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Ask Slashdot: Getting Hired As a Self-Taught Old Guy?
StonyCreekBare writes "How can an autodidact get past the jobs screening process? I have a long track record of success, despite limited formal education. Despite many accomplishments, published papers, and more, I cannot seem to get past the canned hiring process and actually get before a hiring manager. Traditional hiring processes seem to revolve around the education and degrees one holds, not one's track record and accomplishments. Now as an older tech-worker I seem to encounter a double barrier by being gray-haired as well. All prospective employers seem to see is a gray-haired old guy with no formal degrees. The jobs always seem to go to the younger guys with impressive degrees, despite a total lack of accomplishment. How can an accomplished, if gray-haired, self-educated techie get a foot in the door?"
business :)
Take the HR weenies hostage, and demand an audience with somebody technical.
You start your own business.
There really isn't much you can do, unless you know people.
Get your hair dyed some other natural-looking color, with eyebrows to match. You can always go back to grey once you have the job.
My truck is like a series of tubes.
This is where networking comes in. Cold-calling hiring managers (per se) is partially to weed out people who don't have any "in" to the company, already. That, and maybe die your hair. It sucks, but in a world where everything but your actual work-ethic and capability is secondary to things like youth, height, attractiveness, and diploma, you have to manipulate the game to your favor so you can get your foot in the door.
I also think there tends to be a problem where most people assume that if you're over a certain age and you are not seeking a management position, there must be something wrong with you. After all, if you have put in your years, why would you want to do anything other than manage people, right? . . . Right?
Set up a firm, start networking. If you deliver projects on time and budget then you will soon have more business than you know what to do with. Ultimately this strategy will work out better for you in the long run, but is more challenging to get going.
Generally speaking, if you have real talent, you are a sucker to work for someone else.
..don't panic
If you had done your research on the subject just in the last few days on these very pages, you would know to apply to Google
My situation is very similar to yours. I haven't been able to get an in-person job at all, just contract work, where I've been moderately successful.
I've had several third interviews for jobs, but they always wind up hiring someone less-qualified but with a degree. I've pretty much given up on the job part, and resigned myself to contract work unless one of my app projects takes off.
How do you know the people getting the jobs have no experience? I am probably not as old and not as experienced as you, but I was getting beat out for entry-level jobs by people with degrees AND experience, sometimes a ridiculous amount of experience for the position and/or pay. Fact is, there are a LOT of people looking for a job or a better job out there, and lack of a degree is an automatic disqualifier for a lot of positions right now due to the number of applicants hiring managers are seeing that have both the desired experience and degree.
Most companies are willing to trade years of experience and certifications for specific degrees. Do you have certifications?
Are the "published papers" in the same tech field that you're looking in for a job? You have enough knowledge to write papers on the subject but no one will hire you to work in that field?
Is the job situation where you live that bad? Can you move?
Maybe your resume sucks. Maybe you're asking for too much money. Maybe you smell bad. Maybe you don't know as much as a fresh college grad. It's hard to answer this without knowing more about you. Have you ever gotten feedback from headhunters when they review your resume?
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
Grecian Formula.
#DeleteChrome
Start a business. You'll enjoy that more than working for someone else anyway. In many states you can start an LLC for a pittance.
Barring that, you need to network. HR departments exist (these days) as a shield between hiring managers and the great unwashed masses. One criteria is that you must have [from
Caveat -- I'm an old guy with lots of experience, mostly self-taught, working in a field not studied in college. (That didn't, in fact, exist when I was in college.) Finding a new job is often an adventure because my college credits were a long time ago in a completely different area. In most cases, I've known someone who knew someone, managed to get the manager's ear, maybe over a beer after hours.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
You'd probably have better luck with smaller shops. The kind where the owner will probably meet with you personally if you go in and ask for a job in person. Be prepared to compensate for your lack of formal credentials with examples of your work.
Probably varies from place to place, but around here, previous experience trumps education most of the time. Larger places you might need the degree to get passed the automated keyword hunter, but your references from previous employers and what you can say about what you've worked on are what sell you.
And on that note, with that long track record of success, you should also have a large collection of people who know the kind of work you do and would recommend you to others. Get in touch with them and see if they know of anyone looking for someone with your skillset.
People who can refer you to the company they work for are your absolute best bet. Your chances of getting a job are magnitudes higher when someone inside the company, who knows the role and office culture and the position, is saying "this guy is good, he's exactly what we need".
1) Network
2) Get lucky
Software "engineering" is not a chartered discipline, so your lawyers (multiple!) would appear to have their head(s) wedged.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
As a fellow grayhair who just recently switched jobs - sell what you got. Sell vision, dedication (You won’t be pulled away for screaming babies), experience, understanding of risk, that you've actually already done what they are trying to do (yes - research!). You are now less the doer and more the vizier. Most importantly, sell confidence, without it you're toast. Good luck
CS is not IT
haven't figured this out yet?
1) Start your own contracting firm.
or
1) Make contact through user group meetings, seminars, what have you.
And
2) Become active in any coder events.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If you have done impressive things over many years, you should have contacts who are aware of your abilities. An inside experienced contact at most companies can get a resume of someone they think is valuable in front of hiring managers.
Unfortunately if you don't have a formal education and don't have anyone who can vouch for you it will be very difficult. Put yourself in the position of a hiring manger with dozens of resumes on their desk - they are looking for an efficient way to cull the resumes down to a manageable number and formal qualifications are an easy (and generally reasonable) method.
I have never seen the lack of the degree as an impediment to getting hired. I would say the majority of people I have worked with did not have a CS degree. I seriously doubt that this is why you are not getting hired. I would bet there is another reason.
..maybe it's you. Speaking as someone with ~20 years real experience and no formal education at all (HS dropout, even), I haven't had any trouble finding a good paying gig (W2 or 1099) since putting the first behind me, let alone getting an interview. So, I say, seek within for the answers. The "young guy" is bringing something to the table you're not, right out of the gate, and it's got nothing to do with his degree or your lack thereof.
Set up a firm, start networking. If you deliver projects on time and budget then you will soon have more business than you know what to do with. Ultimately this strategy will work out better for you in the long run, but is more challenging to get going.
Generally speaking, if you have real talent, you are a sucker to work for someone else.
Speaking as someone who has been there - easier said than done.
There are many many folks out there doing the same thing and more will be coming down the pike after that big IBM layoff. And with economy not getting much better, I expect more big layoffs in the near future - meaning a lot of unemployed tech workers looking for a way to make a living. I don't care how good you are, there are only many jobs out there.
Unless you can get your previous employer to hire you (doesn't apply in this case) getting the jobs is very difficult - especially without a track record.
Just networking and handing out business cards will land you nowhere. Folks will be polite and take your card but you'll never hear from them. You have to be a salesman and most techies are not good at that. Selling your skills to a hiring manager is complete different than selling your service to a business operator.
And starting a business takes money and risk. When you're older, risking one's savings or worse going into debt on a business is fool hardy. With 4 out of 5 businesses failing, more than likely he'll end up with nothing.
Yes, it actually is, it's just that nearly everyone doesn't follow or learn the discipline.
Frankly, I have never met some who calls themselves a software engineer that actually understood engineering.
This is there needs to be a PE equivalent for Software, and it's why it should be a crime to call yourself and engineer without said credentials.
Actual engineer is problem not what you think it is/. It involved disciple, understanding, and the ability to sign off on work and take liability.
And not, not all software gigs require a engineering level discipline, but all of them would benefit from it, in the long term.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The OP claimed to be a techie, which probably rules out interest in engineering disciplines anyway.
Government work,
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Buy a few people lunch. Network with people in the company you want to work for. Join their church. Coach their kids baseball team.
Get out of the man cave and mingle.
If you have Microsoft skills, Microsoft does not require degrees for coders in Redmond or for field reps (Windows server, active directory, exchange, sql server, sharepoint, etc) around the world. Management actively fights discrimination including age discrimination. The focus is on how well a person can do the job. http://careers.microsoft.com/
My advice is to be clear about your working experience and your depth of knowledge; honest, so to speak. All "audiophiles", music engineers, and even famous producers that I have known never went to college.
Maybe you are in the wrong location? It sounds like you need to hustle and network.
I repaired computers for 7 years before getting a corporate job. I was the best of the best at it (and still am) yet without SDLC training and actual stories from actual IT workers turned college professors, I'd be doing a very bad job at my current job. I could still easily repair individual computers but the best practices and SDLC rules are everything. So I'm glad I got 2 degrees in IT. No matter how self taught you think you are, you're still not good enough for a corporate job without training.
