Early Brain Response To Words Predictive For Autism

vinces99 writes "The pattern of brain responses to words in 2-year-old children with autism spectrum disorder predicted the youngsters' linguistic, cognitive and adaptive skills at ages 4 and 6, according to a new study from the University of Washington's Institute for Learning & Brain Sciences. The findings are among the first to demonstrate that a brain marker can predict future abilities in children with autism."

Comments

Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It's predictive OF cognitive ability FOR autistic children.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[thrillseeker]

That slasheadline is completely askew to the article (and the original headline).

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Black Parrot]

Maybe the editors thought it was an article about dyslexia.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Jane Q. Public]

I don't buy this whole "autism spectrum disorder" thing in the new guidelines anyway. If you take their standards literally, then a very large percentage of people we would consider normal are actually autistic. Pardon me: suffering from "autism spectrum disorder".

Sooner or later, if not checked, this ever-expanding list of "disorders" will eventually include literally everybody. When everybody has a "disorder", then who is normal?

It's these BS "standards" that are unhealthy and need help.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Jane Q. Public]

"Nobody is perfect, why shouldn't we categroize small errors as well?"

Because it flies in the face of the very definition of "normal". Calling even the slightest deviation from some arbitrary norm a "disorder" is itself dysfunctional.

We might as well label every vehicle that doesn't get exactly 50 mpg -- whether above or below -- "defective".

Remember there was a time during which homosexuals were routinely sterilized or put in prison because they were not "normal". Hell, even heterosexual oral sex is STILL against the law in some states.

Things like that are the reason why overly-narrowing the definition of "normal", and defining everything else to be a "disorder", is harmful.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[seebs]

Well, why would we expect anyone to be normal?

Also, speaking only for myself and also all the people I have ever known who are autistic: "Autistic" as an adjective is fine, "suffering from autism spectrum disorder" is insulting.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[theedgeofoblivious]

As an autistic person, I think that "person first" language is offensive. Saying "person suffering from autism spectrum disorder" implies that autism is not a fundamental part of who I am, but is instead something inhuman that should be removed from me.

No, person-first language is something that parents insist on. These are the same type of parents who post YouTube videos about "what autism is like", when in reality, they've never experienced autism, but instead have only experienced interaction with an autistic person. Autistic people don't suffer from autism. They suffer from other people.

As for whether autism is real, it absolutely is.

I am not a child. I exhibited the symptoms of autism long before the world wide web existed, so I didn't and my parents didn't get a fad diagnosis. We didn't know what it was. Everyone just thought that I was a genius, because of teaching myself to read and do math and memorize large amounts of information and fix things, but most people didn't realize that I had severe sensory issues and overwhelming social cognitive deficits. This is not just normal what people call "shyness" or social anxiety. Throughout my life I have had major issues because, far from trying to handle social situations and failing, there have been a lot of times when I didn't realize that I was supposed to interact, and there have been many types of social interaction that I didn't even have concepts of. When I was very young I was considered absolutely brilliant, but I also did a lot of things completely incorrectly. For example, I attended the wrong classes for a significant part of a school year because I never communicated that I was in the wrong classes, so none of the teachers realized it. I didn't understand that people formed networks with each other or attempted to socialize outside of school. I attended high school and college and never asked anyone for a reference, not because of fear, but because I didn't know that anyone did, and didn't have any concept of why they would.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

I much prefer "person with autism" to "autistic person", in fact I try very hard never to use the adjective "autistic".

I am a person. Autism is something I happen to have, that is not relevant a lot of the time.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Samantha Wright]

Saying X is "a predictor for" Y is common statistics jargon. Just type "a predictor for" into Google and you'll drown in hits.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[king neckbeard]

Actually, turning it from strictly binary to a spectrum is the road to a healthier approach, with the eventual destination being that they are not wrong, as 'disorder' implies, but merely different.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to post as AC for this as I have used mod. points on this article so here goes. I to have "Autism Spectrum Disorder." I still prefer to say that I have Aspergers syndrome, and avoidant personality disorder due to the Aspergers. I was born in an era before the internet, and no one had a clue what autism was outside of the extreme cases. I did not form many friendships due to that issue, and when I did I got burned all the time because I was different and did not know social norms. I did ok in school until I hit high school and ONE teacher saw something in me. This lead to me being put in classes below my ability, which lead to boredom, which lead on to low grades. This process became a self-fulfilling prophecy until 10th grade when my english teacher saw that I was not being challenged enough. The rest of that year and all through the remainder of high school I was given more challenging classes and did well in them. I was 30 years old before I found out what was my issue. Thanks to a good friend of mine who is a nurse and recognized the signs of aspergers. Though this process took over a solid year for her to put the pieces together. During this time I was able to learn about the disorder and how to function in regular society; now almost no-one at work or outside of work knows that I have issues with social skills. I read another /. poster describing it as being in a foreign culture and not knowing what is going on, that is a very apt description of the condition. I have learned to "fake it till you make it" but I still have to stop and think of the right response to a situation. One of my immediate co-workers is also on the spectrum but he will never go see a psychiatrist, psychologist, nor therapist to work on his issues as he does not see anything wrong with him. He is the one person that I CANNOT work around for long as I see all of his flaws and want to correct them, but I know it will not work as he does not want to change.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[You're All Wrong]

Is your final word an anagram/typo?

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's the "-1, WTF?!" mod when you need it?

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks. I was bothered by the post you replied to, but couldn't quite put words on it. You did.

I'm dyslexic. I have dyslexia. I don't hear those as being any different. It took ages to be diagnosed and I've spent my entire life working to read and write as well as others half my age. It also gave me lots of amazing skills in return. I don't see it as a curse, it's just part of me, but I also don't get bent out of shape just because it's a condition. I'm abnormal. So what. We're all abnormal in some ways. I'm also tall. Big deal.

You've got a very healthy attitude and thank you for sharing it.

Of course with the extreme forms of autism (or dyslexia) the gifts don't always outweigh the curse. I had a friend who couldn't read street signs at 30 years old. He could beat me at chess, but his opportunities in life were pretty poor. For many people autism is a horrible disease. Just because someone has a very mild form doesn't give them the right to claim it's just being different. For some people it's devastating.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Jane Q. Public]

"Which idiot mod modded this troll? I see not only nothing trollish about it, but actually it's perfectly relevant both to thread and the general topic."

I have some detractors here who have modded me down whenever they got the chance. Not to resort to "conspiracy theory" here, though. Somebody might have misunderstood my comment.

On the other hand, I got another mod as "flamebait". That's actually kind of funny, in an ironic sort of way.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Jane Q. Public]

"As for whether autism is real, it absolutely is."

Don't misunderstand my earlier comment. I wasn't suggesting that it isn't real. But have you read the new "mental health guidelines" for medical professionals? They have made the definition of "autism spectrum disorder" so loose as to include nearly everybody, at some point in their lives. I am very serious.

To me, that represents a great deal of disrespect for those who genuinely suffer from it.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Prune]

And my friend with cardiac insufficiency doesn't have a disorder but is merely different. After all, it is not a binary thing but one that is a matter of degree!

Your approach is broken. ASD is a disorder, and there is virtually total consensus on that in the medical field. Many ASD persons may not feel it is a disorder, just as many people with other personality disorders, or alcoholism, etc., would deny they have a disorder. But not all; see, for example, this post http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3802611&cid=43872315

(Disclaimer: I'm probably borderline aspie)

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Jane Q. Public]

"Actually, turning it from strictly binary to a spectrum is the road to a healthier approach, with the eventual destination being that they are not wrong, as 'disorder' implies, but merely different."

You missed the point. I have no problem at all with defining it as a "spectrum". But making the definition so loose as to diagnose nearly everybody as suffering from a "disorder" is NOT a "healthy approach". Which is what they did. Literally. Look it up. It has been in the press even.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[magic maverick]

Heh, the idiot mod went and gave me a -1 flamebait as well. I've got karma to burn.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Samantha Wright]

You think you're very clever, young man, very clever. But it's statistics all the way down!

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[king neckbeard]

I see the end result being not seeing it as a disorder, just as being left handed or gay aren't anymore.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[king neckbeard]

And I am a clinically diagnosed aspie, diagnosed before overly concerned mothers had heard of Asperger's. I don't think of it as a disorder because in a lot of ways I am superior to many of my non-autistic pals, even in certain social aspects that are typically associated as troubled areas for those on the autistic spectrum. As I became more aware of many of my peculiarities and deficiencies, I was able to adapt. In environments that are rich with high concentrations of autistic people, I thrive even more. Even the poster you quote mentions the foreign culture notion. Foreign isn't wrong, it's just different. However, being a foreigner has historically sucked.

