Do-It-Yourself Brain Stimulation Has Scientists Worried

Freshly Exhumed writes "Dave Siever always fancied himself as something of a musician, but also realized he did not necessarily sing or play in perfect key. Then he strapped on the electrodes of a device made by his Edmonton company, and zapped his brain's auditory cortex with a mild dose of electricity. The result, he claims, was a dramatic improvement in his ability to hear pitch, including the sour notes he produced himself. 'Now I tune everything and I practise my singing over and over and over again, because I'm more sensitive to it.' Mr. Siever was not under the supervision of a doctor or psychologist, and nor is he one himself. He is part of an extraordinary trend that has amateur enthusiasts excited, and some scientists deeply nervous: do-it-yourself brain stimulation." With studies suggesting that small doses of electricity can: increase your memory, help you learn new tasks, make you better at math, turn you into a sniper in minutes, and most importantly make the ugly seem attractive, we can expect a lot of brain zapping in the next few years.

Comments

Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[Spy Handler]

experience an orgasm?

-Luis Wu

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[bmo]

Thread done in two. Everyone can go home now.

--
BMO

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[CRCulver]

I was about to post the same thing. The scene in Niven's The Ringworld Engineers where Louis Wu is shown to have become a "wirehead", someone who becomes addicted to directly stimulating the pleasure centre of the brain and losing interest in all else in life, was one of the creepiest things I've ever read.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Probably safer than the pharmacological approaches to achieving the same goal...

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[AdamWill]

...make you think it's a really good idea to zap vague areas of your brain with electricity based on the hilariously incomplete field of neuroscience?

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[megabeck42]

That sounds a lot like Michael Crichton's 1972 novel, "The Terminal Man." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal_Man

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[Mister Liberty]

experience an orgasm?

With my 'previous' girlfriend? The visual cortex. Man was she ugly.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, and the scary thing is that there's actually evidence to support the notion that ones neurobiology can cause uncontrollable rage when not treated.

I've personally got a few brain injuries that have caused me trouble over the years. I would strongly advise people to take care of their heads as even a small amount of damage to the wrong place can cause long term problems. And at this stage, there's still a ton of research that needs doing just to understand how the brain works.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[Jeremi]

...make you think it's a really good idea to zap vague areas of your brain with electricity based on the hilariously incomplete field of neuroscience?

Yeah, it's really dumb, but so is sniffing glue, or using meth, or cocaine, or smoking cigarettes, or any of several dozen other unhealthy habits you could name.

There are plenty of people out their who are willing to ignore any amount of long-term consequences in return for a short-term reward.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[KGIII]

I don't imagine that most people would use it much like most people aren't opiate euphoria seekers.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[KGIII]

Absolutely. Hell, I will confess right now. If it would cause a euphoric/high state then I'd certainly try it. I've tried all sorts of other things (many of them bad for me) and I still even happily pursue some of those substances to this day. It is a trade off though. Why would I want to live forever if I'm not having a good time? My brain is wired so that I'm generally not having a good time so I self-medicate and enjoy life, my time here, and I accept that it may well kill me at some point.

My personal preferences, should you care, are opiates. I am a big fan. I also smoke weed but that's probably not all that harmful. I am also no longer in a position where I need to be responsible, I avoid operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated, and I'm not needing to commit any criminal offenses (other than acquisition and use of said narcotics) to maintain my lifestyle. So, yeah, it is a choice in my case and it is better than the variety of prescribed things that were supposed to make me happy. As near as I can tell the side effects and health risks are actually less and lower than they were with the prescribed stuff.

You remember that commercial back in the early 1980s about how nobody wants to be a junky when they grow up? They were lying. Lots of people want to be. Lots of people choose to be. There's a pretty sizable percentage of the population who uses but you only notice the ones who can't do so and remain functional. You only see or hear about the ones on the street corner or living in a box. They're actually a pretty small subset of users. They probably also have other issues than abuse or addiction issues. They get the spotlight because, well, frankly it's illegal and there's a social stigma attached which means we're not exactly going to go out and interview for television shows and newspapers. Many of us function just fine with families, friends, careers, and lives.

Is it dumb? I don't think I would go that far and make that accusation. I'd say it is a choice. Some of us have no desire to live for as long as we physically can. We see no point in it. Some of us would rather worry more about quality than quantity. You can drive your Honda Accord life (it's nice enough, it's reliable, it is safe, and it makes you happy) while there are others who want to have our BMW 740ils (we have style, live fast, cost a lot more, pick up the cute chicks, are fun, and it makes us happy). The idea that we should try to prolong our lives for as long as we can is foolish, selfish, and ignorant in my opinion. Quality over quantity, any day. So long as we're not causing harm to others then I fail to see where the idea that it is dumb (or wrong, or unethical) comes into play.

