvenient. Neither has yet been able to speak about it."

      Ass-Center and IBM? Yes, two companies who are well known for their love of Agile [rolls eyes].

      --
      --- "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
    6. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also assumes you don't have leadership constantly pulling the rug out from under you.

    7. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      IBM? I would have thought they'd be using RUP as it's their baby!

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    8. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Agile can only be described in a big poster of buzzwords. Follow the buzz you dumb lemming.

    9. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You sound like a typical manager. You think you alone have all the world's talent. Damn the man.

      You know what Agile development gets us for our workspace? It gets our managers out of the office for a week as they attend seminars and crap for it. It's amazing the things we get done during that week when they're all off "learning." You know what we do when they get back? We run them in circles chasing a problem we created for the specific purpose of keeping them busy.

      Posting AC in case I work for you.

    10. Re:What's that saying about agile? by nightcats · · Score: 3, Funny

      My new project methodology is to be called Fragile. Called it, now everyone jump on board and pay me.

      --
      Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
    11. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agile assumes you have people with an IQ of at least 100 and can understand what Agile is. The only thing "hard" about Agile is that it requires planning, but one would hope that most large projects would have planning.

    12. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taking it more seriously, both methods can work. Taking one side or the other is akin to attaching yourself to a particular political or religious manifesto and following it blindly. I have seen great waterfall products with great results. I have seen waterfall fail in a death march. I have seen Agile efforts work nicely (especially on smaller projects) and I have see some "fail fast" over and over again.

      It's more about people and talent than process.

    13. Re:What's that saying about agile? by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Its mostly people and talent, but the question of what you're doing is important too. Agile is great for things that are easily visible to customers- UI development or web pages, for example. It fails where you have other systems depending on you- a back end service can't change that quickly or have stability issues. Of course, you can do different methodologies for different parts of a complex system and use each where they make sense.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    14. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Year or two? Agile and it's variants have come into being because the old methods of software engineering were thought deficient and slow. Agile does work when teams are focused and stakeholders engaged.

      Anything works when those working on it are focused and engaged. That's the point. Whoever makes up a new method is generally working very hard to prove that it works, on projects where it works particularly well, and they will only brag about it if it actually did. Eventually the general public will start using it on everything, the bad experiences will start piling up, and what was the great new thing will end up being thought of as deficient and slow.

    15. Re:What's that saying about agile? by sphealey · · Score: 1

      - - - - - My new project methodology is to be called Fragile. - - - - -

      That's actually not a bad idea/observation - if you have some deeper thought behind that you could probably get at least a book out of it.

      sPh

    16. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh. so in other words you don't do anything useful?

    17. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Agile has been in use for over a decade, (12 years since Agile Manifesto now) and has been a fad for probably 7 years. So I agree. The new fad is probably already in use, already growing, and about to burst onto the scene.

    18. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Or, you know, in the Agile Manifesto. Oops, you ran right off the cliff chasing presumed buzzwords. Lemming.

    19. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      If you have these low-IQ people you cite as the minimum on the project, waterfall is perhaps the only thing with heavy-weight enough engineering to guide the project to eventual (long, expensive, painful) success.

    20. Re:What's that saying about agile? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. That is why the first line of the Agile Manifesto states "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools". I guess most people advertising Agile have never read or understood that. With the best people, you just need to make sure you are not standing in their way. Agile is all about that. If your engineers suck, on the other hand (and that seems to be almost the norm in software development today, as the pay and career options usually sucks as well), no process can fix that.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    21. Re:What's that saying about agile? by umghhh · · Score: 1
      This is actually quite thoughtful. The deficiencies of a project (whatever which type) needs to be cured and this needs to be done continuously. This especially for large organizations is a problem so you need to do reorg and change your way of work from time to time to adjust to what you have learned. You need these nice fashionable slogans to make some change trough the whole company. I think it works to a degree actually. I just find it funny when they tell me that from now on we do it in completely different way. We change everything so that everything stays the same. Maybe I should become a guru too? I guess my spelling and grammar is a bonus then?

      OT of course but this thread is a nice flame! Much better than all these others flames apple v. ms or c++ v. java etc. This is good: everybody has (usually uninformed) opinion, we all disagree and it is irrelevant enough to be a reason for a heated debate but without throwing abuse. I like it!

    22. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ass-enter is little more than a con artist shop. we gave their "top developer" a surprise fizz-buzz test.
      he failed after 15 minutes.

    23. Re:What's that saying about agile? by thebiss · · Score: 1

      Apparently you didn't know that, until recently, Scott Ambler worked for IBM.

      --
      Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    24. Re:What's that saying about agile? by spectro · · Score: 1

      A properly run Agile development project should release a "potencially deliverable product increment" at the end of each iteration. Iterations usually last between 2 to 4 weeks. Big agile projects such as this one should have a production release schedule and deliver an actual (unfinished) release every 3 months or so.

      There is no way a properly run Agile project should be classified a failure, you might get less features than initially requested, but you should get working code running in production early and often.

      --
      HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
    25. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agile has been around since 2001 and many of the key concepts predate that. I was doing daily stand ups with what amounts to "stories" and burndown charts and short 2-3 week sprints since 97 or so.

    26. Re:What's that saying about agile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Agile is just the latest management fad. In a year or two something else will come along, and the lemmings will follow.

      Agile as understood and practiced by management is a fad. In my opinion, most manager and users still do adhoc project management no matter which methodology they use.

      All "agile" did is give a name put programmers under the gun while avoiding to write any real requirements. I avoid companies that claim to use agile because the only people who end up with two week incrementsdealines/whatever you want to call it are the programmers, which translates into "you should work your ass off for two weeks because there's another two weeks worth of work afterward."

      I find agile, when practiced as such, only burns out programmers faster.

  5. BTW should I mention my pet name for Agile by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I refer to it as "Monkey's Paw Development" (And before anybody asks agile to me ends up being "Hey let's ask developers what they'd wish for in an awesome development environment. Then give them that but give it to them in such a way that they regret ever asking for it.")

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    1. Re:BTW should I mention my pet name for Agile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you know that is how all management works.

  6. To quote Bruce Lee... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
    After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
    Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

    I've worked with a few different methodologies in my time, but now that I'm older I realize all you have to do is follow common sense. It's really not that difficult.

    1. Re:To quote Bruce Lee... by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Indeed. The problem is that not many people actually have the common sense required and that complex software projects are routinely attempted with cheaper, not very competent developers. That can never work. Complex projects need masters of the art, no matter what the art is. And the masters of the art need to be put in charge, not managed by some "managers" that do not have a clue. If you do not have a "chief engineer" in charge that could do most parts with his/her own hands, then you are doing it wrong.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  7. Where's the testing? by jwthompson2 · · Score: 2

    That question would indicate to me that they're doing Agile wrong. Agile development ought to include a short feedback loop that includes not only the client, but automated tests. So, if this question is legitimate, then something is very wrong with how this project has been run.

    --
    Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
    1. Re:Where's the testing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That question would indicate to me that they're doing Agile wrong.

      Agile, unlike everything else in the world, is the perfect silver bullet. There can't be anything wrong with Agile. The seminar even said so.

    2. Re:Where's the testing? by Alef · · Score: 1

      No, you dimwit, that's exactly the point. Agile is not a silver bullet, it is a framework of good practices, and there is nothing stopping you from sinking a huge and complicated project (or a small one) even if you subscribe to them, precisely because they are no silver bullet.

      What the GP refers to is that extensive testing it one of the most emphasised tenets within Agile, and if this project didn't do testing, it calls into question exactly what they were doing at all.

      The biggest problem I see with Agile is that people think it is a silver bullet, and expect projects to magically become perfect as soon as you slap on an "Agile" sticker and let everyone go to a seminar, instead of actually understanding why certain practices are recommended and adapt them to their project's particular context.

    3. Re:Where's the testing? by zdv · · Score: 0

      Ha. I specifically looked at the comments for this article to find out how many "they must be doing agile wrong" joke posts there would be. But I only found one, and it was serious! Sigh...

  8. Open Source It by VortexCortex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Agile Needs Testing? Open Source It.

    It's perfect for that. Open an issue tracker, let folks dump in the requirements. Give us the backend API, and I'll work on it for free an hour or two here and there, just for grins.

    Oh, it's closed source? Well, I hope it's a massive disaster and you learn your lesson. You can't pay for the brightest minds. They wouldn't be caught dead slaving away at those software houses. But let them do it "for the good of mankind", they'll be brow bashing each other for a chance to get their beautiful bit of brilliance in the code base.

    1. Re:Open Source It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is possibly the dumbest fucking comment I've ever read on Slashdot, a brilliant juxtaposition of arrogance and ignorance. Bravo!

    2. Re:Open Source It by westlake · · Score: 1

      Agile Needs Testing? Open Source It.

      Open Source a project to consolidate all national welfare transfer payments in a country of 63 million. Meeting all accounting and legal requirements. Now tell me how you recruit and manage OS "volunteers" with the depth and experience needed to do that.

    3. Re:Open Source It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solving the wrong problem. If those "accounting and legal requirements" were part of the open source project, that is, if the rules and operation of the system were determined by what the software does, social welfare would work a lot better.

  9. The public is not the client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The government is the client. There is no reason for the public to be involved in an unfinished project.

    1. Re:The public is not the client by max · · Score: 1

      Someone please mod parent up.

      Just because taxpayers somehow pay for something doesn't mean that every taxpayer should be able to get full real-time insight into or control of it. I shudder at the thought of the extra cost when gazillions of wannabe software developers consider themselves to be the clients of a government project and mess it up.

    2. Re:The public is not the client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the government is the client then by definition the public is the client, since the government is only acting on behalf of the public. It's its only legitimate reason for existing.
      You shudder at the thought of millions of people ‘messing it up’ with their feedback, but what actually happened is that millions of people, who paid for the thing and therefore had a right to transparency, didn't know what was going on and because of that no one applied the brakes or provided useful help and therefore the project failed.

    3. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Just because taxpayers somehow pay for something doesn't mean that every taxpayer should be able to get full real-time insight into or control of it.

      Really? Why shouldn't the public get "full real time insight" into just about everything government does? What is there to be gained by having government be secretive?

    4. Re:The public is not the client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, so not only do you have to deliver a massive, incredibly complex software project on time and on budget, now you have some non-trivial % of 63 million citizens behaving like backseat drivers, and politicizing every line of code you write, and writing you hate mail because you've "helped the government streamline its fascist confiscatory behavior," or "implemented code helping the government keep the poor and disadvantaged in line." (Take your pick - no matter WHICH end of the political spectrum you choose, some nutjob is going to be writing you hate mail.)

      Fuck, where do I sign up for THAT project?! Sounds like a dream!

    5. Re:The public is not the client by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      It makes it impossible for delegated authorities to negotiate. Representatives are chosen to obtain results, perhaps by compromise, but to obtain results. When every last detail of a politician's position at every point in a negotiation is publicly verifiable, the incentives for "sticking to principle"* outweigh the incentives for obtaining a pareto optimal solution.

      The delegated authorities may never enact a policy, they may never reform bad ones, nothing may happen at all -- but as long as they maintain a verifiable agenda that never gives an inch, they're guaranteed to keep their jobs.

      * Read: slavishly adhering to constituent opinion and exercising minimal independent thought.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    6. Re:The public is not the client by siride · · Score: 1

      Because most modern Western governments are republics, which means that they are institutions created ostensibly for the people to whom the people delegate the work of managing shared resources and other common civil issues...so that the people *don't* have to deal with all the details all the time. In essence, we contract out civil affairs to this organization whose day job it is to manage those affairs *for* us. I'm not contracting with a software company to build software, my delegate is doing that, and it's mostly between the delegate and the software company. I may later care about the overall success or failure of these types of contracts and demand a change in policy. I don't see why I need to be involved in every little detail between the government and the software developers.

    7. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because the people delegate authority to representatives doesn't mean that those representatives should operate in secret.

    8. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      When every last detail of a politician's position at every point in a negotiation is publicly verifiable, the incentives for "sticking to principle"* outweigh the incentives for obtaining a pareto optimal solution.

      Heaven forbid politicians should actually do what the people want and stick to principle, as opposed to optimizing their and their cronies' political cost/benefit tradeoffs.

    9. Re:The public is not the client by siride · · Score: 1

      There's a wide gulf between operating in secret, and not requiring explicit public input on every tiny step of the process. Would that work in any other organization?

    10. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      There's a wide gulf between operating in secret, and not requiring explicit public input on every tiny step of the process.

      And I said that the people should get "full real time insight", not "full real time explicit public input". The only explicit input they can give is when they vote. Between votes, politicians are free to ignore whatever real-time feedback they receive from the public if they think it's the right thing to do; secrecy isn't needed for them to ignore voters if they think it's the right thing to do.

      You choose secrecy only if (1) you want to keep some of the possibilities raised during the process secret forever, or (2) you don't trust your representatives to ignore public opinion when it is necessary.

      Would that work in any other organization?

      What makes you think it doesn't?

    11. Re:The public is not the client by siride · · Score: 1

      > What makes you think it doesn't?