I'm serious. I know a fellow who is not only 71 years old but a convicted felon who is still on federal supervised release and hasn't work in over ten years who recently got a job with the State of California doing some sort of IT work. The state hires older people. Hiring managers aren't blinded by the cost of older people's health insurance because it doesn't come out of their budget. I suspect it's the same with the Federal government.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
Most of the younger developers want to work with the newer languages, and they want to create rather than maintain. Many companies struggle to find competent COBOL programers, largely for maintenance work. If you are as adept at self-learning as you imply, it should be an easy language to pick up. Check out this article currently posted on /.: http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/06/25/1659247/join-cobols-next-generation
Good luck!
The world of achievement has always belonged to the optimist. -- J. Harold Wilkins
Put your resume online somewhere, make the page google-search-engine friendly (html5, validating, good structure, no fancy tables or javascript).
There are fewer restrictions there, because no page numbers, etc.
People scour the internet to find talent.
Be open to contract work, even 3 months contract, as these can turn into 6, 12, or full time.
My story: 2010 a recruiter found my resume through google search, called me for position, was 3 months contract, got extended 3 more, then 9 more, then full-time, and I've been full-time at the firm 15 months now.
Looking for a job is a full-time job, which includes research.
Also, if a degree is holding you back, get one online (as cheap as possible and as fast as possible). Showing on your resume that you are continuing your education toward a degree can positively influence the resume-filter guy in HR. (Put something like: Attending University XYZ, aiming for a B.S. in Information Systems.) Also, degree does not have to be absolutely related to your career; it's just needed for HR to check the box marked "4-year diploma".
Take any work you can get. You don't have to put it on your resume (there's no database of jobs people have had out there except in govt) if it's not related to your career.
To start your own business and if you don't have assets to protect, you just do work on invoice basis. File a schedule C when you do your taxes (turbotax etc, have that). Do report your income, and pay your taxes. It will be a hassle to find clients, but you can find them. Everybody has crappy computer systems that break. Establish trusted relationships with a few, and before you know it, by word of mouth, they will advertise for you. A word of warning: do not take on exploratory work. Do only what you have done in the past, successfully. It will be easier on everyone, and your reputation will be: gets the job done well and fast. Exploratory work should be considered part of your ongoing education. Any costs incurred there (books, computers, etc) can become a business cost and be deducted from your schedule C income.
I am not a lawyer, a tax professional, etc. Check local laws. etc.
"Piter, too, is dead."
unfortunately, lying on a job application is a criminal offence - tantamount to fraud.
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
You dont need certs... I have dyslexia so i find formal qualifications hard (believe me I've tried), but still manage to do VERY well.
Lie
The idea is that 4 years in school with a stamp of approval at the end of it, is a sort of pre-verification that the candidate is worth talking to. RIght now in technology you can accept every resume with a B.S. in EE or CS, and you would never run out of resumes.
Of course, I must be lying since we have this massive tech labor shortage.
Well, depends on which jobs. Maybe you're using the wrong search terms.
In today's "DevOps" environment, sysadmins are now called "Systems Engineers". And most of the ones in my large company don't have any degrees (unlike the younger developers that we spend most of our time shepherding).
Also tech headhunters are always prowling for experienced "Systems Engineers", so team up with some of them and they'll tell you how to look your best to their clients so you can both get paid.
I recommend against that. Some companies do check, and then they can fire you for cause, and you can kiss severance and unemployment benefits goodbye.
"Piter, too, is dead."
does that include politicians?
Because they won't check that, and fire you immediately if you are caught lying, right?
Wrong. It happens, it's no good for anyone, and usually hits before the first paycheck.
A pack of hair color costs something like $10 at your local store. One problem solved. (If someone has good tips for coloring beard, I'd like to know.)
My guess is that if you want to apply to an organization that uses formal screening process, you're off worse. Networking is the word of the day and if you have a lot of previous work experience, you might already have a professional network. Use it, and sidestep the screening. If not, build your network. Participate in groups, attend conferences, etc. Be active, social, and ambitious, in the right way. Create your own projects, team up, work hard. Target smaller companies that may be more flexible about their hiring practices.
Previous accomplishments are not necessarily a proof of anything, the problem is that everyone can boast about their accomplishments, so nobody pays attention to them if they don't know you, but school grades are official and considered "objective". So, your accomplishments only matter to people who know about them - mainly your network.
Of course, you must be able to develop yourself to the tip of your field. You need to show that you have experience about the field - perhaps write a professional blog, or something, be social. Younger people often have more ambition than us older guys, and you have to rebuild that ambition in yourself, even though I know it can be hard. Be proactive, smart, and develop something bright.
'nuf of pep talk. More booze, sleep.
There is a software engineer PE:
http://ncees.org/about-ncees/news/ncees-introduces-pe-exam-for-software-engineering/
I've hired gray hairs, long hairs, dyed hair and no hairs as programming contractors. Age and experience are not so important to me for these mid-level programming gigs.I care about a few things though - are you up to date on not just coding, but contemporary development methodologies? Have you worked in an Agile team before? Do you have a niche skill that fits with my project (in my case often embedded programming, or Linux device drivers). I'm far more interested in what you've done in that last year before you came to me, so work experience is important. We *will* check if you can program and what approach you take to solving the type of problems we have via multiple interviews on the same day, so if you really can't program, then you will be found out. Also, we place a lot of weight on recommendations, so if you have worked with others on a team and they vouch for you, that will help a lot. Finally, if you are a jerk personality-wise, then we won't want you. Having been burnt more that once by hiring people with serious personality issues it's one of my top things I try to weed out at interview. Finally, a good agency might help you - they take a nasty cut, but push their employees.
I am a software engineer who graduated with a CS degree in 2004. I have almost 9 years of experience. I think experience is essential. I know I am certainly a lot more productive now than I was after I graduated.
I will say however that I see the rationale for hiring new grads over old gray haired guys with lots of experience especially if when they are self taught. I may have been inexperienced when I was first hired, but I was willing to take less pay and I was very easily molded. Not every new grad is intelligent, but that's what interviews are for. A lot of the older people with 30 or 40+ years of experience are pretty set in their ways. They don't like learning new technologies or methodologies. They tend to find ways to do things their own way regardless of what they are told to do.
I am fairly sure that I am going to be like that when I get to be in my 50's and 60's. I can already feel myself being more stubborn about certain things. I feel fortunate that I had a good background on CS theory. I feel like if my mind becomes closed to new ideas I might be able to last for a while on a good foundation, not that I plan to let that happen. I don't know how hard it will be to learn/appreciate new technologies/ideas when I get older. I guess I will find out when I get there.
I don't know how open you are to getting a formal education, but I can't recommend it enough. I have seen a lot of new grads who are pretty inept. I have seen lots of schools and teachers that do a pretty terrible job of teaching subject matter. But when you get the education just right, it can really work miracles to improve your understanding and productivity. I don;t know how old you need to get before it stops being worth it to get a good education, but I suspect it's older than people think. If you actually enjoy learning I would say you should definitely do it. What's the downside? I watch youtube videos of college lectures in my spare time. I find it extremely fascinating, and I am addicted to the sense of power that comes with knowledge.
I don't think being self taught precludes you from getting a formal education. If you don't need a degree you don't even need to spend any money. You can witness all the same lectures as an MIT or Standford student online. I hope that when I am older, I can keep my sense of curiosity and my desire to learn.
The best way to get a job is to be useful. I am not so great with resumes, and I am not a good salesman, but I do know what I am talking about, and I am confident in my abilities. I always do really well in interviews when I can manage to get them. I can't imagine trying to do the things I do if I had tried to teach myself everything.
Are you good? how do you know? Have you self-taught yourself actual experience? Be somebody's apprentice and work on contracts for a bit, you need some experience to go with that knowledge.
You are a non-traditional candidate. You don't fit neatly into the application fields. How do you show that you can benefit the company more than the other candidates?
1) A fellow I know is an older non-traditional candidate. It took longer, but he got a job with a small company. Lesson: find a company with a less mechanical hiring process in which if you don't check box N, they won't submit your application to the hiring managers.
2) Physical job fairs: HR or even hiring managers look at your resume and you here. Structure your resume so your most impressive attributes are at the top.
3) Success in previous jobs seems like a good indicator of ability.
Tune and retune that resume. Give it to friends - but you are the final arbiter. I've had people I know and like give me utterly moronic resume advice. If I hear a consistent theme though, I'll likely address that recurrent theme.
Resume: Imagine you're on the other side of the desk and you've spent your days looking through stacks of resumes. Pretend that's your job - human resources. Their job and bonuses are based on how well they fill positions. So... why on earth would they want to take a chance on you? Have your resume answer that question. If an HR type provides bad candidates to the hiring manager, he'll get blowback.
I've seen the non-traditional candidate succeed but it took longer.
