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Why Engineering Freshmen Should Take Humanities Courses

Lasrick sends in an article from John Horgan at Scientific American explaining why he thinks engineering freshmen should make a bit of space in their course-load for the humanities. Quoting: "But it is precisely because science is so powerful that we need the humanities now more than ever. In your science, mathematics and engineering classes, you're given facts, answers, knowledge, truth. Your professors say, 'This is how things are.' They give you certainty. The humanities, at least the way I teach them, give you uncertainty, doubt and skepticism. The humanities are subversive. They undermine the claims of all authorities, whether political, religious or scientific. This skepticism is especially important when it comes to claims about humanity, about what we are, where we came from, and even what we can be and should be. Science has replaced religion as our main source of answers to these questions. Science has told us a lot about ourselves, and we’re learning more every day. But the humanities remind us that we have an enormous capacity for deluding ourselves."

31 of 564 comments (clear)

  1. Oh, gag me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The humanities are subversive. They undermine the claims of all authorities,

    BULLSHIT.

    The "humanities" in modern American academia are so fucking orthodox they might as well be called the "government worship department."

    1. Re:Oh, gag me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      but they do introduce Engineers mainly male engineers to to girls something that normally dosnt happen much briefly.

    2. Re:Oh, gag me. by mwvdlee · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "We live in a world increasingly dominated by science. "

      That's like saying "We live in a world increasingly dominated by reality".
      If science doesn't match reality, than it's not science (or atleast the specific scientific theory is broken).
      Humanities is religion for people who don't believe in a deity.

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    3. Re:Oh, gag me. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Humanities is religion for people who don't believe in a deity."

      I think it's the other way around. I think majors in the humanities should take some engineering courses... like some basic math, and formal logic.

      Then maybe "the common man" would have a little bit better basis to assess what effect "science" issues are having on them, on society, on government.

      GP brings up the subject of AGW, and that's a great example. A great many folks have no way of evaluating what's being said, so they just pick a source to go with, whether that's Scientific American (just for example) or Fox News, or (far worse than Fox, according to a recent Pew study) MSNBC.

      I'm not taking sides here. I'm just saying that's not informed decision making.

    4. Re:Oh, gag me. by solidraven · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't forget the stereotype wannabe communists!

      I agree engineering students should get some basic classes on economy and maybe one on communication so they stop making awful presentations. But psychology, sociology, etc., hell no! First of all, it should be the other way around. I have yet to meet a research psychologist that actually uses statistics correctly. And political science and philosophy majors tend to lose flat-out in debates against engineering students, simply because the latter knows how to analyse the situation correctly. Engineering is more about analysing problems, seeing the possible solutions for said problems and then implementing them. Arguing and being sceptic is based on the same premises. So in fact it should be the other way around.

      If it's the other way around it might also make more of them fail, reducing the over-supply of humanities majors.

    5. Re:Oh, gag me. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I am ok with engineers taking humanity. However humanity majors needs to take some real math and science.

      No one should graduate a 4 year college without at least 2 semesters of calculious and one 200 level or above elective in math and 2 lab science. And colleges shouldn't water them down for humanity majors. They fail they take the class over again.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Oh, gag me. by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

      and spelling. Spelling courses are emportant.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    7. Re:Oh, gag me. by gtall · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you had a numb of an idea but then you lost the thread. Science and tech are to some extent rudderless. What the humanities should teach is how to build rudders. And good humanities departments do just that. They don't pronounce this or that science or tech good or bad, but rather how to evaluate them in the presence of externalities that have no counterpart at the science and tech level. This is probably what makes you think that they devolve into politics. However, politics is how societies (at least in free ones) enforce externalities. That latter is precisely what is going on now with NSA and information privacy. Privacy is an externality that doesn't translate particularly well into the tech, or if it does, there are several translations, no canonical translation.

    8. Re:Oh, gag me. by nbauman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Did you ever take a humanities class?

      I realize there are good humanities classes and bad humanities classes, like everything else in the world, but you don't have any idea of what humanities is all about.

      In my freshman humanities class, the first thing they gave us to read was the Apology of Socrates. Out of respect for the short attention span of people today, I'll refer you to the Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_Of_Socrates

      Bottom line: Socrates disagreed with most of the other citizens of Athens. He was right. They were wrong.

    9. Re:Oh, gag me. by BrokenHalo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think majors in the humanities should take some engineering courses... like some basic math, and formal logic.