I don't blame people for thinking that way though. They've been brainwashed into that line of thought for their entire lives. We're taught that we should live healthy and long lives. We're taught that we should eschew mind altering substances. We're told that we should OBEY THE LAW! We're taught that thinking for ourselves is wrong. So, yeah, I understand people who would follow society's rules. I understand that but I don't personally subscribe to such. I'd rather experience what I can today more than I'd rather wonder about life could have been while sitting damned near useless in a nursing home bed. And yeah, I'm old. These aren't the sentiments of youthful ideology. They're the expressions of someone who's experienced it, given it great thought, made his own choices, lived according to those choices, and has had great success with his method.

What you, personally, do or believe is entirely up to you but I'd hardly call it dumb just because you don't understand it. That seems a little lacking if you ask me. I suppose it is instinct to call it dumb if you don't understand it or have been taught to think a different way so, really, I don't blame you. I'd think the same thing too if I hadn't dared look on the other side of the curtain and think it through for myself.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheaper, too. This was a significant point in Niven's fictional universe: those people who were inclined to try some recreational pleasure-stimulation would become wireheads rather than buying drugs. Pay once for the operation to install the wire; after that, all you need to pay for is a trickle of electric power. None of the crime associated with drugs: there's not enough money in it to interest dealers, and the addicts don't need to turn to crime to pay for their fix.

Since wireheads tended not to breed (how can sex compare to wireheading?), a bit of rapid evolution went on: a few centuries later, the sort of pleasure-seeking that leads to drug use was a very rare trait in humanity.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[dyingtolive]

Not yet. We require an answer, preferably with specifics on voltage and current.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[SuricouRaven]

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6169924
0.4v, 250ms pulses.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[SuricouRaven]

The THC itsself probably isn't harmful, but the smoke inhalation will ruin your lungs. Fortunately there are other ways to get at the THC than burning.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[Sqr(twg)]

But this wroks! Befor I zap my bairn, I could'nt spel, or wrote grammatical corect sentuns. Now, evrythin I wrote look like was wrote by cool-age prfessor!

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[abies]

"stimulating electrodes are placed in the spinal canal via a needle inserted between the appropriate vertebrae in parallel with the spinal cord. The electrodes are connected to a power source"

I'll wait for strap-on version.

Re:Which part of the brain do you need to zap to

[smooth wombat]

Had you paid attention, Leslie Winkle has already told you where to put the electrode:

Leslie: You stick electrodes in a rat's brain, give him an orgasm button, he'll push that thing until he starves to death.

Leonard: Well, who wouldn't?

Leslie: Well, the only difference between us and the rat is that you can't stick an electrode in our hypothalamus. That's where you come in.

we can also expect...

[HockeyPuck]

An increase in vegetables in the next few years as well.

Re:we can also expect...

[Pseudonym Authority]

It's actually not even a plant.

Re:we can also expect...

[Jane Q. Public]

"An increase in vegetables in the next few years as well."

"What a load of BS. Look, all you have to do is stick these things to your forehead and flip this little chromium sw... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZTTT. Huh? Wut?"

Re:we can also expect...

[LordLimecat]

Vegetable is a culinary term that includes mushrooms (which are fungi), tomatoes (which are classified scientifically as fruits), and olives (likewise technically fruits).

Not sure I could come up with any others.

Re:Will it also

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't look like it.

Open Research...

[vettemph]

This is great so long as everything is published as they go. Waveforms, Impulse frequency or duration, Pulse train frequency, electrode placements, signal voltage and current. Don't let this get taken over by the industrialists.
    Also, publish your data BEFORE you use the signal. If you die, we need to know what did it. :)

Re:Open Research...

[Charliemopps]

One problem with your idea... everyones brain is completely different. When actual scientists do this they do multiple high resolution MRIs of the patients brain and study them for months before trying anything. Then they apply very tightly controlled current to tiny areas of the brain. What these people are doing is just as likely to turn on the "homicidal rage" part of their brains as it is anything else.

Re:Open Research...

