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The Amish Are Getting Fracked

An anonymous reader writes "Old school meets business school. From the New Republic: 'The Amish interpretation of the Christian bible prohibits the use of the courts: Except in rare circumstances, the Amish do not sue. This has created a unique problem in the region. Home to the largest Amish community in the world, Eastern Ohio sits squarely on top of the Utica and Marcellus Shale formations, which contain billions in oil and gas recoverable through advances in hydraulic fracturing technology, or fracking ... When it comes to the oil and gas industry, this means that any agreement an Amish farmer makes with a company is, for the farmer, practically unenforceable. A rare case in which the plaintiffs were Amish suggests that Ohio's oil and gas companies know this and have been willing to take advantage.'"

29 of 367 comments (clear)

  1. Religion and ethics vs. money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know who I'd bet on every time.

    1. Re:Religion and ethics vs. money by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But usually in combination with money. Heck, money is its own religion nowadays. Most of those winning religious people believe more in the "invisible hand" than in the ten commandments.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    2. Re:Religion and ethics vs. money by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's no ethics involved on either side. It's more like deliberate stupidity vs greed. What can I say? They have found each other...

  2. But, Corporations are People! by cphilo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Except they have no ethics or morality. Or shame.

    1. Re:But, Corporations are People! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      they have no ethics or morality. Or shame.

      I'd say this applies to government more than private corporations.

    2. Re:But, Corporations are People! by an00bis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You must work for the government.

    3. Re:But, Corporations are People! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who taps every Verizon Wireless phone.

      Who targets the enemies of the administration via IRS

      Who use tax payer money to fund junkets to Anaheim (Disneyland) (IRS)

      Who claim they need to review rules, regulations and procedures (they violated) in the tapping of Reporter's phones.

      The government and corporations are the same. They are people, without conscience.

      "Is it Legal"

      "I will make it legal"

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:But, Corporations are People! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What would ever compel a private corporation to act ethically towards entities that neither own shares in the said corporation, nor are among their customers?

      That's right: Nothing.

      It's actually exactly the same thing. When you disagree with a company, you can stop giving them your money, When you disagree with the government, you can stop giving them your money.

      Oh, wait...

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:But, Corporations are People! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Same thing can be said of Government. We have laws the government violates all the time. It is worse, because government is supposed to enforce the laws.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    6. Re:But, Corporations are People! by P-niiice · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can play this game. Who forces farmers to rebuy GMO seed every year? Who overpays CEO's and upper management to the tune of up to 399 times the lowest wage? Who sidesteps billions in taxes that could build american infrastructure or help millions of Americans improve their lives? Who uses American tax breaks and then refuses to hire american despite huge profits? Who vastly overcharges for routine medical supplies like aspirin in hopes that it won't be caught on a bill? "Is it ethical?" "My friends in congress and media will make it ethical."

    7. Re:But, Corporations are People! by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Corporations cant force anything.

      Of course they can, and do. Where the government is strong, the corporations wield power through it. Where it is weak, they hire their own private armies a la Pinkerton, because who'll stop them?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    8. Re:But, Corporations are People! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nobody forces the farmers to rebuy GMO seed every year.

      The farmers choose to buy GMO seed because it is so much better than the other seed that you can't compete.

      This is why most farmers till their fields with tractors rather than horses.

    9. Re:But, Corporations are People! by stenvar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're absolutely right that neither corporations nor government have ethics. The difference is: with corporations, that's what's expected and it shouldn't matter because in a free market, you don't have to buy their crap. When the federal government is unethical, you have no way of escaping from that. And when they mandate monopolies (e.g., media) or purchases (e.g., health care), you can't use the market anymore to stay away from corporations whose products you don't want.

    10. Re:But, Corporations are People! by rockout · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At least, with government (in theory, in a democracy), you can vote out the guys who force you to do things. You have no such choice when corporations get big enough to force things on you and have swallowed up and/or wiped out all their competitors.

      --
      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
    11. Re:But, Corporations are People! by nobodyknowsimageek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you think that you can evade the bad behavior of Corporations simply by "not buying from them" then you are incredibly naive.

  3. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are actually several different "sects" of Amish, all with differing interpretations. Saying that they don't make use of the courts is incorrect. Some don't, but for most the prohibition is in filing lawsuits for personal gain.

    In any event, it's really not something anybody should be concerned with. The Amish have the right to take advantage of the courts, and the right to choose not to use them. If their belief system says don't use the courts, well that's too bad but it's a burden they've placed on themselves.

    1. Re:Wrong by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right. If the fracking did something like destroy their land so it couldn't be used for farming, they would likely be able to sue to get justice.

      What they probably won't do is sue if the energy companies don't give them all the money they agreed to, but at the same time, it doesn't prevent the Amish from living their lives.

      Although the Amish are not idiots, they have decided to live their lives without many modern conveniences. Presumably, they aren't going to be necessarily interested in extracting as much money as they can as there is no benefit to them in a lot of money except keeping score. Since mineral and resource rights are money that they would make without working for it themselves, it's a windfall that they may well not need or even want.

      That's not to say that they will or want to give this stuff away, but at the same time, if the energy companies are not actively hurting them, lawsuits are just a contentious issue that they don't need. Of course, nothing prevents them from pointing out that the energy companies are cheating them to interested parties and having those people publicize it (as seems to have happened here). This may give outsiders the idea that the Amish are being cheated and taken advantage of, but I just see it as them placing their priorities in a place where most people would not in modern society.

