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Federal Judge Says Interns Should Be Paid
An anonymous reader writes "Student interns are typically relegated to menial tasks like fetching coffee and taking out the trash, the idea being that they get paid in experience instead of money. On Tuesday, Manhattan Federal District Court Judge William H. Pauley disagreed, ruling in favor of two interns who sued Fox Searchlight Pictures to be paid for their work on the 2010 film Black Swan. The interns did chores that otherwise would have been performed by paid employees. Pauley ruled, in accordance with criteria laid out by the U.S. Department of Labor, that unpaid internships should be educational in nature and specifically structured to the benefit of the intern, and reasoned that if interns are going to do grunt work like regular employees, then they should be paid like regular employees."
The article seems to imply that this might be the beginning of the end for the rampant abuse of unpaid internships: "Judge Pauley rejected the argument made by many companies to adopt a 'primary benefit test' to determine whether an intern should be paid, specifically whether 'the internship’s benefits to the intern outweigh the benefits to the engaging entity.' Judge Pauley wrote that such a test would be too subjective and unpredictable."
If you have to pay interns like regular employees, what's the point of hiring interns?
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
If interns have to get paid, there goes Hollywood, Print, and Radio media industries... Interns pretty much do everything these days.
How about laying off some lazy fat management types to free up some money?
Unpaid internships are a huge crutch perpetuating class divisions here in the US. I wonder what will change now that rich kids no longer have the advantage of being able to say "I'll work for free."
An internship should clearly be:
- For a well-defined project;
- For a limited time;
- Paid (at a basic level);
- As much work for the employer as it is for the intern.
If you're not mentoring your interns heavily, you stand no chance of developing a talent pipeline. I wrote about my experiences with an internship program here: http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2012/04/18/lessons-learned-from-training-interns/
The critical aspect is that you have to have the available bandwidth to mentor and supervise an intern. You have to give them clear goals and a clear chance to succeed.
Boohoo. Companies can't exploit as many people anymore! The horror!
Unpaid internships have always been very restricted according to labor laws. It has always been the case that many companies in the entertainment and publishing and fashion industries were breaking the law. What is new is simply that a few former interns got fed up enough with their treatment that they are ratting out their unethical non-employers ;-)
I can't comment on specifics, as I've never done an internship, but my impression is that the theory is to get the intern a little bit of exposure to the field they are trying to get into, with the byproduct of some internships leading to legitimate jobs or networking with those they interned with. However, if the internships are being used as an excuse to use these interns as nothing but grunt workers for tasks completely unrelated to their field, it seems the exercise is a waste on any but a networking level, and even then, they'd be cultivating contacts whom they will just resent anyway.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Minimum wage is so low that any company who wants to grow their own talent can pay it painlessly.
The skilled trades, unlike various Elitist Fuck Corporations, pay their apprentices because otherwise said apprentices wouldn't be able to have food, clothing and shelter.Internships/apprenticeships are increasing as they are the (proven over CENTURIES) way to grow skilled tradespeople.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
some schools make you pay for the credits so work for free and pay to get credit for it.
Leapfrog Technology Group abuses interns
Here is the job add with some added mark up
Fun points are up 3 months full time with no pay
and they have the balls to say "This means that if you don't believe there is any value to 12 weeks of unpaid on the job training, then this opportunity is not for you. We're looking for those individuals with long term aspirations in mind, not someone simply looking for a paycheck."
added mark up start with --
What is an Information Technology Internship?
An IT Internship is both an educational experience and a potential full time job after completion.
An IT Internship teaches students how to apply existing skills to real-world environments.
An IT Internship gives students the opportunity to learn new skills to better prepare for the competitive job market after graduation.
An IT Internship offers a variety of positions in at various types of organizations.
--point 4 is part of payed jobs
We offer internships to highly motivated individuals who want to enhance their IT exposure while working for a technology company focused on consulting and managed IT support. Our IT operations are located both in Chicago's Loop. We are currently seeking two interns to assist with our outsourced support program for our client located in the Chicagoland area.
Desired Experience
1 - 2 years --For a Work for free job?
Desired Education
High School or higher --OK
Desired Technical Skills
Windows 7, Internet Explorer, Outlook, Remote Access, Remote Desktop, Active Directory Administration, Basic Group Policy. --ok
Desired Soft Skills
Additional third party application skills and network infrastructure a plus. Ability to heavily multitask, excellent written and verbal skills, ability to understand business concepts and operations, independent worker, punctual, professional, asks detailed questions.
Must enhance skills on their own time when necessary at home or in office. --so not only is this work for free it's work off the clock at home as well?
Job Description and Career Opportunity
Throughout the course of each day, Leapfrog Technology Group delivers the absolute highest quality and most reliable technical support and network design\implementation services to small and medium organizations between 5 to 150 computers with one or more servers. Leapfrog is a Microsoft Gold Certified Partner in the Midwest Region, focusing on network infrastructure, advanced network infrastructure and managed services. Established in 2002, the company employs a small group of highly capable senior engineers focused on providing IT strategy and ongoing operational support.