Seeing it as a disorder means that the solution is to eradicate it or to make those with it emulate those without it. If the world were 'cured' of autism, I suspect we would be a lot less productive.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Prune]

> I am superior

You might also want to get checked for narcissism.

> I was able to adapt....I thrive

The way (nonviolent) psychopaths adapt to exploit society by having 3x the representation among CEOs as in the general population (see Hare et. al.)? Like it or not, your disorder is a detriment to humanity.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[king neckbeard]

>You might also want to get checked for narcissism. Nah, it's more misanthropy. I rarely think of myself as good at much, only managing to not be awful Also, I claimed superiority over some of my friends, not the entirety of the general population

Yes, being able to socialize well by pretending to be less different than I am, picking up analytical means of reading body language et al, and fitting in well in nerd rich environments is a real blow to humanity.

Re:Still no editors at at Slashdot

[Prune]

> fitting in well in nerd rich environments is a real blow to humanity

It is if you ever leave that environment and spread the damage.

It will be nice

[Anonymous Coward]

When we finally move psychology into the category of "Legitimate Science" and fully ditch the "cram them into categories and when we discover outliers expand those categories" philosophy of the DSM and most of modern psychology.

Apply the same reasoning behind the "autism spectrum" to math and see how far you get. Say the numbers 5 to 24 are the spectrum, isn't it amazing how 4 is not on the spectrum and neither is 25? No? It's just an arbitrary collection of loosely similar numbers you say? And they have little in common other than being composed of the same 10 numbers and being relatively low on the scale on the count to infinity? Apply the autism spectrum to cancer treatment. Lung cancer is and colon cancer are pretty much the same right? No? But how can that be?

Autism is real. The "spectrum" is bullshit. Soon the DSM will be forsaken and real science will guide psychology instead of the amalgam of alchemy and voodoo we see today.

Re:It will be nice

[stevedog]

I certainly hope the DSM won't be forsaken, because if it is, then no one will have a definitive way to diagnose autism or anything else psychiatric. Using biological markers (i.e., fMRI, structural imaging studies [MRI, CT], etc.) was the original hope for DSM-5 around the time that DSM-IV-TR was completed (2000), but when the time to write DSM-5 came around, there wasn't enough data to define any such markers with any remote degree of validity.

Trust me, most of us (at least those that take insurance) don't get paid much for sitting there trying to figure out what diagnosis someone has (even though some of us, myself included, still enjoy the human side to that interaction and wish it were still present in more of medicine); for many, it would be much easier if we could do like the internists, send you to get an MRI, and get a diagnosis faxed back to us. Tons of researchers are spending tons of money to try to get us to those biomarkers. Jumping the gun and throwing out the current system without a remotely valid one to replace it, however, is not the answer.

Re:It will be nice

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I suspect that even a nigh-science-fiction breakthrough in robust biological characterization wouldn't free you of the dreaded 'spectrum'.

Even among comparatively well understood and characterized medical problems, where you can run some labs or an MRI or something and get an nice graph and some numbers out, there are very few 'binary' disorders. You might either have a strep infection or not; but the only limit on the detail of the 'strep spectrum' is how much diagnostic detail is worth the effort. In principle, you could count up every last bacterium, rank the more heavily and less heavily colonized patients, classify them according to location(s) of heaviest infection, have subclasses based on efficacy of immune response(possibly even which elements of the immune response are active, and how fast they come online). If that isn't enough, you could even start looking at the (definitely variable from one person to another) genomes of the bacteria. Any special plasmids? Obviously, that isn't worth bothering with, because it'd cost a fucking fortune and(aside from a few basic tests for antibiotic resistance) wouldn't change the proposed treatment.

The odds that a serious perturbation in something as complex as the human neural network wouldn't result in myriad different outcomes, of varying flavor and severity, seems vanishingly unlikely, even if you had arbitrarily good diagnostic tools at your disposal.

Re:It will be nice

[Black Parrot]

Autism is real. The "spectrum" is bullshit.

Another A/C sets the adults straight.

Perhaps 'spectrum' is merely a sign of our ignorance - maybe there are 29 different disorders that we call 'autism spectrum' due to our inability to distinguish them.

OTOH, maybe its something you can have more or less of.

And FYI, autism isn't the only disorder with a spectrum. Some have nothing to do with the brain.

Re:It will be nice

[AK Marc]

The point of DSM is to standardize the playbook for the 30 therapists. That way you might get the same diagnosis from all 30, even if they are all equally useless.

Re:It will be nice

[DMUTPeregrine]

As an example, Staph has a spectrum. You can have mild, easily treatable forms on small areas of the skin, or antibiotic resistant forms like any of the MRSA strains on large areas of the skin.

Re:It will be nice

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of DSM is to standardize the playbook for the 30 therapists. That way you might get the same diagnosis from all 30, even if they are all equally useless.

That's a wonderful thing for insurance company billing procedures and VA disability requests. It is otherwise of little benefit to the patient or use to the clinician.

Re:It will be nice

[AK Marc]

The theory is that the treatment for 30 people diagnosed the same would be similar. That makes is useful.

Good News / Bad News

[__aaltlg1547]

From the original article: The good news:

“We’ve shown that the brain’s indicator of word learning in 2-year-olds already diagnosed with autism predicts their eventual skills on a broad set of cognitive and linguistic abilities and adaptive behaviors,” said lead author Patricia Kuhl, co-director of the University of Washington’s Institute for Learning & Brain Sciences.

In other words, they can tell you a lot about your kid's future based on this one test.
The bad news:

“This is true four years after the initial test, and regardless of the type of autism treatment the children received,” she said.

In other words, the autism treatments don't work.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[UnknownSoldier]

>>âoeThis is true four years after the initial test, and regardless of the type of autism treatment the children received,â she said.
> In other words, the autism treatments don't work.

This is incorrect thinking. Autism is NOT something to be "cured."

It is a DIFFERENT way of THINKING. See the movie "Temple Grandin" if you want to understand how Asperger's / Austistic children see the world.

Didn't we just see something like this on /. recently?
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/silicon-valley-coders-and-autism-and-asperbergers-maybe-its-a-new-kind-of-design-thinking/

Re:Good News / Bad News

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

That the current methods don't work is disappointing; but(given how arduous, time-consuming, and expensive they are for the families and patients) having a robust early test whose results strongly suggest that they don't work does represent progress.

Unless you go for the real lunatic fringe, who are shooting kids full of lupron, chelating them to hell and back, and who knows what else, most autism treatment is harmless enough; but very, very, time-intensive.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

“This is true four years after the initial test, and regardless of the type of autism treatment the children received,” she said.

In other words, the autism treatments don't work.

Or they just don't show tangible results between the ages of two and six?

For every reasonable conclusion, there's always a sensationalist headline. Let's just take a step back and look at the facts here.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck yourself. I have a nephew who will never lead an independent life because of autism and another who could live on his own but it would be a great difficulty for him and those around him. You or someone you know may have a form of autism that you find acceptable for every day life but everyone with autism isn't like that.
 
You take a ton of offense at someone calling it a cure but you never consider what that cure might mean to others.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

Which is pretty much what many adult autistics have been saying for quite a while now.

Autism itself isn't something you can cure, nor would most autistics want you to attempt to do so.

The current interventionist 'treatments' are all based on the idea that autistics lack something that non-autistics possess and that they can attempt to change that with treatment.

The reality is that autistics are simply wired differently, and many things that are intuitive to non-autistics are difficult for autistics. Trying to teach such people to see the world the way non-autistics do is like trying to teach colour blind people to understand the nuances of colours. It's misguided and of course is ineffective because it ignores the actual fundamental differences in autistics.

Most autistics can learn to navigate the non-autistic world and the social expectations of it, but that skill does not come from trying to change them, but by teaching them how they vary from others so they can appropriate respond to those others in a way they will understand, and communicate these differences where they matter.

What this all fails to address however, is if people communicate with these children in an autistic friendly way, and teach them directly about how others vary from them, do the outcomes change? From (admittedly anecdotal) reports I've seen, it does.
The only way to improve these outcomes is to throw out the idea that we can fix autistics and start to accept the idea that it's natural variation and as acceptance and understanding of this grows, negative outcomes will reduce.

Disclaimer: I am an autistic adult, and I do not want or believe in any cures.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

I would very much agree with you. Being somewhat autistic myself, the best treatment to fit in was simply learning a bit more about the differences between autistic and non autistic people.
Everybody needs to adapt behavior whenever they are with people different than themselves, you don't act the same around your bos as you do around your friends. The same is true for autistic people (exception being those that really can't work alone). We can adapt our behavior to better fit in with no autistic people, but we have to learn what the difference is between autistic and non autistic people, which for some possibly comes natural and for others does not.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's still not really a 'cure', just like making someone who previously enjoyed sports dislike sports is not a 'cure'. Sure, some people may want the 'treatment', but to say that a person objectively needs to be cured because they think differently is just arrogant.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jockle]

and as long as it doesn't prevent you from living a normal life

"normal"? So failing to live the same way most people live is wrong?