1) Someone else mentioned that SysAdmin is now spelled "Systems Engineer." This is absolute truth - I updated my resume and changed my current title from System Administrator to Systems Engineer, and immediately started getting on average 2-3 calls/emails per week. I think I also put "Sr." in front of it. If in doubt, the determining factor between Jr. and Sr. is "do you ask people questions, or do people ask questions of you?" If your peers are always coming to you for help/advice, you're a Sr. If you're always having to go ask for help from your peers, you're a Jr.
2) Be willing to accept contract / contract-to-hire jobs. Even though I'm currently in a full-time position, it seems the contract / CTH gig is by far the easiest way in the door at a couple companies. And while the job market is fairly tight with a lot of applicants, there are a lot of people who have NO CLUE applying for (and getting) these jobs. If you really know your stuff and can prove yourself, you can go from contract to full-time pretty easily.
3) Network. It's a buzz-word, I know, but get out, get to know people, do favors for people, etc. The more people you know, the easier it is to get in the door. It sucks, but it's the truth. Every job I've held, I've gotten because of people I know. I had one offer once that came as a result of a resume posted to Monster, which I ended up not taking (that one was Amazon), but the jobs I've actually held were due to references from people I knew.
Good luck.
As a former headhunter, here is my best advice:
1. Avoid headhunters. All they'll do is attach a commission handicap toward hiring you.
2. Find out where there are places nearby where you'd like to work and are qualified.
3. Prepare a killer resume that describes your accomplishments in the terms of the job you could do for those employers.
4. Find out who the hiring managers are, and what positions, if any, are open.
5. Have three copies of your resume available. Walk in the front door cold, and tell the person at the front desk your name and who you are there to see about the job.
6. If the front desk person asks for a resume, give it to them.
Generally, this will get you in front of the hiring authority. While you're talking with that person, aside from telling them all about the great things you can do, ASK FOR THE JOB! "This sounds great! I can start on Monday, would that be too soon?" etc.
Good luck.
Not everybody is in a position to move hundreds of miles for a job for one reason or another, and someone may be stuck in an area where all gatekeepers are incompetent.
"The jobs always seem to go to the younger guys with impressive degrees" Correct.
I'm an autodidact as well, and had the same problems. Now that I'm in my late 30s, I have decided to get a degree. In 8 months from now I will have an MS in Network Management. It took me 3 years to get the BS. I hate to say it, but the only way to be better than someone with a degree is to become someone with a degree and experience.
I've learnt that it's definitely worth it to earn a degree, and because I already know 80% of the course material, it is easy as hell to get it.
Yes, politicians are tantamount to fraud.
Kid-proof tablet..
I was in the exact same position a few years ago. I was 37, balding, and going grey fast with 3 years of a computer science degree from the early 90s. I know what I did was rare, and it sure as hell wasn't easy, but I went back and got a degree in finance. It wasn't my original intent, but it's where I ended up. I was hired by a tier 1 mobile carrier as a project manager in January, and I graduated this May Cum Laude. The reason I was hired was my 20 years of experience in IT. The degree got me in the door. Give yourself some credit. Being old(er) is a good thing when it compares to a lot of kids coming out today. I know...easier said than done.
I've never heard of a sysadmin being called a "Systems Engineer", "Systems Engineers" are an entirely different thing than a sysadmin, which were I work are the guys that keep our computers and networks going. A weird thing at my workplace is that what were formerly called secretaries are now "Admins".
Only I can judge you.
Unlike many other disciplines, the computer industry allows individuals to create programs, frameworks, toolkits, technical documentation, etc. relatively easy. You don't need permission from some bureaucratic agency
Unless, of course, you work in video games. Then you need permission from the console maker.
At what age did you notice it staring to become a problem?
Seriously. Write some code, publish it on Github. Spin up a single serving web page, does one interesting thing as soon as you arrive. Remember, everyone else with resumes could be pretending, you're actually doing stuff.
For work experience, sign up on freelancing sites like odesk. Take jobs just to do them. Nobody knows how old you are, there. Even if all you can do is sysadmin -- well, admin some cloud services!
If "autodidact" seems highfalutin' to you, your education is sorely lacking.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
No, you're lying because it's common knowledge that, at the end of the day, what really matters is KNOWLEDGE. So, ditch college, learn everything by hacking and you are bound to get the highest spot in a company. Because everyone in college is a rich spoiled kid.
Slashdot people don't waste their precious time with such nonsense as "grades", "exams" or "degrees". And certainly not "certifications". Those are for idiots with a lot of money in their hands. No sir, follow the example of great hackers, hack a bank and go through their front door proving their security is SHIT and everyone there is a complete IDIOT. The bank owner himself will give you the CEO position from where you will be able to order every desktop in the company converted to Linux and open source their business process.
Or maybe your curriculum vitae isn't is impressive as you think it is.
Thankfully in the spanish-speaking world the word Ingeniero (engineer) means a completely different thing. It's a degree, just like Doctor. You can't just call yourself an engineer, nor a company can name you a "doctor". Same thing with "architect".
Best you can call yourself if you don't have a real university degree is a "technician".
At least in the US, I've found that only a small minority of companies consider education a real requirement. Most listings require "Bachelor's / Master's degree or equivalent experience." I'm over 50 and still on an active technical track. My education is a GED. I don't have trouble getting in the door. My resume doesn't mention education; if an application asks for it I tell them. If I think it might be an issue because the listing says "degree required" and doesn't mention "or equivalent experience" I'll raise it up front and just ask if my thirty years of professional experience (I only keep the last 15 or so on my resume usually) counts for more than whether / if I have a degree. The companies that do consider education a requirement for someone with impressive accomplishments and skills are probably not places you'd want to work for. Headhunters and corporate recruiters can't do much more than match keywords usually, so if your skill set is up to date and you can leverage your experience by being a really good generalist I think it goes a long way. Europe and Asia are a different ballgame altogether, but in the US experience still counts for far more than anything else, especially in technology. Just look for the companies that want people who can do things and show them that's who you are...
Lie, lie, lie. No one checks references. And even if you 1 out of 10 do check, you'll end up getting rejected because they checked only from that one place.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
No, you're lying because there is no labor shortage. It's simple finger math, for every technical work visa granted, some voter that was once a working tax payer now has to stand aside. As for the argument of, "making the right choice?" Why is this not a problem in Germany? As for the person coming here to work, they're good people; but why can't they find work in their country for the skill set they trained for? If their skill set is not needed there, what makes them think here is any different?
I am in much the same boat. My branch of the industry went from garage shops to IPOs to conglomerates. The hiring process went from people-in-the-know to armies-of-PHBs-working by the book. The number of potential employers went from hundreds to a handful. The workforce went from top-notch locals to armies of adequate, semi-adequate, or inadequate H1Bs.
I had been a pioneer and well recognized by other actual techies - even those that had gone on into management or entrepreneurship. But after catching a layoff when the conglomerate deemphasized its new acquisition's function, I went from highly-paid pan-expert to 17 months unemployed due to the same HR-is-a-brick-wall for non-commodity heads effect.
I finally ended up contracting at a long-running garage shop in a niche market, a position found through a contact who had just watched them have a project almost fail for lack of a person with my particular skill set.
Meanwhile I'm finishing the degree via "distance learning" through an accredited institution. By the time the contract runs out I hope to have that checkbox checked. (College is a LOT easier when you don't have the draft board trying to send you to Vietnam and you can do the classes online when you're free and alert, rather than at 8 AM when you're a night person.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I hire staff on contract once in a while. As a small business I can not afford to stuff up the hire. So I make sure I get to know the applicant and there is no way I leave that in the hands of some "Expert"
Large cooperates are like government. Riddled by policy and ass covering. go for small businesses where you get to talk to the owner and sell yourself.
Get a portfolio together. Make some startup apps/concepts. Even if htey don't sell if you can point to your creation and go "this was me" it helps tremendously.
Ask for a programming exercise in the interview. Id hire you if you knew what you were doing.
I work with a 62 year old sw engineer that just got into MVC , jquery and etc last year. He also does bodybuilding 5 days a week. Dont give up
Indie games are a popular thing at least.
On my CV I simply put all the things I know, past work experience, and relevant information. I cram it into two pages. I supply no education experience on the CV.
When I get calls, and they ask about education, I simply say (jokingly) "If I HAD gone to university for computer sciences after high school, none of what I learned then would be any use now. I've thought about going back to school to get a degree to prove I can work the job, but I've been too busy actually working the job to spare the time."
Most of the places I'd like to work understand this and I get passed on to the director of the department.
There was only one time where I felt the lack of formal education lost me the job, but in that particular case, I didn't care. After meeting the staff during the interview, I was hoping they wouldn't call me.
My studio - www.graylands.ca
If you're grey haired, experienced and accomplished, you should also have a friendly network of ex-colleagues and customers who will help you get a job.