      The most clued-up logicians I have ever met are graduates in philosophy. Logic is a seriously hard course of study, and I haven't met many engineers who are up to the challenge. (It's just a pity that philosophers are doomed to unemployment.)

      On the other hand, I don't know if the universities I have attended are typical, but I have noticed an extreme level of erudition with regard to humanities in a majority of the most brilliant mathematics professors I have known. It seems to come with the territory, for some reason. I have not noticed any such broad-mindedness among engineers.

    10. Re:Oh, gag me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it's the other way around. I think majors in the humanities should take some engineering courses... like some basic math, and formal logic.

      Oh the arrogance of the all-knowing engineer! While this statement is certainly ALSO true, this kind of attitude is exactly why this article was posted...

      A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

      -Robert A. Heinlein

    11. Re:Oh, gag me. by hackula · · Score: 4, Informative

      Humanities is religion for people who don't believe in a deity.

      This may be the case in 101 classes. This is definitely not the case in upper level humanities classes. I majored in Philosophy and Computer Science. My Philosophy courses were much more rigorous in terms of logic and discrete mathematics than anything I learned in CS. My senior thesis was in the field of genetics, and it had nothing to do with ethics or other periphery issues. I studied under a man who was the protege of Thomas Kuhn, who if you were not aware, was a pretty big deal in science... as a philosopher.

    12. Re:Oh, gag me. by buddyglass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Puh-lease. And I say this as someone with a Maths degree: the vast, vast majority of college graduates would derive zero benefit from two semesters of calculus, even if they passed with top marks. If anything, I'd rather them take a probability and statistics class. Discrete math. Something with a proof or two. But calculus? No thanks.

    13. Re:Oh, gag me. by _anomaly_ · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I agree with some of what you say, but after reading a bunch of posts where people are trying to use anecdotal evidence as proof that something is as such everywhere, I had to comment at some point.

      I agree engineering students should get some basic classes on economy and maybe one on communication so they stop making awful presentations.

      Agree.

      But psychology, sociology, etc., hell no!

      Disagree. There's no harm in this, and in my experience (like what everyone else's comment is based on, but no one is disclaiming) you can only benefit. Yes I slept through most of my Psychology lectures and still got an A, but there were interesting bits that made me think from time to time. There were humanities classes that made me read books that I would have never picked up, and I'm grateful for it. I still refer back to things I learned in Music History from time to time.
      It is my belief that engineering students should take a healthy dose of humanities classes, not as many as possible as the article implies and not none at all as most comments here scream outright. The more well-rounded we ALL are, engineers and humanitarians (if that's the right word here) alike, the better off we all are.

      I have yet to meet a research psychologist that actually uses statistics correctly.

      Never mind the anecdotal evidence, but it's not proof of anything, especially when I would lay a healthy bet on saying most "engineers" (or those purporting to be an engineer) haven't done an integral since school, and a lot probably don't recall for what they are even used.

      And political science and philosophy majors tend to lose flat-out in debates against engineering students, simply because the latter knows how to analyse the situation correctly.

      Disagree. But then again, your evidence is as anecdotal as mine. I agree that engineering students typically know how to analyze a problem or situation better, but the Philosophy courses that I took taught me a lot about how you should form logical arguments, critical in these debates about which you speak. On the other hand, the Logic classes at the engineering school taught me the subject from a different perspective, where I learned more about how to combine logical statements to get the desired outcome. Both related, and neither more significant than the other in my eyes.

      Engineering is more about analysing problems, seeing the possible solutions for said problems and then implementing them.

      Agree.

      Arguing and being sceptic is based on the same premises.

      Somewhat agree, but a subject such as philosophy is heavily based on forming arguments and being skeptical.

      So in fact it should be the other way around.

      Agree, in a way. It should go both ways.

      TL;DR;
      This war on humanities is mostly derived from a preconceived notion that "they're stupid and we're smart" that a lot of students in the sciences have towards those in the humanities. If a lot of us would get off our pedestal for a second, and open our minds to more than what's outside the realm of science, we may just learn something.
      It doesn't mean we have to denounce what we've learned in our science and engineering courses.

      I was a Computer Engineering and Computer Science major and got a M.Eng.

      --
      "I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
  2. Better idea: by TheEyes · · Score: 5, Informative

    Scientists should take courses on Rational Thinking. That's basically what you're after here, and it has the advantage of specifically targetting the problems you are trying to address, rather than taking the shotgun approach and trying to get every STEM student to become a Renaissance Man.