However, when it gets to the point of truly being a disability that causes you not to live a normal/happy life

I'm going to assume you just meant 'a happy life' up there.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm fed up with this stupid political correctness. Yes, autism is a disorder. It's a disability. It's a very sad problem, and I hope a cure will someday be found.
Yes, autism is a different way of thinking. So is schizophrenia. Different isn't necessarily good.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Black Parrot]

Autism itself isn't something you can cure, nor would most autistics want you to attempt to do so.

In addition to the usual "I wouldn't be me anymore", I would add "I (literally) wouldn't know how to act - I've spent my whole life learning to adapt to the way I am".

A year or two ago I asked a doctor whether there was any reason to even get it diagnosed in an adult, and his answer was that maybe it would help you get hooked up with a support group. As a (presumed) autistic adult, I found that to be a very strange notion... joining clubs isn't something that comes naturally for us, nor do most of us care to, once we've outgrown thinking we should try to be like everyone else.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[timeOday]

"normal"? So failing to live the same way most people live is wrong?

Oh please. People with severe autism are highly dependent on others for day-to-day care throughout their entires lives. (Of course the person above confused the whole issue by saying "Asperger's / Autism" as if we were just talking about being a bit geeky.) Here is what it is, not feel-good stories about mild cases.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

You are making the erroneous assumption that all autistic individuals are high functioning. This is not the case. Some people with autism need intensive interventions to simply function at a level where they can take care of themselves. High functioning individuals may also desire treatment in order to better integrate in society, but that is more a matter of choice since many of them can find their own place in society or develop coping mechanisms.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jockle]

People with severe autism are highly dependent on others for day-to-day care throughout their entires lives.

Alright, but my point was that there is no way to say that that's an objectively wrong way to live.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jockle]

No, I absolutely do mean to use the word "normal". In cases where autism is so severe that you can't take care of yourself, then it absolutely is an issue.

Whether it's an issue or not is subjective.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

Treatment for autism isn't a cure because nobody knows how to cure the disorder, but many people with autism certainly would like to be cured instead of painstakingly learning methods that help them mitigate the problems caused by their "different way of thinking". With all the hype around Asperger's Syndrome and other high functioning autism spectrum disorders, it's easy to forget that the few who despite their affliction manage to shine don't make the lives of the many easier.

The antics of Sheldon Cooper are funny on TV, but if you take away the exceptional mental performance, then the social impediment causes real world Sheldon Coopers a lot of suffering, not because the world doesn't want to adapt to autism, but because social interactions are actually necessary and important. Unless you can bring that fabled "beautiful mind" stuff to the table, who's going to afford the time and stress to deal with someone who needs everything spelt out to them because facial cues and other normal aspects of social interaction are an enigma to them? Autism may in some rare cases enable new insights, but it comes at a cost, and that cost is crippling more often than not.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. Normal is the majority (which is what makes it normal) because it works. As a group of people, we value the insights and chances that are created by the outliers, but a society formed by just these outliers could not survive. If autism were a choice, then we'd discourage it.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

You are making the deeply flawed assumption that just because I can communicate I must be 'high functioning'.

Everything about functioning labels is wrong, it undervalues the functioning of people that can't communicate well, and under appreciates the functional challenges 'high functioning' people frequently have.
There's a reason that these distinctions are removed from the DSM-5, because no matter how many times they tried, they actually couldn't find a consistent way to judge people as high or low functioning.

In reality, functional labels seem to only get used to dismiss the opinion of those that can communicate:
ie, "well you're not like those people that can't communicate, you're high functioning so you can't understand how they feel.
The ironic undertone in that attitude is that the person saying it always makes the assumption that they must therefore understand the supposed low functioning people better.
It's the most glaring example of paternalism in psychology that exists.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

My son is an aspy - who is very, very bright. He is seeing an Occupational Therapist who had these wise words ... "the positive thing about your son's empathy is he doesn't give a shit about what anyone thinks about him". The conversation was around my son's "lack" of empathy.

The only issue I have with his lack of empathy is his engagement of others. If he doesn't like you, he may just king-hit you if you annoy him ... regardless of how big you are. His much bigger brother has been the victim quite a few times.

Note: this is not typical of all aspys. You have the fighters and the flighters.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

So, if we find an example of a non-autistic person who's highly social and totally dysfunctional, should we claim that this is an example of "severe" non-autism, and therefore we should be trying to cure all non-autistics of their horrible condition?

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

I've found that it's extremely useful just to have a word for it, because people are a lot less annoying about "I'd rather use email than phone, I'm autistic" than they are about "I'd rather use email than phone".

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

Ugh, you've clearly never met someone with severe autism. The GP, who you nitwits have modded troll, has, and so have I. Some of them can't speak at all, nor can they understand speech. They can't understand tone of voice or facial expressions either. For them, it's as if they are trapped in a world of inscrutable aliens. They're easily overwhelmed by human interaction or even non-human stimuli, and react by going into a semi-catatonic state of rocking back and forth, or worse, by hitting themselves or bashing their head against a wall. They are completely incapable of leading anything resembling a normal life, and become a burden to their loved ones. They absolutely need a cure, and it is nothing like your frankly insulting sports analogy.

But the internet is full of socially awkward young men who self-diagnose as high-functioning autistics. This lets them explain away their awkwardness while pretending they have super intelligence. And so, without ever having met one of the millions of people with severe autism (how could they, since those people normally don't leave their caretaker's home?), they declare that autism is a good thing and shouldn't be cured. Fuck every last one of those twits.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

But different isn't necessarily bad, either.

How about instead of trying to eradicate people who aren't like you, you let them be?

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, no, NO, NO!

This entire thread is fucking disgusting. You haven't met people with severe autism. I have. I've worked in a classroom for them. They have a severe and debilitating disability, which they can overcome through special education and extreme effort, both on their part, and on the part of their caretakers. Pretending that they're happy the way they are and we should just ... what? let them live their lives incapable of human interaction? ... is just sick.

Would you say we should let the handicapped crawl, rather than teach them to use wheelchairs? Would you say we should let the blind stumble about, rather than teach them to use canes or seeing eye dogs? Then why the FUCK are you saying we should leave autistic people to their fate, rather than teach them how to cope with their disability? Because giving people the tools to survive in human society is paternalistic?

This website gets worse every year. Bold, confidently-stated bullshit gets modded up over facts every time.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[bunbuntheminilop]

++

mod parent up please!

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen the Temple Grandin movie, and it's spectacular. However, it is about a very high-functioning form of autism.

My autistic cousin is not the high-functioning type. He can't speak, dress himself, or probably even use a toilet without assistance. He can't go out in public very often because he's prone to the kind of outbursts that would be excusable for a 2-year-old, but are likely to get a 30-year-old man like him arrested.

His parents love him very much and are glad that they had him, regardless of his many challenges. However, he is an only child and they had him rather late in life. If won't be long before they're physically unable to care for him, or simply die. And what then?

As a ward of the state, he will be much less useful to society than if he were "cured".

What if we were talking about sociopaths? Would you say that it's just a different way of thinking that doesn't need to be cured? Perhaps you'd suggest that they have a useful place in society as politicians, completely ignoring the fact that some of them become serial killers (and that maybe society would be better off in general if we didn't have sociopathic leaders).

dom

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Black Parrot]

My son is an aspy - who is very, very bright. He is seeing an Occupational Therapist who had these wise words ... "the positive thing about your son's empathy is he doesn't give a shit about what anyone thinks about him". The conversation was around my son's "lack" of empathy.

I wonder how autism correlates (or, I would guess, anti-correlates) with socially mediated behavior like religion, affiliation with a political party, love of sports, substance abuse, etc.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

So yet again, someone that is not autistic is telling someone that is autistic that you know better about autism.
That IS paternalism.

I have yet to see a single case of "severe and debilitating disability" caused purely by autism.
The people you are talking about usually have one of many severe debilitating conditions that are not autism in addition to being autistic, and yet people like you go around saying that their problem is they are autistic.

If someone has an intellectual disability AND autism, then the reason they cannot function is because they have an intellectual disability. If someone had an intellectual disability and happened to be black or female, we wouldn't go around saying, "Oh it's because they're a woman", or "it's because they are black"
It's because they're intellectually disabled as well.

