Ask Slashdot: Getting Hired As a Self-Taught Old Guy?

StonyCreekBare writes "How can an autodidact get past the jobs screening process? I have a long track record of success, despite limited formal education. Despite many accomplishments, published papers, and more, I cannot seem to get past the canned hiring process and actually get before a hiring manager. Traditional hiring processes seem to revolve around the education and degrees one holds, not one's track record and accomplishments. Now as an older tech-worker I seem to encounter a double barrier by being gray-haired as well. All prospective employers seem to see is a gray-haired old guy with no formal degrees. The jobs always seem to go to the younger guys with impressive degrees, despite a total lack of accomplishment. How can an accomplished, if gray-haired, self-educated techie get a foot in the door?"

Comments

Start your own

[Anonymous Coward]

business :)

Re:Start your own

[bonehead]

If you are anything outside of the "norm" in the field, the best advice I can give you comes in two parts:

1.) Be willing to work for a little less than the going rate.

2.) Focus on smaller companies who are less likely to have automated resume screening systems. Wouldn't hurt if the owner of the company had a little gray himself.

The truth is that although it's better than 3 years ago, the job market is still a bitch. Don't give up, and hard as it may be, don't take rejections personally and let them get you down on yourself.

Re:Start your own

[bonehead]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Hate to break it to you junior, but the gray hair comes creeping in LONG before retirement age is getting anywhere near.

Re:Start your own

[Em Adespoton]

3.) Network. You're likely to get your best paying gigs as contractor/consultant via people who know you. One of the things you tend to get along with the accomplishments and gray hairs is a long network of contacts, people you know, etc. Another benefit is that if you revisit people you worked with early in your career, you'll find that many of them are managers now, and have the power to make hiring decisions (including designing a job around your specific capabilities). It doesn't always work -- I once had a job custom designed for me, and then HR stepped in and killed it (due to interdepartmental politics), but these things often work out quite well. As an Old Guy (TM), never try the cold call, or submitting your resume as the first thing you do. Get in via contacts.

Re:Start your own

[bonehead]

That's a matter of genetics, I guess. I spotted my first gray hairs while I was still in college. (Yes, at the "traditional" age to be in college.)

Re:Start your own

[bonehead]

Also, this fantasy that tech workers make so much more than average is bullshit.

Maybe that's true in Silicon Valley for the "chosen few", but there's a lot of tech jobs all over the country that aren't paying the "big bucks". I do what I do because I love it, I enjoy it, and I actually wake up every morning looking forward to going to work. But truth be told, I'm sure there are talented plumbers in my city who make a shitload more than I do.

Tech work is RAPIDLY becoming commoditized. Too many young punks who "think" they know some stuff and are willing to work for cheap are driving salaries down. In the meantime, guys like me who actually *do* know how to do that stuff get stuck training their dumb asses.

Re:Start your own

[korgitser]

I'd go another route:
Be willing to work for a little more than the going rate.
Focus, yes, on the smaller companies, but shoot straight for senior/teamlead positions. Your track record should cover you there. Tell them, you want to gain a level in your career and that your age should help you there.

Re:Start your own

[cayenne8]

Actually, if he is at this age and point in his life, he should by now, have developed a large network of connections in the IT world.

Years of experience should have also given him years of names and people to contact when needing that next gig.

Once you're out in the work world, the next jobs come from who you know...if you're doing it right.

If nothing else, get with a contracting house...they DO value older experienced folks with heavy resume experience.

Re:Start your own

[camperdave]

Tell them, you want to gain a level in your career and that your age should help you there.

Don't say age. Tell them your experience should help.

Re:Start your own

[dyingtolive]

The problem as I see it becomes that too many of the people who should be passing on their genes aren't, because not having kids enriches one's own life in the aforementioned ways, while too many people who shouldn't be "contributing" to humanity are doing it at breakneck speed.

Re:Start your own

[slim]

That is if either:

  - You're a natural at (interpersonal) networking.
  - or you took on board the importance of (interpersonal) networking when you were young, and made a special effort to do it.

