Slashdot Mirror
Oracle Discontinues Free Java Time Zone Updates
New submitter Noel Trout writes "For a long time in the Java world, there has been a free tool called the 'tzupdater' or Time Zone Updater released as a free download first by Sun and then Oracle. This tool can be used to apply a patch to the Java runtime so that time zone information is correct. This is necessary since some time zones in the world are not static and change more frequently than one might think; in general time zone updates can be released maybe 4-6 times a year. The source information backing the Java timezone API comes from the open source Olson timezone database that is also used by many operating systems. For certain types of applications, you can understand that these updates are mission critical. For example, my company operates in the private aviation sector so we need to be able to display the correct local time at airports around the world. So, the interesting part is that Oracle has now decided to only release these updates if you have a Java SE support contract. Being Oracle, such licenses are far from cheap. In my opinion, this is a pretty serious change in stance for Oracle and amounts to killing free Java for certain types of applications, at least if you care about accuracy. We are talking about the core API class java.util.TimeZone. This begs the question, can you call an API free if you have to pay for it to return accurate information? What is the point of such an API? Should the community not expect that core Java classes are fully functional and accurate? I believe it is also a pretty bad move for Java adoption for these types of applications. If my company as a startup 10 years ago would have been presented with such a license fee, we almost certainly could not have chosen Java as our platform as we could not afford it."
it's Time to switch to python
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Do they want to promote an alternative? How does this affect the OpenJDK?
The information needed to provide the updates is freely available, so cannot someone else provide the updates ? Just get tzupdater to download from a different place. I am not a Java programmer, so forgive me if I have got the wrong end of the stick.
Even better change the Java functions to get the information operating system, on Linux the tzdata, then Java is kept up to date as the OS is kept up to date.
The time to move away from Java was as soon as Oracle bought Sun.
I don't know if Python is the answer for everyone, and I know changing to a different language is about as big of a pain as there is, but the jig was up after Sun was bought.
Not surprising. Given the refusal to remove those bloody Java sponsors from the JRE. Piss off the end users and now the developers.
Area51 - We are watching...
IBM provides free access to the Olson database updates:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/dst/jtzu.html
Was this post even necessary?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=java+olson+database
Why doesn't java use the operating system to provide that information in the first place? At least on operating systems that provide that sort of information, which isn't just "linux" but pretty much all unices.
Also, ISTR the source updates maybe twice a year, and is free, so I don't see why java has to be so special. Then again, oracle is a very special company in that regard. Everybody needs this, and in fact needs everybody else to have it too, so it's stupid penny pinching that's going on here.
And it is very stupid, just like their handling of patches for critical holes turned out to be criminally stupid. It's not like their head honcho needs the money, seeing how he squanders it on airport fines and the like.
Some of our developers have switched to Joda Time classes as they're easier to use that those built into Java proper. They even give instructions on how to manually update the time zone tables. (We didn't develop the code, we're just happy customers): http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/
So, who is surprised by Oracle's move here? Nobody with a eyes and a brain. Oracle just doesn't know what to do with a community.
Does this make Microsoft or C# look so great? No way! They started out less free than Oracle is now and haven't really changed.
Why do I develop in Java (I also know C, C++ [and the assembler code they generate], Python, SQL [MS and non-MS dialects] -- so why choose Java?)? Because I want to write programs for my slightly less shackled Android phone.
And the next plan of action is...?
There are a bunch of options... for starters, google the problem. Next, just wait: some bright spark will put out a tool that uses local time zone info (configurable) to update some Java installation's (configurable) idea of time zones automatically (or not, configurable).
It happened with MySQL, it'll happen with Java. "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."
Douglas Adams' fictional book cover still has the right initial instruction: "Don't Panic!"
cheers...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
I clearly hadn't read more than the first few lines of the help on Java TimeZone info or I could have found out that the answer was already there, without having to wait for it. As another poster pointed out IBM already provides free Java timezone updates.
Let me google that for you! But more to the point, writing a tool that will grab those updates for yourself and storing it where you need it looks like a bash script or batch file candidate. Our brains are more than a match for Oracle's bean counters. Let's use them!
cheers...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
Yes, but Python's bytecode is much higher-level than the bytecode used by the other three, because it doesn't have explicit typing of variables or direct integer manipulation. The performance implications are substantial if you're performing any non-trivial calculations. (Of course, if your process is I/O bound, this is largely irrelevant...)
Python also cannot be efficiently multithreaded, which is a killer for many high-performance applications.
nothing is hidden
newlines are used in place of semicolons and indentation defines code blocks
in most other languages {} define code blocks and indentation implies code blocks to the reader, sometimes misleading the reader.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
If the whitespace still bothers you - it means you haven't even spent 15m using it.
it's Time to switch to python
Develop software - production software - in an interpreted language?
Not on my watch.
C# and Microsoft is looking better everyday.
Better let Google know they're doing it wrong then.
I always thought the Wars of the Reformation were a fascinating, if horrible, part of history. It's always fun to see them re-enacted in spirit with programming languages. Nobody is planning to destroy Bohemia though, right?
"Develop software - production software - in an interpreted language?"
What the hell do you think Java and C# are? Compared to C and C++ they are interpreted languages.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
it's Time to switch to python
Develop software - production software - in an interpreted language?
Not on my watch.
C# and Microsoft is looking better everyday.
Python is commonly compiled at first use these days, much like the Java JIT compilation process.
If you want a legitimate reason to avoid Python for mission-critical stuff, it's the lack of rigorous development-time type-checking.