When you look at autistic people you need to understand that autistics are like everyone else in their capacity to have other problems that are not autism.
This is compounded by the fact that statistically autistics are more likely to have a co-morbid issue, so people mistaken conflate the symptoms of these co-morbid issues with autism itself. There's probably some good research to be done to find out what it is about autistics that makes the more susceptible or more likely to developed these other conditions that CAN be debilitating.

Thinking that this is autism though is wrong-headed and actually leads to inappropriate treatments being given to autistics, and often to people with other severe problems not being given appropriate assistance because the people around them think it's all about autism.

Intellectual disability is not autism, but can happen in people that are autistic - there's likely an increased incidence as well.

Just because the sample of autistics YOU have met happened to be intellectually disabled, and couldn't function on their own doesn't mean that those traits are the fault of autism, or even common. The vast majority of autistics are NOT intellectually disabled.
Heck the rate of variance in sexual orientation and gender identity is more than four times higher in autistics, why aren't we blaming autism for people being gay now too?

This is the same fallacy that leads someone that met a couple black people that happened to be criminals to conclude that all black people are criminals. We'd readily identify that fallacy as both wrong headed, and racist.

So please recognise that the way you are viewing autism is exactly like that.
It's wrong. Trying to dismiss my opinion (as an autistic, that other than intellect could be considered fairly 'severe' on the spectrum) by saying I have not met people with 'severe' autism says several things that you can't reasonably claim.

1. That I have not met people with what YOU call 'severe autism'. I have met many, probably many more than you as an autistic self-advocate.
2. That you are making an assumption about my functionality purely on the basis that I am capable of talking for myself. Facilitated communication has been proving that non-verbal autistics can communicate perfectly well with non-verbal tools. Such as by typing!
3. That you as a non-autistic know more about autism that I do, as an autistic.

I couldn't find a more textbook example of inappropriate paternalism if I tried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

Paternalism (or parentalism) is behavior, by a person, organization or state, which limits some person or group's liberty or autonomy for their own good. Paternalism can also imply that the behavior is against or regardless of the will of a person, or also that the behavior expresses an attitude of superiority.

When autistic adults are saying this attitude and view of autism is harmful to autistics and you need to find excuses to dismiss our views, that's what is disgusting.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[WaroDaBeast]

So, basically, this is a spiritual continuation of "let's teach those fiendish left-handed kids to be right-handed instead."

Thank you for your insightful post. I had no idea what autism really was about up until now.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[king neckbeard]

He's not saying that people with autism don't face problems, he's correctly identifying the issue at hand. The problem lies with how the world is structured for people who are different from them, and that the preferred means of coping with is typically to have them do their best job at emulating people who are different. It's like forcing left handed people to write right handed.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[king neckbeard]

Let's run with your 'inscrutable aliens' analogy. If you accidentally transported a human aboard a Tamarian ship, the human would undoubtedly suffer. Likely, it would be on about the same scale, especially if they didn't conveniently throw English words in. However, the solution isn't to try and force the human into the Tamarian mindset, but rather, to bridge communications both ways. Understanding how to communicate with autistics and how to get autistics to better communicate with others is the solution. Another concern is that a number of those that are totally incapable of coping have other issues that are not being autistic. Being autistic compounds the extent of these issues though because of the aforementioned failures in fruitful communication.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

But different isn't necessarily bad, either.

A statement so broad and obvious it's meaningless.

How about instead of trying to eradicate people who aren't like you, you let them be?

If I could "eradicate" amputees by giving them new limbs I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Mod parent up. +5

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Quoting in full because it shouldn't linger at a score 0 and I have no mod points today.

I've seen the Temple Grandin movie, and it's spectacular. However, it is about a very high-functioning form of autism. My autistic cousin is not the high-functioning type. He can't speak, dress himself, or probably even use a toilet without assistance. He can't go out in public very often because he's prone to the kind of outbursts that would be excusable for a 2-year-old, but are likely to get a 30-year-old man like him arrested. His parents love him very much and are glad that they had him, regardless of his many challenges. However, he is an only child and they had him rather late in life. If won't be long before they're physically unable to care for him, or simply die. And what then? As a ward of the state, he will be much less useful to society than if he were "cured". What if we were talking about sociopaths? Would you say that it's just a different way of thinking that doesn't need to be cured? Perhaps you'd suggest that they have a useful place in society as politicians, completely ignoring the fact that some of them become serial killers (and that maybe society would be better off in general if we didn't have sociopathic leaders). dom

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

That the current methods don't work is disappointing

The article certainly doesn't say that, and it's not true. The current methods are very time intensive and they don't work nearly as well as one would hope, but they do help. I've seen my nephew improve because of these treatments. Unfortunately he is still severely autistic and will never lead an independent, but for someone who has serious difficulties like him, even small things can help tremendously. Imagine not even being able to tell people what you want. He can at least do that now, albeit in rudimentary knowledge. For example, he can say he wants a hamburger instead of a hot dog (instead of throwing a fit because you can't communicate what you want - try it), or that you need to use the bathroom (hence find one in a public place), or any number of small things that most people take for granted being able to communicate, makes a dramatic difference.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jason Levine]

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm a "presumed autistic adult." In my case presumed because my son was diagnosed with Asperger's/High Functioning Autism. As we read up on it, I realized I exhibit all the signs. All my life I felt like everyone else had gotten the Great Big Guide To Social Situations and nobody gave me a copy. I had to struggle to figure things out and make some pretty embarrassing mistakes along the way. The usual stereotype of Aspie's being anti-social is wrong. Aspie's WANT to be social but don't know HOW. And, when being social carries a high level of anxiety over making a mistake (not to mention such things as sensory overload from crowds of people having dozens of conversations at once), it can be much easier to retreat to the comfort of social isolation.

As far as cures go, yes it is a burden at times, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. When it comes to people with "low functioning Autism" (for lack of a better term), a better understanding of Autism might result in better therapies to help these people cope and function better. It wouldn't be a cure per-se. No shot in the arm and the autism is gone. Instead, it would be a process of identifying people like this early on and helping them quickly. The more help they get, the better they can function.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

In other words, the autism treatments don't work.

No. RTFA. It's not an article about treatment, but it says no such thing. "The children with autism received intensive treatment and, as a group, they improved on the behavioral tests over time.". The OP is guilty of binary thinking. They don't cure, but they do help.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jason Levine]

My son is an Aspie and has trouble with lying. In that he can't. He tries from time to time, but is horrible at it. Plus, if pressed, he'll fold quickly. Lying just isn't something that tends to come naturally to many Aspies - myself included. For example, when trading in my last car, the dealer asked me why I was trading it in. I said that I thought it had a bad transmission. In truth, we did think that, but it could have been any number of things and the car was so old that we just decided to get a new one. But I blurted out the "bad transmission" without any consideration to how that would be taken. It was just the truth. It was only afterward that I realized that saying that probably lowered my trade-in value.

Just as Aspie's often can't lie, we'll frequently act as though everyone else acts the same way. (Thus "taking people at face value.") Add in an inability to recognize sarcasm and you can see how navigating certain social situations can be difficult.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[__aaltlg1547]

No, the problem is NOT how the world is structured. It is that autistic people are disabled with a brain disorder we can't fix, and the "treatments" are, to date, largely ineffective at helping them deal with their disability. But there are plenty of people who are out there selling snake oil to their desperate parents.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Autism itself isn't something you can cure, nor would most autistics want you to attempt to do so.

Since you're making clear and expressive posts here, you are obviously a very high functioning autistic person. Since you can say you don't want it, it's obvious that it would be beyond unethical to "cure" you (assuming there was a cure). Nor can I see any reason that it would be necessary or even desirable. That is not even close to the same situation as with low functioning autistic people.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[hammyhew]

I disagree. Normal is the majority (which is what makes it normal) because it works [for survival].

Whether or not survival is important is subjective.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Attila Dimedici]

The problem is that that all depends on the level of autism. My sister works with children with severe autism. If they could be taught to function in the wider world, she would do so. Some of the children she works with cannot even be taught to use the bathroom. Other children where she works can be taught to a higher level of ability to function they are in other classes where she works.
There is a reason it is called a "spectrum" because some people exhibit it in milder forms than others. I suspect that autism is somewhat like the gene that causes sickle cell anemia (except with a smoother gradation between functional and nonfunctional forms) in that in its milder forms it provides an advantage to those who have it in certain settings (the gene for sickle cell anemia provides resistance to malaria).
So, while it seems like we would be losing something of value if we completely eliminated all aspects of autism, it would be valuable if we could find a way to make the most dysfunctional more able to function independently.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

The distinction between high and low functioning autism is at best misleading, and in most cases simply wrong.