[Kell Bengal]

This approach has killed the space program.

exploration is done by bold people who die

Sir, I politely call your attention to the 30 astronauts and cosmonauts who lost their lives in spaceflight and training, and to whom we owe the space program's continued successes around the globe. These men and women gladly risked their lives to advance science and technology and they are heroes, every one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_disasters

Re:Open Research...

[hedwards]

Sort of, there is a ton of variability, but MRIs are pretty much worthless for this type of work. They'll show you where the neurons are, but they give very little information about how they're actually connected together.

There's stuff like SPECT and fMRIs that will do that. And ultimately, even the highest resolution imaging is still going to be insufficient with regards to implanting things where they belong, due to the density of the brain.

I've been reading up a lot on it lately, and I believe that in the near future there's going to be a lot more of these imaging tests done when people come in for treatment with any sort of complex neurological or psychiatric problems.

Re:Open Research...

[ridgecritter]

I concur with your caution that peoples' brains differ, so we might expect that YMMV regarding the results of TCDS. I disagree that "When actual scientists do this they do multiple high resolution MRIs...". That's the exception, not the rule.

In my collection of 108 papers on TCDS, use of advanced imaging methods as a study enrollment screener happened in 7 of them. The technology seems (so far, anyway) pretty benign. For example, in one study of 815 TCDS sessions in 100 migraine patients, there were no observed adverse events ("Safety of the transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS): evaluation of 815 tDCS sessions in 100 chronic- pain patients"). Not to say that it's free of risk, nor that longer-term adverse effects won't crop up, but for those who stay within the generally used current density limits, etc., there probably isn't a lot to worry about.

I'm much more concerned about people deciding that a 9v battery is just so inconvenient, they'll run it off that 9v wall wart. The one with the failed ground isolation. The really cheap one that fails in a way that puts line voltage on the scalp electrodes just when the user happens to touch a grounded thing. etc. Some think that because they can buy a case and motherboard at Fry's and boot Windows, they're a biomedical EE. These folks may get selected out, or become somewhat dimmer bulbs.

Re:Open Research...

[Maxo-Texas]

And the result of that was that we got *so* cautious that we essentially stopped going to space entirely.

I politely call your attention to all the astronauts who trained and will never be able to go to space.

Going to space is dangerous. People will die.

Look at the numbers willing to go to Mars, one way, and die before they would on earth.

Re:Open Research...

[Sperbels]

And the result of that was that we got *so* cautious that we essentially stopped going to space entirely.

I don't know if we can blame that on astronauts dying. The same over cautiousness can be seen everywhere in American society now. It's what people are talking about when they complain about the "nanny state".

Re:Open Research...

[Jane Q. Public]

"his is great so long as everything is published as they go. Waveforms, Impulse frequency or duration..."

This is known as The First Principle of Exploration. Also known as "Make sure everybody knows what killed you."

Re:Open Research...

[Maxo-Texas]

By the way... how many people do you think died settling the eastern colonies of the america (not counting the native americans who they killed sooner or later)?

How many settling the midwest? The west?

Entire groups died to the last person.

If sending up a rocket with 98% safety vs 99% safety safety costs 1x, 10x, -- think how many you could send to space by accepting 2 failures per hundred launches instead of 1 failure per hundred launches.

Over 100 people died in the construction of the Hoover Dam.

Five workers died constructing the empire state building.

We had 3 people die on our SAP software project plus multiple heart attacks and divorces.

At least space means something compared to implementing a software package that won't probably be used in 30 years.

We don't need extremely expensive heroes- we need construction workers to throw stuff up into space cheap. We need a moon base extracting materials before the legal and financial hurdles get so great we end up stuck here.

also, you will go blind.

[decora]

not to mention growing hairy palms.

Re:also, you will go blind.

[Ol Biscuitbarrel]

Oh, so you're a titch more hirsute. That's an acceptable tradeoff for becoming a multi-tasking number crunching crack shot with perfect pitch who doesn't forget anything. And let's throw in some beer goggles while we're at it.

How do you go blind and become a crack shot, anyway?

Re:also, you will go blind.

[fustakrakich]

...and tin whiskers...

The only question I have is:

[donaggie03]

Where can I get one??

Re:The only question I have is:

[craigminah]

Gimme a few days and I'll solder one together for you in my basement out of some old kitchen appliances. I guarantee it won't turn you into a vegetable and if it does, good luck finding me without slipping in all your drool.

Placebo effect?

[Mr. Underbridge]

zapped his brain's auditory cortex with a mild dose of electricity. The result, he claims, was a dramatic improvement in his ability to hear pitch, including the sour notes he produced himself.