We are currently seeking candidates through our Campus Relations Program for our Information Technology Development Program. This program provides challenging assignments and exceptional growth opportunities. In your role as a Help Desk Analyst, you will expand your skill set by providing prompt and effective support for our clients technical needs. Additionally, Leapfrog has a web design division, provides hardware\software sales, provides project management services, and in this role, additional non technical skills will be developed. This internship requires heavy multitasking, use of technology software to ease the burden on the support specialist, and is extremely challenging. Even for seasoned IT professionals, a role as an IT consultant is a very challenging one. We believe that this will be a position in which the staff is held to the highest standards and will be held accountable to use Leapfrog's proven methodologies.
Must have the following qualities:
Business savvy: You are smart and you understand the business implications of your ideas. You are successful in translating classroom training into workplace solutions.
Results focused: You always give it your best but you're not satisfied until you've acco
If interns have to get paid, there goes Hollywood, Print, and Radio media industries... Interns pretty much do everything these days.
How about laying off some lazy fat management types to free up some money?
Exactly, like the GP said, there go the movie, print, and radio industries. Nothing anyone can do about it now but wait for the sweet embrace of death.
Wait, Hollywood would go belly-up? And we're complaining about this?
I don't get why internships were ever unpaid in the first place. In the course of training someone to do the job they are interning for, they end up providing some form of valuable work, even if it is at a lower level of effectiveness/efficiency than a highly-skilled employee. As an engineer, I have the good fortune of being in a field where internships are almost universally paid, and paid well for that matter. (Many engineering internships run from double to triple minimum wage.) Even my most basic intern experience (which is barely considered "engineering" by my standards) paid over double minimum wage (back in 2006). I can't fathom a sort of situation where an intern provides absolutely no useful work. Can anyone provide an example?
(((dB)))
Funny how high minimum wages and "socialism" to a degree much greater than in the US hasn't eradicated Germany's very popular system of apprenticeship.
And first-world countries that do not have minimum wage set by law tend to have minimum wage worked out in collective bargaining between a union and management (which then applies to all employees, union or non-union). Do you think that that would lower wages?
Working there of their own free will, so that they can gain experience, so that they can get a leg up when it comes time for applying for an Entry-level / Junior job, which they will not get, since it's more cost-effective to use free interns than what is now an 'expensive' employee.
See, a typical company has numerous regular employees, and takes on a handful of interns during the summer / other times. These positions used to be paid; they weren't paid well, compared to when the person actually graduated, but then, they weren't being paid much, and interns were closer to observer status than the backbone of the company. The only organizations who really ran with the unpaid internships were the peace / welfare / non-profit types, who would argue that they couldn't afford it, etc., etc., and people let them go with that because of morality.
Anyway, between the dotcom crash, the housing market crash, and so on, the market is getting so bad, that the business types, who occasionally need a reminder from their fore-bearers why certain lines are not crossed, decided to cross another line. "The market is bad, so all internships will now be unpaid" -> every-time the market takes a dip, a business type will try and cut something; it's almost like a play, and shows that their business is not being run well enough to weather the darker times. Anyway, like all bad ideas, it catches on; soon college students are spending their parent's money to drive to and from unpaid internships, on the gamble that it will all work out in the long run if they put the effort in. Between the rising cost of gas, rising cost of tuition, and senior-level positions being marketed as entry-level positions, they're rolling in debt, and the entire edifice is collapsing on itself.
But the real problem? The real problem, from a business perspective, is this. Suppose I have a company with 12 regular employees, and I pick up 3 paid interns. My rival has a company with 3 regular employees, and 12 unpaid interns. From a strictly fiscal aspect, he's probably going to be more cost-effective than I am. So I downsize all but 3 of my regular employees, and bring on 24 unpaid interns. He responds by firing all but one of his regular employees, and bringing on 36 unpaid interns. He's probably still winning, from a cost effective standpoint...but chances are, neither of our companies are producing much, the quality is going to be very variable, and the market is looking in horror at what has been created -> an incredibly unstable company, where the employees have little reason to be there, can leave in a heartbeat, and so on. The unpaid internship, like email spam and the old registrar's policy of 'trying a domain name for a month before paying for it,' has been abused; any company that cannot afford to pay for an internship (which rarely exceeds, what, the teens in terms of renumeration per hour?) is probably on shaky ground to begin with.
I am John Hurt.
If those industries cannot survive without a large pool of free labor, then they should go the way of the dodo.
All this means is that there will be fewer internships, thus fewer opportunities for unskilled students (or otherwise) to gain experience. Keep in mind that these students are working of their own free will.
There will be fewer internships, because the crappy worthless ones will be axed. There will not be fewer opportunities for students to gain experience, because the genuine internships — the ones that are not-for-business-gain and the ones that are for business gain, but paid — will continue. So there will be just as much experience gained, although there will be fewer internships on CVs. Which will not only stop the exploitation, but it will make having an internship on your CV more attractive to potential employers, because it will now say you have actual real experience in something more useful than running down to the local store for a box of donuts and a 6 pack of Mountain Dew....