It also frequently ignores gender difference in autistic expression (I am female) and conflates co-morbid conditions with autism.

Someone that is intellectually disabled and autistic will likely have serious problems with day to day functioning, just like any non-autistic with an intellectual disability.

In every case I have seen where (typically by parents) autism has been blamed as the case, they neglect to mention the child is also intellectually disabled, or has some other serious disability that would make a non-autistic unable to function as well.

The correct approach is to recognise that in these people you cannot treat their autism, just as you cannot in me. You need to address the co-morbid condition that causes the serious issues.
The fact they are autistic makes this more complicated and perhaps much harder, because their autistic traits make conventional approaches to dealing with those other conditions not work.

Just like the typical methods to socially teach me don't work, because I am autistic - the typical treatments for many other conditions don't work if the individual is autistic.

What tends to happen is that instead of correctly labelling these issues as intersectional disabilities the parents and the assortment of autism treatment 'gurus' will blame it all on autism.

When what it really means is that is you know someone is autistic, then you need to throw out the manual for any other co-morbid conditions, because half of it is wrong for autistics.

If there were a cure for intellectual disabilities and you gave it to such 'low functioning' people, you'd find they are still autistic, just like the (significant majority) of autistics that are called 'high functioning'.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

The people you are talking about usually have one of many severe debilitating conditions that are not autism in addition to being autistic, and yet people like you go around saying that their problem is they are autistic.

You're trying to define away the idea that severe autism can be debilitating. Basically "if it's a fundamental problem, then it isn't part of autism". Yes autism, like almost everything else in DSM N, is very far from being well defined. However, by playing games with words and categories, you're making that worse. DSM N may suck, but one way to look at it is that it's a dictionary (yes, I know there are many ramifications beyond that). As such it provides a widely accepted definition for terms. By re-defining autism you add to the confusion. If you want to use your own term then make something up.

There are many things where a certain amount just makes you different, but too much can be debilitating. For example, what's difference between being moody and being manic-depressive? Degree. Some would argue otherwise, but since the etiology is unknown, I think that's nonsense.

Intellectual disability is not autism, but can happen in people that are autistic - there's likely an increased incidence as well.

"Likely an increased incidence" is a vast understatement. Moreover the intellectual disabilities that severely autistic people display are often different in nature from those seen in non-autistic people. For example, people with autism usually have much greater difficulties with language than non-autistic but mentally disabled people who function at the same level on non-verbal tasks (alternatively you could say that the autistic people with the same degree of language difficulty perform much better at non-verbal tasks).

Facilitated communication has been proving that non-verbal autistics can communicate perfectly well with non-verbal tools. Such as by typing!

Some non-verbal autistics. There is a difference between verbal and language difficulties. For those who only have the former, typing is great. For the latter, not as much. There are also those in-between. For example, my nephew can speak and understand verbal language, but does better with written language. Unfortunately he's still far from communicating fluently even in writing.

That you as a non-autistic know more about autism that I do, as an autistic.

While probably not true of anyone on Slashdot, there are almost certainly people who know more about autism in a clinical and neurological sense than you do. What you know better than anyone who is not autistic is the experience of being autistic. Undoubtedly you've also learned a great deal about the other aspects. However, saying that you know more about it than non-autistics is like saying a tall person knows more about being tall than an endocrinologist.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

In other words, the autism treatments don't work.

Only if your thinking is purely binary.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Alright, but my point was that there is no way to say that that's an objectively wrong way to live.

Screw objective, I'm not into philosophy anyway. If someone can't take care of themselves as an adult, then they have a disability that it would be better to cure or at least ameliorate. If they can take care of themselves and don't want to change how they are, then they're eccentric. I'm all for eccentricity - Charles Dickens complained about its decline.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Attila Dimedici]

That's great for you. What about those who suffer from autism to such a degree that they cannot even be taught to use a toilet? Should they be left in that condition because you have learned to cope with your differences? What you are suggesting is that we should just give up on those that cannot be taught to function in society, so as to avoid threatening the comfortable world you have built for yourself. The fact of the matter is that while the deleterious effects of autism can be ameliorated by proper training (both of the caretaker and the "victim") there are many people who even after such amelioration still cannot function independently.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

You are making the deeply flawed assumption that just because I can communicate I must be 'high functioning'.

It's not an assumption. Anyone who can communicate as well as you clearly is high functioning in at least one very important way. I would be thrilled if I could have a debate like this with my nephew.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

You're trying to define away the idea that severe autism can be debilitating. Basically "if it's a fundamental problem, then it isn't part of autism". Yes autism, like almost everything else in DSM N, is very far from being well defined. However, by playing games with words and categories, you're making that worse. DSM N may suck, but one way to look at it is that it's a dictionary (yes, I know there are many ramifications beyond that). As such it provides a widely accepted definition for terms. By re-defining autism you add to the confusion. If you want to use your own term then make something up.

There are many things where a certain amount just makes you different, but too much can be debilitating. For example, what's difference between being moody and being manic-depressive? Degree. Some would argue otherwise, but since the etiology is unknown, I think that's nonsense.

This is absolutely true and I do not at all deny that some traits can cause significant issues if they are 'too different'.
I am very much in that box myself, with several relatively severe traits that prevent me from doing a lot of things.

Mostly these are environmental things (for me) that can be mitigated if others are willing to play nice.
Some (such as non-verbal autistics) can be a bit harder to over come and can still be very readily identified as autistic traits.

I am mostly rejecting the idea that intellectual disability and a number of other conditions that also happen in non autistics should be attributed to autism. They almost always are when the person is autistic, this is the incorrect step.

That there actually exist some problematic autistic traits is not something I would deny, I agree entirely.

"Likely an increased incidence" is a vast understatement. Moreover the intellectual disabilities that severely autistic people display are often different in nature from those seen in non-autistic people. For example, people with autism usually have much greater difficulties with language than non-autistic but mentally disabled people who function at the same level on non-verbal tasks (alternatively you could say that the autistic people with the same degree of language difficulty perform much better at non-verbal tasks).

Studies are now showing that the vast majority of autistics do not suffer from these intellectual disabilities. I will agree that autistics are overrepresented in those other disability groups though, so there's a definite co-morbidity source going on that would be interesting to find, if for no other reason than it may help treat those other conditions that autistics are more susceptible to.

And yes, as I stated elsewhere, autistics absolutely do express other disabilities in different ways, the the fact someone is autistic is vital to how you approach the treatment of those other concerns.

Some non-verbal autistics. There is a difference between verbal and language difficulties. For those who only have the former, typing is great. For the latter, not as much. There are also those in-between. For example, my nephew can speak and understand verbal language, but does better with written language. Unfortunately he's still far from communicating fluently even in writing.

The use of speech versus non-use (ie, non-verbal not language difficulty) is definitely something that appears to be autism linked, and I'd describe it as an autistic trait. Put me in an unfamiliar situation and I have literally found myself unable to speak. Mouth moves, words get lost. It's a very surreal experience when you're used to speaking your mind. :p

Actual language difficulties are associated with intellectual disabilities. Being autistic as well might make that language difficulty very complicated, but it's not just autism at play, it's multiple disabilities intersecting to cause unpredictable results.

While probably not true

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

That is a very very narrow definition of 'high functioning', and it very NT-centric.

"Oh you can communicate with NT people, you are so high functioning".
It's a value judgement on the capacity of people different to the people making the judgement.

If you knew how much difficulty I had with day-to-day tasks and the amount of external assistance I have relied on most of my life, you might start to question the idea that placing a functional label on me is at all useful, or accurate.

My capacity to communicate is not at all connected to my capacity to be an independently function person. It was not until after diagnosis (as an adult) and serious relearning of basically everything that I've managed to be... Kinda functional. lol
What many do not appreciate is that those functional problems are very severe for me, despite having a very high intellect, and good communication skills. You have not seen severe executive dysfunction until you've met me. Coupled with severe anxiety problems, and a long history of bad experiences due to misunderstandings and just making sure I have food in the pantry can sometimes be a gold star worthy task for me.
I didn't learn to resolve these issues until I was taught how to do them different, as an autistic.
And even then, I'm still learning, and not terribly good at these things.

Discounting how serious my functional problems have been doesn't at all help anyone.
By most accounts, if you exclude 'can talk' as a criteria, I am what others would call 'severe'.
Autism is more complicated than "can speak to others" or "can't speak to others".