    1. Re:Better idea: by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In your science, mathematics and engineering classes, you're given facts, answers, knowledge, truth. Your professors say, 'This is how things are.' They give you certainty.

      Humanist misunderstands what Science and the Scientific method are, tells us we need to be taught to question things, when the entire basis of the field is questioning things, and never believing anything to be fact, knowledge or truth.

    2. Re:Better idea: by mjwx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In your science, mathematics and engineering classes, you're given facts, answers, knowledge, truth. Your professors say, 'This is how things are.' They give you certainty.

      Humanist misunderstands what Science and the Scientific method are, tells us we need to be taught to question things, when the entire basis of the field is questioning things, and never believing anything to be fact, knowledge or truth.

      So what you're saying is that 1st year Humanists need to take an engineering course?

      I'd definitely agree with that.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  3. Should take law by anarcobra · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Engineering students should take courses in law so they can have some idea how to avoid legal problems.
    Also, it could give us some lawyers who actually know what they are talking about.

    1. Re:Should take law by SerpentMage · · Score: 5, Informative

      We do in Canada. Granted the course was a simple introduction, but it sure helped me understand the legal system and its underpinnings.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    2. Re:Should take law by Vintermann · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Law students should take courses in statistics, statistical modelling, and applied statistics in the social sciences. So that they avoid elementary mistakes like the prosecutor's fallacy, and so they could systematically identify biases in their own profession.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  4. I would have thought it more important by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would have thought it more important that humanities students take a basic science and engineering course, so they at least have some understanding of how things work, scientific method, and what a theory is. I think the idea that scepticism comes from humanities rather than science is a joke, and shows a complete misunderstanding of falsifiability and Karl Popper's work on the philosophy of science.

  5. Humanities can't explain the need for humanities by blarkon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In general, advocates of the humanities have done a poor job of explaining why they are necessary. Which is problematic given that one of the things one would hope that someone in the humanities could do was come up with excellent persuasive arguments about things.

  6. and the other way around by stenvar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Engineering students should take humanities courses, and they often do. But humanities students should also take science and engineering courses. It's called a liberal arts education, and it should be mandatory. No English major, anthropologist, or historian should get a degree without demonstrating a reasonable understanding of statistics, calculus, physics, chemistry, and computer science.

    Unfortunately, most people educated in the humanities are thoroughly ignorant of science, engineering, and mathematics. As a consequences, they are completely baffled by how the modern world works and then proceed to produce utter garbage in their own fields as a result.

  7. Wait what by Azure+Flash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "In your science, mathematics and engineering classes, you're given facts, answers, knowledge, truth. Your professors say, 'This is how things are.'"

    That's a funny way to hear "those are only approximations", "there's always going to be some margin of error" or "we're not 100% sure how this behaves".

    1. Re:Wait what by Zaelath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, if anything taught me to be skeptical it was my science courses; they teach you over and over again how every model you have is a shitty approximation that helps the level of understanding you need for that course. e.g. the model of the atom changes *drastically* between it's primary school introduction, to high school, to undergraduate, to post graduate courses.

      The humanities course were full of people that were extremely confident that their morals were correct and universal, there was a much tighter focus on what to think rather than how to think.

      I see a lot more people with humanities backgrounds being very confident that God is real and Climate Change is not, and for the same reasons.

  8. Re:Humanities can't explain the need for humanitie by lxs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not just Americans, but it is the idea that everything you learn must be done in the interest of making money.
    The Humanities are important because they link people with their culture on a deeper level than the latest blockbuster does. They enrich the soul and give you a place in eternity, which in turn boosts your self esteem and reduces depression. Even the things your average geek enjoys like video games and science fiction are informed on a deep level by culture and the arts.

    In short, Humanities deal with the things that make life worth living. Dressing it up as hard science does both science and the arts a disservice.

  9. Scientists and engineers are innately skeptical by physicsphairy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In my experience, scientists and engineers come ladled with doubts on human authority. In fact, it is often something that derives their dislike of the humanities—they trust numbers and figures, but when it comes to interpreting poems or arguing politics, their skepticism leads them to wish little to do with it. (and if it's not skepticism then it's their relative lack of skill)

    I go to an engineering school which has almost no arts program. (Some english, history, and philosophy -- just what we need for general accreditation.) Although I myself am pretty keen on literature and many of the humanities, I hear all the gripes from the engineers. And I can tell you exactly what is wrong with this "scientists need humanities to understand such and such" approach. Scientists and engineers understand exactly what they need to achieve what they want, and thoroughly resent being shoe-horned into somebody else's idea of a well-rounded graduate when it has absolutely nothing to do with their personal interest or goals.