      You can only involve so many people in a project, and you can only expend so many resources on reporting on the progress of the project before the project grinds to a halt. There's a cost to everything you are proposing. Some degree of transparency is fine, but providing a window into every single detail for a large audience is costly and impractical.

    12. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      That's a strawman. I suggested open government and absence of secrecy, not "involving people", "expending resources", or special "reporting". There is no special cost to the act of recording meetings or holding them publicly, except to people who are up to no good and are trying to defraud the public.

    13. Re:The public is not the client by siride · · Score: 1

      I think we're not too much in disagreement with each other. But what I said was not a strawman. You may agree or disagree with my argument that transparency has a cost, but I am in no way constructing an argument to knock down. Please get your fallacies in order.

      I still maintain, though, that full, real-time transparency *is* a lot of extra work. Some degree of it is worthwhile, but absolute transparency is going to cost a lot and bring diminishing returns. Is the public going to be better served by knowing every word that was said between low-level bureaucrats and contractors? Doubtful. Meeting minutes and the occasional public hearing are probably reasonable, but those are not the same as real-time transparency. I mean, what do you actually want the government to produce for the public? Perhaps we ought to be more specific so that we aren't caught up in the vagueness of generalities.

    14. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Is the public going to be better served by knowing every word that was said between low-level bureaucrats and contractors?

      Yes, certainly. Not only does that prevent corruption, it also allows contractors to compare their offers and underbid each other. In different words, pre-bid meetings and discussions should simply be public and open to everybody. Actual bidding for government contracts should be a public reverse auction, with all bids on the table. Where do you think the big cost is in that kind of transparency? Why would you think that the existing system of secret discussions and secret bids yields better results?

      I mean, what do you actually want the government to produce for the public?

      I'd like to see less corruption and less waste in the way government operates. That's not going to happen if the government just monitors itself, it needs to see where and how the money is spent, and why it is spent that way, down to every cent.

    15. Re:The public is not the client by siride · · Score: 1

      We're talking about different things, as I figured. Pre-bid and auction transparency is great -- we agree there. Once the project is underway, does *every* detail of the project execution need to be scrutinized by a sensationalized public? I'm having trouble seeing the benefit in that. Regular reporting of progress and expenditures is fine. The latter, at least, needs to be done as part of normal accounting anyway, so reporting on it is not much extra work, if any, and certainly beneficial. But every single detail? That's all I objected to in the first place. You seem not to get that.

    16. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      I don't see why you keep talking about "reporting"; reporting is when someone condenses information in order to make it more accessible to someone above in the management chain.

      Any substantive communications between contractors and government usually should be in writing, inspections should be documented and recorded, etc. Just put all of that online, unfiltered. That's less work than actual "reporting".

      Yeah, and the details do matter: when does the construction on my road get finished, exactly how wide is the sidewalk going to be, etc.

    17. Re:The public is not the client by siride · · Score: 1

      Do you think the general public has the knowledge and contextual awareness to do anything useful with those minutiae? Do you think it's actually helpful to the people doing the work to know that every little detail will be scrutinized by people who probably have no business scrutinizing their own business, let alone someone else's? And don't forget to add in a sensationalist media looking for the next scandal, and the opposition party, ready to denounce every little act that the party in power does, good or bad. Your proposal will create a massive boondoggle, and encourage the government to do almost nothing (which is, perhaps, your goal, but you can at least have the decency to come out and say it), or take no risks at all, and provide limited and poor public service. Not every project will be like that, of course, but enough will, as already happens with the degree of transparency that we do have.

    18. Re:The public is not the client by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Do you think the general public has the knowledge and contextual awareness to do anything useful with those minutiae?

      Yes.

      Do you think it's actually helpful to the people doing the work to know that every little detail will be scrutinized by people who probably have no business scrutinizing their own business, let alone someone else's?

      Whether it is "helpful" to those people doesn't matter; what matters is whether it keeps government honest and efficient.

      And don't forget to add in a sensationalist media looking for the next scandal, and the opposition party, ready to denounce every little act that the party in power does, good or bad.

      Good!

      Your proposal will create a massive boondoggle,

      No, it will, in fact, get rid of boondoggles; look up where the term came from.

      and encourage the government to do almost nothing (which is, perhaps, your goal, but you can at least have the decency to come out and say it),

      It will only do those things for which there is a clear need and that it can provide efficiently.

      or take no risks at all,

      Good! I don't want government to take risks, I want it to provide essential services efficiently.

      and provide limited [...] public service.

      Good! That's the point. Government should limit itself to the essentials, those that are obviously useful and that it obviously provides efficiently. If a project doesn't pass that test, government shouldn't do it.

    19. Re:The public is not the client by max · · Score: 1

      If the government is the client then by definition the public is the client, since the government is only acting on behalf of the public.

      No, the government is the client, by definition, in a project that was supposed to be for the benefit for the public. That does not mean that the public is the client, not even indirectly. You don't become a client by proxy just because you are a taxpayer, that is not how projects work.

      And yes, I shudder at the thought of uncounted number of backseat drivers trying give feedback. Letting more people look into something isn't trivial and it costs. What government projects should we allow full and instantaneous insight (aka absolute transparency) into and to what cost? What is an acceptable overhead cost for adding absolute transparency to every project? How much do you want to pay in extra tax just to humor this 'need' of yours? I rather prefer to pay less taxes and let the politicians heads roll if they get out of line, and that the money I pay in taxes go to healhcare, education etc. If we add overhead costs, we should make sure that we save money in the long run. Anything else is much more irresponsible than a failed project.

      I do think we need transparency, to a certain degree. Absolute transparency only exists in utopia or where there is no regard for cost. Even if we have transparency things can slip through. Every project is a gamble.

      If the UK taxpayers see that there has been something wrong going on, make 'em pay. Use your democratic vote.

  10. world's biggest? by hackula · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "World's biggest" and "agile" don't really go together. One of the core tenants to agile is to break things down into small chunks. Multi year contracts for a predetermined end product are waterfall by definition. Either way, I have seen waterfall work just fine and I have seen True Agile[tm] fail hilariously miserably (to which most Agilistas respond with some form of the "No True Agile" fallacy). The most important thing is tight iterations. If a 2 week sprint fails, then it is not that big of a deal. If a 2 year death march fails? Someone's getting fired, since its the equivalent in agile-land of failing 52 sprints straight.

    1. Re:world's biggest? by simonbp · · Score: 1

      World's most agile Zeppelin?

    2. Re:world's biggest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tenets. The things agile has are core tenets. Core tenants would be people who rented a core off you, or maybe people who rent a flat off you in the core of something.

      Getting this stuff right helps people to feel that you might actually know what the hell you're talking about. Glad to help.

    3. Re:world's biggest? by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The most important thing is tight iterations. If a 2 week sprint fails, then it is not that big of a deal. If a 2 year death march fails? Someone's getting fired, since its the equivalent in agile-land of failing 52 sprints straight.

      But is it two weeks sprint down a dead end? For a project this size, agile is like trying to build a skyscraper first as a one story building, then two story building, then three story building and so on. Apparently you're making great progress the first sprint and you have a shack up, that's 1/100 floors done already. Except it doesn't work like that, so sometime around the 20th floor you've got people all over the first 19 trying to build in extra support columns and stronger walls and propping up the foundation. Things grind to a halt and you're not making any real progress. Then the orders come to get moving and you start going upwards again more and more rickety until eventually you find the straw that broke the mule's back and it all comes crumbling down.

      Agile is nice if you're close enough you can start delivering actual features that would belong in the end product at the end. In practice it often means you build the first iteration with string and duct tape planning to replace it with something more solid on the back end in time, but I think everyone knows how that goes - the string and duct tape has a tendency to stay because that part is "done". Of course hindsight is always much easier but agile I feel lacks foresight, we do this now to meet our sprint goals and then if we need to change something to meet our next sprint goals, we'll deal with that then. In practice, there's not time to go back and rework things every time you figure out this should have been done differently.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:world's biggest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But with proper planning, even a skyscraper DOES get built "one story at a time."

      And there's the rub.

      You can build a perfectly suitable "one room shack" by slapping some canvas & boards as temporary walls around the first story of a steel-beam skyscraper. Sure, it'll be one of the most over-engineered one room shacks in history, but that shack is architected for future expansion, which is why those giant steel beams are being used as support members, rather than scrap 2-by-4's.

      If you find that you've reached the 20th floor only to realize that all your steel beams are only able to carry 20% of their expected load, then that is a failure of your architects, who failed to provide a design for a building which will be 100 stories tall, but which must get built just a couple stories at a time.

    5. Re:world's biggest? by darkstar949 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can build a perfectly suitable "one room shack" by slapping some canvas & boards as temporary walls around the first story of a steel-beam skyscraper. Sure, it'll be one of the most over-engineered one room shacks in history, but that shack is architected for future expansion, which is why those giant steel beams are being used as support members, rather than scrap 2-by-4's.

      If you find that you've reached the 20th floor only to realize that all your steel beams are only able to carry 20% of their expected load, then that is a failure of your architects, who failed to provide a design for a building which will be 100 stories tall, but which must get built just a couple stories at a time.

      I think what the grandparent was trying to say is that a lot of Agile projects tail to give people proper time to actually do some initial architecture of the project before people jump into the sprints. Realistically, you need to combine waterfall with Agile methodologies since large projects need to have a solid foundation to work off of that might take a couple months to put in place.

      To go back to the building analogy, if you are building a skyscraper you are digging a basement and putting footings and everything else in before you even build the first floor.

    6. Re:world's biggest? by sphealey · · Score: 1

      IIRC the UK government's last attempt to build a big national data processing system using the waterfall methodology ended up after 5 years in no system and a 5x10e9 GBP lawsuit against one of the world's largest consultancies. Does that mean that advocates of waterfall claim they "shit unicorns and daisies" and their methodology "can't be failed"?

      sPh

    7. Re:world's biggest? by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      So I hired a bunch of guys to put a roof on my house. They started off great, but after 2 weeks it still wasn't complete, so I went to go up and look. There were nails sticking out all over the place, half of them bent, so I asked the guys what the deal was. Well, they heard of this great new tool called a screwdriver, and they were using it to drive all the nails in.

      Needless to say, I gave them all hammers and told them to use it instead. The "new" screwdriver was the wrong tool for the job. 2 weeks later, it still wasn't completed, and I went up to see what the problem was, and there were holes all over the roof where the roofers had missed the nail and put the hammer right through the roof. The guys said this happened quite often, so they had to keep tearing up sections of the roof to replace the wood under the shingles.

      And if you don't get the meaning of that... There is no one-size fits all development methodology. Use the best one for the project. And just because you are using the best methodology doesn't mean that incompetence still can't mess things up, regardless. For most of us, this is obvious, but it appears you needed it pointed out to you.

    8. Re:world's biggest? by hackula · · Score: 1

      Of course, agile does not excuse lack of design. Design should be an actual deliverable and might be the only deliverable for an entire sprint (especially in the beginning).

  11. A modest proposal.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    try cutting down the scope and complexity of the benefits system first.

    Why try to automate suicidal nonsense like the "jihad seeker's allowance"?

  12. And who were the contractors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's the usual crowd screwing money out of the government

    HP/IBM/Accenture/BT

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/130677/response/322518/attach/html/3/FOI%203648%20Response%20181012.pdf.html

    1. Re:And who were the contractors? by abirdman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Notice they've got Oracle in that list. This vendor list is a nasty bunch of international billionaires-- individuals and corporations. These are the kind of companies who want to "partner" with you if you use their products-- one doesn't "buy" Oracle (or IBM or BT) products, one carries them like an STD. Note the three local contractors and sub-contractors who sell to the government, and then sub out to a bunch of bloated global corporations who have no (non-monetary) interest whatsoever in the project working, and probably won't repatriate the profits. This does keep the salaries in the field high. And the government has no choice but to bid out another contract for a plum software project right soon. There's a lot more partnering to do.

      --
      Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
    2. Re:And who were the contractors? by 19061969 · · Score: 1

      Quoth: "one doesn't "buy" Oracle (or IBM or BT) products, one carries them like an STD."

      What a truly superb quote. Kudos.

      --
      bang goes my karma... again...
  13. Simple formula by justthinkit · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Government department + software project = total failure.
    .

    I would love to know how cheaply this same project could be done. Probably by one person. Probably a $10,000 project with the final project size 100 times smaller, run 100 times faster, 100 times more accurate. [That is what I achieved after a payroll application they tried to force on our dept. was discarded and we rolled our own.]

    Future software challenges should take a government boondoggle, any boondoggle, and have contestants try to make one that actually works with one-hundredth of everything.

    It is interesting that Apple, eons ago, knew that some developers were not just 10 or 20% better than others but were 1000 or more % better. Bet this government project didn't require staff to be skilled on Defender.

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:Simple formula by Epeeist · · Score: 3, Informative

      Government department + software project = total failure. .

      I would love to know how cheaply this same project could be done. Probably by one person. Probably a $10,000 project with the final project size 100 times smaller, run 100 times faster, 100 times more accurate. [That is what I achieved after a payroll application they tried to force on our dept. was discarded and we rolled our own.]