  4. Re:lawsuit by proxy? by Picass0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They probably could but if the property owner is not a party on the lawsuit there's nothing to compel a third party to share any restitution from the court.

  5. Re:PROXY? by thoriumbr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Amish are not thinking on the billions, they are thinking on their land. They rarely rely on money anyway, so the billions would not be that compelling to them. But frackle their soil and wreck their land, and they will be deeply concerned.

  6. Their own fault by Jiro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they had religious objections to the police, and thus refused to use them, would we start seeing stories that they are being robbed and the robbers are getting away?

    Of course if they don't use the courts, they don't get the benefit of the courts. If they refuse anything based on religious grounds, they're not going to get it. That's what "refuse" means. If they refuse the process of getting justice, they're not going to get justice, just like if they refuse internet service, they don't get internet service.

    What next, articles about the cruel dilemma of Christian Scientists who are dying of disease because their religion discourages them from seeing doctors?

    1. Re:Their own fault by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the U.S. corporations are our religion. The "Christianity" thing is a smokescreen. If it makes money and screws the other guy then in corporate-centric America it is right.

      I'm ready for the -1 mod on this... but I will keep saying it. We've got major problems with our ethics in the U.S. and corporatism is being the true religion. The Joel Olsteen "God wants you to be successful" crap is by no means Christianity.

    2. Re:Their own fault by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they refuse the process of getting justice

      They refuse a process, one that's claimed to get justice, when it often does not.

      It's so funny to see people call the US a 'Christian Nation' when its conflict resolution system is based on vengeance and disallows third party defense, contrary to all just moral codes do (this would help the Amish here). Jesus taught forgiveness, tolerance, and mutual aid - it's really hard to mesh the two.

      At the same time, if the Amish were to actually defend their property rights, the government that runs this so-called 'justice' system would do things to the Amish that would be considered illegal if anybody else did it and immoral by most watchers.

      There are conflict resolution systems that are compatible with property rights and the kinds of non-zero sum games that Jesus taught. We're not allowed to choose those here - the default system is always in play and it's based on retribution and violence. The Amish's resolve is admirable in this case. Blaming the victim is never admirable.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:Their own fault by physicsphairy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they had religious objections to the police, and thus refused to use them, would we start seeing stories that they are being robbed and the robbers are getting away?

      If they had religious objections to invoking the police, it would be irrelevant. The police are still going to track down the robbers and arrest them regardless of whether mom and pop want to file charges. In structuring our society, we have arbitrarily decided to make a legal distinction between certain types of injustice. It used to be the case where I live that domestic violence was not prosecuted unless the abused wanted to press charges. You'd think if someone was being abused they would want their abuser to get what was coming to them. But that is not always the case, I suppose we decided we wanted the abuser to face justice regardless, because now they will be prosecuted by default.

      It is just as arbitrary deciding we are going to rely on a civil enforcement of contract law. In fact, we do have measures to protect certain disadvantaged people in contracts---minors, people with mental defects---but so far not people averse to filing lawsuits. Just because the Amish are willing to allow injustice to be perpetrated against them doesn't make it okay and doesn't mean we as a society are obliged to accept it, any more than we are obliged to allow physical abuse simply because the abused wants to remain in the relationship.

      The reason the Amish don't wish to file a lawsuit is because they have a different set of priorities. Their goal is to make their lives a compelling argument for what they believe in. They are instructed to shun lawsuits because legal disputes often result in discord and when it comes to a choice between the money or maintaining goodwill they suppose money is not that important. You're right that it is their choice to make. But it doesn't change the fact that they are being wronged and cheated. I don't understand why you think they need to be actively trying to get the better of their oppressors before we're allowed to be sympathetic.

  7. Re:lawsuit by proxy? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh get over it. The entire Bible is a mass of conflicting rules and loopholes. People spout leviticus at gays while having tattoos and wearing mixed fabrics.

  8. Re:lawsuit by proxy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a wonderful piece done by NPR which explains this. A summary paraphrase is something like this. They only do something if it brings them closer to their god. Anything that could be a distraction from that is removed from their lives. So using a diesel generator that gives them more time and money to spend in their community and with God is a good thing for them, television that takes time from their family and their focus on god is a bad thing. I may not believe as they do, but exploitation of any people gets me kind of riled. As an atheist, no one deserves to be abused just for how they choose to live or believe, especially if it does not infringe upon others. The law needs to come down supremely hard on these people abusing the Amish.

  9. Simple solution: by Wireless+Joe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Don't enter into any more agreements with those frackers.

  10. Re:"not my problem or concern" by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This that "lib" really smug or is that just the image you've formed in your own mind?

    Living in Indiana I have quite an image of the smug, blowhard, know-it-all but ignorant conservative built up. It doesn't mean I am always right.

  11. Re:lawsuit by proxy? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And generally speaking they are happy with their lot and comfortable in their lives

    I can't help it, being a sceptic, but I wonder - how common is it for people living in strong, patriarchal, authoritarian societies to claim that they are happy when they actually aren't, relative to other societies?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  12. Re:I think he's dealt with other orthodox types by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Totally my personal belief here, but the people we see on TV, yelling about Homosexuality, being puffed-up about Christianity aren't actually Christians at all. They don't meet any of the traditional requirements. They're prideful, spiteful, hateful, etc... all the classic deadly sins. The whole idea of what Christianity is has been taken over by false loudmouths. They need to be called out by the greater community, but of course they never will be.