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
You used to be free to die in the gutter. You used to be free to breathe asbestos on the job. You used to be free to be raped by the sweat shop owner.
These regulations exist for good reason. I am offering a free one way trip to Somalia so you can check out the alternative. As part of my education for slashdot libertarians program I do require a refund if you ever leave Somalia.
If someone wants to volunteer for a position on their own time, then that's okay--but that's not what I'd call an internship position, and the system shouldn't be set up to have people needing to volunteer full-time.
That's not OK, because then you have companies exploiting the constant stream of desperate unemployed people looking to get the experience that gets them their next job.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Go to the Prison-Industrial Complex, pay them a low fee, and get your labor for next to nothing (or free).
This has been about the only growth industry in the US for decades.
This is very appealing to Red states as it gets them a good chunk of money both over and under the table whilst also satisfying their twisted Purtianical sadism fetishes. The fact that most of the sla^H^H^H workers are minorities is just gravy.
Very related: for-profit prison companies are now lobbying if not outright writing ever more laws with prison sentences as it directly increases their profits. Greed and sick, religion-driven punishment fantasies are the twin reasons the US has more citizens imprisoned percentage-wise than anywhere else.
I ran a company for quite a few years. The summer students I had were paid something, but I have to say that the assumption that employers are getting something for nothing is simply ridiculous. I had to do background checks before allowing them access to my business assets. I had to supply them with desk-space, a computer, a phone. I had to assign someone to train and then to supervise them. Most of their "work" was them learning to do the job. I had a couple who worked out really well, but most were revenue-neutral at best. The last few years I ended up not doing it even when kids begged to work for me for nothing. I would liken it to the opportunities available in international aid. Kids go off and volunteer at orphanages in India or whatever. These days, NGOs usually charge their volunteers a fee in exchange for the opportunity. They have figured out that, in the end, it _costs_ them money to host volunteers.
the one and only purpose of interning is to have the opportunity to shine. It's difficult to get hired as an employee -- there's a lot to prove and a lot of competition. It's way easier as an intern. And it's the foot in the door. You do have the opportunity to do really well, get noticed, and eventually get hired. And all you need to do is to work for free until that happens. That's pretty swell.
That's the lie they tell you, but don't believe it. They're really just using you. Statistically, in the fields that abuse unpaid internships, those with internships on their resumes get hired after graduation at a rate about 2% higher than those without.
From TFS:
Pauley ruled, in accordance with criteria laid out by the U.S. Department of Labor, that unpaid internships should be educational in nature and specifically structured to the benefit of the intern, and reasoned that if interns are going to do grunt work like regular employees, then they should be paid like regular employees."
All this judge did was rule in accordance to existing law - that interns are there to be taught the tricks of the trade, not be your goddamn coffee mule, and if you're going to utilize them as such, they must be paid for their efforts (and rightfully so).
For fuck's sake, guys, learn to read at least the damn summary before you go off on a nonsensical tangent; perhaps you'll learn to think better of it.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
But they have a simple solution: they can just walk away from their unpaid internship without losing anything.
Often, an internship is associated with college credit for which the student has paid tuition. Quitting an internship would be like dropping a class and, after some point in the semester, there's no refund for that tuition.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I recall you as one of the people who insists that copying is stealing. You vehemently denounce piracy, saying that artists deserve to be paid, and people who just make a copy without paying are cheating the artists. Pirates are not paying for the labor, the hard work artists put into the creation of their works, and are therefore allegedly making it impossible to earn a living from art.
But interns? If artists deserve compensation for labor, and not just once, but each time their work is used, surely interns deserve some pay for their labor, just once?
How do you justify what seems to me to be a huge double standard?
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
I agreed to it going in. that's no illegal.
Yes, it is. If you did actual work, it was an evasion of the minimum wage laws.
for the company to give me a four month interview is not immoral.
It stopped being an interview when you started doing useful work.
For me to take advantage of it, and wind up competing with six other interns is not illegal. For me to get the job offer when others did not is not immoral.
I agree.
They didn't refuse to pay me. They promissed that they wouldn't pay me.
Utter and complete bullshit. If you had refused their kind promise not to pay you, then they would have paid you? No? Well then, you should be literally embarrassed to have even written a comment so stupid.
What's your problem here? Someone who didn't expect to get paid, and could leave at any time if they didn't like the work, stuck around and didn't get paid. They never needed to do the work. They could have walked out the door at any time. They literally had nothing to lose.
Good for you. My problem is with the immorality and illegality of a company refusing to pay its entry-level workers. And even more so in industries where cabals of companies have colluded to create a situation where young people believe that they can't get, and indeed do not even deserve to be, paid for their labor. If you really can't understand why that is wrong, then you're either too deep in denial about how you were exploited to be able to recognize the truth, or you're a sack-of-shit sociopath who can't wait to be in the position where you yourself can profit from free labor.