Your first job or two you should apply for though normal channels. After you've made some friends in the industry, every other job you should either be getting shortlisted though mates referrals, or headhunted - it's that easy. Employers are screaming out for good employees and the internal referals count heavily compared to unknown randoms.
If you lie in an interview, you know you are working for a fool who hires liars. Who knows who lied even more than you to work there?
You won't find out until there' s real work to be done well and nobody has any idea how to do it.
Find a large tech company that hires contractors. Get hired as a contractor. Work your ass off and show them you know more than any of the youngsters. Get them to convert you to full time real employee.
Worked for me. Now I get to play with cool toys from the future.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
Reframe your "Sales Collateral", aka resume, social network presence, blogs, etc. to demonstrate you can solve THEIR problems. Use your grey hair for leverage, rather than be discouraged by it.
-- Jimtown Kelly
Often a company is looking for some specific skills or experience and this is often described in the job listing or can be inferred from the product or services the company provides.
If the job listing mentions Linux, you better have lots of stuff on your resume about Linux. If the company makes network products you better have lots of stuff indicating networking knowledge.
When you come into the interview you should review these topics, if you need to learn a new programming language or subject matter, do it, and even it was obvious you just learned it for the job it would reflect very well that you have the aptitude to learn the skills you need to contribute.
Assuming you actually have an interest in what the company does, demonstrate that, learn about their products before you come into the interview. Demonstrate your curiosity by asking questions about things you don't understand about the products.
I'm surprised. First guess is that you've misdiagnosed it being about formal education.
You might have something horribly wrong on the resume. Maybe have a friend look at it and figure out why no one should ever hire that awful person. Then remove the part about how you made the Nazi Party's website 100x faster, or whatever it is. ;-)
Other idea is that people are seeing it and thinking "this guy wants a real job, not our job; there's no way we can afford him." You have to address that in the cover letter, hopefully without throwing away too much money. Think about whom you're approaching. They shouldn't all necessarily get the same spiel.
Good luck, buddy.
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That's not really weird when you consider that official title of secretary has been "administrative assistant" for quite a while.
There's a whole lot more of secretaries then IT admins in most companies.
You have not captured the Zen of the situation. Your fate is to hire and not to be hired. Simply come out with a brilliant and easy to implement plan and get others to do the work. Walking without leaving a trace on the rice paper is not required.
I had to teach myself cause I couldn't find a course on being and old guy.
they don't send H1-B applicant's home after their visas expire. So while there's only suppose to be about 60,000 here there's more like 3 times that. And they want to bump the minimum to 300,000. Try to imagine close to 1 million new tech workers hitting the job market in 3 years...
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Having worked my way up from a Wafer Probe Operator (Semiconductor Industry) to just under a Staff Scientist without a degree I can agree it is getting harder these days. For the most part, as a programmer, not having a degree hasn't held me back too much but there are certain cultures where if you don't have your piece of paper they won't even talk to you. When I was first promoted to be an Engineer my boss said "We all have 98.6 degrees, show me what you can do". I wonder what use a degree I would have received in 1979 would be today. Other than a check on a form.
I understand your frustration, but I also understand why you're getting stonewalled. I'm also getting into the grey-haired part of life myself, so I am somewhat sympathetic, too.
That being said, here are some blunt observations:
1. The problem with autodidactism is that it is always self-proclaimed (read: subjective). The person screening you is, to some degree, accountable for whether or not you end up sucking. So part of your challenge is that these hiring managers are just playing the C.Y.A. game, and without a degree to "prove" you're educated the ONLY thing you can bring to the table is what's listed on your resume. Which brings me to #2...
2. In my opinion (and first-hand experience), the resume has long since ceased to be reliable as a measure of a person's accomplishments. These days, the overwhelming majority of candidates I interview cannot *possibly* have accomplished what they allege on their resumes - it's frustratingly obvious within minutes of beginning the interview. The unfortunate reality is that accomplishments listed on resumes are seldom the whole truth (e.g. there's an obviously huge - and unethical - difference between the resume CLAIM "Designed and developed the fixed-priority pre-emptive task scheduling subsystem for an embedded microprocessor" and the REALITY "Well, um... I was responsible for running the automated script that tested the algorithm the developers wrote. What? No, I didn't actually write the script itself, either. But I was on the team, I swear!" Great, thanks for wasting my time.)
3. Because of #1 and #2, the proving ground can only be the actual interview itself. Heck, even with references, many companies "forbid" current employees from doing anything other than confirming whether or not the candidate was employed during the stated timeframe.
But you're stuck between a rock and a hard place because the only way to *get* to the interview, as you've noticed, is to get past the hiring manager and screeners. And, well... they're gonna play C.Y.A. and immediately filter out candidates who don't have the formal education AND the impressive resume.
So what to do? Well, I gave you some blunt observations, now here's some blunt advice:
1. Get some formal education. (read: "Learn to play the game.")
Seriously. I don't mean you need to enroll in a 4-year university and live the dorm life :) All this time you've spent autodidacting, and yet you never put 2+2 together and realized that the lack of SOMETHING formal could be a long-term detriment?
Some people will argue that a degree is "just a piece of paper." Well, so is a resume. But the degree can be verified, and demonstrates that (a) you are able to make and meet a commitment, and (b) that what you know is at least somewhat predictable/reliable (i.e. you followed a curriculum, which was reviewed by an education board, approved, accredited instructors were hired, etc.). THAT is the value of a degree. The resume of an autodidact, however impressive, doesn't have that value. (But just to be clear: no, a degree itself doesn't mean you don't suck. See #3 above.)
Other people will argue the (rising) cost of education. Bullsh!t. I've taken numerous college and university courses over the span of a 15-year career, and NOT ONCE did I pay for it myself. Did you ever check your former employers' continuing education reimbursement policies? And even if I'd had to pay for my coursework out of pocket, there are plenty of financial aid packages and scholarship opportunities available to those who have the motivation to look.
IMO the hard truth is this: not having ANY formal education whatsoever is a choice that you make, a chance that you take. Sometimes it works out, often it doesn't. Want to make your hassles non-existent? Then go get a certificate, or an associate degree, or SOMETHING. That'll get you past the hiring managers and screeners, and then you'll have your chance to impress the interviewers.
If you're looking for a quick fix, though
Read "How to win friends and influence people". The book is older than you and has been studied by many great men. This is a "manual" on human interaction, something us "geeks" can use, to present ourselves in the best light. Are you applying for suitable "high level" jobs? If you are a certified "grey beard", but are applying for entry level positions, then forget it. By definition you are the wrong person. You need to put yourself in the position of the hiring manager and see how your 6-digit salary will actually save them money. Second, most of my auto-didactic friends are consultants who have found a niche: cobol, mainframes, pdp-11/vax, as-400, etc. All based on resume, reputation (i.e. recommendations), and word-of-mouth. Old computing niches aren't sexy, but they are desperately needed and pay the bills. Once you get your first gig, if you present yourself well (see book above), then others follow. I don't know your niche ... but there are hundreds of business out there that are willing to pay thousands of dollars for you to fix their problem.
Not always correct, but if you have no experience at all, then yes.
A degree is useful for getting into entry level jobs. After that, it is mostly networking that does the job for you. I know a few people who don't even have a degree that have senior technical positions. Experience trumps education every time, unless you are talking about academia or research. No one wants a Ph.D. for mere development work. Too expensive. Even a Master's Degree is something of overkill except maybe for certain architect or management roles.
Ageism may play a role, but his real problem is just getting his foot in the door. If all else fails, he may want to get a job where he can transfer himself into an IT role. A non-profit may need help for peanuts in pay, or perhaps a public school system needs a tech. It may not completely fill his needs for salary, but it gives him something very valuable: in-field experience.
Really what he needs is a line item on his resume that says he was a coder/sysadmin/IT person for a couple of years. After that, he can probably secure a contractor gig or two. Once he has that, he's in the business.
At this point, however, I hope he loves this work, because IT is no longer a get-rich quick scheme.
I'm sure this will get blasted...but it's true.
Yes there are some companies out there who don't care about certs, but in order to get past most HR departments, you need something.
Certs will do it.
Especially, Cisco, Red Hat and security focused certs.
After that, the technical interview is all on you.
Those are for idiots with a lot of money in their hands.
Not necessarily, but many of the people going to college now really shouldn't need to; it's just a waste of money, time, and effort in many cases. The 'everyone has to go to college' mentality is completely ridiculous.
You probably need to take a serious look at your resume. Even as an 'old guy' with plenty of great experience you need to have a two page resume. Update to a modern template and spend some time honing the message to target the job you want. Hiring managers understand that you have more under your belt than could fit on your resume so don't sweat what you can't fit.
