Proposed Rule Would Drastically Restrict Chimp Research

New rules for labs that use chimpanzees as test subjects may be on the horizon. From the New York Times blog: "The Fish and Wildlife Service proposal came in response to a petition filed in 2010 by the Jane Goodall Institute, the Humane Society of the United States, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums and other groups. It would require permits for interstate commerce involving any chimpanzees, or for what the law calls 'taking,' which could be anything from harassment to major harm to something as simple as obtaining a blood sample. And those permits, Mr. Ashe said, would be granted only if the action could be shown to benefit the survival of the species. If the new rule is enacted, it will be a major success for animal welfare groups, a grave disappointment for some scientists and another sign of the profound changes over the last half-century in the way animals are used and imagined in science and popular culture." The L.A. Times lauds the proposed rule change in an editorial.

Comments

Already not in use

[54mc]

From TFA:

In fact, most of the roughly 1,000 chimps held at biomedical laboratories are not being used.

I'd be curious why this is - already too much regulation? The article goes on to say that they hope to pass them on to shelters. I'd certainly hope that's the case if they're not being utilized

Re:Already not in use

[Trepidity]

Partly because there's been a decreasing number of cases where the scientific consensus is that the use of chimpanzees as animal models is needed, relative to alternatives. Since you need to convince an Institutional Review Board (for any study, not only involving chimps) that your study is necessary, beneficial, and the best choice relative to alternatives when considering both scientific merit and ethics, there are a decreasing number of cases where IRBs approve chimpanzee studies. Cost is also a factor besides IRB issues: if you can do something without chimps, it's usually cheaper to take that option.

Here's a blurb from the National Research Council's 2011 study on the subject, in which they set up a "Committee on the Use of Chimpanzees in Biomedical and Behavioral Research" to assess the current situation and make recommendations:

While the chimpanzee has been a valuable animal model in past research, most current use of chimpanzees for biomedical research is unnecessary, based on the criteria established by the committee, except potentially for two current research uses:

1. Development of future monoclonal antibody therapies will not require the chimpanzee, due to currently available technologies. However, there may be a limited number of monoclonal antibodies already in the development pipeline that may require the continued use of chimpanzees.

2. The committee was evenly split and unable to reach consensus on the necessity of the chimpanzee for the development of a prophylactic hepatitis C virus (HCV) vaccine. Specifically, the committee could not reach agreement on whether a preclinical challenge study using the chimpanzee model was necessary and if or how much the chimpanzee model would accelerate or improve prophylactic HCV vaccine development.

That's from the biomedical-research recommendations; their conclusions on behavior research were that chimpanzee models may still be quite valuable in that area. In addition, they recommended that genomics research using chimpanzee genomes was both valuable and of relatively little ethical concern, so should continue.

Re:Already not in use

[Immerman]

I'd bet they are, at best, kept in a relatively sterile cage rather like a dog kennel. Shelters on the other hand tend to acknolwedge that these are animals almost as psychologically sophisticated as us and provide vegetation, recreational facilites, and usually large open-air spaces. Ask any human prisoner and I'll bet good money that they say that getting time outdoors, even in the generally bleak and barren prison yard, is a precious privilege. And while we can think a lot better than chimps our emotional framework seems to be almost identcal.

Basically, the chimps will be prisoners either way, but would you rather be the prisoner of someone who feels respect and compassion for you, or someone who's livelihood depends on torturing and dissecting you and will thus almost certainly de-humanize (for lack of a better word) you as much as posible for their own psychological well-being.

Great news

[russotto]

...for the biological and biomedical research industries of other countries.

interesting list of supporters

[Trepidity]

The fact that the Association of Zoos and Aquariums is involved makes me suspect there might be something more to this story than just activist opposition to research involving primates. That association tends to not be very political, and instead is focused more on best practices for zoos, and how to combat things like poaching for the pet or traditional-medicine industries.

Trust First Comment to be a Nutter

[tuppe666]

Leave the chimps alone. In fact, we should dedicate a greater share of the world to the rest of the planet's creatures, and that includes limiting the harmful effects of our pollution and industry not because of politics but simply because we have such a precious and finite resource in this jewel of the Earth and the delicate beauty of Life.

This is about infinite resource of furry beautiful creatures bred specifically for the purpose of (often) having short unpleasant painful life, for the sake of the possibility (patents permitting and money exchanged) of saving...or preventing damage to humans...Discuss.

This has nothing to do with pollution, or the misuse of the planets finite resources. Its about everything from research on dogs means diabetics today don't die, or humans don't do blind by spaying shampoo in baby rabbits eyes (the fact that the discussion is about chimps at all annoys me...as they are prettier). Its not pretty, its ugly science. The only real question is the validity of that science.

Re:Good! More social power!