How the hell would he know if it didn't? Can we get testimonials of his friends? Otherwise, I'm claiming placebo effect.

Re:Placebo effect?

[bentcd]

How the hell would he know if it didn't? Can we get testimonials of his friends? Otherwise, I'm claiming placebo effect.

"he strapped on the electrodes of a device made by his Edmonton company"

I claim greed effect. (Emphasis mine)

Wireheads?

[steveha]

It is by now an old trope in science fiction: the idea that people will have electrodes installed to directly stimulate the pleasure center of their brains. It's kind of a frightening idea: on the one hand, it would be a "high" that shouldn't damage you, but on the other hand it is likely to be so intensely pleasurable that it's fiendishly addictive. Larry Niven wrote stories where "wireheads" routinely would starve to death, feeling such intense pleasure that they forgot to do anything else including eat. He furthermore imagined that the "dealers" who sold wirehead gear had an "induction" helmet that could provide a taste of the experience without implanting the electrodes, and his protagonist narrator commented that this really wasn't fair.

This seems like a possible technology, and possible things tend to happen eventually. But I haven't heard of it happening in the real world yet. I'm wondering if it's coming.

Re:Wireheads?

[cpuffer_hammer]

Spider Robinson's Mindkiller
Takes a good look at this. Wonderful scene where a cat burgle find a nearly dead wire head and disconnects her.

Scientists HATE Him!

[Anonymous Coward]

Click here to find out how this 47-year-old local patriot discovered one "weird" old trick to stimulate the brain and end slavery to Obama's mind control.

Here

[Okian Warrior]

Here is the company referenced in the article.

About $200 - $300, depending on the product and functionality. And best of all - it's completely [medical device] unregulated!

I remember

[Cosgrach]

I worked for a company the built medical diagnostic (EEG & ECG) and treatment (TENS) equipment. We had a few prototype stimulation units that one salesman had the bright idea of connecting up to his brain. It's output was really limited (on the order of a few micro amps) using electrodes attached to his ear-lobes. Turn it on with a low frequency sine wave (1 - 2 Hz) and watch the fun. It was interesting to watch his eyes scan back and forth like a Cylon. The sign wave was super-imposed on the normal impulses, so he could still direct his eyes, but really funny if he was trying to keep his eyes focused on one thing.

I have no doubt that he was doing damage along the way (but hell, he was only a salesman). He claimed that it made him feel high. The stupid bastard was even driving his car with the thing hooked up.

However, you can have all manor of fun with a good TENS unit.

Wow.

Re:I remember

[KGIII]

That would be a great name for a boutique hotel, "Manor of Fun!"

Re: Republicans should "go for it"

[Ol Olsoc]

That was a very quick escalation from a little joke to playing the racism card.

There must be a record for that.

"WHOOSH" in all caps maybe?

Re: Republicans should "go for it"

[hedwards]

Because you get to choose whether or not you're a member of the party.

I'm not responsible for the actions of other white men, unless I permit their behavior, but I am partially responsible for the behavior of any group I join.

As for discriminating against the GOP, they're main reason for existing is to discriminate against anybody that isn't in their shrinking clique. Sexual minorities, Muslims, the poor, children et al., are groups that they regularly act to marginalize.

Re:The old is new again

[dead_user]

And they really work, too. I have one. When I tore my rotator cuff in college, I had a choice of surgery and maybe getting back 85% of my movement back, or trying a muscle stimulator, or TENS machine. I used it on the torn shoulder set well below the pain threshold for a few weeks and then started slowly working it up. After a few months I was already past 85% movement and still improving. Now, an unmentionable number of years later, I'm playing racketball again with 100% range of motion. For six hundred dollars. And no pain.

That being said, no amount of money would get me to stick it anywhere near my head. Shudder. The machine I got is capable of making your muscles rip themselves apart. If you overestimate when you increase the power, you effectively taze yourself. The only good thing is you know there's a rest period in a few seconds so you can stop it. It hurts. A LOT. I know. ;)

Re:Republicans should "go for it"

[Dishevel]

I always wondered how stupid a person would have to be to think that one side of the government loves them more than the other.
Can you please post your IQ?

Everything that helps natural selection.

[mha]

Medicine helped AGAINST natural selection (a little bit - mostly through helping babies survive, no need to overvalue its contribution though since its relevant mostly during lower ages (though not exclusively due to indirect effects when grandparents help raise children).

Such movements may help increasing natural selection.