Focus on results. Use the space wisely. Don't get disappointed when you don't get an interview for a job that emphatically states the need for a degree. If their culture does not allow for someone in your shoes you probably wouldn't be happy there anyway. There are senior level technical jobs that will accept experience in lieu of a degree. Look for them.
Also, don't be afraid of selling yourself. Don't lie, never lie. But do use compelling language to indicate that you get the job done right and under budget.
Finally, create a cover letter specifically for every application, especially if the jobs sounds like one you really want. Forget about the resume in the cover letter. Use 2-3 paragraphs to call attention to the specific experience and results that apply directly to the job. Come off as confident but not cocky. Remember, you are the experienced professional.
As someone who sits in a lot of interviews and makes hiring recommendations, I find polished, personal side projects very compelling. If you have a recent tech project that you started on your own, for your own benefit or amusement, that demonstrates multiple technical proficiencies, then I start paying closer attention. When it's just your project, I know that you aren't trying to take credit for someone else's work, and anything cool or impressive in the project proves your initiative and value.
No, really. Be honest with yourself about why you don't have a degree. An impressive degree is an accomplishment that takes hard work, commitment, and time. Don't let your pride fool you into thinking you have nothing to learn. Don't let your wallet fool you into thinking you can't afford it. And most of all, don't let your lack of a degree be an excuse.
Get your resume together and create a LinkedIn account. Post the relevant details and start sending out connection invitations to the people you know in the industry. Emphasize your skills over education. Trust me, you'll have 100 connections in no time. Then the recruiters will start to find you. They troll through LinkedIn all the time looking for keyword skill matches. Sure, some of them are bottom feeders but others can help you.
Short answer is to use your networking skills. Having a degree is great for getting your foot in the door but eventually you've got to be able to get shit done. When you get shit done, people notice. When people notice, you begin to build a reputation. Once you build a reputation, you don't call them...they call you.
Equally important are your interviewing skills. Managers are typically "Type A" personalities and are drawn to people like them. If you're not a Type A then learn how to pretend you are one in a interview. Don't be afraid to toot your own horn. Be confident and impress them with your skills. You don't have to kiss anyone's ass but leave them with the impression that you're a cool guy and someone they would want to work with. It goes a long way.
The easiest way is to have someone you've worked with put in a word for you, but seriously, use a job site. I haven't touched Dice in 5 years, and I *still* get emails from recruiters via that site every damn week (I can't even figure out how to pull my resume from it). HOWEVER, make damn sure you can ace the tech screen and interview. Nothing is more pathetic than a middle-aged developer who doesn't know squat in a face-to-face; and for God's sake show enthusiasm and confidence. If that means going on a ton of failed interviews to get practice (and see what kind of questions you'll get - and they tend to get repetitive after a while), do it.
You have hit the nail on the head. They are looking for someone with a degree or some other qualification. Go back to school, get a degree. This will get you past 98% of the useless HR filtering.
I recently gained some insight into the hiring practices where I work. They scan resumes for key words. "Ohhh.. no BSc... DELETED!"
You would be amazed at the number of candidates I have to sift through with degrees from unaccredited universities and colleges simply because HR saw those three magic letters that met the criteria to be forwarded to the next stage of the process.
If you think for a second that this is going to get better, you're dead wrong. Look at LinkedIn[1]. You can specify what level of education your ads are targeted for. Only want post-grads to see an advertisement on Facebook? Easy.
If you want to play this game, you need to work within their rules or find weaknesses in their rules (such as unaccredited universities). (Incidentally, this is now something that I check for - have I at least *heard* of their university?)
If you really have a wealth of experience, it will be trivial for you to challenge a bunch of courses at your local university. Screw paying full tuition. Show up, pay a quarter of the cost, write the exams, get the grade, eventually get the degree. This can be done part time so that you can keep whatever job you currently have.
If you start taking classes as a mature student, you will understand classroom politics and processes *FAR* better than someone who arrived fresh out of high school. Do what I did when I went back after a decade for my masters. Sit in the front row. Ask questions. Shape the class to YOUR needs - hell, you're the one paying for it, not mom and dad. Get your money's worth.
In the end this is your career and your education. You might find some insight on the Internet, but it's generally a horrible place to go for advice. Nobody online will ever care about your circumstances as much as you do. Put a plan together. Ask for feedback from your peers and mentors. Make a decision. Act on it.
Good luck.
[1] http://www.linkedin.com/company/linkedin/linkedin-talent-finder-3437/product
I've found that professional societies are very useful for making contacts, bypassing HR.
I went to my local Linux UG a few times and they were always trading jobs.
The professional society depends on your skill set. You go there and start talking tech.
One of the broadest organizations would be IEEE. What's another one?
I don't know. Maybe other people have different experiences.
Have other people used professional societies to network and get jobs?
I have a fantastic job at a Silicon Valley company; never finished college. And we're hiring like mad. Feel free to send me a resume (I'm a hiring manager, but I also know all the other hiring managers :) ).
Why not lie about a degree? Seems that everybody and their mama lies about everything, including the President and the Congress. If your are better than a degree holder, then you should have no remorse and think of it as a favor to the HR person that will grant your interview.
No, you're lying because it's common knowledge that, at the end of the day, what really matters is KNOWLEDGE. So, ditch college, learn everything by hacking and you are bound to get the highest spot in a company. Because everyone in college is a rich spoiled kid. Slashdot people don't waste their precious time with such nonsense as "grades", "exams" or "degrees". And certainly not "certifications". Those are for idiots with a lot of money in their hands. No sir, follow the example of great hackers, hack a bank and go through their front door proving their security is SHIT and everyone there is a complete IDIOT. The bank owner himself will give you the CEO position from where you will be able to order every desktop in the company converted to Linux and open source their business process.
I didn't realize that this was sarcasm until I was 3/4 of the way through this, and then looked up to see the "Funny" moderation. Perhaps it's supposed to be both truth and humor?
Sig: I stole this sig.
Emphasize stability if you can, this can make age a plus. Not that age
guarantees stability or youth means not responsible but you are more
likely to be considered in a place looking for stability.
County government,especially smaller counties. They typically run on shoestrings but they
can really appreciate someone who can keep systems running well. Likewise midsize
towns and cities.
If you have some oddball skills, that can be a plus. In fact if you know INGRES, are willing
to live in Seattle and are stable: Drop me a line!
Medical computing often wants someone a little older. Banking will often hire someone older.
Midsized organizations 100-500 can be an especially rich vein, places that have been around
awhile so gray hair isn't unusual and small enough not to automate the initial job search. They
also often have enough work to keep a small team busy.
Surprisingly, these can be research departments at
Universities (yes, they sometimes happily hire people without degrees. Who
better knows a degrees worth for day to day computing? Arguing with the person
with an MS who wants to convert everything to Python is not fun.).
I think it a fair bet there are security companies watching the news
that are going to be more accepting of someone older than they were
a month ago.
Nope, not a crime at all. Though if you get caught you will get fired and won't be colleccting unemployment
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
I'd suggest getting one of the bigger certifications, like a CCNA. My CCNA is lapsed, and has been for a decade now, but I put "former CCNA" on my resume, and it seems to trigger whatever resume-scanning apps the larger corporations are using. I've done IT for some small shops, where it was a matter of knowing someone who knew someone, and some larger shops, where it's a matter of the software triggering on "CCNA" and handing it off to a live person. And once the recruiter comes calling with phone and in-person interview opportunities, it's what you know, not how formal a setting you learned it in.
--
www.nitemarecafe.com
Dear smart, grumpy engineers of Slashdot who live elsewhere in the US: here in Silicon Valley it's hard to hire good people.
I am very much trying to hire excellent engineers with experience in search infrastructure/Lucene, recommendation systems, as well as great mobile app developers with experience developing top-tier iOS or Android apps. I will pay well for good talent, offer fair benefits and excellent option package in an early stage startup founded by a guy who has built several successful businesses, including a multi-hundred million dollar company backed by top tier venture firms.
If you can prove to me that you are smart and capable and have relevant experience, I don't care if you have a degree from a top college or not (a degree will affect my baseline expectations, but if you seem smart and competent, I'll give you the opportunity for a phone call to show me how good you are).
If you are a Slashdot regular, that is worth bonus points too (the fewer digits in your UID, the better).
Seriously. If you meet any of the parameters above and think you are a great programmer and would like to come out to the Palo Alto area and work with other top tier people building a product that pushes boundaries in the social space and helps people get more out of their mobile devices, send a resume and cover letter to resumes@delvv.com.
It's true. I have a BS in COSC, from an accredited university, we learned "Hello World" and both Bubble Sort AND Selection sort in three different languages! C/C++ Java and Cobal. Wait, is that four? I'm not sure...