If you put your head down and did a job, instead of schmoozing, you might not be so lucky.

Re:Start your own

[g253]

Look, obviously the young punks willing to work for cheap and able to write are finding better-paying jobs. So many employers are puzzled that they can never find a decent employee for less than it costs to hire and keep a decent employee. It's not rocket science : if nobody with half a brain wants the job you offer, then you're not paying enough.

Bring a rifle.

[Anonymous Coward]

Take the HR weenies hostage, and demand an audience with somebody technical.

Re:Bring a rifle.

[Mitchell314]

Don't forget to say the password 'shiboleet'.

for the grey hair part...

[adminstring]

Get your hair dyed some other natural-looking color, with eyebrows to match. You can always go back to grey once you have the job.

Re:for the grey hair part...

[hedwards]

I suspect the problem is that the application forms that the submitter has to fill out, require certain degrees and get tossed into the trash if those requirements aren't met. And probably by the lowest level HR person at the firm.

One of the things I noticed years back before I gave up on IT was that they wanted very specific requirements to even allow the application to submit. And that was before the most recent economic downturn. It's probably gotten even worse now.

You have to contract / set up a firm

[xtal]

Set up a firm, start networking. If you deliver projects on time and budget then you will soon have more business than you know what to do with. Ultimately this strategy will work out better for you in the long run, but is more challenging to get going.

Generally speaking, if you have real talent, you are a sucker to work for someone else.

Re:You have to contract / set up a firm

[MozeeToby]

In this situation it's going to be all about who you know. You say you have a long history of successes? Contact the people you worked with and worked for. Someone, somewhere, is hiring and at least some of those people will be in position to push your resume at least past the first layer of defense. Lack of a formal degree will see your resume to circular filing cabinet in record time, unless the HR drone has a reason to believe otherwise.

Re:You have to contract / set up a firm

[wickedskaman]

THIS. Don't let pride get in the way of calling folks even from way back when who have been part of your professional life. Don't assume it's a waste of time.

Personal experience

[Anonymous Coward]

My situation is very similar to yours. I haven't been able to get an in-person job at all, just contract work, where I've been moderately successful.

I've had several third interviews for jobs, but they always wind up hiring someone less-qualified but with a degree. I've pretty much given up on the job part, and resigned myself to contract work unless one of my app projects takes off.

How do you know this?

[mrscorpio]

How do you know the people getting the jobs have no experience? I am probably not as old and not as experienced as you, but I was getting beat out for entry-level jobs by people with degrees AND experience, sometimes a ridiculous amount of experience for the position and/or pay. Fact is, there are a LOT of people looking for a job or a better job out there, and lack of a degree is an automatic disqualifier for a lot of positions right now due to the number of applicants hiring managers are seeing that have both the desired experience and degree.

Insufficient Data

[hondo77]

Maybe your resume sucks. Maybe you're asking for too much money. Maybe you smell bad. Maybe you don't know as much as a fresh college grad. It's hard to answer this without knowing more about you. Have you ever gotten feedback from headhunters when they review your resume?

Re:Insufficient Data

[eljefe6a]

This, plus: Take a good, hard look at yourself from the employer's viewpoint. Is your resume 10 pages long, etc? Are you networking? Do you have a good LinkedIn profile? Linkedin is how recruiting is done now. Being self-taught only makes a difference if you let it.

Re: Insufficient Data

[dcam]

This doesn't exactly paint you in a goid light. The architect was right. Welcome to functional style programming.

Go into business for yourself

[roc97007]

Start a business. You'll enjoy that more than working for someone else anyway. In many states you can start an LLC for a pittance.

Barring that, you need to network. HR departments exist (these days) as a shield between hiring managers and the great unwashed masses. One criteria is that you must have [from
Caveat -- I'm an old guy with lots of experience, mostly self-taught, working in a field not studied in college. (That didn't, in fact, exist when I was in college.) Finding a new job is often an adventure because my college credits were a long time ago in a completely different area. In most cases, I've known someone who knew someone, managed to get the manager's ear, maybe over a beer after hours.