      Not a real biggie, just a replacement for Jobseeker’s Allowance, Income-related Employment and Support Allowance, Income Support, Child Tax Credits, Working Tax Credits, Housing Benefit for the whole of the UK population. I mean how hard can it be? Given your obvious talents I am sure you could knock something together using a few Excel macros by next Tuesday.

      One of the things about this is that it is being driven by an ideologue who doesn't give a toss about evidence, not quite the person who thinks all government sponsored software development but pretty close.

    2. Re:Simple formula by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've worked on government and corporate projects and I can tell you that just because it is government doesn't automatically make it any less likely to succeed than a private project. I've seen plenty of corporate boondoggles.

    3. Re:Simple formula by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Not a real biggie, just a replacement for Jobseeker’s Allowance, Income-related Employment and Support Allowance, Income Support, Child Tax Credits, Working Tax Credits, Housing Benefit for the whole of the UK population. I mean how hard can it be? Given your obvious talents I am sure you could knock something together using a few Excel macros by next Tuesday.

      rails generate Jobseeker’s Allowance, Income-related Employment and Support Allowance, Income Support, Child Tax Credits, Working Tax Credits, Housing Benefit for the whole of the UK population

      Whew, all done! And look how readable it is!

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    4. Re:Simple formula by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      But Rails doesn't scale! :)

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:Simple formula by Rufty · · Score: 1

      Not a real biggie, just a replacement for Jobseeker’s Allowance, Income-related Employment and Support Allowance, Income Support, Child Tax Credits, Working Tax Credits, Housing Benefit for the whole of the UK population. I mean how hard can it be? Given your obvious talents I am sure you could knock something together using a few Excel macros by next Tuesday.

      Don't be silly - this is obviously a job for perl.

      --
      Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
  14. Yeah... by Greyfox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just because you're agile, doesn't mean you crap daisies and unicorns. I often see inept upper managers latch onto agile as the latest magic bullet which will solve all their problems with no other changes on their part. Except they keep all the micromanagement bits, discard all the engineer empowerment bits and hand their scrum team a year's worth of priority 1 stories to implement in the next sprint. Good managers will likely be successful no mater what methodology they use, bad ones will likely fail no matter what methodology they use and the ones in between will have mixed results no matter what methodology they use.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:Yeah... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Right. I'm not a huge fan of Agile, but I guarantee this project was ruined by poor management, not people using agile correctly.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  15. Agile is (usually) BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All Agile methodologies really are are different ways of implementing the Spiral Model of development. If used correctly, any of them can work fine. Unfortunately, that's only in theory. In practice, Agile generally becomes an excuse to use Code and Fix, which is the worst methodology and the most prone to failure. Beware anyone who claims that Agile is the solution to anything.

    1. Re:Agile is (usually) BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beware anyone who claims that Agile is the solution to anything.

      SILVER BULLET EXPRESS! Zooommmmm!

    2. Re:Agile is (usually) BS by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      ISTM that 'agile' is just a hop and a skip away from 'fragile'.

      I suspect it works best for a small highly motivated group of developers, e.g. a startup or some hobbyists making a game.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:Agile is (usually) BS by gutnor · · Score: 1

      Agile methodologies are just iterative methodologies, like RUP and the others. The smaller the iteration, the more "agile" you are - that's where the name comes from. It just means that by using small iteration you get more feedback and can change/adapt faster. It is accepted that a methodology is agile when the iteration are less than a month.

      Obviously in order to have small iteration and not be swamped by the overhead required from methodologies like RUP, you need to break a few project management rules. That's where the different flavours of agile tries to do: SCRUM, Kanban, ...

      I have not yet seen a project failing because of a weakness in its methodology. It is mostly weakness in following their own methodology where it breaks down. Agile in those cases can be a solution, not because the methodology is better, just because it gives a shake to the established structure and maybe something good can come out of it.

  16. The total misunderstanding of Agile. by houbou · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To me, "Agile" isn't meant to be free for all. Rather, it's meant to decouple the development of large software into more manageable chucks and teams.

    Someone still has to helm this and there has to be a rather obvious set of goals and objectives to attain.

    The problem I've seen with Agile, is that often, the software is being developed as it goes and to me, that's poor use of the "Agile" experience.

    To me, Agile would mean that the software architect(s) know what they are doing, and have a bloody good idea of the road map to take to get there.

    The "Agile" part is that for each of these goals to achieve, there is a separation of tasks and an agreement on implementation specs.

    Any single team has full knowledge of the objectives of other teams and thus, this team can concentrate of their specific task and at the same time, mockup whatever is required to support their work based on any of the dependencies which depends on other teams work.

    Unit Testing, Functional Testing, etc, all of that must come into play.

    The Agile process should NOT be 'on-the-fly', which is what I've often seen, for that is the reason why we get delays and development costs going over budgets.

    1. Re:The total misunderstanding of Agile. by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      Reading the summary, it's clear the problem is that people are confusing what it means to take an iterative approach to development.

      Production code is production code, and they should never have stopped shipping production code. The amount of scrutiny/rigor applied to code shipped in an agile environment should not decrease vs. waterfall. You're just shipping smaller chunks a lot more frequently.

      All this means test, test, test, the entire time.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    2. Re:The total misunderstanding of Agile. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also you should never forget that it is not just about an Agile process, the process can only work when developing on an Agile architecture.
      You cannot bolt on an Agile process to add features to a system that was designed and build through a waterfall project.

    3. Re:The total misunderstanding of Agile. by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      But you also have to have good tests. And automated tests. I have had "agile" projects where the "testing" I was required to do consisted of basically making sure that when you SELECT * FROM EMPLOYEES, Oracle DB did, in fact, return the contents of the Employees table. Not that the records are in any way accurate, or entered correctly, or used properly, or make sense in the context of the application. Just that the database server is a database server. TESTED. APPROVED. I felt like this guy: http://weknowmemes.com/2011/12/identifying-wood-yep-its-wood/

      And when I pointed out to the PM that this is dumb, and does not in any way validate the modules we've developed, I was told to shut up and do it because "this is what the client wants!" That project did not end well.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  17. What are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Open source developers will not flock to work on a bureaucracy-ridden welfare allocation and tracking platform, of all things.

    Hell, just look at that goddamn Diaspora project. That is something that actually may have interested a large number of open source developers, but even then it fizzled out and is basically dead.

    I don't know what the hell you're talking about, son.

    1. Re:What are you talking about? by PPH · · Score: 2

      Open source developers will not flock to work on a bureaucracy-ridden welfare allocation and tracking platform, of all things.

      I will if I get to work on the 'open source developers benefits module'.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:What are you talking about? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      maybe if you oh included programmers with "skin" in the game (like the few hundred unemployed ones on the dole rolls) then maybe this might not have near failed.

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  18. What happen to CCTA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The UK Government used to have its own internal computer consultancy. This was called the Central Computer Agency - the Central Computer and Telecommunications Agency after it took over running the government phone network.

    CCTA was staffed by a mixture of experienced civil servants and expert contractors, and provided support to all UK government department's computer projects. It had procurement experts, sizing experts, code, architecture, the lot. When these experts were not working for Departments they worked on UK and international standards and methodologies. Some of you may remember the OSI, ITIL, PRINCE, PROMPT, SSADM, CRAMM, BS7799/ISO 27001/2, BS5750, etc...

    In those days UK Government projects ran to time and came in on budget, with CCTA project managers. But CCTA was constantly under attack from the computer industry, who saw CCTA as an expert gatekeeper, stopping them from making major profits out of government projects. They lobbied for its closure constantly, and in 2000 they got their wish. CCTA's major functions were closed down and the rump moved to OGC

    Interestingly the CCTA Security and Privacy Group (the only UK Government computer security organisation at the time) had been closed down earlier at the request of GCHQ and MI5, who wanted to take its budget and responsibilities. The SPG arguably ran the first CERT (though not called by that name) in 1984, and was influential in developing, inter alia, early AV company liaison and security accreditation with initiatives like Common Criteria.

    The UK government departments, encouraged by a variety of groups with ulterior motives, cut off its nose to spite its face. They are now a byword for incompetence and overspend. The collection of experts which existed in Riverwalk House during the 1980s and 1990s will never be replicated again...

  19. Shocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Agile is the biggest joke programmers have ever perpetuated on the corporate world.

  20. Death march by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Agile is often abused to excuse forced "death marches".

  21. Welfare problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real problem is so many people are on welfare that a computer can't keep track of it all.

  22. We know the saying... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    The bigger they are the harder they fall...

  23. Agile is not a magic wand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hi:

    I've seen Agile projects fail. The answer was always 'We didn't do Agile hard enough.' No. Agile can be as foolish a project management method as any other but it seems to have a religious component to it. There were always some unbelievers to needed to be rooted out. Probably they were casting magic inefficiency spells or something.

    Worse yet is when companies try to do product management via Agile. If it's so wonderful, why don't we run payroll via Agile?

    1. Re:Agile is not a magic wand by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Agile can be as foolish a project management method as any other but it seems to have a religious component to it.

      Like everything else about software development, from methodology to choice of language to how you name variables and format code.

      I find it hard to imagine that people in other fields are as opinionated as we are, with so little evidence to back up their opinions.

      (But they're people too, so they probably are.)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:Agile is not a magic wand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably wrote that in emacs, so you don't even realize how off-your-ass wrong you are.

      Typical.

    3. Re:Agile is not a magic wand by sphealey · · Score: 1

      I've seen waterfall projects fail. The answer was always 'We didn't follow our processes rigorously enough.' No. waterfall can be as foolish a project management method as any other but it seems to have a religious component to it. There were always some change resistors who needed to be sent for more PMBOK training or just rooted out. Probably they were casting magic anti-ISO spells or something.

    4. Re:Agile is not a magic wand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worse yet is when companies try to do product management via Agile. If it's so wonderful, why don't we run payroll via Agile?

      In a way, my last company did.

      They did PM via agile. They got their heads so far up their own asses that two years later, when the product shipped, the market had moved on and not a single unit sold. Shortly before that, I, frustrated with having to meet internal sprint deadlines on products that would never ship to the customer for another six months, agilified my own payroll - I gave notice and quit. That was the one part of the process that worked. Shortly after I quit, the checks stopped coming.

  24. True Agile... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you know what you are doing more than 50% of the time, you not doing true Agile (tm). Source: I used to be an "XP" coach, working directly with the authors who wrote all the XP/Agile books (spoiler: they were full of crap).

    Want to successfully build software systems like professsional grown ups do without all the hype and buzzwords? Then read up on "Systems Engineering", the methodology used to build actual big important things like airliners.

  25. Brogrammers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A lot of the 'agile' models reward talkers and people who take immediate action and can rattle off buzzwords, at the expense of more introverted engineers who like to investigate and plan before they act. In a continuously moving environment such as a social networking site, that reward system might be appropriate. In a financial back end doing mission critical work, that sounds like a disaster. So, no surprises here. One size does not fit all companies.

  26. Projects don't fail... by sycodon · · Score: 1

    ...because of the development model.

    They fail because there was not enough though put in up front and the requirements are vague.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Projects don't fail... by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      The problem is the whole Agile mindset says that you don't need to put in thought up front on requirements- they'll just refactor everything mid-project to accomodate changes. Its a wonderful way to make millions as a consulting company- you're never over time or over budget because it was never agreed what or when you'll deliver an end project in the first place.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:Projects don't fail... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      In Agile they development they actually teach that too much thought up front, if formalized, is actually bad. So yeah, development model might affect that.

  27. Unsurprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Agile is supposed to be "the right thing to do" because some self-appointed gurus say so. It has no scientific foundation whatsoever, and not even solid statistics to justify itself. It's just another industry fad. Like all fads, it will work fine for some time for some people, but it is not, and never will be, the silver bullet that many are trying to sell.

  28. IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "IBM signs £525m DWP contract to provide Universal Credit systems"

    http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240105721/IBM-signs-525m-DWP-contract-to-provide-Universal-Credit-systems

    Incompetent idiots...

    No, not IBM, IBM's job is to milk morons for their money, using whatever buzzwords will sell the project, no the incompetent idiots are the people who hired them.

    So it fails, and IBM etc. market it as a failure for 'Agile' when in fact most of their projects fails regardless of whatever BS, they use to sell them.

  29. Vindication! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I took a course a while ago where I had to study agile, scrumm, waterfall, etc. methods. Frankly I thought it was all a load of shit.

    Seeing that it failed in the real world helps bolster my opinion.

    I also changed majors to get the hell out of software engineering after that course.

  30. Agile/Extreme is analogous to alternative medicine by Hentes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Agile/Extreme programming is the alternative medicine of software development. It's a collection of mostly unrelated and sometimes contradictory concepts, the only common thing between them being lack of widespread adoption. Like alternative medicine, it has components that are useful in some circumstances. These give unearned credibility to Agile, even though they were there well before it. The problem is also similar, these components are taken to the extreme and are claimed to be universal solutions to every situation. For example, acupuncture is useful to ease pain, but no matter what the charlatans say it doesn't help against cancer. Similarly, frequent testing during development can be useful, but test-driven development is taking it to the extreme, and it doesn't work at all in for example web development. And like alternative medicine has homeopathy, Agile/Extreme has their own set of ideas that are total bullshit like pair programming.