Anyway, we also learned a few SQL commands from the blackboard, but it was open-book tests all the time so I'd need the book to tell them to you. But hey, open-book is just like real life right? How could you NOT appreciate college, it makes you super-smart!
Without some form of visible results people have nothing to trust but your word, while formal qualifications are there to state that you have somebody else's word to vouch for you. That means without formal qualifications you have to find another way to inspire trust.
That may mean working for people that trust you for other reasons or working for charity so that other people will see that you can do what you say you can and will give you a reference. Another is to start your own thing, get people to notice it, and build up a reputation.
Oh, PS. You "self-taught" morons might think you're so much better because you've contributed to open source, put your free time into researching various libraries frameworks and APIs, but in College, we "learned how to learn". Obviously you people haven't learned how to learn cause you never went to college; the only place you can do that. I learned that in college so it must be true and exclusive to college.
What's that? You maintain an open-source project and help maintain the BSD/Linux kernels and support IT professionals (like me) on online support forums for free? Think that makes you special? HAHA! You don't even have a degree!
That way our species will self-select the thoughtless!
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Have you considered applying to Google? For technical positions nobody looks at your degrees. Having "papers and accomplishments" should get you past the HR people and get you started with the real process. If you show you're good during three phone screens and five onsite interviews, you're in. There are no brain-teasers or tech trivia questions - despite whatever you may hear from uninformed bloggers who don't know what they're talking about. It doesn't depend on having rapport with a "hiring manager" - there's no such thing. The process is extremely fair. It's only about you and your abilities.
Don't want to work for Google? Seriously? I call sour grapes. It's an awesome place to work.
Source: I work at Google. I participate in the interview process, as does everyone else. The workplace and benefits are fucking awesome. No, I'm not 20, I'm in my mid thirties. No, I don't "live in the office", I work for 8 hours and go home to my wife and my hobbies. Yes, my career is advancing pretty well even under that conditions.
You can do that in Malta, and it's free to boot if you're from the EU..
You really should get some qualifications. An alternative is to do a diploma course if you wish to do something with less effort, or start off with the diploma course and then move to the University Course.
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Simple .... you lie. You don't lie about your accomplishments or your capabilities but you exaggerate the details.
slashdot has one thing going for it... full of egos desperate to prove something, which means that there is plenty of qualified intellect spewing advice that would otherwise cost thousands
what brings it down... the good advice is mixed up with a huge load of shit that makes finding the good advice almost a pointless exercise... almost
Everyone is so terrified of a discrimination lawsuit that generally, you're never going to get a call telling you that you did not get the job let alone any feedback whatsoever from the interviewer.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
I would look at small businesses, school districts, city government offices, etc. They won't pay as much, but city government IT jobs can be stable and long-term.
In the business area I work, experience trumps education. We are not even looking at education history when browsing CVs. But it is a work requiring a lot of dedication, long hours and a lot of stress and I have serious doubts that anybody over 50 or so is getting hired on 'grunt' level (it will be different in upper management). Obviously, it is not allowed to discriminate based on age - but lack of degree might give a proper _excuse_ to reject a candidate.
So, real problem is probably that "jobs always seem to go to the *younger* guys with impressive degrees".
As other people suggested, start own small business, start selling your skills as a company, not as a worker - at this point age doesn't matter anymore.
This is a problem in Germany.
But, very slowly, an understanding is sweeping in that: structured problem solving and independent learning skills are more important/versatile than knowing "Product A" by heart.
And that's exactly what Western Universities teach you, in contrast to Asia (you know, the Outsourcer Nation).
Now barring that generalization, it's the person, not the culture she comes from that matters.
Unfortunately they get really pissy over the degrees. Two masters degrees (Math and CS) and they still call me undereducated because I don't have a doctorate. Whatever.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
The "tech labor shortage" isn't for EE or CS, rather it is for IT in particular. Many people foolishly go into school thinking they're going to find a good job designing computer components and/or writing software, but the vast majority of businesses don't need that sort of thing. What they actually need is implementation, i.e. not how does the technology work, rather how it applies to business and economics. In my experience talking to most EE/CS majors, they have little grasp of either of those (just the mere fact that many of them are disgusted by the idea that economics is a science tells a lot about why they aren't needed.)
If you want a good tech job, don't necessarily mess with electrical engineering, look more towards something like enterprise resource planning or software defined networking/datacenters. THAT is where the jobs are.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Perhaps it's supposed to be both truth and humor?
Truth and humor are sometimes the same.
"The Universe is a practical joke perpetrated by the general and at the expense of the particular."
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
is that you? http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/sid/
I'm in a similar boat. The crux of the problem, I believe, is that prospective employers aren't as concerned with what you have done as with what you will do. Toward that end I would suggest you generate new creative output. Post tutorials, engage in fora and such; show that you are still active and committed to productive engagement.
Yes, you can learn everything you learn in college without going to college. It's not strictly necessary. But it helps. I get tired of hearing that my degree was a big fat waste of time when I could've just learned stuff by reading it online. The reality is that if you go a a decent school, you *will* learn a lot. And that degree does mean something. It means that compared to some other guy without one, you're more likely to know what you're talking about.
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
I'm 54 and haven't gotten a job without knowing someone at the company or being recommended by a friend for over 20 years, that's 5 jobs before my most recent one. My last search started down the monster.com road, even interviewed several times. Then went to one interview at a company where the VP was someone I used to work with and several people I know worked at, and had a job created specifically for my skill set. Best job I've ever had...and the highest paying.
Don't stop using traditional methods, but if you are any good your past associates are your best bet to getting you a job. They can get your resume to the person hiring.
If you still can't get a job, maybe you just aren't that good. Or your skills are too outdated. Figure out which one is the problem and fix it instead of whining.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
The autists here think the world is completely orthogonal, cause-reaction. They think because you *say* you know a lot, then someone will hire you. This is not how it works in real life. HR managers care about degrees and certificates because they are a proof that you know at least *something* of what you say you know. Put yourself in the place of the HR manager looking for a new IT employee for a factory. IT is a tiny fraction of what goes on in that place, so the manager can't be bothered to run funny mind puzzles, quizzes and tests on every new applicant, like google does. Because the HR manager is not an IT person. He has to hire *all sorts of people*: engineers, technicians, workers, truck drivers, cleaning staff... sometimes you have to trust what a piece of paper says. You can't thoroughly check every candidate.
The other part is: social. I knew a LOT of shit about computers, and as far as I was concerned, everyone else was an idiot. CCNA courses changed my mind... A LOT. I met several people, VERY good, who really know their shit. Not in the training staff, but sitting next to me. I landed my first job by talking to the people next to me. There's always a friend of a friend who's looking for what you're selling. Social connections are really important. Even more than degrees, and much more than what you claim to know.
But people learning stuff on Coursera might know a lot, but they don't know anyone. And they don't know about "real life experience". Books can teach you a lot, but they only teach theory. Anecdotes and experience are invaluable, and those aren't on the course. Those you learn by raising your hand and asking, or by talking to the professor after class.
So you're stuck handing out resumes and hoping for the best.
I am a firm believer in traditional education. I also believe in *forcing* people to learn even the things they don't like. I fully agree with the basic education curriculum: chemistry and math next to language and philosophy. You will never know what you like if you don't try it. Grades are a matter of discussion and I don't completely agree with grades. I don't believe an "average" is a good indicator of anything. Someone can excel at math and suck at literature, and that's FINE. But when trying to get into engineering school, that bad grade in literature pulling your average down, is really dumb, because literature is irrelevant for engineering.
But it's better than nothing: if we didn't grade people, they wouldn't have a reason to even try. But they shouldn't be pushed to get the BEST GRADES in everything, because someone who just doesn't like literature will get frustrated with school because of it. Literature will consume so much of his time, he will start sucking at math too. As with everything in life: there should be a balance.
And for the autistic types out there: No system is perfect. DEAL WITH IT.
Yeah, be sure to watch your balance, that's an awfully tall stool you are claiming as a throne, and its a long way to fall should you slip.
FWIW, lack of formal school does not=lack of education. I am now 78, have a G.E.D. and have been retired for a decade plus, but my phone still rings occasionally with work. In a sense, its a good feeling.
Why? If you are so highly educated, go sit, cold, for the C.E.T. exam and pass it at the journeyman level. I am one, and could probably locate something in the $70k/year range within a week if I wanted to actually go back to work. Fortunately for me, I have too many hobbies to be managed, that leave no time for work.
How did I get there? Easy, my early schooling taught me 2 things. One being able to read at 450-500 per because I was taught phonics back then, and two, that learning things was great fun.
One thing that I have also noticed, a large percentage of those people with a sheepskin on the wall, are folks who then quit learning because they knew it all. Which are you?