    If you want the STEM crowd to embrace the humanities, stop trying to justify why they should join your program and come up with a new program especially for them. Let their literature be Isaac Asimov and Frank Herbert. Teach them "Art in Fractional Dimension with Computer Generated Imagery." Give them a music class where they build instruments and synthesizers. Let them walk into the classroom and feel on the very first day like they have something to contribute.

    When science and math students walk into a humanities classroom and all their talent and ability in math and science is immediately considered moot, it's not them rejecting the humanities, it's the humanities rejecting them.

  10. The humanities can be too hard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I almost flunked out of college in computer science because I couldn't pass my humanities classes. I had to take writing 5 times in order to finally pass--and I mean literally 5.

    American English is my native language, and I'm much better at spelling and grammar than most people I know. I just can't think of things to say about literature and history for which I care nothing. In other words, my computer science brain is not well-versed in the ancient art that they eloquently call "bullshit".

  11. "All" authorities? by crioca · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The humanities are subversive. They undermine the claims of all authorities, whether political, religious or scientific.

    But not academic.The humanities have become woefully dogmatic and riddled with citogenesis, where theories without a solid body of supporting evidence are held up as solid platforms from which other assumptions can be made. Then again, perhaps the humanities could use an influx of students of engineering and hard sciences. Could be entertaining...

  12. Re:Humanities can't explain the need for humanitie by Prune · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Great post! As someone pointed out in the discussion to a similar story a few months ago, once civilization gets above the level of mere subsistence, culture is pretty much the entire point of human existence--something I wholeheartedly agree with, even though I'm an engineer.

    --
    "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
  13. Mod Parent Up by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So true. Or as Albert Einstein said:
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm
    "For the scientific method can teach us nothing else beyond how facts are related to, and conditioned by, each other. The aspiration toward such objective knowledge belongs to the highest of which man is capabIe, and you will certainly not suspect me of wishing to belittle the achievements and the heroic efforts of man in this sphere. Yet it is equally clear that knowledge of what is does not open the door directly to what should be. One can have the clearest and most complete knowledge of what is, and yet not be able to deduct from that what should be the goal of our human aspirations. Objective knowledge provides us with powerful instruments for the achievements of certain ends, but the ultimate goal itself and the longing to reach it must come from another source. And it is hardly necessary to argue for the view that our existence and our activity acquire meaning only by the setting up of such a goal and of corresponding values. The knowledge of truth as such is wonderful, but it is so little capable of acting as a guide that it cannot prove even the justification and the value of the aspiration toward that very knowledge of truth. Here we face, therefore, the limits of the purely rational conception of our existence.
    But it must not be assumed that intelligent thinking can play no part in the formation of the goal and of ethical judgments. When someone realizes that for the achievement of an end certain means would be useful, the means itself becomes thereby an end. Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelation of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations, and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual, seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to perform in the social life of man. And if one asks whence derives the authority of such fundamental ends, since they cannot be stated and justified merely by reason, one can only answer: they exist in a healthy society as powerful traditions, which act upon the conduct and aspirations and judgments of the individuals; they are there, that is, as something living, without its being necessary to find justification for their existence. They come into being not through demonstration but through revelation, through the medium of powerful personalities. One must not attempt to justify them, but rather to sense their nature simply and clearly.
    The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. It is a very high goal which, with our weak powers, we can reach only very inadequately, but which gives a sure foundation to our aspirations and valuations. If one were to take that goal out of its religious form and look merely at its purely human side, one might state it perhaps thus: free and responsible development of the individual, so that he may place his powers freely and gladly in the service of all mankind."

    John Taylor Gatto talks about the core purpose of education in his writings, which include self-development, becoming a good citizen, and preparation for work. Unfortunately, so much focus now in schools is on preparation for work, and it is overall preparation for work like rote factory work that is less and less in existence. But, adding some humanities courses when someone is 18-21 can't repair all the damage of a missing part of K-12.
    http://www.awakenedamerican.com/content/john-taylor-gatto-explains-secrets-elite-boarding-school-education

    And:
    http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm
    "I'll bring this down to earth. Try to see that an intricately subordinate

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.