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Lawmakers Try To Block Black Box Technology In Cars, DVR Tracking

Posted by samzenpus on from the will-you-stop-following-me dept.

Lucas123 writes "Lawmakers this week filed bipartisan legislation that would give car owners control over data collected in black box-style recorders that may be required in all models as soon as next year. The move follows a separate proposal made earlier this month that would limit telecommunications companies in tracking viewer activity with new digital video recorders (DVR) technology. The 'Black Box Privacy Protection Act' would give vehicle owners more control over the information collected through a car or motorcycle event data recorders, which the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has proposed be required in all new cars as of 2014. 'For me, this is a basic issue of privacy,' said Rep. Mike Capuano (D-MA). 'Many consumers aren't even aware that this technology is already in most vehicles.' The second, more colorfully titled piece of legislation, is the 'We Are Watching You Act'. The bill was filed in response to reports that national telecommunications companies are exploring technology for DVRs that would record the personal activities of people as they watch television at home in order to target them for marketing and advertising. If implemented, among other things, when the recording device is in use, the words 'WE ARE WATCHING YOU' would appear on the television screen. 'This may sound preposterous, but it is neither a joke nor an exaggeration,' Capuano said. 'These DVRs would essentially observe consumers as they watch television as a way to super-target ads. It is an incredible invasion of privacy.'"

12 of 167 comments (clear)

  1. I wouldn't mind it if... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually I wouldn't mind having a black box in the car recording everything... IF I have access to the data. I've contemplated wiring up cameras and building a small server to continuously record front and rear views, so if there's an accident or something and there's questions about what happened I can pull up the video and say "Here, watch what happened.". Having had friends who've been dinged for rear-ending someone because they got rear-ended and shoved forward, I think it'd be wonderful to be able to pull up the black box record and prove that I was stationary with the engine at idle and the brake fully applied when the collision occurred and could not have been the cause.

    What I object to isn't the black box itself. It's having that black box there and not having any access to it or control over or even knowledge of who's pulling the data from it and when.

    1. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by ebno-10db · · Score: 5, Informative

      Dashboard cams are very common in Russia. That's why so many people got good shots of the meteorites. Apparently the cams are useful when dealing with some of the local LEO's.

    2. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by sribe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually I wouldn't mind having a black box in the car recording everything... IF I have access to the data. I've contemplated wiring up cameras and building a small server to continuously record front and rear views, so if there's an accident or something and there's questions about what happened I can pull up the video and say "Here, watch what happened.". Having had friends who've been dinged for rear-ending someone because they got rear-ended and shoved forward, I think it'd be wonderful to be able to pull up the black box record and prove that I was stationary with the engine at idle and the brake fully applied when the collision occurred and could not have been the cause.

      Exactly this. 3 years ago the wife was the middle car of 3 sitting stopped at a light. A 4th car rear-ended the car behind her hard enough to shove them all together and push the front car through the crosswalk. 3 years of constant pain, spinal surgery, physical therapy, countless outpatient procedures, cognitive therapy, and because the damages to the cars were not major, the at-fault driver's insurance company has maintained that she could not possibly have been injured in that accident. The latest is their bullshit engineering analysis, claiming that the at-fault driver was going 3-4 miles per hour--to me that is so obviously an impossible conclusion that I'm astounded that a licensed engineer would put his name to it--I just hope their lawyer is not able to baffle a jury into believing such a steaming pile. Responding police officer did not remotely do her job, and damn I wish the at-fault car would have had a black-box data recorder, and that the data from it would have been captured at that time.

    3. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by ebno-10db · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If users had write access to the black-box, then trust in it wouldn't exist, thus defeating the point of the black-box itself. You can make-up any data and put it in there, including fake video footage.

      By that reasoning almost all video and photos should not be allowed as evidence. How easy do you think it is to fake video of your car getting hit? Any video or photo is much better than the fabled eyewitness testimony, which has been shown to be incredibly unreliable, even if the witness has no vested interest in the outcome.

    4. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by mjwx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I wouldn't mind having a black box in the car recording everything... IF I have access to the data.

      Here's the argument, access vs control. I'm all for black boxes in cars too (I've already installed a dash cam in my car) but I would also require access to the data.

      That being said, I highly doubt that these things will be tamper proof in the slightest (manufacturers will simply pick the cheapest possible way to comply with the law). Black boxes will be easily hacked so it's a bit of moot point for people who are bad drivers and dont want the proof hanging around (however for good drivers, it does help clear them of fault in an accident).

      I've contemplated wiring up cameras and building a small server to continuously record front and rear views, so if there's an accident or something and there's questions about what happened I can pull up the video and say "Here, watch what happened."

      Most cars already have these sensors available through an ODBII interface, you can get bluetooth ODB connectors off Ebay for $15 and a free application called Torque on Android can read it (IIRC, for full logging you need the full application) so if you want a black box it can be set up with a cheap Android tablet and a dash cam. You could probably even use the Android device as a dash cam (although I haven't seen a mobile device with decent enough video quality to replace my 1080p 30 FPS camera). I've got mine hooked up to my phone, great for diagnosing problems and improving my driving style.

      However dash cam and logging devices are double edged swords. Along with proving you're not at fault, they can also prove you did something wrong and many people in my experience dont know when they're doing something wrong.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    5. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you look in your car manual for any late model vehicle you will find that what you asked for is already there.
      Its usually a very small bit of info, 30 seconds or less.

      My car's manual says this:

      Event Data Recorder (EDR)
      This vehicle is equipped with an event data recorder
      (EDR). The main purpose of an EDR is to record, in
      certain crash or near crash-like situations, such as an air
      bag deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will
      assist in understanding how a vehicle’s systems performed.
      The EDR is designed to record data related to
      vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short period of
      time, typically 30 seconds or less.