  31. When will they learn by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it be better to get 5 smaller firms to write it for a tenth of the cost each and then grade them based on user experience and number of bugs reported. Once they all finished or given up give the rest of the money to the firm that did the best job!

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    1. Re:When will they learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smaller firms don't wine and dine the beancounters. The UK govt should simply block all failed project companies from subsequent government work and contract for 5 years or so. It's the same companies failing on govt projects, it's ridiculous. Also very odd they're all American. It's not just public sector they screw up, they do in time and time again in the private sector too. Oracle and IBM totally fucked up for automotive company $CAR_COMPANY after they $CAR_COMPANY brought in a few consultants. Several years later, large projects were cancelled after poor and incomplete implementations and running over 50m UKP over budget. Both companies had the same fix for all woes, bring in more of their people at 1500/day. The game was up after senior $CAR_COMPANY staff discovered the bulk of Oracle's and IBM's "staff" were just any old freelancers they could get their hands on.

  32. Thats because you are not doing agile right. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    If you do agile correctly it will beat waterfall hollow. If it does not, then you are not doing agile right. Because the very definition of agile is "something that is better than waterfall". If it is worse than waterfall it is not agile. Typically you need to ply millions of dollars to consultants who will come in and talk about the Toyota assembly line, about toasting bread slices to black and scraping off excess black to get the correct color of brown, etc. Then they will make all the top managers to stick dots on paper and stuff envelops and write addresses. Then they will point out how horribly wrong and incompetent the top managers are in sticking dots and stuffing envelops. And from these exercises somehow you should understand something and make something better than waterfall. That will be called agile. If it is not better then you are not doing agile right. Rinse, lather and repeat.

    Funny thing, our agile development service provider is something called Rally. Some of the trivial things I ask for takes them two releases to implement and release. The entire code runs on their servers, and they have all the data with them. Still it takes them two releases to implement "I want to clone my queries and make minor changes". Then our top management wants our shrink wrapped software, installed on our customer's machine, who won't show us the data because it is proprietary, to ship with brand new features every three months without any regression. I used to call it insane. Now I know the right name for it. It is called agile development.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Thats because you are not doing agile right. by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      the very definition of agile is "something that is better than waterfall"

      I'm pretty sure you are reading the wrong books.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
  33. not agile, not waterfall.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take the worst inflexibilities of waterfall, the total lack of meaningful forward planning from agile and what do you get? Wagile! It's the new paradigm I tell you.

  34. Commercial Confidentiality by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

    is the excuse regularly given here in the UK.

  35. Risk = Size by CyberGarp · · Score: 1

    There was a study done years ago that claimed that the chance of a project failing was proportional to it's size. Unfortunately, I cannot find a link to it this morning. If this hypothesis is true, then blaming the failure on Agile is inappropriate, as the root cause of failure is the fact that the project was too big to manage. The usual approach when things go south, is to throw more money and developers at the project--rather than scaling it back. A better approach would be, slowly merging welfare payment systems 2 into 1, like a single-elimination tournament. Yes, theoretically it would be more work, but the risk of failure is mitigated. For example, if there were 8 systems, there would be 4 merger projects--and one failed. You now have 5 systems to deal with merging, and 3 successful teams. Take the best two and merge 4 of the five into 2, etc. Big huge projects are to be avoided--humans just can't manage software development on that scale very well.

    --

    I used to wonder what was so holy about a silent night, now I have a child.
    1. Re:Risk = Size by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Not only that. The level of competence needed in the engineers doing the project increases proportionally with the complexity of the project. If it does not, the project will fail. No way around that.

      Also, larger teams very fast become less productive than smaller ones. This has now been firmly established for half a century. Why do these people think they can manage a complex software project when they do not even know the basics?

      I have seen projects that could easily have been done by 5 really good engineers in 2 years. Instead they failed with a team of 200 in 3 years as nobody had an overview and when they but it all together it was so slow and had so many catastrophic bugs it could only be thrown away. Complex software projects cannot be done by large teams. The only way to finish them at all is by small, highly competent teams that have all non-technical hurdles removed for them by highly competent managers.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Risk = Size by KZigurs · · Score: 1

      Still missing the point. At the projects of this side the actual software/engineering/architecture deliverables are such an inconsequential minor, even trivial, matter, that it cannot, by relative importance, ever be the cause of failure.

      The backstabbing politics at the higher level, the requirements and workflows that need to be understood and analysed, the vested interests of all involved external parties - they all are much much much more important than that silly thing called IT delivery.

  36. Development and manufacturing. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2

    Basic problem here is non-programmers in the management visualize software "product" being manufactured somewhat like a very sophisticated assembly line or teams of workers putting together a product like they did before the assembly line was invented. But software is organic, it is grown. It is not grown like rows and rows of corn in a field but more like growing a city from a village. You are not going to plunk down a new 80 story skyscraper in downtown without huge disturbance to existing structures and users near by. You are not going to add a new Lorentz transform based asymptotic wave form expansion feature in the middle of the simulation sequence without huge disturbance. Or add payroll processing of German employees to you American HR system without serious disturbance.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Development and manufacturing. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Spot-on. One really good Software Engineer can do projects alone that a team of 1000 bad ones have a snowball's chance in hell of ever finishing. A small team of 5 really good Software Engineers can do large complex projects in less time and with better results, than a large team of semi-competent ones.

      There is no replacement for really competent Engineers in complex projects. Other engineering disciplines realize this. For software the "managers" still think one developer hour is roughly the same as another developer hour. The research that disproves this is quite old now. For example, Brooks found that for developers thought to be really good by their bosses, productivity varied by a factor of 10. There is no valid excuse for these "managers" to not even know the basics of what they manage.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  37. Never seen real Agile. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been working in the IT industry for almost 15 years now. I first encountered Agile in 2004 and apparently I've worked on 10s of Agile projects since then. I say apparently because I've yet to understand what Agile is or how it actually works; probably because every single "Agile" project I've worked on is run vastly differently to every other project and invariably ends up being a waterfall based approach.

    I'm sure pure Agile is run properly somewhere and by people who actually know what they're doing, but I've yet to see it.

  38. The article clearly summs up why it was not agile by Morpf · · Score: 1

    "'Agile' has been treated as a silver bullet – not as what it really is – just another design methodology – while much of what is supposed to happen with an agile software development project – especially regular and repeated testing of prototypes - has been conspicuously absent."

    So no surprise it failed. If you throw away the most important bits that are supposed to ensure some quality and functionality, what you expect what happens?

  39. Re:The article clearly summs up why it was not agi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words...

    They were holding it wrong!

  40. They are obviously not doing agile right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They need to remove cubicle walls, exclusively pair program, and give 20 some things veto authority over their geriatric peers.

  41. Slashdotters to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As anyone who has been around slashdot for a while knows, it's full of people who gallantly fixed projects messed up by those darn H1Bs/offshore programmers... Maybe we should send those people to fix this project...

  42. Not a methodology problem by Digital_Liberty · · Score: 1

    No development methodology or project management style is going to help you if: 1) people are not telling the truth about their progress and 2) the project has numerous stakeholders (or a revolving door of stakeholders) with conflicting goals pulling the project in different directions.

    From the article:
    "[...] back in September they were telling us everything was great then too: so either they were lying then or they are lying now or they have been lying all along"

    From another article:
    "The senior management responsible for delivering the programme has also undergone a significant overhaul in recent months, with UC programme director Hilary Reynolds being the latest figure to be taken off the project after just four months in the role."

    "[...] esponsibility for the framework is now being moved to the Government Procurement Service – as we've always said it would."

  43. Addendum: by Junta · · Score: 2

    Being called 'Agile' doesn't mean that it is in the spirit or letter of 'Agile'.

    The reality is that 'Agile' is in practice more of a brand than anything else. Project Managers love to apply the terminology to their projects. This does not mean they actually meaningfully follow a consistent set of behaviors, just that they use similar sounds words.

    'Agile' is like 'Cloud' and 'Web 2.0'. While each phrase may have coined with a particular specific concept in mind, they became more hype than anything usefully descriptive.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Addendum: by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      He says he is a Scotsman, but until we know if his kilt length is 1650 or 1750 we can't be sure.

      That said, you should actually look up "agile development" because it is NOT like "cloud " or "web 2.0" at all, it is a very specific set of things that comes from actual documents and books that established it.

    2. Re:Addendum: by umghhh · · Score: 1
      It was meant to be so. Not sure if agile gurus did it consciously or not but there are different project types and sizes combined with all different people in different team settings etc this all means that there is no one efficient and good practice for all. Come to think of it the whole concept allows also waterfall like way of doing things if that fits into project and makes team work efficiently.

      The bottom line is majority of engineers I worked with and managers I worked for could not tell me what waterfall is/was, what was its main characteristic. what was the difference between waterfall, different agile, iterative and chaos frameworks and which of the four ways mentioned was used in last project. They all however had a strong view on all these frameworks agile or not.

    3. Re:Addendum: by Junta · · Score: 1

      I said 'in practice'. In theory, there are specifics. In practice, the terminology is hijacked by project managers as they see fit more often than the specific set of things are implemented.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  44. That is the worst article I ever red by devent · · Score: 4, Informative

    This should be suppose an article about "agile" and the Universal Credit. After reading the article there is no information what-so-ever, except that the Universal Credit project has been admitted to be failing.

    So why is Universal Credit an "agile" project?
    Why it is failing?
    What is Universal Credit anyway?

    Maybe that is why Twitter is so successful, the whole article is just a Twitter message: "Universal Credit, suppose to be biggest Agile Software Project, is failing".

    Here is some more information:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/29/universal-credit-pilot-scheme
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/30/universal-credit-iain-duncan-smith

    Is it called "agile" because it's a "step-by-step approach" ?

    --
    http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    1. Re:That is the worst article I ever red by 00_NOP · · Score: 1

      Sorry you didn't like the article. I have written a few other pieces on UC on the blog and maybe they make it clearer (or maybe not! De gustibus non est disputandum).

      For background in late 2010 the DWP announced at an Institute of Government seminar in Whitehall (that I attended) that they would use "agile" to deliver UC. The seminar was a real Emperor's New Clothes affair as lots of small development companies were in the room and they all thought/hoped they'd get a chunk of the action - nobody (including me - I was just a lowly computer science MSc student) dared to say what seemed obvious to me - that this was a massive mission criticial project that it was a mistake to use an experimental (for the government) development methodology on to meet a political - as opposed to evidence - defined timetable on.
      My gripe is not with agile per se - strip away the corporate hoopla and it seems to make a lot of sense to me. My fear is that "agile" was seized upon by politicians who know nothing about software development as a way of solving their problems and defining themselves positively against the previous Labour government (declaration of interest: I worked in a political role for that government).

    2. Re:That is the worst article I ever red by devent · · Score: 1

      No offence meant, but that article had no mention of the 2010's announcing of the DWP. All links are links to Wikipedia (only one is an actual link to a source, the last link to https://engage.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/major-projects-authority/ ). I'm sorry that is no journalism.
      At least you could use some time to write some background with some actual sources.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    3. Re:That is the worst article I ever red by 00_NOP · · Score: 1

      Who said it was meant to be journalism? It's my blog on computing. I write what I like. If you don't like it you can get your money back when you leave. If you want journalism then you shouldn't start from here.

    4. Re:That is the worst article I ever red by devent · · Score: 1

      Ok, but Slashdot is not a blog platform. If I would like to have personal blogs I would go to Facebook or G+.
      Maybe it's a slow day for Slashdot or whatever.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    5. Re:That is the worst article I ever red by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We link to personal blogs all the time. e.g. Bad Astronomy, the Mozilla dev blog, The Old New Thing, groklaw. Nothing wrong with TFA or its author.

  45. House contractor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you hired an Agile contractor to build your house, he would build the bathroom in one sprint (wooo....a deliverable!!!), the kitchen in another, the living room in yet another, and by the time the project is complete your house would be totally out of whack.

    Agile is NOT a one-size-fits-all solution, but its proponents, having a vested interest in it (money, power, sex ?) don't ever talk about where it is not applicable.

    Down with Agile !!!

  46. It's about the relationship... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    The government is the client. If they are not sufficiently distanced from the dev team, they cannot properly manage the project.

    My CIO laments that 30-40% of our projects fail. That seems below the norm. So Britain should expect this to take 2-3 tries to get right. And then start over Judy because there is a new development paradigm.

      In software, lawyering, and baseball can you get paid to fall so much.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  47. Re:What, it's 1999 again? by sandytaru · · Score: 0

    I think we've found that Agile is like democracy. It's a terrible system for programming (or government) but it's better than anything else we've come up with yet.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
  48. Re:The article clearly summs up why it was not agi by Morpf · · Score: 1

    Quite bad troll attempt.

    It's like you throw validation and verification out of the waterfall model or the v model. Do you think it would work?