Maybe it's not them..

[bsdasym]

..maybe it's you. Speaking as someone with ~20 years real experience and no formal education at all (HS dropout, even), I haven't had any trouble finding a good paying gig (W2 or 1099) since putting the first behind me, let alone getting an interview. So, I say, seek within for the answers. The "young guy" is bringing something to the table you're not, right out of the gate, and it's got nothing to do with his degree or your lack thereof.

Re:What is your point?

[Austerity Empowers]

The idea is that 4 years in school with a stamp of approval at the end of it, is a sort of pre-verification that the candidate is worth talking to. RIght now in technology you can accept every resume with a B.S. in EE or CS, and you would never run out of resumes.

Of course, I must be lying since we have this massive tech labor shortage.

Headhunter's secrets

[DeathGrippe]

As a former headhunter, here is my best advice:

1. Avoid headhunters. All they'll do is attach a commission handicap toward hiring you.

2. Find out where there are places nearby where you'd like to work and are qualified.

3. Prepare a killer resume that describes your accomplishments in the terms of the job you could do for those employers.

4. Find out who the hiring managers are, and what positions, if any, are open.

5. Have three copies of your resume available. Walk in the front door cold, and tell the person at the front desk your name and who you are there to see about the job.

6. If the front desk person asks for a resume, give it to them.

Generally, this will get you in front of the hiring authority. While you're talking with that person, aside from telling them all about the great things you can do, ASK FOR THE JOB! "This sounds great! I can start on Monday, would that be too soon?" etc.

Good luck.

Re:What is your point?

[hjf]

No, you're lying because it's common knowledge that, at the end of the day, what really matters is KNOWLEDGE. So, ditch college, learn everything by hacking and you are bound to get the highest spot in a company. Because everyone in college is a rich spoiled kid.
Slashdot people don't waste their precious time with such nonsense as "grades", "exams" or "degrees". And certainly not "certifications". Those are for idiots with a lot of money in their hands. No sir, follow the example of great hackers, hack a bank and go through their front door proving their security is SHIT and everyone there is a complete IDIOT. The bank owner himself will give you the CEO position from where you will be able to order every desktop in the company converted to Linux and open source their business process.

CONTACTS! I second that.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I am in much the same boat. My branch of the industry went from garage shops to IPOs to conglomerates. The hiring process went from people-in-the-know to armies-of-PHBs-working by the book. The number of potential employers went from hundreds to a handful. The workforce went from top-notch locals to armies of adequate, semi-adequate, or inadequate H1Bs.

I had been a pioneer and well recognized by other actual techies - even those that had gone on into management or entrepreneurship. But after catching a layoff when the conglomerate deemphasized its new acquisition's function, I went from highly-paid pan-expert to 17 months unemployed due to the same HR-is-a-brick-wall for non-commodity heads effect.

I finally ended up contracting at a long-running garage shop in a niche market, a position found through a contact who had just watched them have a project almost fail for lack of a person with my particular skill set.

Meanwhile I'm finishing the degree via "distance learning" through an accredited institution. By the time the contract runs out I hope to have that checkbox checked. (College is a LOT easier when you don't have the draft board trying to send you to Vietnam and you can do the classes online when you're free and alert, rather than at 8 AM when you're a night person.)

Why are you applying through normal channels?

[aXis100]

If you're grey haired, experienced and accomplished, you should also have a friendly network of ex-colleagues and customers who will help you get a job.

Your first job or two you should apply for though normal channels. After you've made some friends in the industry, every other job you should either be getting shortlisted though mates referrals, or headhunted - it's that easy. Employers are screaming out for good employees and the internal referals count heavily compared to unknown randoms.

Forget commoditized

[rsilvergun]

they don't send H1-B applicant's home after their visas expire. So while there's only suppose to be about 60,000 here there's more like 3 times that. And they want to bump the minimum to 300,000. Try to imagine close to 1 million new tech workers hitting the job market in 3 years...