So I'm all for it, since I'll sit at the sidelines at let other people be the lab rats to find the 0.0001% of stuff that actually works and is useful (longterm).

Firsthand experience with surface stimulation

[MillionthMonkey]

I had my brain connected once to a pulse generator via a surface grid of electrodes. (This was before epilepsy surgery at Stanford, and most of the grid was on the right occipital cortex.) During this procedure they would send an increasing series of pulses of 5, 10, 20 mA etc. down to each grid position and ask if I saw anything after each one.

About 80% of the electrodes were actually kind of boring. They would produce a characteristic speckling somewhere in the leftward field of view at a certain radius and angle. Other electrodes made very weird stuff appear. One caused everything on the left side of the room to suddenly look extremely brightly hued. It looked like a grocery aisle with cheap fruit drinks. The colors got more intense with additional current.

There was a problem near the end with a bunch of uncomfortable hallucinations. Every tiny little point from the pulse generator had this upsetting weird look to it, like a kitten with its head crushed. They somehow weren't going away, and I started bitching about something seeming to accumulate in my field of vision.

They told me at this point that my brain wasn't correctly grounded to the bed frame. I wasn't able to ground it myself since all I could reach on the bed was plastic. As soon as they regrounded it, for a split second I saw some sort of bright thunderbolt approach from the left and sweep all the stuff away. It felt like a relief somehow but I'm not sure WTF I was seeing.

Re:Republicans should "go for it"

[tlambert]

The GOP is an opt in grouping of individuals based upon having similar views. These views include disbelief in climate change and skepticism science in general[...]

Citation needed - their platform is here, and contains none of the things you claim it contains:

http://www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/

No, I'm not a Republican, I'm just sick of seeing shit slung at political groups without supporting evidence.

Re:Republicans should "go for it"

[LordLimecat]

These views include disbelief in climate change

News to me.

skepticism science in general

Do tell!

Really, please do keep telling me what I believe. Here I thought I just had socially and fiscally conservative leanings; who knows what else you can tell me about my views!

Several answers

[tlambert]

"Which part of the brain do you need to zap to" ...

...make you think it's a really good idea to zap vague areas of your brain with electricity based on the hilariously incomplete field of neuroscience?

Several answers:

* The part that makes someone an experimental neuroscientist of the type which are currently conducting this research?
* The part that allow Marie Curie to kill herself with radiation poisoning before it was known radiation was dangerous?
* The part that caused Thomas Edison to do shotgun testing of materials for a lightbulb filament?
* The part that caused Johnny Knoxville to make the Jackass series?
* The part that caused Geoffrey Robson to kill himself while working to improve wingsuits?
* The part that caused Virgil "Gus" Grissom, Edward H. White, and Roger B. Chaffee to allow themselves to be bolted into Apollo 1?
* The part that caused Vijay Pande to believe crowd-sourcing science was a good idea?
* etc.

Pick your part.

Re: Republicans should "go for it"

[Chrisq]

So you think discriminating a political party and stereotyping everyone within it is ok?

What about the Nazi party?

Re: Republicans should "go for it"

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes.. let's force all the pregnant teenagers, crackheads and prostitutes to have even more children ! The children are obviously going to enjoy their wonderful life ! Pro-life ! Yay !!!

Re: Republicans should "go for it"

[tlambert]

Given that you once again provided no citations (assuming you are the same person, and not a new one who also fails to provide citations for your attack posts), I guess you are talking about David Duke, who first tried to run as a presidential candidate as a Democrat in 1988, and then as a Republican in 1992, and failed to get traction in either case because neither party would have him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke

So your reasoned and well thought out political argument is the same one used by children who do not want to pick up their toys, to wit: "You touched it last!"; is that the gist of it?

What I got from those incidents was that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want anything to do with the KKK, regardless of their preferences -- which, given the Duke candidacies, appears to be "either of the two major parties where we can get our camel's nose into their tent", rather than an expressed preference.

Unless you has someone else in mind? Citation needed.

Re:Republicans should "go for it"

[lpp]

Don't forget their irrational loathing of homosexuality.

But the GOP fear of homosexuals is demonstrably NOT irrational. If homosexuals had their way, no GOP would ever get elected.

Re: Republicans should "go for it"

[geminidomino]

Somehow this is being translated into "GOP hates children", which is laughable.

At least until they're born. After that, fuck 'em, they're on their own, right?

Re:Republicans should "go for it"

[Richy_T]

Way to stereotype homosexuals.