Braces allow for automatic formatting.
Whitespace shouldn't encode anything other than separation between meaningful elements. Definitely not blocks.
Besides, untyped languages are unmaintainable crap. They're nice for throwing crap together quick, but having to figure out what the code does (with typical level of comments...) is a painful experience.
Java lost me many years ago for various reasons. But not using Java was more of a gut feeling as opposed to a well thought out plan. But now between the this craziness and the non stop drip drip of security flaws I have now moved into the camp that anyone using Java on a new project is just drinking the kool-aid. With Oracle at the helm you just know they have a spreadsheet with a time-table for monetizing Java harder and harder as time moves forward.
My guess is that Oracle has seen the writing on the wall that many business organizations are solidly Java and can afford any "minor" fees involved. What they are missing is that many university CS departments are dumping Java in favor of Python as Python is becoming the defacto language of academia. My prediction is that Java will ever so slowly fade as it is ensconced in the business world and isn't going anywhere there. But that the cool kids will see it as their grandfather's language and actively avoid it. I am not suggesting that Python will replace Java just that with CS students not giving a crap about Java they won't choose it for new projects.
One thing that has long annoyed me about Java progammers is this whole, "Let's wrap every damn thing in a object." Then you end up with an architecture that looks like the traveling salesman problem done by someone on LSD.
I think we have a different definition of hidden.
Of course you can always find poorly formatted code that's confusing, but the bottom line here is that this is not an appropriate way of using white space. White space is for the purpose of separating elements and making it more readable.
The fact that most other languages use {} to denote blocks is a good reason to use that in other languages as well. It's something that works, is clear in intention and after all these years, nobody has come up with anything better.
It should be up to the developers as to how precisely they format their code for legibility, not the people writing the language.
Firstly, Oracle are still updating timezones as always in updates to the JDK/JRE.
From an old Oracle post though there is this guide
https://blogs.oracle.com/coffeys/entry/want_the_latest_tzdata_support
Which breaks down the process for folks who want to build their own TZ updating tool.
"You know you want me baby!" - Crow T Robot
This begs the question, can you call an API free if you have to pay for it to return accurate information?
No it does not beg the question.
What is "Begging the Question?"
"Begging the question" is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself. When one begs the question, the initial assumption of a statement is treated as already proven without any logic to show why the statement is true in the first place.
A simple example would be "I think he is unattractive because he is ugly." The adjective "ugly" does not explain why the subject is "unattractive" -- they virtually amount to the same subjective meaning, and the proof is merely a restatement of the premise. The sentence has begged the question.
What is it Not?
To beg the question does not mean "to raise the question." (e.g. "It begs the question, why is he so dumb?") This is a common error of usage made by those who mistake the word "question" in the phrase to refer to a literal question. Sadly, the error has grown more and more common with time, such that even journalists, advertisers, and major mass media entities have fallen prey to "BTQ Abuse."
While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight
Well, that explains why my watch battery only lasts 15 minutes...
I can't believe this post isn't modded up more. More and more I feel like the readership of slashdot is a bunch of script-kiddies rather than professional coders. The idea that you would use whitespace to denote something as important as scope is ludicrous. In fact, the idea that you would use whitespace to denote ANYTHING is ludicrous.
...and now displays the incorrect time in your locale.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
Go has the same problem that Ruby has: too many damn weenies in the community.
I don't mean an overabundance of men and penises, which is indeed a problem for both, but the smugness and the attitude one must endure when dealing with them.
I try to stay current with the technologies that others are using, so I've worked on some small personal projects in Ruby, Go and Python. I usually ask questions in IRC when I happen to get stuck.
When I was asking questions about Ruby and Go, the people there would constantly tell me that what I was doing, or even just aiming to do, was "wrong". So, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. Hey, maybe I am wrong, and maybe they do have a better way. Yet every single time their suggestions would not help me attain what I wanted, would obviously not work, or were even outright harmful in some cases.
I never got this in the Python IRC channels. When I asked a question, they'd give me helpful answers, or at least help orient me in the right direction. They wouldn't take a holier-than-thou attitude with me. They wouldn't flat out tell me what I wanted to do was "wrong". They wouldn't give me suggestions rife with obvious security holes or other bugs.
The Python community helped me with my problems, and made me more efficient. The Go and Ruby communities just made me feel annoyed, like I was dealing with a bunch of know-it-all teenagers. Then again, maybe that is exactly what was happening. I was dealing with adult men and women when using Python, but I was dealing with passively-rebellious youth when seeking help with Go and Ruby.
As someone who was been a .NET developer in C# since it came out, this is welcome news to see Java developers abandoning their platform in droves.
Sorry to sound harsh, but I heard from so many middle managers and CIOs over the years, "Why don't you use Java?" "I noticed you don't use Java, what's wrong with you?" "What about Java?" "Have you looked into Java?" I had one snarky middle manager buy me a Java book for Christmas one year.
Sorry, I don't use Java and every day more and more people are saying the same thing.
I'm a big tall mofo.
If you were worried about problems that might happen when different people owned Java, then you should have listened to Richard Stallman and never started using it in the first place.
As it is, thanks to Stallman and others, there are now open alternatives.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
It's not like Oracle is the provider of the time zones. Java uses the standard and open Arthur Olson zone info ones, and only modify the zone files to fit within the java framework.
What it boils down to is that Oracle wants money for what they themselves are freeloading.
What's needed is for java to be able to use unmodified zoneinfo files, or an open source zone info compiler that can convert them for use by any java installation.