Cheers, Gene
I'm very much in the same boat as you are, maybe even slightly worse off. I have a couple of degrees (architectual design and drafting and an associates in psychology), but I never even took a computer class in college. I stumbled into a job as technical support at a failing ISP, and as people around me kept getting canned, I assended the list of positions mostly by being the last man standing, until I was the systems administrator. Eventually I found a major flaw in the billing and provisions process, which had over 1100 cancelled accounts still active, and that turned the comany around from running at a $20,000 loss each month to making a profit. While I shifted into programming, which I liked a lot better and have stay in that field since, I don't have any certifications, publications, or formal education in the IT industry.
While getting the first few jobs were tough, I've found that most companies will take experience over having a degree anyday, and twice on Tuesdays. Also having been on the hiring end of thing half of the time, I will always take experience over any degree, regardless of how prestigious (Okay, maybe not over an MIT degree. lol) I've had too many newly hired employees with their shinny new computer science degree, and I've got to hold their hand for the first 6 months because they know little of what is current practices, so much as they know what is "suppose to be the proper method". The trouble with schooling is that a technology comes out and gains some traction, it must then be choosen and learned by a professor. He must then write a syllabus before the school can even offer it as a course, which is then at the mercy of school quarters. By the time a student signs up, takes the class, and finishes - it's technology that is 1 -2 years old, which in todays world is just about 1 - 2 years too late. 8-)
Personally I haven't had any issues with education being a factor for coming up on a decade. My question to you would be where and how are you applying for jobs? These days I don't even waste my time looking for a job, as most jobs that are listed are in the lower range of what I would consider a good position and company. I've done pretty much every job in the last 8 years all working through recruiters. Headhunting seems to be an exploding field, so it takes weeding through vast pile of them to find one that is of real quality and service, but once you find a place like that, they will take care of you and represent you well. I also like it because they negotiate the salary or wage for you, with your input and guidelines of course. Plus recruiters seems to get all the best positions, as companies don't want to waste time sifting through the sea of unqualified candiates either. My advice would be to find a good recruiter, and if you have the skills, you'll be their favorite person in the world.
no kidding, it works
You won't get past the jobs screening process cold calling companies, as you've already experienced. Instead you have to find ways to get out there and meet people without interviewing, like at industry meet ups, learn how to sell yourself, accomplish things on your own that you can talk about (they don't have to make money, just be cool enough to show off), and build a network of people that respect your ability and get work through that.
Contract work is a great way to get your foot in the door.
When you first start be willing to work for less / do less interesting work, do a great job at that, and you'll find yourself in demand, then you can start being more particular about what you work on and making more. It takes a lot of work, of course, and more work than if you had a formal education.
My thoughts (having just come from a very similar place)... Write a narrative around the darn degree, and put it out there from the beginning. "Two years into from my bachelor's degree in Computer Science, life took me sideways. I've never managed to find the right combination of time and money to go back and check that box, but I've never stopped learning new, valuable skills like A, B, and C." Find a marketing or creative person to help you write your "story". Then practice it over and over until it rolls out of you automatically. If a company is gonna be hard over on the degree requirement, get to the "no" right away and move on to companies that are more flexible. When I was applying for jobs, I would write a point-by-point response to the job requirement list in my cover letter . "I'm sure you're inundated with applicants. Let me save us both some time and prequalify myself. You asked for blank/blank/blank, I have blank/blank/blank." Whenever I could, I put the degree thing first, "You've asked for a 4-yr degree. If this is a firm requirement, then I thank you for your time. If instead, you're looking for someone who brings broad real-world experience and a thirst for learning, let me tell you how I meet the rest of your requirements." If you're qualified for the job and this doesn't get them over the hurdle, nothing will and you probably don't want to work there anyway. Know it's a numbers game. In the current environment, employers can hold out for the perfect candidate. Apply for everything which might be a fit, as soon after it's posted as possible. If you're not sure, apply anyway (except at key companies where the perfect job for you might crop up in the next few months). My current job (which I love!) came from a posting that I almost didn't apply for. The rejections are hard, and the "black hole" non-responses are maybe even harder. That's a sign of the times, not your skill. If you're not into the system in the first few days, you're probably out of luck because the hiring managers have stopped looking. Yes, network as much as possible. There are many of us who were told, "Put your head down, do a good job, don't waste your employer's money socializing, and everything will work out just fine." Mom and Dad, bless their well-meaning souls were WRONG. So if you find yourself without a network of sufficient quality, start working on it as uncomfortable as that might be. Linked In. Meetups (meetup.com). Industry events. Put it out to your friends that you need a job. This last was the absolute hardest for me. It sounds sappy, but someone told me, "You have to put it out to the Universe." When I, with maximum discomfort, did that I found that my friends and colleagues absolutely rallied to my support. And though I ended up taking a job from a complete stranger, it helped just knowing I had a better network than I had previously thought. Do this without looking or feeling "broken". "I was hoping to start a consulting business, but it's not evolving fast enough, and now I really need to focus on getting the bills paid. If you hear of anything that fits me, let me know!" This way you're not "begging" your friend/acquaintance for a job, but simply telling them your need. Make it an out-of-body experience. There are many, many highly qualified people out of work. It's very easy to start to doubt everything you think you know about yourself. Whatever inspires you and makes you feel the most empowered... drink it up. Especially before an interview. Make yourself as young as possible. Agism is wrong, but real. This isn't just about your hair color. Self-teach yourself a bit about social networking, internet marketing, mobile apps... whatever is relevant to your industry. Even catching up on pop culture -- television, music -- makes a difference in my opinion. Hang tough! I don't know you from Adam, but I wish you good luck and will be sending positive vibes in your direction! !!!2u
I wonder how much of it is the age thing vs completely cryptic HR screens. It was so much easier when I was in the public sector and the job announcement followed a strict form. You set your resume to answer every bullet point in the job description and if you hit all the checks it got past the mouth breathers and onto the desk of who would actually be hiring you. In the private sector, I've seen job announcements like that to cryptic touchy-feely bullshit like "Do you dream in DLL? Do you get a chubby writing device drivers?" Honestly. Spell out what the hell the job does and leave it at that. All my degree did was give me an understanding of the language of software engineering. It did absolutely nothing to prepare me for the reality (not to mention that the language of choice in uni was Java and now I'm in a QT/C++ house. Not exactly square one, but certainly not hit the ground running like an old crusty grey hair with no degree would do).
Grecian Formula 16 or Clarol depending on your fancies. Henna can be good for a short-term change (50/50 joking/serious).
As for the rest... can you show them any of your work?
Especially good would be something relevant to the field of interest.
No? How about showing them design notes for your latest personal project? Things that lay out data structures and how they interact?
Depending on the field, can you show them 'buzzwork'... work in the latest
tech-buzz stuff? Parallelization? Async I/O? Async web-io clients?
Find out what they are looking for, what their interests are, crash-study to become as much of an expert as you can in their field of interest -- so you can reliably speak and talk like an expert. Don't speak beyond your expertise, cuz if you over-speak your knowledge, cuz it will be inevitable that Murphy will be on the review staff if you do (if you don't, he won't).
Interview them -- find out what they are planning and what they want to do -- tell them how you can help them. If you can -- start thinking strategies to help them solve their problem and ask if they'd though of "this" approach -- NOTE -- you have to know the field to pull this off well, so advanced study of your potentials is a big must.
Getting past their preconceptions can only happen if you get a chance to demonstrate something outside of their expectations for "someone of your age and appearance"...which is always "a bit" challenging. People base so much on little things like your email address, (is it at yahoo, your own domain? google? sbc/att? Do you look like a tourist or a serious hacker?)
A website showing some cool things -- especially your own creations, can be a big bonus -- but even if not your own things, did you setup the website yourself? Did you create it yourself? What techs does it (or do you use)?
Each situation is unique && has its own challenges. I wish you the best of luck, as I know employers can discriminate with impunity in today's pro-business environment. They have all the marbles in their court as they don't have to give you a reason why they said no...
I agree with you, the only thing that makes it weirder is that IT computer admins have always been computer admins to me and now seeing "administrative assistants" being called admins just makes it confusing. The first time I was introduced to the new brand of "admin" I was like, she's not dressed like a computer admin, more like a secretary and yeah, she was a rebranded "administrative assistant".
Only I can judge you.
>Despite many accomplishments, published papers, and more, I cannot seem to get past the canned hiring process and actually get before a hiring manager.
With a history like that you shouldn't be going through a canned hiring process.
You're doing something wrong.
Talking to former co-workers and moving into positions at companies they've vetted as decent places to work is often a great deal for all parties involved - you get a good job, work with the same excellent people again, and their company gets a known well-performing quantity. That doesn't work as well when you've progressed to leadership roles too far beyond your peers or have other career goals that are too different like making enough to cease working for money at which point you start your own companies. I suspect new peers you'd like to work with again make that a temporary situation but have yet to verify.