  49. Extremely accurate. by Junta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whether it was 'waterfall', 'agile'', or whatever, every project that I've worked with that seemed to put more effort into using the most hyped phrasing to describe their process than into actually developing the project has been doomed.

    I liken it to religion. The spirit of most holy texts is quickly lost in the actions of adherents as they focus on the specific content rather than the message. For Christianity, specific belief in the divinity of Jesus seems to often be more important than adhering to his teachings. Similarly, in Agile, managing to map words like 'scrum', 'sprint', 'epic', 'user stories', and so on to what you do is more important than internalizing the original intent behind those words.

    Projects that don't make a lot of effort to 'conform' to any specific renowned fad tend to do well. They also tend to do the sorts of stuff Agile advocates without using the words.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Extremely accurate. by bondsbw · · Score: 3

      For Christianity, specific belief in the divinity of Jesus seems to often be more important than adhering to his teachings.

      Why would someone listen to the teachings of an individual but deny his most central message? Why would you say, "This guy is a complete liar about being God! But I'll follow everything else he says."

      To quote C.S. Lewis:

      A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    2. Re:Extremely accurate. by Junta · · Score: 1

      I've had this debate time and time again with some evangelical Christians. I put to them the reality of a person never introduced to their faith. A man who conducts his life in every way a manner consistent with doing good works as prescribed by Jesus without ever actually knowing that Jesus existed at all. I ask if in their faith, that man is damned to hell for is ignorance of their faith. More often than not, they actually come back and say outright that the man would be damned to hell as 'the only way to heaven is through Christ'. By the same token, growing up I was basically taught that being baptized was pretty much the only hard requirement, and that everything else was, for lack of a batter word 'negotiable''. Christianity would allow forgiveness for a multitude of sins, except for faith in Jesus as divine.

      Even the current pope has come out now with the respectable message that a man's will to do good matter even if they consciously choose to be an Athiest, but there are a *lot* of Christians who do not feel that way.

      Besides, I'm not confident in the integrity of the specifics of the words of Jesus surviving history intact. He may have never made such a claim until someone posthumously put words into his mouth. He may have made no personal claims to divinity and such claims are really the belief of another. So much of those words spent a long time as oral tradition before being put to paper, and even then there's opportunity for thins to be changed as they were transcribed and translated.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    3. Re:Extremely accurate. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us aren't so childish & immature that we need THE GOD to tell us what's right from wrong. Those who are , the great moral teachers pretend to be THE GOD because that's the only way some will listen.

    4. Re:Extremely accurate. by Samizdata · · Score: 1

      And, unlike Rabbinic Judaism, the Bible was never subjected to informational hygeine. The Rabbinic Jewish faith always, as far as I know, put a great deal of emphasis on exact copies of their written works as a core belief.

      How many editions of the Bible are there? A bit of research shows potentially more than 50.

      I am sure not EVERY one is the exact and literal word of God. And that's before we get into the interpretative nature of translation.

      --
      It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
    5. Re:Extremely accurate. by Marble1972 · · Score: 1

      I've come from the same background as you it seems and appreciate what you're saying. I agree that a lot of 'ardent' Christians are more interested in having people being judged by their theological belief structure (Trinity, Calvinism, Allah!=Jehovah) rather than their actions.

      My observation over time is that the Christ of Matthew, Mark & Luke talks about that people will be judged by their actions. The Good Samaritan as one simple example. And further on - that people who don't forgive others will not be forgiven (the unforgiving servant parable, Lords Prayer - forgive me as I forgive etc) And BTW - that seems to be the only real unforgivable sin - regardless of the unforgiving person's theological understanding / or 'belief'....yet you don't get John or Paul elaborating on that... which makes me call into question their understanding - and/or our interpretation of them. (Just to be clear though - it's only unforgivable while you remain unforgiving. And modern psych / the popular understanding can vouch for unforgiveness being self destructive)

      So I have to divide the NT to remain with an internally consistent systematic theology. Basically I'd throw out the book of John for starters (or demote more specifically). Because I think that's the greatest problem right there (and go with the other half of the early church that didn't accept The Book of Revelation too I suggest).

      I love this book I've recently read called Moral Transformation - and I was coming to similar conclusions already - that God doesn't require a bloody sacrifice in order to forgive - and the fact that there are purification rituals and sin sacrifices in the OT are more a product of the what Israelites were comfortable with / 'needed' after a couple of hundred years in Egypt following Egyptian customs - but wasn't what God had originally intended. The book also addresses how the modern day idea of Christ's death has morphed significantly from what the early Christians understood - and lo and behold - Christ's death doesn't become a mysterious requirement for the forgiveness of sins! God will forgive those who recognise their bad deeds and decide that if they were ever faced the same situation again - they wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

      Again - I'd recommend the above book for a thorough treatment of the topic.

  50. It is based on Linux.... by mystikkman · · Score: 0, Troll

    The project is based on Linux... RedHat is a supplier. If it was based on .NET, the summary and the posters would claim that's the reason for failure and it would have been a success if it was based on Linux(see the London Stock Exchange story for hundreds of such comments modded up). So does that mean this project is failing because of Linux?

    I don't think so, but all the bigoted hate and confirmation bias on Slashdot is amazing for sure.

    1. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Interesting
      There are many possible reasons for failure.
      • you are stupid
      • you base your product on .NET
      • you fail to start a testing program
      • you are the British government
      • bad luck.

      Just because the failure of one project is caused by .NET does not mean that a project not based on .NET is going to succeed. In fact, traditionally 80% of software projects fail.

      This project is clearly failing for the second from last reason. It is also failing because it is not an "agile project". An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay if you use some "semi agile" process like scrum or immediately any point if you use some true agile process.

      Once you deviate from "Working software" for more than a couple of sprints (everybody can make a mistake) then you are no longer doing agile. I have seen so many "agile" projects which seem to define "Working" as meaning something like "a prototype which would never work at full scale" and so they have never addressed the major problems of their class of system.

      If they are "billions" of pounds down whilst doing agile, then they should have already delivered plenty of working systems and have hundreds of happy users. In this case they are a "success" even if they were a bit slower and more expensive than some other projects. If, however, they really haven't delivered anything then what they were doing was an unplanned disaster using "agile" as an excuse for not having a proper plan.

      Whilst I know that the "waterfall" method of development is famed for it's failures. Whilst I know that those failures are spectacular and huge. I really don't see how you deliver, for example, 5% of a working mobile phone network. You just have to have a big interlocked plan with a working phone, transmitter, backend, management and interconnection all planned together. I don't believe that such a thing can be done in a true "agile" way and pretending that you are doing it in an agile way is a dangerous fantasy. Only once you have a working network can you start to improve it in Agile increments.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    2. Re:It is based on Linux.... by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay

      Of course an agile project can fail. Anything can fail. Event stuff that isn't using .net. I'm not saying this was Agile (most projects claiming to be Agile, aren't) but just running an Agile project doesn't guarantee the software will be runnable after a few weeks delay... An when it isn't your project is failing. But that doesn't mean you aren't following Agile procedures. Agile isn't some magic cure all formula.

    3. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay

      Of course an agile project can fail. Anything can fail.

      Failing to read the article is one thing. Failing to read the summary another. Failing to read the comment you are responding to is worse, but somewhat traditional. However, failing to read the quote you yourself choose from the comment you are responing to is... is ... uh special.

      I'm not saying that agile can't fail. I'm saying that repeated early regular failure is a key part of agile. You are supposed to deliver "working" software all the time. Early on in the project that software may have very limited features and value, however it is supposed to always add something of value to the users life. If you fail to do that for a period of several months then your project has already failed and should be cancelled for a cost which cannot be more than a few tens of kilo pounds.

      In order to fail and cost Billions they must have been a very long way from doing agile development.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    4. Re:It is based on Linux.... by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      you base your product on .NET

      Stop being dumb and bigoted. There are tens of thousands of .NET projects if not more that have succeeded. For example Stack Overflow, which any decent programmer uses.

      --
      This space for rent.
    5. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2

      Stop being dumb and bigoted.

      I think you failed to notice the shill posting that I was responding to. I didn't bring up .NET to bash it, rather to respond to someone who was trying to compare it to RedHat which is a system that .NET clearly doesn't approach in any of maturity, flexibility or stability.

      There are tens of thousands of .NET projects if not more that have succeeded.

      That's hardly a recommendation. There are hundreds of thousands of projects that have been based on PHP. There are probably millions of such projects which are based on excels. The fact is that almost every problem system has lots of "success" stories. Many of those would have been much more successful if they chose a less problematic system but that doesn't mean that they aren't in their own terms successful.

      Look at some key criteria for choosing a good system

      • Multiple competing suppliers each of which are approximately equivalent in ability.
      • Open active support market without specific vendor bias
      • Long record of successful projects
      • Full source code availablility
      • Open standards and standardization
      • Lack of proprietary interests able to close down development on a whim
      • interoperability and ability to migrate solutions both out and in of the chosen system
      • Supported by organisations with a reputation for honesty and reliability

      When people choose .NET, they are choosing a system which is locked into one vendor. They are choosing a system which has a record of a number of serious disasters and lack of performance at higher system demand levels. Most of all, they are choosing a system from a vendor which is more willing to pay shills to turn up on forums astroturfing their success than they are willing to solve the underlying problems of their system. This doesn't guarantee failure any more than choosing a solid system guarantees success. However, it can be a single decision point which causes some given project to fail.

      Compare the decision to choose .NET to the decision to choose SQL or C or even Java. Even though they have their problems, each of those systems has multiple suppliers and it will be possible, if for example your Java supplier has a bad security record, to migrate to a different one which is more responsive. That gives a more solid environment and a better chance of long term success.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    6. Re:It is based on Linux.... by recoiledsnake · · Score: 2

      They are choosing a system which has a record of a number of serious disasters and lack of performance at higher system demand levels.

      What serious disasters? Do you have any references that of any, especially ones that say it was because of .NET? Those sound like typical things that people who only read Slashdot for news seem to believe. I remember the London Stock Exchange fiasco, but that was because of incompetent people rather than the technology itself. In the last quarter, Microsoft's Server and Tools division recorded an increase in revenue of 11% despite completely free alternatives available.

      if for example your Java supplier has a bad security record, to migrate to a different one which is more responsive

      Like who?

      --
      This space for rent.
    7. Re:It is based on Linux.... by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      >An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay

      You're literally just saying that a project can't fail because it's supposed to succeed. There's many reasons agile projects can fail. If a team is unable to deliver a working release then the project has failed. Also, if the release works but doesn't incorporate the required functionality then the project has failed.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    8. Re:It is based on Linux.... by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      Agile most certainly can fail and cost billions. You develop a base, get it working. Then you add a few features, and get those working. Then you add some more features, and get those working. You repeat this process for many years, delivering working (really working) code every step of the way. Eventually you realize that you're still years off from finishing the project. Your code is working, but it doesn't have all the features that you need to actually distribute it and bring it into use. You can't afford to bring the project to completion, so you stop it.

      Perhaps this was due to unrealistic expectations, perhaps it was due to an overestimation of how much work could be accomplished per unit time. Regardless, agile is not immune from any kind of failure.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    9. Re:It is based on Linux.... by julesh · · Score: 1

      If this happens, it's because you aren't following a key agile principle, which is to deliver working *useful* software on a regular basis. It's the first damned paragraph of the "agile manifesto principles" document:

      We follow these principles:
      Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software.

      The software isn't valuable if it can't be used.

      Now I'll happily admit that in some cases, this is impossible, but the point is that these cases are not examples of cases where agile has failed; they are examples of places where agile actually cannot be used, and therefore whoever has been running them has only partially implemented an agile process. Partial implementations of agile processes are, unfortunately, doomed to failure. The agile process consists of a set of mutually reinforcing practices that, if any are neglected, can all fall apart quite quickly. This says nothing about whether agile is realistic for the rest of us, because *most* software projects don't have constraints that mean a reasonably-sized team cannot have a working system that is doing something useful within 4 weeks (which is about the longest an agile process will usually let you go without delivering useful software).

    10. Re:It is based on Linux.... by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 1

      >An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay You're literally just saying that a project can't fail because it's supposed to succeed. There's many reasons agile projects can fail. If a team is unable to deliver a working release then the project has failed. Also, if the release works but doesn't incorporate the required functionality then the project has failed.

      No he isn't. He is saying "not(p1 AND p2)" p1 is "an agile project can fail" and p2 is "an agile project can cost billions".

      An agile projecr can fail in several ways:

      1. Calling it "agile" but not applying the basic principles. Then you'll fail in Waterfall mode
      2. Fail early, but not sinking huge budgets
      3. Fail later, delivering something in a workable state that can be the basis for other development...

      Examples of "calling it agile" are: starting to do an analysis round of several man-years filling up a backlog with thousands of stories already estimated to help the development team; analysts that are not willing to validate the "working software" so that the team has to keep guessing for long periods of time;....

    11. Re:It is based on Linux.... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay if you use some "semi agile" process like scrum or immediately any point if you use some true agile process.

      Mandating success does not mean you can't or won't fail.