[Black Parrot]

Also, the Federation is more likely to contact us and invite us to join, when we give up using intelligent species as experimental subjects.

Re:thank god

[JustNiz]

The average intelligence of the government would double?

Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Immerman]

> The only real question is the validity of that science.
Also the moral price of that science. The discussion is about chimps instead of rabbits because the evidence all points to chimps being almost as sapient as us, the rabbits... not so much. And sapience is pretty much the only thing we can point to when trying to claim humans are "better" than other animals. Take away that yardstick and we may as well be experimenting directly on humans.

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Time_Ngler]

Fuck nature.

Nature itself is one constant experiment to promote successful genes and weed out unsuccessful ones. That fear of falling from a great height you have? Millions or billions of creatures had to fall from cliffs for that. Those wonderful ocular orbs which are versatile to see in bright sunlight and very dim night light, millions or billions of creatures that could not see as well were caught and eaten by predators, too.

These experiments that scientists are doing, what maybe at most a 100 thousand creatures died in the last century for them? And what about all the people that were saved by that? The ratio of benefit vs suffering is much better from the experiments we carry out on our own, rather than the giant wasteful experiment that nature carries out.

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Will.Woodhull]

Parent post argument is at least 25 years out of date.

A lot of the research that was only possible using animals then can now be done by non-invasive means and computer simulations. The day when almost all research can be done this way is not far off. This is not because the new ways are ethically better (even though they are). It is because the new ways allow faster and more comprehensive studies at much lower total costs. It is indeed time to consider using legal ways to force the biological R & D industry to upgrade its skills.

The problem is that a lot of today's researchers have skills in applying electric shocks and scalpels to research animals that do not transfer to reading MRI scans or improving computer simulations. As a group, these persons are going to be as opposed to the inevitable changes as the wagon drivers, farriers, and livery stable owners opposed the New York City laws that began favoring automobiles and trucks. Using legalities to prod the industries they influence to evolve is not a bad thing to do.

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Immerman]

I have to disagree. Yes, creatures die all the time, that mutation are the key to evolution. But by your own argument why whouldn't we simply lock *you* in the cage for experimentation? The results would be far more useful than those from chimps.

You can claim to embrace a world without moral consideration, but I'm betting the instant its you being tortured on the front lines of scientific advancement you're going to start crying about fairness and justice and your rights being violated. But hey, clearly you're inferior to all the people who weren't tranquilized while walking down the street, so why should we care about your plight.

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Immerman]

>The day when almost all research can be done this way is not far off.

Maybe not on geologic timescales...

Sure, we'll have simulated test subjects suitable for high school and maybe even undergraduate level "experiments" before long. But we're probably a long way away from being able to simulate even the simplest animals on a molecular level, and anything short of that has limited utility to original research. Sure, if we simulate all the known chemical responses then we can get a first-order approximation of reactions to screen for any unanticipated side effects within the realm of known responses, and millions of mice and grad student hours will be saved from time-consuming preliminary experiments (presumably I can set my experiment running and come back in the morning to see in painstaking detail the possible progress of a ten-year exposure). But that won't actually tell you anything about the effect on poorly understood processes, which at present are still most of them.

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[lgw]

No, that wasn't his claim. His claim is that nature is a world without moral consideration, and we're treating chimps no worse than nature does (and far better than chimps treat others - they're vicious hunters), in a way that produces real and measurable moral good as a consequence.
 

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Bowling Moses]

"A key part of the problem is that too many of today's researchers are only trained in the techniques that were made elegant 100 years ago and naturally see the increasing use of newer technology as a threat to their way of life."

I do biological research for a living, and have done so for many years, in multiple different fields, in different universities and now in the biotech/pharma industry. No technique I use existed 100 years ago any more than any technique a programmer uses existed 100 years ago. The majority of biochemistry and molecular biology techniques that I use have their primitive origins in the 1960s-1990s, depending on what the technique is, and the overwhelming majority have been heavily modified, adapted, repurposed, and improved since their introduction. Far from being afraid of new technologies and new techniques biologists are absolutely driven to use them, find them, adapt them, and invent them. Who do you think comes up with new techniques, including computer simulations relevant to biological research? People who do biological research of course! There are whole research journals devoted to nothing but new techniques, every one of them invented by some variety of biologist! There are hundreds of biotechnology companies where biologists do little else besides come up with new techniques (yes, including computer simulations and programs) that they can then package and sell to other biologists. Pharmaceutical companies spend many millions of dollars testing new techniques--I've got several different projects assigned to me right now that are nothing but testing and adapting new technologies. A pharmaceutical company that is not constantly innovating goes bankrupt, and a biologist who doesn't innovate is an unemployed and starving biologist.

Re:Valid science isn't the only yardstick.