      The EDR in this vehicle
      is designed to record such data as:
      How various systems in your vehicle were operating;
      Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts
      were buckled/fastened;
      How far (if at all) the driver was depressing the
      accelerator and/or brake pedal; and,
      How fast the vehicle was traveling.
      These data can help provide a better understanding of
      the circumstances in which crashes and injuries occur.

      NOTE:EDR data are recorded by your vehicle only if a
      non-trivial crash situation occurs; no data are recorded by
      the EDR under normal driving conditions and no personal data (e.g., name, gender, age, and crash location)
      are recorded. However, other parties, such as law enforcement, could combine the EDR data with the type of
      personally identifying data routinely acquired during a
      crash investigation.

      To read data recorded by an EDR, special equipment is
      required      , and access to the vehicle or the EDR is needed.
      In addition to the vehicle manufacturer, other parties,
      such as law enforcement, that have the special equipment, can read the information if they have access to the
      vehicle or the EDR.

      I see no problem with this type of info, because by the time an airbag deploys its already a matter of public safety and police are usually involved.

      Yes there is probably enough info in there to convict you. If you were accelerating at 55mph in a 25mph school zone when you ran over little Billy, you can expect your car to testify against you.

      I see no reason this information shouldn't be available to the owner without the need of special equipment, as long as the car was still able to power the recorder and provide readout somehow. I suspect the requirement for special equipment may be technical (how to power the device on enough to read it) and also legal, to prevent people from clearing the EDR after running over little Billy.

      But it would be nice to know what is in there. Especially when buying a used car.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    6. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who said the issue was space?

      I'd like a 2 minute loop type recorder to ensure my PRIVACY. I see no reason why I would want multiple hours of my driving and find no justification for anyone to have that info from my recorder either.

    7. Re:I wouldn't mind it if... by mjwx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      With Event Data recorders, you don't have to prevent hacking, or erasure. You just have to be able to detect that it occurred.

      There in lies the problem, it's entirely possible to prevent that from being logged.

      Seeing as you have physical access to the hardware it would not be difficult at all. At worst it would be a wholesale replacement of the part with a pre-modified version. But it's far more likely that you'll just have to re-flash the firmware.

      Not that I'd advocate this, but I have to face the reality it will happen.

      The lawyers can data mine these incidents, 5mph over here, unsignaled lane change there, a lane drift on a totally empty road, and put you in the light of a careless driver, and claim that an attentive and defensive driver might have avoided the accident.

      This is why the law is very specific about fault (at least in my country). The road code is a 400 page document, if you printed it out you could use it for self defence.

      Even if you were in violation of one of the more minor road rules, you can still be ruled to be not at fault. I.E. if you were changing lanes at a traffic light (illegal where I live) and someone runs a red and T-Bones you, there was nothing you could do to avoid that accident. Also whilst the events leading up to an accident are taken into account there is a limit of what can be used (I.E. if someone overtakes you and immediately brakes, forcing you to rear-end him, you will be considered not at fault because the other driver acted in an unsafe manner to put you in that position. However an unsignaled lane change 2 minutes previous would not matter as it did not contribute to the event).

      BTW, an unsignaled lane change is the sign of a careless driver, it really should be muscle memory and you shouldn't have to think about it. Failing to do so every now and then is forgivable, but consistently forgetting is the sign of a bad driver. Drifting out of your lane unforgivable, regardless of how full or empty the road is. Anyone who has a history of forgetting to indicate or have trouble staying in their lane is bad driver.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  2. black boxes by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yeah, I got a primitive one in my own car. I just opened it up and wired the nvram reset to the ignition. Whenever the car turns off, it fires the reset. It's an amnesiac vehicle now. Of course, not everyone knows how to do this, but hey.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
  3. There's always the after market for... by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Funny

    Programming/reprogramming these things.

    Judge: Officer Friday, could you please repeat that, I'm not sure I heard it right.

    Friday: Yes, your honor. It appears on Tuesday, June 4th, 2013, the suspect's car was orbiting Europa, in clear violation of the directive to leave this one moon alone.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  4. I purpose an amendment to property law by FuzzNugget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Instead of making little piss-ant changes that affect only specific and limited circumstances, let's make a strong amendment to property law as a pile driver through all the non-ownership bullshit that's been plaguing us for the past 15-20 years.

    If I am making a purchase as a private person (ie: not a business), whatever I've bought is mine. I own it 100%, it's my goddamn property and I will do whatever I fucking want with it (within written law of course)

    No amount of shrinkwrap, ckickwrap, stick-on contracts, implied or non-negotiated "agreements" can change that. Contracts, usage policies and EULAs in which you had no bargaining or direct input are automatically null and void.

    Any attempt by a manufacturer or producer to actively restrict, limit or deny my access to my own property, whether it be a needlessly fortified mechanism or an encrypted system to which I'm not provided the key, is met with swift punishment. The process for customers to address their grievances should be streamlined and available to the general public with minimal expense to the individual.

    Hey, I can dream of a time when corporations won't be the government's puppet master, can't I?

  5. Angry by TheGoodNamesWereGone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It really makes me angry that we as a society have tolerated the creep of this surveillance society for so long like frogs in a pot while the temperature rises to boiling. You can argue that technology made it inevitable, and you're right, it's probably too late now to get the genie back in the bottle. No one knows history. Few people have actually read "1984". There should've been laws against this passed two decades ago, but noooo, it was sold to us as security, and people will fall over themselves to trade freedom for that.