Where that's not reasonable as a senior person you should be having casual encounters with technical directors (in big companies only; at small companies you want to go up the food chain to some one more able and willing to speak about the business), VPs of engineering, or CTOs in person (coffee is popular) or on the phone in which both parties get a feel for each other and determine whether a long term relationship is worth pursuing at this time or in the future. A decent linkedin presence should be enough to net this with inbound contacts directly from executives in young companies and from recruiters for larger organizations.
Those recruiters fall into two broad categories - keyword matchers taking a shotgun approach, and more targeted ones that have a better understanding of how things work and what your CV implies. The former usually don't have anything interesting to offer and I don't have much experience dealing with them. The later will make introductions. Some will try to funnel you directly into a hiring process which begins with a technical phone screen, but any place you want to work (executives recognize engineers' importance to the bottom line and consider you worth their time) you can get away with not doing technical interviews on the first date and push for a personal introduction.
if they could be, why in God's name would the companies go to the trouble of paying for the Visas? Those aren't free you know. Also, the H1-Bs typically work for $35-$40k/yr and work 60-80 hours a week. They're doing the work of 2 people for half the pay, in effect replacing 4 Salaries.
There are other factors. India has a growing middle class looking for opportunities. If they find them here then they won't care so much that their native country is a hell hole. It takes the pressure off the 1% of India to make their country a better place. At the end of the day it's all about the race to the bottom.
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For instance, I don't even have an irrelevant degree and I just got interest from Facebook for a JavaScript developer position after honing my skills at JS and client-side development for the last 5-6 years or so. I would imagine Java and C# probably tend to have a bit more academic bias than most other popular web-languages since academia is in part greatly responsible for their popularity in the first place. The client-side/UI folks on the other hand tend to care the least because we can typically size each other up in a handful of questions.
But yeah, really badass web developers and I suspect higher end programmers in general really don't care. What they do care about though is whether you're a rookie professionally and in your situation it would likely take some work on personal projects and collaboration on open source or working very cheap to get your foot in the door. Oh, and I'm 39 btw. I think I got like one gray hair a while back but it's hard to tell because I'm blonde. I basically pissed away my 20s on alcohol, video game journalism, and just being a putz in general so no, it's not like I even had a lot to show for myself when I got my act together and focused on this career 6 years back. The first year wasn't easy.
For programming the best advice I can give is that you not worry about the numbers so much where language is concerned. In fact it might pay to put more effort into the stuff that doesn't have the most jobs advertised. If something is somewhat popular and you get really good at it, your chances will be much better than if you jump into say Java and your sans-college resume is one in a pile of 10,000 that will go through a rigorous screening process by non-tech people long before it reaches an engineer.
And if you happen to be great at JavaScript, check to make sure you're not forgetting to wear pants at the interview because demand is high and nobody's waiting for colleges to pump out decent JS devs.
I think you'll find that obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception is illegal.
Fraud Act 2006, chapter 35 section 2:
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) intends, by making the representation—
(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) it is untrue or misleading, and
(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) the person making the representation, or
(b) any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
May I ask, which accredited institution are you attending? I've been looking for an actual legitimate one but haven't had much luck.
1. I worked as a 'wage slave' for a few companies until formal retirement age. One of these then had troubles doing a job I had done (they hired a multi degree person who had 'book learning' but no real work skills).
2. Phone call to me. I resisted, as they wanted too long a work week, then gave in after forming a Limited Company (private limited company UK = Delaware private Inc) to separate my assets from work risks. Did first short contract at their 'long week'.
3.Next contract offer I said only if a short work week. They accepted. Now on my 28th contract and 8 years later well into my seventies hired again.
4. Get the skill set right for the company and you are then 'proven worth'.
Regards Eion MacDonald
I'm using Charter Oak State College. This is because they are an accredited and respected school, specializing in in distance learning, which accepts a high enough score on a recent Computer Science GRE exam for credit-by-exam on many of the course requirements, and (if certain requirements are met, such as being active in an industry using them) accepts older credits (i.e. math, distribution requirements) that many other institutions would consider "stale" and timed-out. They do not currently offer a BSCS, however, so I'm going for a BSGS with a CS concentration. I've taken three classes from them so far, and am currently taking a math class (needed but not offered there) from the University of North Dakota for transfer credit. Several of my few remaining requirements I expect to complete by exam (and a couple - public speaking, English - by waiver due to documented work experience).
Another excellent school (with a more technical orientation) that also specializes in distance learning is Thomas Edison. They do offer a BSCS, but stopped accepting the CS subject GRE for credit (because too few students used it for them to continue the effort of keeping it qualified against their own requirements). In my case this made a big difference in how much work would be required to reach the diploma. For some others, especially those who need many of the classes (or test-out equivalents), are tech focused, and would find the more directly applicable degree a benefit, Thomas Edison would be a good choice.
These schools are oriented toward people who wish to complete their degrees but are employed or located where going to a classic college is impractical. Examples: Deployed military personnel, low-level medical employees seeking higher certifications for career advancement, workers located far from a good subject-appropriate school or working schedules that interfere with school scheduling.
Two credit-by-examination programs are also related to this. DANTES is one - driven by the military's need to provide education for their soldiers without interfering with their duties (but open to all). Another is CLEP (College Level Examination Program), a product of the College Board which provides 33 subject tests which are accepted as proof of accomplishment by most universities. Each program lets you receive college credits without actually taking a class, by testing whether you've successfully taught yourself the subject.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
By the way: Charter Oak's mandatory "cornerstone" class was a wonderful experience, and just what I needed. Think of it as a boot camp on how to research and write academic papers (and read them). VERY enabling.
I wish I'd had the equivalent when starting at my first University back in 1975.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I wish I'd had the equivalent when starting at my first University back in 1975.
Typo: Back in 1965.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
People hire based on familiarity. Young CS grads from Stanford think only young CS grads from top-flight universities know how to design software. Start-up jockeys who dropped out of college think only drop outs with start-up experience know how to design software. I'm also an old(er) auotdidact. I like older, experienced people who have demonstrated passion for their craft by teaching themselves.
I have no idea. I'm a dumb Englishman. I live in England.
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
that part's not rocket science. Americans make too much money. We live too well. Our air is too clean and our food too nutritious.
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You obviously still have the experience and qualifications for the job, you just need to get yourself recognized for it. Since a resume is often the first thing an employer will see, make it stand out from the crowd. There are some really useful tools out there to generate really unique, eye-catching pieces for a resume. For example, there's one called visualize.me that you can use to generate visual models reflecting your past experience or skill sets. If you can make your resume reflect new, progressive technologies, you'll combat any negative stigma due to age. As for the degree, many employers cut a break to older generations because the specialized college degrees were less common when they were college aged. If you can make them think you're the best for the job, it won't matter. Networking is also INCREDIBLY useful for the job hunt, but I won't ramble about it. Here's a great article with more info about visualize.me, info on other tools, and ways to use networking to your benefit: http://www.jobs.net/Article/CB-88-Talent-Network-IT-3-Job-Search-Tools-for-the-IT-Geek/
"and engineer"? When did they quit teaching proper English in American schools?
There are places this is true, like in Texas, and its likely a major reason the DFW area has not had a recent NAB show. Seems some idiot trying to make points was collecting business cards & sent quite a few to the attention of the local DA. My best guess is that out of the 50,000 'engineers' at the last confab they held in Dallas, less than half had a degree from any 'accredited' school, including me. I personally have a GED and a degree from the University of Hard Knocks. But I've also had a 1st Phone since '62, directly involved with the design & fabrication of equipment for use in the broadcast industry in my first gig as a broadcast engineer. I was the troubleshooter you called when the factory folks can't fix it, a C.E.T. since 1972, had the Chief Engineers title plate on the office door all except 2 years since 1977, finally retired at about 67 back in 2002. In that time frame I wrote 2 programs which became daily must works at 2 different facilities, used continuously for a decade and change at both places.
Engineers create solutions to problems. Even after I retired, I was sent to other facilities that were in technical trouble, and in a month or so things that hadn't worked right in years were back doing their job. That sort of reputation travels by word of mouth, so I didn't have to advertise, the people I worked for did it for me. And I didn't ask for raises, they just happened. I retired at a salary that was about 40% more than the average salary in that market bracket. And my phone continues to ring occasionally.
In the CE's capacity, I have hired quite a few, and fired 1 or 2. The poster above using the superwiz handle, would not have been one of them. For all his bragging, his hands will not 'fit the tools'. Mine have, and bear the scars.
FWIW, I do like your sig, its dead on.
Cheers, Gene