Functional labels hurt the 'low functioning' by assuming they cannot do things that they could do, if they were taught different ways, given different environments or provided alternatives.
They also hurt the 'high functioning' by discarding their lived experiences as not relevant, assuming they can do things they cannot actually do, and failing to attempt to teach them different ways because 'if they just try harder they can do it'.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[thunderclap]

True. And thats the problem with spectrum. Sheldon Cooper doesn't have autism. He has Aspergers. Thats a socialization disorder. In laymans terms he missed the basic social cues but he is so intelligent in other areas he compensates for it. yet those are basic so he looks foolish. Austim is a debilitating disease that strips away basic human higher functions. Its is more akin to blindness. They can't process stimuli correctly. So they can't communicate. High function ones can. This is the core problem. You can't mix the too. The media and those clueless do this all the time. Its annoying.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[thunderclap]

No, autism isn't a different way of thinking, Aspergers is. Autism is a failure to process information. Aspergers is processing differently. One is a book with empty pages shaped without corners. The other is shakesphere in Klingon.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

I'm not sure how many "many" is. I've encountered exactly one, and she was a victim of severe ongoing emotional abuse. It's a lot like the large number of people who want to be "cured" of being gay because everyone around them is a dick to them about it.

Take away the abuse, the problem goes away.

Hint: I've met dozens of autistics. All of them had learned to do social interaction things at least somewhat. The ones who had the hardest time weren't "more autistic", they were victims of parents who didn't bother to explain anything to them.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

This is ... basically completely wrong. The sum total of the diagnostic difference between autism and asperger's in the DSM-IV was early language acquisition. That's it. There were no other real differences.

I don't "have asperger's". I'm autistic. Insisting that only people who can't process information are "really" autistic is pretty much pointless. That's not what the word means, and it's pretty insulting for you to sit around declaring what the terms "really" mean. Are you an actual qualified psychologist? No? Then why exactly do you suddenly feel qualified to dispute the diagnoses of the professionals so aggressively?

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

Well, that's the thing. "Different isn't necessarily good" is also so broad and obvious that it's meaningless.

The amputees case is significantly different in a key respect: People who have a limb amputated aren't suddenly a different person.

The rest of the body is what you have; the brain is who you are. I think people are entitled to a vote in whether they want to exist or not.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

Well, actually, yes, lots of people who appear to have the brain mechanics of "sociopaths" are, in fact, extremely useful to society. If we completely eradicated those traits, we'd lose a lot of very useful people. The question is whether they learn coping skills that allow them to adapt.

Your cousin's situation sucks, but you're making a big leap when you assert that that is all "autism", and not some mix of autism, other cognitive disorders, or just plain mistakes made in raising him. Lots of autistic people are totally dysfunctional when no one has taught them usable skills.

A lot of kids who were believed to be "nonverbal and incapable of learning language" turn out to be perfectly able to read and write. Give them a keyboard or a pen and paper, and suddenly they're not only capable of communicating, but obviously quite smart. Give them these tools early, they grow up "high-functioning". Deny them these tools and torture them to try to make them stop waving their hands around, they grow up incapacitated.

The bulk of the problem there isn't the kids, it's the people trying to break them. Sometimes, you try to break people, they end up broken.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

The big concern is whether it's possible to make the most dysfunctional more functional without eliminating the entire category.

Considering the number of places in the world that people still kill female babies because they want a boy, I would guess the answer is "probably not".

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

No no no yourself.

What's disgusting is that because you hate people and look down on them, you insist that the people who didn't get screwed over by your hostility don't count, and aren't "real". And you may say you don't hate people, but your massive disgust reaction, and total failure to read what people are saying, are exactly what a bigoted response looks like. Your brain has shut down because Disgusting Things.

What makes you so sure we haven't met people with "severe" autism? Only your self-referential assertion that anyone who's functional must have non-severe autism. But your very narrow experience is not the whole of reality. People who actually work with a whole lot of people on the autism spectrum quickly conclude that "severe autism" is not the distinguishing factor. It's not "more or less autistic". There's degrees of many different traits. There's other factors. Some people who are autistic also have ADHD. Some don't. Some might have OCD, or bipolar disorder. All of these things result in different outcomes. So does shitty parenting.

Most importantly, the entire point of all the posts you are so smugly condemning is that we should teach people how to cope with their disability. See, no one argues against that. We are all in favor of it.

What we are opposed to is the idea of "curing" us. Which is not at all the same thing as "teaching us the skills we need".

Here's the thing. I am, in fact, happy the way I am. I'm super happy. I'm happy because, rather than trying to break me and make me into something totally different, people taught me coping skills and worked with me.

So shut the fuck up. You are arguing against a non-existent strawman. No one's arguing against helping autistics cope by teaching them useful skills.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

A tall person may well know a heck of a lot more about the experience of being tall than an endocrinologist, and might be better qualified to speak to the question of whether we should try to eliminate all tallness from our population because it's so debilitating.

The problem with the "severe autism is horrible" thing is that it's not really a useful claim. It's more useful to look at individual cases, where in general we find that the "severe" problem isn't autism per se, except sometimes maybe it is. But!

The real use of the claim isn't in treatment. It's political. It's a way for our anonymous coward to, safely protected from any criticism or reflection on the rest of his life, try to get all the people who have actual hands-on experience of what we are talking about silenced, by saying we don't count, and we aren't real, and we aren't what's being talked about.

Imagine that someone claimed that sickle-cell anemia was being "severely black", and insisted that all the black people who have normal blood cells shut up about so-called "racism" because they don't know what it's like to be "severely black".

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

So what you're saying is:

Anyone who is autistic and can communicate is not entitled to an opinion on whether being autistic sucks.

Think this through. Is that really a viable way to evaluate something? Keep in mind that vast numbers of autistics who "can't communicate" actually turn out to be able to once someone lets them.

I know someone who worked with some autistic kids. Non-verbal, "severe" autism, all that. They got a computer in the classroom, and she discovered: One of the kids could quite consistently enter "y" or "n" to answer questions. He had never demonstrated any ability to communicate before, and suddenly she could get clear information from him. So she showed this to the supervisor of the class, who said it was just chance events, and the kid couldn't communicate, and stop wasting my time.

In a universe where your attitude didn't exist, that might have gone differently, and the kid might have been taught to read, write, and communicate effectively. But instead, the supervisor categorized people as "high functioning" or "not high functioning" and the opportunity was missed.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

And again, you assert that we aren't entitled to opinions if we can talk.

Problem is: If there's a "cure", we'll be cured before we even exist. No one's gonna wait and find out whether we can talk before they murder us.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

I was talking with a friend, who points out that there are people whose disconnect from their nervous system is severe enough that they have trouble controlling bowel movements, who can write clearly about it.

The assumption that anyone who can communicate is "high functioning" in a way that prevents them from having relevant opinions is just your attempt to split all the people whose humanity you'd have to acknowledge out from the people you're saying shouldn't exist and don't have opinions.

Seriously. Just... maybe let the people who have any experience at all be heard? Maybe don't just immediately jump in to shut us down, asserting that either we're too disabled for our opinions to count, or that we're too opinionated to count as disabled? You've got no skin in this game. How about you stop trying to make major life decisions for people you are not only unwilling to listen to, but are so hostile to that when you do accidentally hear something they say, you immediately put significant effort into discrediting it?

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Prune]

> Understanding how to communicate with autistics and how to get autistics to better communicate with others is the solution.

By this logic:
Understanding how to care about narcissists and how to get narcissists to better care about others is the solution.
Understanding how to empathize with psychopaths and how to get psychopaths to better empathize with others is the solution.
etc.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Whether it's better or not is subjective.

Fine, play philosopher. I already said I don't care about that. Maybe wanting to "help" certain people so that they can dress themselves or use the bathroom unaided is "imposing my standards".

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

"Different isn't necessarily good" is also so broad and obvious that it's meaningless.

Obviously, so I'm glad I didn't say it.

People who have a limb amputated aren't suddenly a different person.

If you like I can direct you to wards full of people who don't believe that or can't accept it. Nevertheless amputation was a poor analogy.

The rest of the body is what you have; the brain is who you are. I think people are entitled to a vote in whether they want to exist or not.

If you were cured of claustrophobia would you suddenly cease to exist as you? Autism is not a personality. As for voting, how is that applicable to people who can't communicate what they want, or understand your attempt to communicate the question to them? At one point in public places (where he didn't know where the bathroom was) my nephew would sometimes piss in his pants because he didn't know how to say he needed to go. You could ameliorate it by taking him frequently, but sometimes ordinary human beings would forget or wouldn't factor in that he'd had more orange juice for breakfast than usual. Now he can say "go bathroom", which makes him and everybody else happier. AFAIK he hasn't ceased to exist because of the evil mind control experiments that were imposed on him to make this breakthrough.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

it's the people trying to break them

Who is trying to "break them", and how are they doing it? Trying to teach people to overcome or work around their difficulties is called "therapy" or "teaching". At worst sometimes they don't want the lessons at some particular time, but there are also kids that don't want to do their math homework. Big deal. You act as if Dr. Evil were pointing some mind control ray at these kids.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Considering the number of places in the world that people still kill female babies because they want a boy, I would guess the answer is "probably not".