[Weedlekin]

Some points: (1) All figures in the article are from organisations who are known for their exaggerated estimates (the article itself says that the figures are "inflated"); and (2) even if that were not the case, the 115,000 figure is for primates, the vast majority of which will have been monkeys that are specially bred for the purpose to ensure that they aren't carrying any diseases which could effect experimental results. Chimps are very rarely used as lab animals because they are slow breeders, and sexually mature chimps (without which they cannot be bred) require special enclosures and trained handlers, because pissed off adult chimps that get loose tend to rip peoples' faces off.

It should also be noted that vivisection and animal research are not the same thing at all, although the organisations who produced the figures would like us to think that they are. Biologists, geneticists, gerontologists, congitive and behaviour specialist, and various other types of scientist publish a large body of research every year which based on animals, many (but far from all) of which are in labs, but the very nature of the research precludes harming the subjects, either physically or psychologically. Given the history of the sources, I doubt that they even tried to filter out these types of research from their figures.

Mixed Morality

[tuppe666]

Also the moral price of that science. The discussion is about chimps instead of rabbits because the evidence all points to chimps being almost as sapient as us, the rabbits... not so much

Chimps are not human...or even nearly human(sentient?). They are perhaps genetically closer to us which means they are better to test on than rabbits. Personally I would like a ban on testing fluffy rabbits...and more testing on chimps, as it seems less wasteful.

Ironically we already do trials on humans, even in progressive countries, which are done by those who have no other means of income, and with no understanding of the risks involved. I actually think that is morally wrong.

Re:Mixed Morality

[Randle_Revar]

No, they *are* nearly human, that is the point. And they are sentient, sapient, and self-aware

Re:Mixed Morality

[Roger W Moore]

They are generally accepted as less sapient (inteligent, wise, capable of abstract thought) than us, but the difference is not as wide as you might think - roughly comparable to a 4 to 5-year old human child IIRC.

4 and 5 years old kids can talk, read, write and paint recognizable objects. Chimps cannot. They may be smart but they are not at the same level as even a 4-5 year old child.

Killing Politicians

[tuppe666]

Replace chimp with politician and see how fast things change.

The average intelligence of the government would double?

I have included the parent quote as I am astonished at the stupidity. I suspect everyone were is of the opinion that the problem with politicians is that whatever the politics, they are generally greedy and self serving...and they are (generally...ignoring political families) defiantly not stupid.

Ironically this is about *testing* Corporations would love nothing more than to do less...as its expensive and delays product to markets, and would love an excuse to skip killing chips...and then just pay of a few underprivileged people who have temporary permeate physical and mental damage and death.

This is about politicians protecting us with unpopular choices...until now.

Re:Killing Politicians

[lxs]

I have trouble finding the downside to that scenario.

Re:Killing Politicians

[Will.Woodhull]

I'm having trouble following the mostly hidden logic behind parent post. It seems to address two distinctly different issues.

With regard to politicians, they are most definitely a self-selected group of persons who are willing, and successful, at advancing their personal agendas by portraying themselves as champions of this or that group. The average amount of lying, fraud, deceit, and associated crimes of politicians is naturally going to be much higher than the average for the general population. Culling politicians would therefore improve the species. It is not about how stupid they are; it is about how their moral compass is all twisted up. So, since effective ostracism (an acceptable form of culling introduced by the Greeks) will not be possible until we have established a lunar colony, using politicians as primates in various experiments should be on the table. (There might be better solutions, but this one is worthy of considering).

WRT using chimps in testing, that is now so bogus. The automobile has replaced the horse and buggy and freed horses for their rightful place as pampered pets (there are now more horses in the USA than there were in 1899-- hoowoodathunkit?) The MRI and computer simulations are now replacing the old fashioned use of chimps in the laboratory. There is no question that sooner or later the nasty old ways of doing biological research are going to become history, just like the horse and buggy, replaced by technology that can do the job faster, better, and without exploiting some other species. The only question is when do we pass the laws that will force today's buggy whip manufacturers to find some better source of employment?

This will cause a shake-up in the research and development industry, as the employment opportunities of persons who have spent their careers developing skills in carving up the brains of primates will be out of work and unemployable. Along with a host of other specialists in supporting roles. A lot of these people are quite likely incapable of finding other work. It requires a certain kind of blockage of normal human empathy to slice and dice a chimpanzee, and without that a lot of job opportunities will be closed to these individuals with their self-inflicted damage to their psyches.

A Tangent

[Firethorn]

Your post reminded me about how Rhinos are endangered due to the black market value of their horn, the sale of which was made completely illegal in order to protect them...

There's numerous people who argue that if you legalized the sale of non-lethally harvested horns* from ranched Rhinos, their endangered status would go away because the black market would essentially be no more.

*Rhino horn is essentially fused hair; it grows back!