      For every system there's a lower bound of features where it becomes useful, which requires a certain lower bound of code and thus work to achieve. Until you've hit that, you can't deliver working software, unless you define "working software" as "runs and passes some tests" which, according to your own message below, you don't. And there's no reason why reaching that point couldn't cost billions (at least in theory; in practice it's hard to see how any software could cost billions).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    12. Re:It is based on Linux.... by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're trying to espouse the benefits of Open Source vs. Closed Source, and we've all been down this road before.

      As for suggesting PHP (*shudders*), I believe there's a subreddit for that: http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp, dedicated to all the things that your programming language's professor would have a heart-attack over, if he / she ever actually read some of these posts.

      People tend to choose .Net because not only does it work, it works well. C# is a phenomenally quick and clean language for writing code in, code which tends to be both fast and easily understood. What more, .Net itself actually isn't limited to the MS world, as Mono and ASP.NET do run (at last check) on other OSs, and are free, last I checked: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4738168/how-does-running-asp-net-on-linux-compare-to-the-standard-microsoft-centric-solu.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    13. Re:It is based on Linux.... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      He said something you don't like, specifically pointing out the hypocrisy of Slashdot, so he is a shill. You are proving the GP's point.

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      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    14. Re:It is based on Linux.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Valuable feedback"? The software doesn't need to be useful outside of properly showing it will work with the way it is currently going. You can have a valuable pre-alpha if lets you know something is good or bad.

    15. Re:It is based on Linux.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's just trying to say that successful projects don't fail.

    16. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      He said something you don't like, specifically pointing out the hypocrisy of Slashdot, so he is a shill. You are proving the GP's point.

      I called him a shill because he came in with a non sequitur post bringing in Red Hat when nobody is accusing Red Hat of being responsible for this and to do so (given the number of successful Red Hat based systems) would be stupid. When there were big public .NET failures, the very reasonable accusation was that, by choosing a new and immature system which had not been proven in big systems (and still really hasn't), the IT companies were being suckered by Microsoft. Probably mostly because senior management were doing favours for their friends.

      Accusing a web site of hypocrisy would be so obviously stupid that not even he did that directly. There is not just you and some other guy. There are many people who have many different views. Obviously what one person says about one topic has very little chance of agreeing with what another person says about an unrelated topic, as in this case.

      Until Microsoft publicly forswears the use of Astroturfing, something they have been repeatedly proven to be involved in, it is reasonable to accuse irrational supporters of theirs of being shills. Other people who want, for some reason, to promote views favourable to Microsoft and find themselves being caught up in this should demand that Microsoft stop using money to influence the public debate and should accept that, until Microsoft does that, Microsoft is limiting their right to be taken seriously.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    17. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      What serious disasters? Do you have any references that of any, especially ones that say it was because of .NET?

      The big ones I know about are mostly in-house / intranet type things I wouldn't talk about. There are hints on the internet; look up things "intranet failed" and then correlate with previous big announcements from Microsoft or their partner's .NET marketing teams.

      if for example your Java supplier has a bad security record, to migrate to a different one which is more responsive

      Like who?

      There are at least three major commercial strands of certifiable Java; Oracle; OpenJDK (Ubuntu / Red Hat) and IBM. This is before you start talking about specialist versions like the Java compilers used to make software for Android. You can find a comparison on Wikipedia. Also consider things like gcj

      If you are thinking of migrating away from Java, gcj is great. You can port to it and then dispose of the JVM completely. Otherwise it's got major compatibility problems which limit it as a mainstream alternative.

      Of the above, probably the most important is Red Hat's OpenJDK based systems. Although these are based on the same code base as Oracle, they put the JVMs inside SELinux sandboxes. You can then partition these as you wish for major security benefits.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    18. Re:It is based on Linux.... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      No, you called him a shill because he called out Slashdot on it's hypocrisy when it comes to proprietary vs FLOSS solutions. Classic ad hominem. It may be off topic but it is still true. You mention new and immature, which is a perfect description of PHP, Ruby on Rail, and all the newer technologies. It is really amusing watching you try to counter the truth by spewing hate at MS. Not only are you proving my point, you are continuing to prove mystikkman's point. Keep digging, Skippy, I am sure you will get out of your hole any time now.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    19. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      No, you called him a shill because he called out Slashdot on it's hypocrisy.

      Look; I am calling you out because you are stupid. I've already ripped you apart on this. Let me spell it out again. Web sites are not hypocritical. People are hypocritical. There are more than two people here. The fact that Alice posts "it's okay for me to steal" and Bob posts "it's not okay for you to steal" does not mean that Slashdot is hypocritical. It means that there is more than one view here.

      Oh, and calling PHP new doesn't make it new. It also doesn't make it any good. That is a language which has been broken for years and I have no idea why you would want to boost it.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    20. Re:It is based on Linux.... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      This website is full of people because it is a social/community website. It is run by people; the articles are selected by people, edited by people, and commented on by people. Have you forgotten you are person, the singular of people? When one looks at the articles selected by the editors who are PEOPLE, and the comments by the PEOPLE who make up the body of the website, one sees an obvious bias. Saying that 500,000 people shouting and moderating down 50,000 means there is more than one view is completely disingenuous. Keep digging, Skippy, I am sure you are going to bury me in that hole you are currently have to look up to see out of.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    21. Re:It is based on Linux.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      It is run by people;

      Oh my god. You don't say. Here I thought it was run by intelligent giraffes from Alpha Centuri. All these years of deception. I'll just give up now. Your insights have suddenly made me realise none of us are worthy to inhabit the same world as you.

      one sees an obvious bias.

      It gets even stranger. Not just a site with "people" but those "people" have viewpoints. They write as if those views are true. Probably you are implying that the actually believe those views. Really? Amazing. What insight; what brilliance; a new level for mankind. You should apply to run Harvard. I'm sure they will take you as their leader on the basis of this comment alone.

      Keep digging, Skippy, I am sure you are going to bury me in that hole you are currently have to look up to see out of.

      Wow; such originality; such vision. I am sure that if we searched all the sites on the entire internet it would turn out that nobody had ever previously thought of such a comment. An answer to every question for which the commenter is too stupid to come up with a witty retort. A simple way to do down every point for which the poster can't think of a response. You are a genius; so full of yourself and yet so empty. Astounding.

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      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  51. Re:Agile/Extreme is analogous to alternative medic by sphealey · · Score: 1

    - - - - - Agile/Extreme programming is the alternative medicine of software development. It's a collection of mostly unrelated and sometimes contradictory concepts, the only common thing between them being lack of widespread adoption. Like alternative medicine, it has components that are useful in some circumstances. These give unearned credibility to Agile, even though they were there well before it. The problem is also similar, these components are taken to the extreme and are claimed to be universal solutions to every situation. - - - - -

    I actually don't disagree, but I would think honesty would compel one to note that one could replace the word "Agile" in that paragraph with the name of any of the structured, "rigorous" methodologies and the observation would be equally valid. Unless one has unlimited time and budget, and the architectural equivalent of demigods, the structured methodologies fail very often too.

    sPh

  52. A methodology doesn't matter by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

    If you're an organisation full of MBAs who think their developers are peons and everything can be solved with meetings then the methodology won't matter.

    1. Re:A methodology doesn't matter by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Indeed. No MBA will ever be on the level of insight that a good developer has. As the MBAs know this they consistently hire bad developers, going for the fallacy that more bad developers are better than less good developers and not wanting to hire people that are smarter than they are. While it is true that the number of subordinates you have determine your importance in a bureaucracy, bad developers cannot do complex projects, no matter how many you have. Something these MBAs cretins are not equipped to understand. As long as these people are put in charge of complex software projects, these projects will fail. I have seen it several times now. And no, 100 bad developer hours are not even worth one god developer hour. The bad developer hours have negative worth, as you can only throw away what they have produced.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  53. Reading these comments about Agile... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I swear, you're all the people Jack Ganssel warned me about.

    1. Re:Reading these comments about Agile... by Blrfl · · Score: 1

      Hee hee. I worked for Jack in the early 1980s when he had a teeny little company called Softaid. He had a very down-to-earth take on things, and I suppose that extended to today, he'd advocate picking the tools that make sense. The zealots seem to be the ones that adopt things blindly and hope they'll work, all while declaring those who don't adhere to the "one, true way" as apostates.

  54. Been there, still there by Loki_666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Over my career, i've worked in the UK Benefits Agency processing claims, i've worked in their IT departments, i've worked for the outsourced departments later supporting them, and i've worked for a software company which loves agile (but will do waterfall if pushed).

    The problem here isn't waterfall/agile. The problem here isn't .Net/Linux.

    The problem here is the parties involved. On one side you have a government agency where people obtain seniority largely through age, not skills, and the main skill that is relevant is passing the buck when things go wrong and taking the credit when things go right (really, this is government agencies through and through - not to mention, most people with real skills/brains get out as soon as they can). On the other side you have the dinosaurs of development (not necessarily age, but sizewise).

    Somebody earlier in the thread stated this whole project could have been delivered with much lower cost, with just a few devs, in a much shorter time. I'm 100% in agreement with them. The only real complexity of most government systems is the labyrinthine workflows, but they are documents and strictly followed in their paper variants, its just a matter of getting an understanding of this and turning it into software.

    My recommended development approach for this project would have been as follows:

    1) Hire some decent devs. They don't need to be hotshots, what is being developed is fairly simple from a technical standpoint. Mainly guys who can follow a spec.

    2) Take a bunch of people who actually do the work for real, the paper pushers. Take them down the pub and get them rat-arsed. Listen to them bitch and whine about all the idiotic things they have to do in day-to-day operations.

    3) Take notes of their bitching! It may help if you are drunk!

    4) Any requirements given to you through the official channels are probably worthless. Dump them. They will simply mislead you from what is actually required.

    5) Build the system based on what you learned from the drunk employees.

    6) Demo it to the stakeholders and hand over.

    7) Contract fulfilled.

    Oh, and of course.... 4) Profit... erm...

    1. Re:Been there, still there by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I am absolutely not surprised. Competent people need to run into a lot of roadblocks to perform this badly. Incompetent people will fail, regardless of process and technology. It never ceases to amaze me that people still do not realize that complex problems cannot be done by bureaucracies or by bad engineers.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Been there, still there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've been that dev, on a government project in London. The other key is a manager or managers who care about the project and understands it, to walk through the paperwork and meetings and reviews and interdepartmental requests. I was able to explain and document API's and workflow aht I would directly interview other departments about, much to the shock of their managers, without going through the managers to ask questions. The engineers and hands-on workers were so excited that someone bothered to *ask* that they gave very good core dumps, especially if I spent a day and actually *watched* what they did.

      But I had to get signed approvals for resources and procedure changes and equipment, and that's where the manager was priceless. Unfortunately, he fell ill, and I spent the next year going through *five different managers* trying to complete this mess, and all the political support evaporated. So it wound up being rewritten three times, with specs from people who knew *nothing about* the software components but had a "standard" they'd already evolved. The price skyrocketed, because we kept encountering new layers of people who could say "no" but had no one who could say "yes". Drove me nuts.

      The project was eventually successful, but lordie, it was a lot more expensive with that first manager offline. And this is a very common problem.

    3. Re:Been there, still there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Take a bunch of people who actually do the work for real, the paper pushers. Take them down the pub and get them rat-arsed. Listen to them bitch and whine about all the idiotic things they have to do in day-to-day operations.

      Ooops, you've failed. There isn't a paper system for universal credits at the moment.

    4. Re:Been there, still there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I've actually tried that approach. Once.

      The problem isn't in the use, it's in the testing phase. Because the testers will test all those imaginary requirements you got from the official channels (as well as a huge bunch of "requirements" you didn't get at all, until you saw the defect reports), as well as - or more likely, instead of - the ones you got from the users. And then you're left trying to patch up edge-case holes in functions that no-one is ever going to use, before you even get to the phase of testing what you actually *did* build.

      Fortunately that was only a small project, so it didn't quite get me fired. But it wasn't a good place to be, believe me.

    5. Re:Been there, still there by Groupeintellex · · Score: 1

      and in the midst of all this discussion on programming methodologies has anyone stopped to consider that those most in need of Universal Credit are in that section of the population who have never used the Internet, are unlikely to have the expertise, or able to afford connectivity?

  55. Forensics? by Mirar · · Score: 1

    I would really like to see some forensics on failure as big as this.

    What went wrong?

    Time estimates were too narrow? Testing failed or didn't exist? Project management? Bad programmers? Bad code?
    Changing targets?

    Noone speaking up when they noticed things going bad, for years? (It seems ridiculously common.)

    It would be interesting to know if there's a good method to detect early warning signs of a failing project.

  56. I found RUP to be better than Agile. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

    Two principles were key and could be used in any methodology.

    1) Address risky (new technology, undefined specs, etc.) first
    2) Regular time boxed functional builds.

    If you can't address the risks successfully, then at least you can cancel the project early.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  57. If Agile fails... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Then it's your own fault for not using Agile right."
            But Master, how can I use Agile right?
    "Use the parts that work for you."
            Master, how can we select the parts of Agile that work for us?
    "See Rule 1."