Let me know when somebody suggests killing autistic babies, and I'll help imprison them.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

you assert that we aren't entitled to opinions if we can talk

I said the opposite.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Attila Dimedici]

If they had a way to test for autism in the womb, it would already be recommended... and done routinely.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

"Oh you can communicate with NT people, you are so high functioning."

No, that you can communicate with anybody, NT or not, means that you are higher functioning than somebody who cannot.

Even if he had the other difficulties you mention, I would still love to be able to have a debate on this level with my nephew. It would be an enormous improvement on his current condition, and his difficulty in communicating frustrates him more than it does anyone else.

You have not seen severe executive dysfunction until you've met me. Coupled with severe anxiety problems, and a long history of bad experiences due to misunderstandings and just making sure I have food in the pantry can sometimes be a gold star worthy task for me.

According to your theory that many of the problems often associated with autism (e.g. mental disability) are actually co-morbidities, the anxiety and other things you describe may have little to do with you being autistic. There are many non-autistic people who suffer from anxiety disorders.

Functional labels hurt the 'low functioning' by assuming they cannot do things that they could do, if they were taught different ways, given different environments or provided alternatives.

Judging by my nephew's education/therapy (which I've occasionally assisted with) that is exactly what they try to do. Can't talk? Try sign language (he actually started with that). Point, draw a picture, do anything that will work. He can now speak somewhat, and does even better in writing. That's great, but he has trouble forming a full sentence let alone having a debate whether what is normally called a neurological disorder should be considered a disorder.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

Anyone who is autistic and can communicate is not entitled to an opinion on whether being autistic sucks.

No, I said almost the exact opposite. Anyone who is autistic and can communicate can decide whether they want to be "treated" for their "condition".

I know someone who worked with some autistic kids. Non-verbal, "severe" autism, all that. They got a computer in the classroom, and she discovered: One of the kids could quite consistently enter "y" or "n" to answer questions. He had never demonstrated any ability to communicate before, and suddenly she could get clear information from him. So she showed this to the supervisor of the class, who said it was just chance events, and the kid couldn't communicate, and stop wasting my time.

You're citing one example of an incompetent teacher. My nephew exhibited similar types of behavior and was encouraged to use it and any other type of communication he was capable of.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[ebno-10db]

in general we find that the "severe" problem isn't autism per se, except sometimes maybe it is

The problem is that autism, like most things in the DSM, is not well defined. They're defined in terms of symptoms rather than causes, which is the opposite of how physical disorders are usually defined. It's a reflection of ignorance. Once upon a time physical problems were defined the same way, until the underlying physical causes were discovered.

There are many things associated with autism for unknown reasons. Intellectual handicaps may or may not be caused by the same mechanism but there is such a frequent association that it's suspected that, whether or not you consider them co-morbidities, they caused by the same mechanism. Or maybe the mechanism that causes autism simply makes one more vulnerable to it, or a hundred other possibilities. Nobody knows. For that matter why are allergies frequently associated with autism? That's a surprising thing. A Nobel Prize to the first person who can explain that.

My point to F'Nok is that it's not desirable for him or any one person to re-define autism, however poor (vague) the DSM definition is. When the mechanisms are better understood the diagnostic categories will almost certainly change, and his theory that "low functioning" autism and intellectual disability are distinct co-morbidities may or may not turn out to be true. In the meantime re-defining words is counterproductive. The DSM is bad enough - let's not confuse it further.

The real use of the claim isn't in treatment. It's political. It's a way for our anonymous coward to, safely protected from any criticism or reflection on the rest of his life, try to get all the people who have actual hands-on experience of what we are talking about silenced, by saying we don't count, and we aren't real, and we aren't what's being talked about.

I think you're over-reacting, though I admit his point was crudely expressed. The reaction of many people who have personal experience with (what I will continue to call low functioning ala the DSM) autism to the the idea that all autism is just "different" is often strong. That idea can also be used for political purposes, by suggesting that nobody with autism needs treatment, or even that no special allowance (e.g. in teaching) need be made for autistic people. The ugliest version of that is the idiots who say autism is just a diagnostic fantasy, and the kid banging his head on the ground out of frustration "just wasn't brought up right".

Re:Good News / Bad News

[F'Nok]

My point to F'Nok is that it's not desirable for him or any one person to re-define autism, however poor (vague) the DSM definition is. When the mechanisms are better understood the diagnostic categories will almost certainly change, and his theory that "low functioning" autism and intellectual disability are distinct co-morbidities may or may not turn out to be true. In the meantime re-defining words is counterproductive. The DSM is bad enough - let's not confuse it further.

I am not a 'him' by any definition of that term, another things people get wrong about autism all the time.
The expression of autistic traits in women is different, and often perceived to be 'higher functioning' based on some rather gendered misconceptions as well. The intersection of sexism is autistic discourse is a rather interesting, though frustrating.

And I am not the only one saying these old definitions of autism are wrong, the low/high/aspergers distinctions are all removed from the DSM-5 because of the complete impossibility of actually defining the difference between high and low functioning.
I am one of those cases where placing either label would be misleading.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[seebs]

Except you didn't say the exact opposite.

The topic here isn't whether I personally want treatment; it is whether being autistic is a horrible thing that we should actively prevent anyone from suffering from. And as soon as people who are actually autistic talk about that, we get told that we're "high functioning" and thus don't count, because obviously what's at issue is "severe" autism. So the people who are the closest to having any information that they can relate are discounted.

Thing is, the point about a "spectrum", as opposed to a "continuum", is that it's not all more-severe/less-severe. There are tons of different ways in which the autistic population varies. The assumption that anyone who can write clearly can't possibly have any idea what it's like to have "severe" symptoms is incoherent.

So, recapping the impression your posts create:

1. If someone is autistic, and can't function, that is autism being non-functional. It's never something else that happens to be happening in the same person as autism.
2. If someone can communicate, their autism is "not severe", and they are "high functioning", and thus not entitled to an opinion on what it might be like to be "severely" autistic.
3. If an autistic person has anecdotal evidence, it's just one anecdote and doesn't matter. Your nephew, by contrast, is the gold standard of statistically significant and representative results.

Just seems a little unfair.

Look, I get the desire to have a way to make things better. And I can see the issue when you've got this relative who's incapacitated, and also there's a diagnosis. But it's not at all obvious at the current state of the art in the field that the problem there is autism per se, rather than some other condition, which isn't autism, and if that got treated he might be fine. Or maybe not. We don't know. But handwaving and dismissing people who have real and relevant experience, and telling us that we don't count because we're not "severely" autistic, implies that you do know. That you have all the answers, that you've found definite proof that this really is always and forever just autism, and that fixing it would make it all better.

And that's... Well, first, it's premature, and second, it's an invitation to eradicate all future autistics, of any variety, because no matter how precocious some of us are, we apparently spend a few months, maybe a year or two, not able to talk, and thus not able to decide whether we want to be treated. Or "cured".

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

It's easy to solve once you realize that it's a point of view that can be adopted.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

You're trying to be facetious, but you are in fact correct.

Those are both spectrums that humans can traverse. Learning how to traverse a spectrum at will, is the solution to the negative problems associated with continual existence at an extreme of the spectrum.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

Actually, the problem does lie with how NT structure their world and then declare autists 'diseased' because we don't interpret it the same way. Ever wonder why shoulder muscles move arms, arm muscles move forearm, forearm muscles move hand and fingers??? No autist would describe the world like that and trying to accept garbage descriptions like that at face value is what produces problems. Truth will always be understood, arbitrary names not so much.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

Yes, please god yes!! Those morons are everywhere!!

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

You don't understand autism which is why you don't see the breaking. When stupid people try and 'teach' people with autism they don't comprehend what the other person is doing.

What if to speak, I have to follow a certain energetic pattern with my hands to 'unlock' that function. Sometimes these energetic contortions can be quite lengthy, it's like following a thought but instead of being in our heads, we're following the energy patterns in our bodies. Break these patterns and you can break the person all the while thinking you're just dealing with some moronic useless hand movement.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

You are so wrong. I think this is what some autists tell themselves to make themselves feel better about how special they are. This is the same incorrect viewpoint held by NT's trying to cure autists.