    In the last 5 years, and a dozen projects, I have *never* seen Agile "done right". Agile is the new form of Gant charts, deceitful paperwork designed to make managers look useful and look as if they're "invested" in the process and as if real communications is incurring when, in fact, the meetings are being deliberately skewed and ignored by both competent people (who know better) and incompetent people (to pretend they're working).

  58. Processes cannot solve complex problems by gweihir · · Score: 1

    For complex problems, you need highly competent people, and then get out of their way. That is was Agile basically does. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools", it is right there as the first step in the Agile Manifesto. My guess would be that these idiots went for the cheapest offer that did Agile, but did not have good people. Processes can only help, but can never turn incompetent people into competent ones. Agile is not about not needing really good people for complex projects, it is about having the processes not hinder said really good people from doing their work. Or to put it differently, if an Agile project fails, most likely it is not the fault of the Agile approach, but personnel that cannot cut it. These people will still not be able to cut it with the waterfall model.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  59. Why am I not surprised? by Bananenrepublik · · Score: 0

    So Britain's liberal-conservative government, who don't care about the poor as evidenced again and again, fail to make a project work that would help paying benefits to the poor. Why am I not surprised?

  60. Re:The article clearly summs up why it was not agi by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Yes. By people that do not know the first thing about Agile. The first statement of the Agile Manifesto already clearly states "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools". Those that see Agile as a silver bullet are not even capable to understand that simple sentence or did not bother to find out what Agile is.

    Also, Brooks "There is no silver bullet" still applies and there is zero reason to expect it will ever go away. Are these people completely and utterly disconnected from the real world? Have they not done even minimal research on what software engineering for complex projects entails?

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  61. Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    An "agile" project cannot fail and cost Billions because it must always deliver runnable software with a maximum of a few weeks delay if you use some "semi agile" process like scrum or immediately any point if you use some true agile process.

    The trouble is, you can have software that runs and passes some tests, yet still does not meet all of the mandatory requirements for the project and therefore may have no value at all in the real world. You don't get any credit for meeting 90% of the mandatory requirements on a job like this. The idea that having software that runs and maybe passes some tests has some sort of inherent value might be the biggest fallacy perpetuated by the whole Agile movement. It's just not true, and therefore neither is the claim that agile projects can't fail as a result.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2

      The trouble is, you can have software that runs and passes some tests, yet still does not meet all of the mandatory requirements for the project and therefore may have no value at all in the real world.

      The agile word they say is "Working software". "Runs and passes some tests" does not match my meaning of working software.

      It's just not true, and therefore neither is the claim that agile projects can't fail as a result.

      I see this a bit differently. I take the "working software" bit as it is. I think this means that agile projects are mostly impossible for most things other than incremental software development of changes to pre-existing useful systems and that 90% of projects claiming to be "agile" actually aren't. However, more or less it seems to me we agree. The idea of delivering something that "runs and passes some tests" does not represent "inherent value" as you call it. I don't believe that software is working unless it delivers what you call "inherent value".

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    2. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      There is usually a set of requirements defined as the minimal working set of requirements. If you get a smaller subset to work - good for you, but it's not a working *system* yet.

      That doesn't mean you can't separate the components and develop them in an agile manner, by building a working core and then extending the core to meet the minimal working set, all the while making sure the current set of software remains a working set. It just means your first delivery will be a bit late.

      When you define your minimal set as "everything", then you're back at a waterfall development scheme. Even then, agile development practices help. And I don't mean the strawman that I see in this topic, I mean real agile stuff. Like the boards with current work, the swarming behaviour, and the philosophy that says that building inventory is a liability, not an asset.

      Actually, the latter mindset is probably the most important thing I ever got out of the agile movement. Agile is not "let's add a few tests and drop the documentation". There's a whole set of interlocking mechanisms that make up the method.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    3. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by MichaelMonaghan · · Score: 1

      You are not describing the Agile process at all. You are creating your own version of Agile for the sake of your own argument and getting "insightful" votes for it which I am rather perplexed about. Test driven development using the Agile methodology allows there to be a whole lot of transparency, communication and quality pushed out in a short amount of time without anybody feeling overburdened. That's the whole point of the system. You don't end up spending half a year on something that ends up not being worth it at all. You spend a few weeks on something and everyone sees that it probably won't work or needs a lot of reevaluation and you move on to the next piece of the puzzle.

    4. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but you are completely missing my point. My comment wasn't really about tests, it was about the fact that these huge projects are practically all-or-nothing in their success.

      For that kind of project, you can't know whether you will ultimately succeed just because you adopt some sort of incremental development strategy. You could spend years of development time and a small fortune in expenses making exemplary progress and getting 90% of your system working fine, but if the last 10% turns out to be impossible you still have nothing.

      In short, your wonderful ideal where "everyone sees that it probably won't work" reliably and after just a few weeks simply does not exist for projects on this scale, and no amount of buzzwords can change that.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by khchung · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but you are completely missing my point. My comment wasn't really about tests, it was about the fact that these huge projects are practically all-or-nothing in their success.

      Exactly. You cannot use Agile to build a 100-mile canal, as the whole thing would be useless even if you completed 99 miles.

      If the system cannot be useful until a large set of functions are in place and working, then it is not suitable for Agile, period.

      --
      Oliver.
    6. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      Exactly. You cannot use Agile to build a 100-mile canal, as the whole thing would be useless even if you completed 99 miles.

      If the system cannot be useful until a large set of functions are in place and working, then it is not suitable for Agile, period.

      Thanks; that's a wonderful analogy for this case.

      What is really instructive is to think what a "true agile" project would do in this case:

      First they would start out trying to dig a Canal with spades or something similar. At the same time they would start wondering why they are doing this. Realising they can't dig a canal in a reasonable time, they would instead look for an alternative approach.

      Pretty soon they would realise that a) the aim of the canal was to transport things and that b) they can't deliver a canal in a single small increment. Instead they would buy some horses and transport a small amount of stuff with those. Within a sprint or two the would be working on trying to improve the amount they could transport by smoothing out the path from place to place.

      Slowly but surely they would work towards building a road instead of a canal. They would use trucks for transport. The end solution would be ready quicker than the canal, would work faster, but would have nowhere near the capacity and would be completely useless for shipping.

      As "Agile" people they would see their project as a success: they delivered something of value to their customers. As "Waterfall" people others would see them as failures. They didn't achieve what they were "meant to" achieve.

      Tell me what's wrong or right.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    7. Re:Mandatory requirements and Agile fallacies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the system cannot be useful until a large set of functions are in place and working, then it is not suitable for Agile, period.

      Agile isn't about having a "useful" system that isn't complete, it's about having a system that isn't entire monolithic. If you want to create a mono-frame sky-scraper, go right ahead, but I would prefer to build my sky-scraper with individual parts that have known specs and are pieced together.

  62. Re:Agile/Extreme is analogous to alternative medic by gweihir · · Score: 1

    It is not really. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" is the first thing you need to know about Agile. It says right there in the Agile Manifesto that it is not a silver bullet and does not try to be one. The problem is all those "managers" without the first idea about software development, that think it is a process problem, because they also have not the first idea on how to select and manage competent people.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  63. Remember what this project is for by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

    I have never, not once, seen a requirements document that accurately captures exactly what the system will do. [...] The whole point of stories is to do things in small, end-to-end slices to produce functionality quickly, let the product owner see it and play with it and then get a better idea of what they really want.

    Well, in this case, "what they really want" tends to be defined literally by Acts of Parliament and/or policies set by the highest legal authorities in the government. I know it's popular to mock politicians in Europe for having no idea what they're doing economically, and it seems there's some truth to that in light of recent events, but you don't implement software to automate a major component of your national tax and benefits system in incremental changes with one guy designated as the project owner who can change his mind every now and then as you go along. That guy is the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he has a few other things to do apart from responding in timely fashion to Bob the Programmer's request for clarification of how to implement the national tax rules.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  64. Too big to fail, too big to succeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Large projects never end in development because the devil is in the details. Many gaps get created between the various objectives that in turn become projects all to themselves. Those of us in development know all too well that just meeting a milestone is never enough due to the fact that when given a second shot at it things could be done much more efficiently. The whole WebKit/Blink fiasco is a great example of this. Agile has become a great method for moving forward and not looking back. Its no surprise to me that with enough small holes you can sink a ship. They either need to hire more people or spend more money on existing technologies, money walks and BS just schedules more meetings.

  65. Who worked on the system? by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    "The Guardian reported earlier this week that five companies working on the IT contract - Accenture, Atos Origin, Oracle, Red Hat and IBM - had claimed that work on the UC system had been halted" link

    --
    AccountKiller
    1. Re:Who worked on the system? by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      Oh lol. I'm working at a government project (4th try on this project) where on iteration 3 they kicked out Ator and Accenture. Adding 20 inexperienced juniors to a team sure pads the bills, but does not really deliver quality software.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    2. Re:Who worked on the system? by JDG1980 · · Score: 2

      I could have told you in advance, just from that list, that the project was going to fail.

      Fail, that is, from the perspective of the agency and its taxpayers. From the perspective of the consulting companies, it worked just fine. They wanted big fees and got them.

    3. Re:Who worked on the system? by julesh · · Score: 1

      I could have told you in advance, just from that list, that the project was going to fail.

      Fail, that is, from the perspective of the agency and its taxpayers. From the perspective of the consulting companies, it worked just fine. They wanted big fees and got them.

      Yup. Only surprised not to see Crapita on the list.

  66. Agile doesn't scale to lage projects... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And everyone (should) know this.

  67. A "basic income" is easier to administer & fai by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee
    "A basic income guarantee (also called basic income or citizenâ(TM)s income) is a proposed system[1] of social security that regularly provides each citizen with a sum of money unconditionally. Except for citizenship, a basic income is entirely unconditional. Furthermore, there is no means test; the richest as well as the poorest citizens would receive it. The U.S. Basic Income Network[2] emphasizes this absence of means testing in its precise definition, "The Basic Income Guarantee is an unconditional, government-insured guarantee that all citizens will have enough income to meet their basic needs. ... Winners of the Nobel Prize in Economics who fully support a basic income include Herbert A. Simon,[51] Friedrich Hayek,[52][53] James Meade, Robert Solow,[54] and Milton Friedman.[55] ..."

    Just give every citizen (and maybe permanent resident) in the country a fixed amount per month and be done with it. Probably on the order of 50% of the per capita GDP, divide by twelve months. All you need to confirm is identity, citizenship, birth/death, and banking details for direct deposit. Then you are also set up to deal with the rise of robotics and AI displacing the need for most human labor over the next twenty years.

    Contrast with:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Credit
    "Gareth Morgan has written a detailed piece about the effects of welfare reform on benefits received, including Universal Credit.[6] The Universal Credit has some similarities to the negative income tax, but should not be confused with the universal basic income or basic income guarantee. There is some debate as to whether it should even be considered 'universal' at all given that it is subject to income levels and conditions around work availability.[7][8]"

    Or in other words, it the requirements are buggy, it does not matter if you have great developers...

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  68. skycrapers vs garden sheds by hazem · · Score: 1

    The problem I've seen is analogous to building skyscrapers and garden sheds. Some projects, like skyscrapers, have be complely designed in advance and built to be a skyscraper. You don't build a 2-story building then decide it works pretty well and then add another floor, and so on, until you have a skyscraper.

    At the other end, you want a shed to protect your tools from the weather. While you could design a shed and the process to build it the way you would a skyscraper, but that's a lot of expense and it's going to take a long time. Instead, if you wanted, you could throw up some supports and put up a roof. This gazebo works well and protects your stuff from the rain. It's pretty easy to add walls, and so on.

    Agile is useful for certain kinds of projects and the "classic" way is good for other kinds of projects. The real problem is that people try to use the same methodology for every project.

  69. Government and Agile are incompatible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a software developer who's been doing Agile development for years. I've signed the manifesto and try to walk the walk, and most of my Agile projects have been very successful. That said, in my current position as lead developer on a large State government project, I resisted Agile when planning the project with the PMs. I've worked on Agile projects long enough to know that Agile is not a fit for all organizations, especially governments.

    Governments love their politics and bureaucracy, which run completely counter to the Agile notions of open communication, buy-in from the business/product owners, and team empowerment. If those are absent, then no matter how much you call it "Agile," you're setting yourself up for failure.

    We chose a waterfall process that caters to the government's top-down management style. As a developer, I'm not 100% happy, but I'm happier than I would be than if I had tried to deceive myself into thinking that what we were doing was "Agile." That doesn't mean we don't use some Agile concepts -- we pair program, we do TDD (about 2/3 of the time), and we have decent test coverage.

    BTW, having read the article, it seems as though they were actually doing some sort of iterative waterfall methodology and calling it "Agile."

  70. Who has the contract? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who has the contract? I worked for a software company that authored UK online apps back in 2001-2003. We did the PAYE, SA and a DWP app. Our company was brought in by EDS because EDS kept failing to deliver for the UK government. I spent 2 years in an EDS office in London. I was amazed EDS could get anything done. EDS had all of those contracts with the UK government back then. BTW, EDS is now HP consulting.