Some of us realize that being able to adopt a new point of view doesn't diminish who you are, but rather free's yourself to be more you. Sure, some things change but they're just a consequence of processing information differently. For example, I can remember verbatim every conversation I hear OR I can change my focus and read social cues and not remember even one sentence of the conversation BUT I can actually understand the person. Is it wrong to acquire that ability? In fact, for data transmission, we should teach NT's the ability to disassociate emotional processing so we get less errors of understanding in purely technical speech.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

Never be afraid of discovering more of who you are.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

I've been wondering if you think software might help? I've been thinking of developing a life logging suite of applications that do things like keep track of meals eaten, what's in the pantry, nutritional value of meals, etc... easy recipe input to calculate meals, that learns how much and how often you buy something and prepares lists for what needs to be stocked, what nutrition you're missing etc...

I've been designing this system to help me cope with all the day to day details that I understand but most of the time can't be bothered to remember about. However, the more I work on the design, the more I incorporate it into my brain and the less I actually need the software. I wonder if it would still be useful for others to use as a tool though.

It's actualyl a data visualization package where you can view things at different levels of detail, from different perspectives, and under different organizational schemes, allowing you to impose your own structure on the world around you and to share and use other peoples organizational schemes as overlays.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Jmc23]

Ever think that perhaps because you're so loud with your words you can't understand how he's communicating?

That was my biggest frustration, people don't seem to understand that you only need words when you aren't communicating, and people can't hear anything when they're talking.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[__aaltlg1547]

>>âoeThis is true four years after the initial test, and regardless of the type of autism treatment the children received,â she said. > In other words, the autism treatments don't work.

This is incorrect thinking. Autism is NOT something to be "cured."

It is a DIFFERENT way of THINKING. See the movie "Temple Grandin" if you want to understand how Asperger's / Austistic children see the world.

Didn't we just see something like this on /. recently? http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/silicon-valley-coders-and-autism-and-asperbergers-maybe-its-a-new-kind-of-design-thinking/

Temple Grandin doesn't know how severely autistic people see the world. She is on the extremely high-functioning end of what's loosely called "autistic." We don't even know if her condition is related to severe autism.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[thunderclap]

Because I was diagnosed with the disease. The abundance of quacks who call themselves 'qualified psychologist' is more than the population of the state of California so while you are perfectly welcome to call yourself a disabled individual, I have having to suffer through a childhood and Middle school with the physically and mentally handicaped when there wasn't anything really wrong with my body or mind gives me a unique perspective.
I am of the opinion that the whole of the DSM-IV is wrong because those 'qualified psychologist' never could understand. They are the equivalent of a Thomas edison's lab techs trying to work on a modern smart phone.
I am also posting this because I give a F### about karma on this subject. You are as much a victim of the system that has REFUSED to narrow down the symptoms correctly to isolate the disease like any good doctor would. And who are you to attack my definitions so vociferously? Did you sit through class after class of meaningless teachings so dumbed down that you took to reading the encyclopedia because you were bored. (and nothing was down because that type of behavior was ok? You are 'disabled'" ) Did you and your parents have to fight '80s school boards and state education to get out of the program so you could actually have a junior and senior year? Did you have a teacher who was a 'qualified psychologist' who swore this would cripple me for life? (it didn't).
I lost out on an typical high school experience because of 'qualified psychologists' who have the same failure to grasp reality as you.
I lost out on being able to get to college because of the refusal to fund me because of that. ( it took till 2005 to get in).
I lost my best years because of this style of thinking.
You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. That's freedom (even if you aren't a US citizen). I however believe that Autism is a crippling disabling disease that deprives people of the ability to speak in a means that the majority of humans in the world does. Its not a special of thinking. Its mental blindness or deafness. Those people need lifelong care because unlike the deaf and blind, they will never be able to help themselves. Are so capable of magnificent feats? Yes.
I aslo believe Aspergers is not the same. Its simple the failure to gather our normal sociological cues. That most uber intelligent people who high the high of the accepted IQ level have simply because of processing power (i work on computers now. No one seemed to care about my 'issue' after 1995. At least where I applied.)
It has levels from the sheldon, beautiful mind level all the way down to mild.
Finally just as with the removal of Homosexuality from the mental illness category, I feel that I will be vindicated. I just think it will be in my lifetime. There are way to many quacks. You are helping them. I never will. They stole too much.
Finally to those who dicker about the meaning of words. Words mean what you want them to. The word 'fag' for example means entirely different things in UK than in US. (Here its a slur, there its a cigarette. Doubt me? Google image search 'have a fag') The word means what I believe it means.The problem is the 'qualified psychologist' quacks who want to make money off insurance who want a broad a range as possible and you having no clue.
Last time I checked, I have a right to decide what words really mean. And thanks to being born in the US, I get to enforce that if I like. I also write fiction so yes, I can create and redefine.

Re:Good News / Bad News

[Prune]

I wasn't trying to be facetious. I've been accused of all three of these, and whether I am in fact all or part any of them, I nonetheless hold my position that they are all disorders that should be treated (if possible), not merely "different". That's just an excuse to allow behavior that's disruptive to not just one's own life, but that of others as well.

Re:Autism, to much hard work.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Have you considered the hypothesis that your boss considers the emotions of his peons to be irrelevant?

Re:Back in sparta.

[Black Parrot]

We just use to through autistic people off the tops of mountains.

Watt did you due to people who make word-choice arrows?

So...

[caspy7]

Are there any brain scans to confirm autism in mildly-autistic adults?

Re:So...

[Black Parrot]

There's an on-line "Autism Quotient" test that you should be able to find with a search engine.

Like other self-administered tests, I wouldn't consider it diagnostic, but perhaps is has some use as "suggestive".

Re:So...

[Jason Levine]

Here's the test from Wired.com: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I scored a 36 where "eighty percent of those diagnosed with autism or a related disorder scored 32 or higher." For comparison purposes, my wife (who is not on the spectrum) took the test and scored a 10.

Re:So...

[ebno-10db]

Are there any brain scans to confirm autism in mildly-autistic adults?

Let me ask a question in all serious, why does it matter if the person you're concerned about can or cannot be officially called autistic?

Re:Autism, to much hard work.

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess somebody's cranky because they haven't shot their requisite dozen kittens today...?

Re:Autism, to much hard work.

[Black Parrot]

Soulless & emotionless. Don't protect the autistic - they need to be buried alive.

As opposed to someone with emotion and soul, who would happily man the earth-mover. I understand that SS guards at concentration camps were particularly soulfull and emotional...

If you want something to make you feel creepy, find the Wikipedia article about the concentration camp commandant executed by Poland after the war. At Nuremberg, when confronted with the charge of killing three million people, he corrected them by saying, no, he only killed two million - the rest died of disease or starvation. Shortly before his execution he said "people tell me I did something wrong".

It's almost enough to make me believe in souls, because this guy was definitely missing something.

Re:Autism, to much hard work.

[Samantha Wright]

That would be pretty prolific, considering that only 10.4 million people died in concentration and death camps in Europe in the Holocaust. There were also ten or so Polish camps, resulting in quite a few senior-level necks being hung at Nuremberg. Anything else you remember?

Re:Back in sparta.

[DMUTPeregrine]

Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong.
In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go. If you don't tow the line you'll never hone in on the truth. Gorilla warfare will be used against you if you don't agree!

Unsure of the original author of that.

Re:Getting hit by a bus

[Attila Dimedici]

Yeah, I can explain it. Autism tends to appear at a certain age range. That age range happens to be the same as the age range when we normally vaccinate children. Amazingly a certain percentage of children start to show autistic symptoms shortly after being vaccinated. Of course, a similar percentage of children who are not vaccinated until somewhat later start to show autistic symptoms at the same age. I have yet to see a study which demonstrates a correlation between vaccination and autism, let alone a study which shows an actual link between them.

Re:Autism, to much hard work.

[Black Parrot]

Rudolf Höss

Re:BULLSHIT!!!

[orgelspieler]

I'm pretty sure GP meant it as a joke. I know I LOLed. Michelle Bachmann 2016!!!!

Re:Getting hit by a bus

[Anonymous Coward]

Solution: ban spirals.

Re:Autism, to much hard work.

[Samantha Wright]

It's an interesting story, and it certainly does seem to fit Aspergers-like ASD symptoms. The confession that he actually did ultimately make fits even better with that diagnosis than the total remorselessness you suggested, I think—but the most telltale thing is that he lost faith in the church over a relatively minor breach of trust, While not generally very sympathetic people, Aspergers (and I'm going to keep using that name because it's more specific, even if no longer medically standard) patients tend to be very principled, and honesty in communication is by far the most important judge of character for them.

Re:Getting hit by a bus

[ebno-10db]

Thank you for a good rebuttal. I'd just like to add that this nonsense about vaccines causing autism distracts from real research into the causes. This has been studied to death and there is no relation between vaccines and autism.