  71. Fixed scope, fixed schedule, and fixed budget? by thebiss · · Score: 1

    So, it has to expand upon the existing system, and must deliver new function, and must be delivered on time, and on cost? That's an iron triangle and therefore must be waterfall, and with a ton of contingency.

    Fire the project executive that picked Agile for that one....

    --
    Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
  72. As George Shultz would say... by chicago_scott · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people... Religion, Politics, and Agile.

  73. Not really surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you have bullshit phrases like "agile" or "scrum", you know that the software development team is a bunch of buzzword addicted cocksuckers.

  74. I think it's rather by goldcd · · Score: 1

    Without a decent proportion of "smart, talented, dedicated individuals" you're most likely going to fail whatever methodology you use.
    Problem seems to be there's a large industry (and certified professionals embedded in middle-management) who have vested interests in pitching approaches, not solutions - and however good a programmer you are, you're not going to make the 'big-bucks' without at least flirting with management. This is a good thing, but tends to make people tie their colours to a particular mast.
    IMHO most methodologies are good - some have particular strengths for particular tasks/organizations - but basically they're just common sense (formalized in a way that you can slap on a power-point and justify to the clueless guy with the money).
    A theoretical worker works for a company that switched from water-fall to Theory of Constraints. He was naturally dubious, but after his intro decided that he quite liked the idea (he's certainly been guilty of coasting on a task that was coming along nicely and was going to finish by the planned end date).
    Then the bad stuff happened - "We automatically lop 25% of the estimate as this is more efficient".. I can see some savings, but howabout we're more realistic and just see if this stops stuff over-running. Then we start planning (tasks, estimates, buffers, dependencies etc) and start piecing it together. End of the first day we've formalized that this project cannot be delivered ontime using TOC. So well somebody decides some dependencies can be removed. Oh, and then somebody else starts adding 'programmer tbc 1' to the plan etc.
    Basically, projects fail for all manner of reasons and this is often associated to the methodology. Reality is that it's the same old humans pushing the same problems into the systems, which then just fail with slightly different nomenclature.

  75. You don't really need a magical 'named' framework by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't really need a magical 'named' framework. "Agile" is just another bullshit name for a bullshit idea. What you really need is a well defined definition of what the project is supposed to do, with all of the inputs studied and well defined, and all of the outputs studied and well defined. You then break down major ideas into blocks with well defined inputs and outputs, and break those down into functional units, also with well defined inputs and outputs. You break those down into pieces with well defined inputs and outputs into code blocks, which are then coded in a well defined, structured way. You build test beds to test each block for inputs/outputs and for stability, reliability, security and efficiency. As you connect blocks of code, you test the functionality between each, making sure of your results. You can put a fancy name on it if you want, but that's all you need to do. You know what you are getting along the way, and you get predictable timelines, and expectations. Once the thing is delivered, you accept revision requests (its inevitable, end users don't really think about scope until after delivery). Often revisions require major rewrites. Occasionally they are impossible.

  76. Re:You don't really need a magical 'named' framewo by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    The problem is that in practice you usually can't get a full definition of what a major project is supposed to do until after you've implemented it. It's simply too large, and there's too many things nobody thought of until they tripped over them during implementation. And worse, the longer you spend analyzing the problem to figure all those things out before-hand the more changes have to be made to the requirements because the problem you need to solve is evolving and changing over time. Your process is nice in theory, it merely fails to acknowledge reality.

    Agile often goes too far the other way, though. Sometimes things are changing too fast to keep up at all, which is usually a sign that you need to be in R&D phase rather than trying to design and implement a production system. And there's usually a minimum amount of the system that has to be present for the system to function sensibly at all, trying to release anything before you've got to that point is an exercise in futility.

  77. /.Fuckers, Your Newest Fuck Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Major /.er reply: "This morning .... regained consciousness ... FUCK.

  78. Agile is not the problem ... by MiyamotoAkira · · Score: 1
    ...on this case.

    I like Agile methodologies, although I recognize that they are not suitable for all type of projects. But on this case, the problem is not the supposed methodology used. The UK government (well, that goes for every government) has failed big projects with different methodologies (waterfall, prince2, ...) The problem resides on the companies used and the view of the bureaucracy that they need to cover their asses.

    Once thing that peeves me is that the are people, even here, thinking that programmers are code monkeys. Your analogy with building is absolutely wrong. The programmers are not the workers that do the actual build. That is the job or your make, msbuild or ant. Compared with actual building, construction on a software project is infinitely cheaper. The programmers are the building architects, your tests (be either unit, integration, system or what not) are the formulas used by architects to calculate that the distribution of strength allows the building to stay upright. Every analyst, project architect or project manager on top, is just additional bureaucracy. Especially the ones that have done no coding at all and think that the system they have designed is the 8th wonder of the world. I don't think anyone will ask someone that doesn't know the steel coefficient of elasticity or its strength properties to design the next skyscrapper.

    Finally, to answer to someone over here, in software development you can start designing first a "hut", and then, as you advance in the project you can refactor, add or delete code (which is just an architectural plan) to support a bigger system (first a two story house, then a 10-story building, then your skyscrapper)

    1. Re:Agile is not the problem ... by jgarry · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's how they added those extra four stories to the Rana Plaza. That went well.

      --
      Oracle and unix guy.
  79. It's probably not Agile's fault by Jeremi · · Score: 1

    ... so much as a reflection of the fact the risk of development failure increases proportionally with the size/scope of the system being developed, and this is/was a very large system.

    Or, to paraphrase a quote I heard (Google can't find it for me, alas):

    "There are two types of complex system; the type that started out as a simple system and grew more complex over time; and the type that doesn't work."

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  80. Agile doesn't work alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I've been on multiple agile projects and let's just say that it failed over and over when Agile was the only methodology employed.

    Agile plus Test Driven Development plus peer programming and/or code review plus a solid set of automated unit test tools tends to work. Agile also works best in an environment of mostly mediocre developers who happily code what is on the sticky note. They are willing to work on one mundane task after the next after the next.

    Agile also works extremely well when you have at least one full time "cowboy" who is creative and is expected to follow the project through and regularly identify which direction things are moving and catch when you're about to be boxed in before you get started.

    Agile is almost perfect for database applications which require no new technologies and can be implemented in a single uniform method across the board. It's absolutely ideal for projects where it's just a huge amount of code made up primarily of lots of forms with lots of data. This is why things like "Business Intelligence" middleware is so important. When these types of projects are being made, often the developers shouldn't be working on trying to write optimised queries which require fancy handling of stored procedures for example. Get the project finished, throw a crap load of hardware at running it and then optimize it afterwards. Make sure that no code is written at all without a unit test to make sure that when optimization happens, it continues to work as designed.

  81. Misunderstanding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any project is subject to corruption by the management, regardless of what is the term used to describe their justification for being there in the first place.
    The problems with "software engineering" don't have much to do with software, and much less with engineering - a lot with bloodsucking bureaucrats who barely know how to use a spreadsheet or M$ Project. Announcements of the kind "Agile project failed" are already part of the cover-up they suggest that it is this or that methodology to be blamed, rather than people in charge who should not be in charge of anything.

  82. But why? by jandersen · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I have often wodnered why exactly it is that big projects, paid for by the public, always seem to fail so spectacularly. Over the years I have made some wild guesses, and some of them may be plausible:

    - They are too ambitious. It is a well known phenomenon that complexity very easily becomes hyper sensitive to small variations of the premises, even if the components are very simple (like Mandelbrot). It would probably be a lot easier if they started by making a simpler tool - instead of trying to calculate everybody's entitlements everywhere in accordance with whatever the current rules, perhaps one could start by making a tool that solves one or two of the most burdensome problems social workers face, and design it so that it can be easily extended later, when it has proven its worth.

    - They keep changing the specifications. This is partly because legislation that governs the input to the system changes unpredictably.

    - Those in charge may be highly qualified, but with the wrong qualifications.

    - They didn't spend enough time understanding the problem they wanted to solve well enough.

    - They lack the will to really see it through.

    Perhaps the solution for complex projects is to be found in the world of biology; an eco-system is a very complex entity, but it works because there is room for failure; individual components can fail without endangering the whole, and this in fact helps to evolve the whole over time.

  83. not agile enough by ledasl · · Score: 1

    I think they just wasn't agile enough

  84. Agile? by gidyn · · Score: 1

    For those who don't have time to read to the end of the article (apparently most posters):

    "while much of what is supposed to happen with an agile software development project &ndash; especially regular and repeated testing of prototypes - has been conspicuously absent"

  85. Agile is not a panacea by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 1

    To some degree, agile is sold as, "Implement this and you'll never have to really manage a software project again." Just follow the steps, we are told, and everything will just work itself out. When agile fails, we're told it is because the steps weren't properly implemented. Everything is put on the method and very little demanded of the ones in charge. That's a really prescription to fail; accountability is the first requirement for success.

  86. You are NOT the client! by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    The client is the government. You are not the government. You are the end user of the software and the client/customer of the government.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  87. Cach-22 (Re:It is based on Linux....) by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

    *most* software projects don't have constraints that mean a reasonably-sized team cannot have a working system that is doing something useful within 4 weeks (which is about the longest an agile process will usually let you go without delivering useful software).

    This debate has, very reasonably, become a matter of the degree of applicability of agile methods.

    Insofar as most projects are incremental changes to existing systems, I could agree with the quote. This is not, however, where you find the hard problems in software development.

    Could the mega-project in question have been restructured as a series of useful, incremental changes to existing systems? Maybe, but doing so on a basis of anything more than wishful thinking would have taken some non-trivial planning and analysis, which is anathema to agile zealots (though not, I imagine, to agile's founders, who seem to be fairly pragmatic.)

  88. Just give Valve a call! by nanospook · · Score: 1

    Perhaps they should have tried a no management approach?

    --
    Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
  89. There is no silver bullet. by carys689 · · Score: 1

    While you can use a spanner to pound a nail, a hammer is better. "Agile" like "object-oriented", "top-down design", "structured programming" and many others before it, was just the latest in the long line of "faddish" software engineering methodologies. It has its place, but it is not the be all and end all. It is a tool that must be used judiciously and in the appropriate circumstances. My impression of "Agile" is that it works best on initially small projects with minimal requirements that grow quickly by accretion. At some point in time a certain threshold is reached, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and "Agile" gradually loses it potency. I cannot imagine "Agile" working in a situation where the requirements are the size of an encyclopedia set and not a lick of code is written. I don't see it working very well in this kind of scenario.

    1. Re:There is no silver bullet. by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      That's my take too. The backend calculations can be programmed as is. Those _are_ the requirements.
      The front end should use an agile methodology like any game or web site designed for the random user.
      However, I have done US govt public web sites and they have lots of bizarre requirements. Necessary for serving _any_ citizen but bizarre nonetheless. Serving up a static web page to a blind person or someone without hands is one thing. Serving up a dynamic web page with buttons and options is something else entirely.

  90. Lots of Agile/XP/ failures on big proejcts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read "Extreme Programming Refactored: The Case Against XP" by Stephens & Rosenberg. They have a good overview of the C3 (Chrysler Comprehensive Compensation) project where this stuff started. The XP guys never mention that it delivered nothing in four years, cost a ton of money and was completed with a conventional approach within schedule and budget later.

  91. Maybe This Project Hits an Agile Weak Spot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The strength of agile is obtained when you can develop one story at a time. This project has to support n different government programs. I don't know anything about the UK, but I'll guess that there are interactions between the programs. First you try to develop support for one thing in one program, but that thing needs info about some other program before it can figure out how much, when, or whom to pay. And vice versa, if you collected from them, you can or can't get this from us until you have tried the other for a while, but then this other other one might get you instead sort of requirements. So nothing is ever finished easily, you write code and leave holes to fill in when the other code gets finished, and you wind up with round pegs for square holes and vice versa and a few things done twice in different places and a few things no one has addressed.

  92. Welfare ain't Agile by JimtownKelly · · Score: 1

    so don't be surprised. The taxpayers, by the way, are not the client. The goverrnment is the product owner. Therein lies the rub.

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    -- Jimtown Kelly
  93. Agile! by TheRealDevTrash · · Score: 1

    I thought Agile was the solution to all the problems in the world!?

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    I used to be /dev/trash but Slashdot no longer allows slashes for usernames.
  94. Re:A "basic income" is easier to administer & by Kvan · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately this is never going to happen until the EU becomes a true federation and implements it universally - and at a universal level, independent of country GDP. Otherwise the first state to do it will see a giant influx of citizens from EU countries with lower guarantees.

    --

    "A *person* is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
    - 'K' in Men in Black.

  95. How much of it works? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it's agile, then they must have something nearing working software, functional in some sense. Agile has given them the chance to more easily switch their strategy, rescope, resource - whatever, which they've done. The fact that they could switch back to waterfall is a prime example of its' flexibility.
    It's a witch hunt, and agile got in the crosshairs.

  96. Pareto principle by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Agile or waterfall doesn't matter. Any project may fail due to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle