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UK Government Backs Three-Person IVF

Dupple writes "The U.K. looks set to become the first country to allow the creation of babies using DNA from three people, after the government backed the in vitro fertilization technique. It will produce draft regulations later this year and the procedure could be offered within two years. Experts say three-person IVF could eliminate debilitating and potentially fatal mitochondrial diseases that are passed on from mother to child. Opponents say it is unethical and could set the UK on a 'slippery slope.' They also argue that affected couples could adopt or use egg donors instead. Mitochondria are the tiny, biological 'power stations' that give the body energy. They are passed from a mother, through the egg, to her child. Defective mitochondria affect one in every 6,500 babies. This can leave them starved of energy, resulting in muscle weakness, blindness, heart failure and death in the most extreme cases."

132 comments

  1. How many chromosones to bake up a new baby? by Deekin_Scalesinger · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Survey says......69!

    --
    "As the intrepid kobold companion continues his journey, he begins to wonder... if priests raises dead, why anybody die?
    1. Re:How many chromosones to bake up a new baby? by slew · · Score: 1

      Survey says......69!

      Hmm, I don't think 69 will bake up a new baby...
      Also, mitochonrida don't really have a chromosome...

  2. At long last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We move to three biological genders: male, female, and unaffiliated.

    1. Re:At long last by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      When men can donate eggs, "unaffiliated" will make sense.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    2. Re:At long last by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      We move to three biological genders: male, female, and unaffiliated

      Hijra?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    3. Re:At long last by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Why a banana in the photo?

  3. Who says scientists don't get action? by crvtec · · Score: 1

    Now they'll have more threesomes than anyone...

    1. Re:Who says scientists don't get action? by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      I should have been a doctor.

    2. Re:Who says scientists don't get action? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Only the female scientists who can donate eggs will really get in on the action though.

  4. Aldous say by Empiric · · Score: 1

    Zippicamiknicks for all!

    --
    ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
  5. Slippery Slope? by erroneus · · Score: 1

    C'mon! There's a sex joke in there somewhere! Who has one?

    1. Re:Slippery Slope? by decipher_saint · · Score: 3, Funny

      Science discovered a way to make a three-way boring

      --
      crazy dynamite monkey
    2. Re:Slippery Slope? by godel_56 · · Score: 2

      Science discovered a way to make a three-way boring

      It isn't slippery, that's the problem.

    3. Re:Slippery slope? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Designer babies.

    4. Re:Slippery slope? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The slippery slope is totally sweet threeway marriages for young people, and none for the crusty old legislators who are past their child-siring years.

    5. Re:Slippery slope? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that I actually support stuff like this, ultimately wishing

      I think the problem is that people are scared that the 'wealthy' will get even more ahead, and their own children left in the dust. Or they're scared of a scenario out of Star Trek - the Eugenics wars.

      Personally, I want genetic modification to eliminate various obvious genetic disorders - breast cancer genes, diabetes, etc... However, we should not be changing genes until it's demonstrated that the gene we're fixing is actually a serious defect that is counter-survival. Assuming we approve a new fix once a year, it'd be centuries before we're ready to stretch beyond that.

      Once we've fixed the easy things, only then should we really start worrying about improving 'top line' humans - increasing intelligence, etc... And that should be addressed in a serious, gradual fashion.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    6. Re:Slippery slope? by slew · · Score: 2

      The slippery slope is that perfecting this technique is a stepping stone to designer babies.

      Apparently, the current technology allows replacement of the whole nucleus, allowing the nucleus of a fertilized egg w/ defective mitochondria to be placed into another fertilized egg with healthy mitochondria. The implication is that this fertilized egg is placed back in the mother (but it could be anyone). Many folks are pretty sure that we are pretty close to the ability to selectively replace a few chromosomes in that nucleus during the swap. Presumably, the first application of this would be to replace/remove a obviously defective chromosome (say trisomy-21 aka down's syndrome) which seems like it might be the first step down the slope.

      As mappings of gene-expressions to chromosomes get more accurate, you might imagine that some specific chromosome could be selected for (take all the chromosomes except #k and get that from some other place). Although you might think that the next step might be making a kid with the "best" selection of chromosomes from a single mother and father, identifying a gene in a chromosome is currently a destructive procedure so that's not an easy path to take. Instead, the next logical step (if you allow for N>2 people in the procedure) is to pick a known good chromosome from a 3rd party. With enough 3rd parties involved, you pretty much have a designer baby... ;^)

      Of course there is an ethical side to this as well (gotta create/destroy a bunch of *human* fertilized eggs to do this) and that doesn't sit that well with many folks.

    7. Re:Slippery slope? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Does anybody have a plausible guess about what, exactly, the 'slippery slope' is supposed to be leading ominously and inevitably toward?

      1. Obtain DNA of rich person/politician/celebrity

      2. Add said DNA into embryo

      3. Carry child to term

      4. Sue for child support

      5. Profit!

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    8. Re:Slippery Slope? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slipped and fell into a threesome

    9. Re:Slippery slope? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that what most groupies try to do now anyway? Isn't that the admittedly somewhat rare circumstance when a woman unilaterally carries a baby to term and then sues for child support?

      Captcha: casework.

  6. Unethical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unethical - adj. A word describing anything I don't like that makes me feel bad regardless of whether I have actually considered the thing in question.

    1. Re:Unethical by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      May I steal that bit? It's one of the best definitions I've ever read.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Unethical by Ultracrepidarian · · Score: 1, Insightful

      When eukaryotes invented 2 way sex 1.2 Billion years ago, it was considered controversial too.

  7. easy non-controversial fix by Yohahn · · Score: 1

    If it's so controversial, why not just get the mitochondrial dna from the father?

    1. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Technical reasons, you can't just swap mitochondria, they probably need an egg cell (and swap the nucleus). So the donor needs to be female. A sister of the father would do :)

    2. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If it's so controversial, why not just get the mitochondrial dna from the father?

      Because it's not easy. This method (see article) uses an egg from one women, an egg nucleus from another women and sperm from a man. If you can get the father to produce an egg then you're easy non-controversial fix just might work.

    3. Re:easy non-controversial fix by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      The nuclear DNA from the egg with the dodgy mDNA is transferred into a donor egg with healthy mDNA. I presume there are reasons you can't replace the mDNA in an egg from another source. Maybe it doesn't survive outside a cell.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    4. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What's controversial to me is choosing to have a baby with defects.

    5. Re:easy non-controversial fix by pesho · · Score: 0

      If it's so controversial, why not just get the mitochondrial dna from the father?

      Whatever you do there will always be people that will say it is controversial, because of the proverbial slippery slope that will appear at some point in the undefined future. In this case, it is supposed top put us on the path to designer babies. Well it doesn't. This is not targeted manipulation of the genetic content. It is nuclear transfer, similar to what is already a wide spread and well accepted in vitro fertilization procedure. Sure you can isolate mitochnodria from the father and place them in the egg. However this will add complexity to the procedure without producing better outcome. In fact, is is very likely to produce significantly worse outcome. This is because you can transfer only small amount of mitochondria compared to what is already in the egg. As the egg divides the chances are that you will end up with a number of cells that don't carry enough of the father's mitochondria, because mitochondria unlike chromosomes are distributed stochastically between the daughter cells.

    6. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Probably because sperm has about 1000x less than an egg and it's programmed to self destruct.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    7. Re:easy non-controversial fix by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      What's controversial to me is choosing to have a baby with defects.

      Ah, but that's a 100% natural form of child abuse, and we all know that things that are natural are good for us!

    8. Re:easy non-controversial fix by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      A sister of the father would do :)

      Apparently, the opponents screaming "bloody unethical" got your sentence reshuffled as "The father would do a sister".

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's controversial to me is choosing to have a baby with defects.

      Yeah, but the parents don't always know the baby will turn out ot be a /. "editor".

      (j/k)

    10. Re:easy non-controversial fix by sjames · · Score: 2

      The source/lineage of the mtDNA isn't the controversy. The controversy is many-fold.

      First up, a donor embryo is sacrificed in the procedure. You can imagine what groups don't like that.

      Second, the procedure is remarkably similar to cloning. All sorts of people aren't so sure about that.

      Finally, it's highly experimental. If something goes odd, the child may (or may not) have to live with it for a long time. Teasing a nucleus out of one cell and sticking it in another is a bit disruptive to say the least.

    11. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 2

      Watch the daily show from last night to see what unnatural things are natural. And I didn't mean any offense to anyone who has children with "defects". It's just a choice I would have trouble making.

    12. Re:easy non-controversial fix by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Certainly, I'm not inclined to blame people hit by previously-unknown or very low probability issues. That would be as cruel as it is illogical. It's the ones who knowingly act in the face of alarmingly high odds of ghastly outcomes who creep me out.

    13. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 2

      One thing that worries me is that this choice seems to be on the rise, especially with Downs Syndrome (possibly due to the trend of more births late in life, where that lateness reduces the chances of another successful pregnancy). I see it everywhere now in the progressive community in which I live. I would go so far as to speculate that in centuries past, child sacrifice may have been nature's way of dealing with such defects. Humans that would not have survived in the natural world are kept alive in our increasingly artificial world. Nice talking to you.

    14. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's controversial to me is choosing to have a baby with defects.

      Speaking as someone married to a brilliant, wonderful 40-year-old woman with spina bifida (whose mother saw fit to carry her to term despite doctors saying she would be severely retarded, never walk, and probably not see her third birthday) -- fuck you.

    15. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. You miss the point. If your wife's mother had the option to have her child treated in utero which would mean she would not have spina bifida, and yet chose not to have that treatment with the full knowledge that her child would be born with SB...would you be upset at her mother?

    16. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      What's controversial to me is choosing to have a baby with defects.

      What's controversial to me is why you or anyone else care what choice people make when dealing with the very personal issue of which children they choose to have.

    17. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because there are so many children that need adoption?

    18. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 0

      I don't me seeing something as controversial as controversial. Explain to me how having a child with issues is better for the world, for the parents, or for me than having or adopting a child without? I predict no response.

    19. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      What's controversial (and also amusing) to me is why you think that's the case here?

      Hint: the second mother's DNA isn't there for teh lulz.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    20. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Wha...? Reread the summary and what I wrote. It's the opposite of your interpretation.

    21. Re:easy non-controversial fix by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Because what they really need is a whole cell. Pulling mitochondria from a somatic cell and putting it in an egg is probably possible, but they haven't worked that out yet.

      For that matter, a human egg may not be necessary. Maybe they can use bonobo eggs. Bonobos like to get it on.

    22. Re:easy non-controversial fix by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Yes, and this only helps with the tiny fraction of genetic diseases that are due to defective mitochondria. But maybe some day, we'll be able to deal with other diseases in a similar fashion. Pick out the chromosome that contains the defective gene, replace it with a normal chromosome from the other parent who does not have the genetic disease. Or pull a good chromosome from an unrelated person (safer, because a matched set of chromosomes can bring recessive defects out of the woodwork).

    23. Re:easy non-controversial fix by sjames · · Score: 1

      Nuclear transfer is not currently used in IVF. They harvest the eggs, they fertilize the eggs, and then implant the most viable looking candidates.

    24. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Or just adopt.

    25. Re:easy non-controversial fix by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Or just adopt.

      I won't propose technical solutions to your social problems if you don't propose social solutions to my technical problems.

    26. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      I would appreciate any solutions to my social problems.

    27. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I should have said "intracytoplasmic sperm injections", not nuclear transfer.

    28. Re:easy non-controversial fix by serviscope_minor · · Score: 0

      You are using emotional language to obscure the point. That is not a good thing. I shall re-use the same emotional language to illustrate the absurdity of it:

      What's controversial to me is why you or anyone else care what choice people make when dealing with the very personal issue of who to abdut, torture and murder.

      The thing is: it's irrelevant that it's a "very personal issue". We as a society have decided that you're not free to do what you want to other people. This is fair enough because other people generally want a say in the matter of what's done to them. The thing is if children are people, then that necessarily includes childern.

      Now I will make a continum and see where you fall.

      Most people (and I suspect you) would object to parents murdering their child.

      Likewise torturing their child

      Likewise intentionally having the child who will spend its life in agony.

      Likewise intentionally having the child who will spend its life in substantial discomfort.

      Likewise intentionally having the child who will be disabled

      etc.

      TL;DR you can't do what you want to people, your children are no exception.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    29. Re:easy non-controversial fix by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Going to these extremes to avoid adopting one of the tens of thousands of existing children who need families is a symptom of mental illness.

      I'm not sure. Adoption is a complicated and lengthy process, you're going to be scrutinized ruthlessly if you're going for it. In case of a fertility treatment, or even a complicated procedure such as this, you're just one of many biological parents of this world.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    30. Re:easy non-controversial fix by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1, Troll

      Anecdotal evidence. Just because one child with a severe medical condition turned out right doesn't mean that diagnosing it in utero isn't a strong suggestion that "try again" would most likely bring into the world an equally brilliant person, only with fewer medical problems and with better quality of life.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    31. Re:easy non-controversial fix by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      why you or anyone else care what choice people make when dealing with the very personal issue of which children they choose to have.

      Probably because they never ask the children. Yes, it's personal, but the voices of those people who matter most are never taken into consideration.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    32. Re:easy non-controversial fix by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Or just adopt.

      ...and have the authorities invade your life needlessly for years.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    33. Re:easy non-controversial fix by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      You've got it all wrong. It's about not choosing to not have a baby with defects, which is what god wants. Or something.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    34. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      why you or anyone else care what choice people make when dealing with the very personal issue of which children they choose to have.

      Probably because they never ask the children. Yes, it's personal, but the voices of those people who matter most are never taken into consideration.

      When you figure out a way to do that, you'll win a Nobel Prize. However, you point out two things, these children are 1) people and 2) they matter, so why would denying them an existence be in their best interest?

      While I am not accusing you of this, very often people who put forth this argument are either doing so because of the burden that they would see on themselves as a parent, or the burden on society (assuming they give up the child I would guess), but not on the child being a person who matters.

      I wonder if Stephen Hawking had been able to have been given the choice, would he have chosen to live or not? It seems that his life, genetically flawed as it is, although very different from most people's, certainly has been fulfilling. As you, yourself stated, children with disabilities are people and they matter.

    35. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I was using the original poster's language. Out of curiosity, why did you not respond to his post? You have taken the argument and twisted into torture and murder. Society has established rights to protect the individual against such things and come up with punishments for violations of those rights. The two are not at all the same.

      You are correct that I would object to murdering my child (or any child). Where you logic fails is the assumption you make that every disability is equivalent to torturing your child or that the child will live their life in agony and discomfort. If it is justified to not allow a disabled child to be born, why not kill all the disabled people so they, too do not have to be tortured and live in agony?

      Genetic diseases can be terrible, can cause suffering and very often can be an inconvenience to living a full life (whatever that phrase truly means). Angelina Jolie has a genetic disease that gives her a predisposition to breast and uterine cancer. Should she never had been born because of this? Stephen Hawkings, disease is much more serious, should he had not been allowed to be born? All of these soldiers coming back from war without a limb are okay, but a child that will be born without a limb is not?

      Your argument falls short. Acts of the will committed by people (murder and torture) versus the child in utero who has made no malicious act whatsoever. We are all genetically disabled in some way or another, we just don't call it that. Instead, we have a family history of heart disease, or stroke, or diabetes or 100s of other things. So, if the goal is to eliminate pain and suffering through genetic manipulation, it's not going to work.

      Maybe, the answer is not trying to predict who should be allowed to born or not, but for those who truly are suffering and in agony, for society to help ease their suffering. A first step would be in recognizing that all human beings, regardless of their disabilities are valued.

    36. Re:easy non-controversial fix by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      these children are 1) people and 2) they matter, so why would denying them an existence be in their best interest?

      Pray tell, why is denying an existence to a healthy child that could have been born instead of a partially or fully disabled child a better option?

      I wonder if Stephen Hawking had been able to have been given the choice, would he have chosen to live or not?

      You seem to be insinuating a line of reasoning that borders on fallacy. We don't know the full extent to which ALS is caused by the individual contributing factors. We don't even know if the genetic factors that seem to be partly responsible for it in many cases in any way contributed to his mental prowess. The same Stephen Hawking might have never developed ALS if his early life had been different. Given a slightly different prenatal and childhood development, genetically the same Stephen Hawking could have developed ALS without getting the brilliance in exchange. And many other people grew into brilliant minds without suffering from ALS.

      There's no reason to assume that a yet-unborn child that to your knowledge will get born disabled or preconditioned for disability with certainty will have an offsetting factor (such as scientific brilliance) with any higher probability than that a healthy child would be gifted.

      As you, yourself stated, children with disabilities are people and they matter.

      They matter. But show me one parent that would willingly choose a disabled child upon conception instead of a healthy one if given an option. Go on, just try.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    37. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Surprised how many people interpreted my comment that way. I don't find having this IFV treatment to be controversial. I find *not* having it to be controversial.

    38. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      They're already there.

    39. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      Pray tell, why is denying an existence to a healthy child that could have been born instead of a partially or fully disabled child a better option?

      It's not an either or situation. If you have a disabled child, you are not denying a healthy child. Prior to conception there are zero children. At conception there is one child. That child is either healthy or disabled, but like Schroedinger’s cat, we don't know until we look. (That is true even if the mother or father have a predisposition for a genetic abnormality, at least for most abnormalities).

      You seem to be insinuating a line of reasoning that borders on fallacy. We don't know the full extent to which ALS is caused by the individual contributing factors. We don't even know if the genetic factors that seem to be partly responsible for it in many cases in any way contributed to his mental prowess. The same Stephen Hawking might have never developed ALS if his early life had been different. Given a slightly different prenatal and childhood development, genetically the same Stephen Hawking could have developed ALS without getting the brilliance in exchange. And many other people grew into brilliant minds without suffering from ALS.

      There's no reason to assume that a yet-unborn child that to your knowledge will get born disabled or preconditioned for disability with certainty will have an offsetting factor (such as scientific brilliance) with any higher probability than that a healthy child would be gifted.

      There is a genetic marker for ALS on chromosome 21 (I think) and a specific test for it. Although it does not run in families, it can be tested for in utero. As such, it would qualify in this discussion would it not? Even if a child born today is predestined to have ALS, just because they will not have the scientific brilliance of Hawking, are you stating that they should not be allowed to live? That sounds like an argument to kill them off unless they have some benefit for society.

      They matter. But show me one parent that would willingly choose a disabled child upon conception instead of a healthy one if given an option. Go on, just try.

      Again, that is an impossible argument, of course every parent would want their children to be healthy. However, if the mother and father have the dominate genetic traits that will lead to disabilities, it really doesn't matter how many tries they get, their children will have those traits. If only one does, then it is still better than a 50/50 chance the child will, depending on the marker. Even if neither do, there is still a 10% likelihood that there will be a disability.

      But, what your question really should be is of asking parents that have had a disabled child and what their views are about it. Would they have preferred their child had never been born? And while there are those that would agree with that sentiment, there are those that would not. Which comes back to the original question of
                Why you or anyone else care what choice people make when dealing with the very personal issue of which children they choose to have.

      As you seem to be arguing so strenuously, it is a very personal issue that unless you are directly involved with it you cannot begin to make that choice for somebody else.

    40. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I don't me seeing something as controversial as controversial.

      Explain to me how having a child with issues is better for the world, for the parents, or for me than having or adopting a child without?

      I predict no response.

      Your prediction would be wrong then.

      If you re-read what I actually said, I made no statement as to whether these children should be born or not. I simply responded to the original poster who said:

      What's controversial to me is choosing to have a baby with defects.

      To which I responded:

      What's controversial to me is why you or anyone else care what choice people make when dealing with the very personal issue of which children they choose to have.

      If you or anyone else cannot appreciate that parents faced with these types of decisions have to make personal and tough choices, then that is the real issue. If the parents choose to keep the child, that is the choice they made on behalf of their child. If they choose not to, that is likewise, the choice they made. Until we are in their shoes, in their specific life situations, none of us can judge their actions. Calling something controversial is a judgement statement that simply isn't warranted. No more or less.

    41. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      No. Calling something controversial is not a judgement statement. It is a statement that there is complexity and more than one opinion.

    42. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      No, saying that there is complexity and more than one opinion is not judgemental. Calling something controversial is a judgement statement. When used as an adjective in the manner it was used, it is a judgemental statement. When saying that politics is a controversial subject it is not. In the former one is making a statement about somebody's choice to give birth. The latter is describing the subject matter.

      Put differently, you should be able to put other judgemental adjectives in the sentance and it should still make sense if it is judgemental. So, from the original you could say "What's appalling to me is choosing to have a baby with defects" or "What's wonderful to me is choosing to have a baby with defects." Neither of those adjectives work in the politics statement without changing it from describing the subject to becoming a judgemental statement.

      Words have meaning and how we use them have further meaning. You may want to believe that the original poster was really trying to say "What is a complex subject because there is more than one opinion to me is choosing to have a baby with defects." However ,you would most likely be alone in that interpretation.

    43. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1
    44. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      One writer is an idiot, or several readers are.

      Do the math.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    45. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Everyone on slashdot is trying to demonstrate their intelligence by proving their ignorance, including me. I have met some winners recently.

    46. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Dude you are so wrong.

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/controversial

      No, I am not. Context is everything. If you look at the examples in the dictionary and that I used, when referring to a subject, like abortion or politics, then controversial is how you are intending it. When used as the original person is using it as in questioning the action somebody might take, it is a judgement statement.

      Words derive their meaning based on the context they are used in. When your teenage daughter slams down the phone and you ask how she is doing and she says "Fine," with a sigh, The definition found in the merriam-webster dictionary probably is not the meaning that would be first choice that comes to mind.

      Likewise, when use an adjective in a context that is not the normal context it is found, there is usually an different meaning implied. When you tell your kids that you put the dog to sleep, if they look that word up in the dictionary, they will have a different idea than what actually transpired. If I hook up my trailer to my car, is definitely a different meaning than if I hook up with my friend.

      Context is everything and the context that the original poster used the word controversial was not the usage from the merriam-webster dictionary, or if that was their intention, they phrased the rest of the sentence poorly so as to make it sound as if like a judgemental statement.

      In short, we are left with two choices, either the original poster did make a judgemental statement, or the original poster has a poor grasp on English grammar and miscommunicated their original intention. Regardless, the statement as presented is still a judgemental statement, as least grammatically, as written.

    47. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      CONTROVERSIAL : of, relating to, or arousing controversy controversy : a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views : dispute There is no implication of judgement in this definition. If you add something to the definition, or put words like wonderful in my mouth, that is your perception (problem), Clearly we dispute as a result of controversy. Your perceived context is just wrong.

    48. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      CONTROVERSIAL : of, relating to, or arousing controversy

      controversy : a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views : dispute

      There is no implication of judgement in this definition. If you add something to the definition, or put words like wonderful in my mouth, that is your perception (problem),

      Clearly we dispute as a result of controversy. Your perceived context is just wrong.

      You are correct there is no judgement in that definition. However as soon as you add "I find it controversial that ..." you have made a judgement statement. That is what the original poster said. The word controversial in and of it self is not a judgemental word. How it was used in the statement he made was. If you cannot realize that then there is no point discussing further.

    49. Re:easy non-controversial fix by commodore73 · · Score: 1

      Those words describe my perspective, which is not judgmental. Cancel that, you are right, I was being judgmental. Now I'm being sarcastic. And/or sardonic.

    50. Re:easy non-controversial fix by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      It's not an either or situation. If you have a disabled child, you are not denying a healthy child.

      Oh, but it is, and you are.

      Most people will only have a set number of children in their lifetime. For the majority in the western world, that's somewhere between 1 and 3. If you have one disabled child, and you were only planning on having 2 kids, you're unlikely to now change your mind and have 3.

      Additionally, depending on the exact medical condition, a deformed child may impede your ability to have further children. You may have been planning on having 2 kids, but due to the added attention and cost associated with a handicapped child, you find yourself unable to afford any further children. So instead of 2 healthy children, you end up with one who is disabled.

      Either way it doesn't seem like a good trade, to me.

      As you seem to be arguing so strenuously, it is a very personal issue that unless you are directly involved with it you cannot begin to make that choice for somebody else.

      The decision to become a heroin addict is a deeply personal one also, yet we seem to have no difficulty legislating against it. Even if you could successfully argue that "personal issues" should not be legislated, that still doesn't mean we can't do ANYTHING about it. At the very least we can make sure that people are educated on the issue, and are given the information and advice needed to make the right decision.

    51. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      It's not an either or situation. If you have a disabled child, you are not denying a healthy child.

      Oh, but it is, and you are.

      Most people will only have a set number of children in their lifetime. For the majority in the western world, that's somewhere between 1 and 3. If you have one disabled child, and you were only planning on having 2 kids, you're unlikely to now change your mind and have 3.

      Additionally, depending on the exact medical condition, a deformed child may impede your ability to have further children. You may have been planning on having 2 kids, but due to the added attention and cost associated with a handicapped child, you find yourself unable to afford any further children. So instead of 2 healthy children, you end up with one who is disabled.

      Either way it doesn't seem like a good trade, to me.

      As you seem to be arguing so strenuously, it is a very personal issue that unless you are directly involved with it you cannot begin to make that choice for somebody else.

      The decision to become a heroin addict is a deeply personal one also, yet we seem to have no difficulty legislating against it. Even if you could successfully argue that "personal issues" should not be legislated, that still doesn't mean we can't do ANYTHING about it. At the very least we can make sure that people are educated on the issue, and are given the information and advice needed to make the right decision.

      Well, if you are willing to take on the establishment and tell 1/2 the population (women) that it isn't their body and it is the government that is control of their reproductive systems and whether or not they are allowed to have children then go for it. Effectively, that is what you are saying. Just like China has determined that women should only have 1 child, you are saying that the government should dictate that women should only have children that meet certain requirements. I doubt you will find much support for that position.

    52. Re:easy non-controversial fix by Aaden42 · · Score: 1

      I don't know about UK law specifically, but in the US, every aspect of your life is an open book during an adoption. If you enjoy anything that doesn't jibe with good upstanding Christian morals (WTF ever that means..), you will have a difficult time adopting and probably have your personal life aired in ways you'd rather not have. Assuming you succeed in adopting, for some extended period of time thereafter, your life will be subject to inspection by the courts in ways that would never be considered acceptable intrusions if you'd had "your own" child. The situation of an adoptive parent is similar to one who has been accused of child abuse. There's a presumption that you're a risk, simply out of fear of the bad press from the State "giving" a baby to an abuser.

      Then there's the very real possibility that you may adopt an organism that was damaged in transit due to drugs or alcohol, etc., and you have no way of knowing until it's far too late. You could also easily find that the set of genes you've adopted had problems worse than your own. I understand wanting to have control over the process of creating your progeny from start to finish. I also understand the desire to propagate ones own genes, provided they lack (or can be made to lack through Science) any serious defects.

      I'd personally have a very hard time either submitting to the US adoption process or accepting what could easily be a broken baby that someone else discarded. I also really don't have a problem with actively modifying genetics to improve the result. "Super humans" don't particularly worry me, nor would I found them unethical. Certainly, I'd have concerns that any such (untested) process could have Unintended Consequences, but it's certainly something that seems reasonable and ethical to investigate in a controlled fashion.

    53. Re:easy non-controversial fix by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Well, if you are willing to take on the establishment and tell 1/2 the population (women) that it isn't their body and it is the government that is control of their reproductive systems and whether or not they are allowed to have children then go for it. Effectively, that is what you are saying.

      O_o

      I think you forgot to call me Hitler ....

      Just like China has determined that women should only have 1 child, you are saying that the government should dictate that women should only have children that meet certain requirements.

      Ah, ok. Yeah, Mao is just as good ....

  8. Children of lesbian couples? by Myria · · Score: 1

    Could this be used by lesbian couples in the future to have babies that are biological children of both parents? Obviously, such children would always be daughters, but I'm curious whether this sort of technique would help them.

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
    1. Re: Children of lesbian couples? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Already possible? That's just two people. This is three, and would allow a lesbian couple to have a biological child with a Y chromosome lent by a third party, so they could have a son.

    2. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Could this be used by lesbian couples in the future to have babies that are biological children of both parents?

      No.

      On the other hand, it might be a step in that direction, as well as in the more general direction of "any two people" can produce a child (as long as you're not too picky about your mitochondrial DNA)

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      That depends how you define "biological children" - mDNA is a separate string of genetic code that does one specific thing. AFAIK it has no effect on physical or mental attributes (except those that might be affected by the problems caused by faulty mDNA). So no, it won't help lesbian couples - there still has to be a daddy, so far.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    4. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Offhand it seems like it would be easier to produce a child from one parent (a clone) than from two women or two men, since in that case there is no essential difference between what each partner brings to the table.

    5. Re: Children of lesbian couples? by Opportunist · · Score: 0

      Now, why would dykes want a guy in their life?

      (go ahead, I got karma to burn on this tasteless joke)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Could this be used by lesbian couples in the future to have babies that are biological children of both parents? Obviously, such children would always be daughters, but I'm curious whether this sort of technique would help them.

      "Parethenogenesis", in mammals, is still very much in the lab. If memory serves, they've gotten some rabbits and a few mice, and some human demo cells(either not allowed to, or unable to develop past very early stages). I don't think anybody suspects it of being fundamentally intractable; but you can't exactly head down to the local fertility clinic and get it done.

    7. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If I understand correctly, this process uses two women and a man. One woman donates the egg with half a genome, the donor male provides the other half and the second woman provides the mitochondrial DNA.

    8. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by similar_name · · Score: 1

      except those that might be affected by the problems caused by faulty mDNA

      If 'faulty' mtDNA can cause problems then mtDNA has an effect. It produce's ATP which gives our cells energy. Conceptually, if a gene can be 'faulty' it only means it can mutate and if it can mutate in can evolve. Consider, if you had the most efficient mtDNA for producing ATP. Now, if a person is born that produces ATP slightly more efficiently will your genes now be 'faulty'? Of course not. In other words, differences in mtDNA might account for people who naturally have lots of energy versus those that don't.

      I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if a 'faulty' gene can cause a noticeable difference then so can a change in the gene. Genes aren't really faulty. They're just different and either they keep copying or they don't.

    9. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      If 'faulty' mtDNA can cause problems then mtDNA has an effect.

      Well, what I was trying to get at was that I don't see an mtDNA donor being any more a biological parent than, say, a bone marrow donor. The kid isn't going to have Mummy's eyes, Daddy's smile, and mtMummy's nose. What's more, if the kid's a boy, the mtDNA donor's contribution to the family gene pool ends with him.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    10. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      No, because egg+egg doesn't make an embryo. I don't think scientists know why yet.

    11. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      So aside from making your body work at all, it's totally superfluous... The truth is, we have little clue if different mitochondrial cells have effects physical or mental attributes. But if I had to bet, I'd bet that they do because they're all over the cell doing shit.

    12. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      He's going to have Mummy's eyes, Daddy's smile and mtDNA donor's energy.

    13. Re:Children of lesbian couples? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting question in the realm of culture and beliefs. Would the preservation of the mDNA maternal line suffice for the couple? It could be formulated into a feminist theology, once again polarizing the issue for lesbians. The children wouldn't always be daughters as there would be a male donor in this scenario.

    14. Re: Children of lesbian couples? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Because cucumbers can't put up shelves?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  9. I don't mind by Mike+Frett · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This at all, but there are many, many desperate children that feel so hopeless and lonely right now in some orphanage, that really do need someones love. I hope more people give thought to that, rather than the ever over-population of our Mother Earth.

    1. Re:I don't mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sure, just lobby the government to let my wife, who suffers from mild (and totally treated) bipolar disorder adopt, and we'd think about stopping IVF cycles.

    2. Re:I don't mind by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      there are many, many desperate children that feel so hopeless and lonely right now in some orphanage

      Adoption in many countries is very difficult, and plenty of potential parents do not qualify. My wife and I are financially secure, and are very successfully raising two of our own kids. But we had room in our home and our hearts for at least one more, and looked into adoption. We were turned down. The reasons given were that we were too old (I am in my 50s and my wife is in her 40s), and we already have kids of our own, and childless couples would be given priority.

      If there really are orphanages full of desperate children, then governments are doing an incredibly poor job of matching them up with willing and capable parents.

    3. Re:I don't mind by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If there really are orphanages full of desperate children, then governments are doing an incredibly poor job of matching them up with willing and capable parents.

      Willing and capable parents tend to produce productive citizens, but we have more than enough of those already. Orphanages do their best to produce criminals, who can be profitably filed under "$"

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:I don't mind by slew · · Score: 1

      there are many, many desperate children that feel so hopeless and lonely right now in some orphanage

      Adoption in many countries is very difficult, and plenty of potential parents do not qualify. My wife and I are financially secure, and are very successfully raising two of our own kids. But we had room in our home and our hearts for at least one more, and looked into adoption. We were turned down. The reasons given were that we were too old (I am in my 50s and my wife is in her 40s), and we already have kids of our own, and childless couples would be given priority.

      If there really are orphanages full of desperate children, then governments are doing an incredibly poor job of matching them up with willing and capable parents.

      Just think of using a donor egg as "adopting" that egg, and I don't think that's as difficult as adopting a baby in many countries (where IVF was available in the first place). The primary thing the 3-person IVF really enables over the commonly available 2-person IVF is that mother can have the option to be biologically related to the child if the mitochondrial dna in her eggs were somehow defective. Another way to look at it, you still have to "adopt" an egg w/ healthy mitochondria from someone (and if you were open to the normal adoption process in the first place, this would appear to be a don't care issue).

  10. I am a Greek so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28mythology%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29

  11. Re:engineering for excellence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    It has already been done. If you are unaware of this, then you know that you are not a member.

  12. I for one... by WillgasM · · Score: 1

    yadda yadda yadda.

  13. Not yet. by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    Already possible? That's just two people. This is three, and would allow a lesbian couple to have a biological child with a Y chromosome lent by a third party, so they could have a son.

    The technology to pick and choose single chromosomes out of one nucleus to replace a chromosome in another nucleus simply does not exist and may not for quite some time since DNA does not wrap itself up neatly into little X's until cellular division. No, the techniques involved are far cruder than that.

    Similarly, the technology to combine two egg nuclei into a single, viable diploid cell also does not yet exist.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  14. Why...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do we REALLY have a shortage of people having kids?

    no... no we dont.

    if you can't have kids by the old fashioned fucking... something even the lowest forms of life manage to do..

    It's not ment to be. Get over yourself and go do something useful with your life.

    (squeezing out more kids isnt one of them)

  15. Our knowledge is insufficient for GMO babies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The lack of caution shown in that UK government statement is just breathtaking. The politicians seem to be accepting everything that the industry lobbyists tell them without first seeking wide-ranging evidence of safety gathered over decades nor exercising any cautionary judgement of any kind.

    In fact, they're following the same kind of accelerated and untested path beaten by Monsanto with GMO crops. The many horrors that GMOs have introduced are no longer a secret. Nor is the widespread lobbying and corruption that led to it a secret anymore.

    Although 3-party IVF is not the same thing as GMO crops, nevertheless it is a form of genetic manipulation and it produces new gene combinations. Our level of understanding of the effects of genetic engineering is far too primitive to be doing experiments on humans at this stage. We can't even do it safely with much simpler organisms, and we have failed dismally to predict how they interact with other life in the biosphere of which are are part.

    This is unjustified wishful thinking about our level of scientific competence and experience. The human population should not be treated as a test tube. This is an area where caution is a very good thing, and accepting commercial advice is very unwise.

  16. Sensational headlines: A little perspective here. by Guppy · · Score: 5, Informative

    How many chromosones to bake up a new baby?

    What the article fails to mention, is that the mitochondrial genome contributed by the "3rd parent" is about 16,600 bp in size, or less than 0.00052% of the total human genome.

  17. Slippery slope? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    Does anybody have a plausible guess about what, exactly, the 'slippery slope' is supposed to be leading ominously and inevitably toward?

    Not all 'slippery slope' arguments are nonsense, by any means; but I'd be a lot more convinced by this one if I had some idea about the alleged topography of the area around the slope. Are there monkey-men at the bottom? clone Hitler armies? The kwisatz haderach?

  18. Midi-chlorians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Mitochondria are the tiny, biological 'power stations' that give the body energy."

    Aren't those called Midi-chlorians?

    1. Re:Midi-chlorians? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      That's in a galaxy far, far away. Life here evolved independently.

    2. Re:Midi-chlorians? by xstonedogx · · Score: 1

      There are those who say life here began out there.

  19. Replacing mitochondria by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Informative

    The reason is that the nucleus of a cell is relatively huge. Mitochondria are 'almost' independent living cells wholly contained within our cells, and each has it's own DNA. But they're small compared to the nucleus.

    Roughly speaking, it'd be like the difference between removing the pit of a cherry vs trying to remove every seed out of a watermelon the size of a cherry.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Replacing mitochondria by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Roughly speaking, it'd be like the difference between removing the pit of a cherry vs trying to remove every seed out of a watermelon the size of a cherry.

      Hmm... once more please, with cars instead of fruit?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Replacing mitochondria by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      In one case it's like taking the radio from a car and fitting it to another one. In the other it's like building a new car around the radio.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Replacing mitochondria by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Hmm...

      One's replacing the program chip in the car, the other is converting it from gasoline to diesel. ;)

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  20. You missed one. by Medievalist · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's shameful to waste resources on this when the same money could've been used to help increase the adoption rate and to sponsor adoptions. There are children already alive who need parents, no need to make more.

    I just don't understand these poor sad people who are so self-obsessed that they think they can only love a child that carries their own DNA.

    1. Re:You missed one. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The adoption rate is just fine: for healthy babies.

      Basically *healthy* *babies* basically always get adopted and there is actually a very long waiting list for them.

      Drug addicted babies aren't nearly so popular. The thing is a baby suffering from foetal alcohol syndrome is basically fucked. The chances are (and the chances are high) that they will end up as an alcoholic later in life, and no amount of perental help will prevent it. Likewise they are likely to have serious behavioural problems.

      The prognosis for other drugs is similar.

      I can see why people don't want to let themselves in for a lifetime of pain in that regard.

      And again, adopting older kids is fraught with much more serious problems for a variety of reasons.

      It's not the DNA thing it's that people want a child they can bring up from the beginning. And I can see why.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:You missed one. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you've posted is bullshit FUD, so I'm not going to quote it.

      I adopted a so-called "crack baby" 14 years ago. She's a straight-A student today, with no more problems or issues than any other teenage girl; a beautiful, self-confident and capable human being.

      The shit you posted is self-serving rationalizations, based on numbers instead not on any real, actual person you ever considered adopting - most likely you aren't ever going to consider that, and you're looking for excuses.

      But anybody who can only love a healthy baby is a piece of shit anyway. I guess while you were rationalizing your bigotry you didn't bother looking up how likely it is that any baby you had "naturally" would be "fraught with serious problems... ...for a variety of reasons".

      In the real world, it's far more dangerous to a woman to bear a child than to adopt one. And the likelihood of a baby that will have serious health problems is non-zero. So stop being such a coward - you can't avoid risk simply by abandoning tens of thousands of children.

  21. And baby makes... four by PuddleBoy · · Score: 1

    I guess I'm still stuck asking why?

    OK, so you've had your genome sequenced (or whatever) and determined there might be a problem. Isn't that nature's way of saying 'sit this one out'?

    Rather than encourage society to devote so many resources to finding new ways to let you make a baby, how about adopting? There are soooo many deserving children out there who are aching for a home. They already exist - they already have the need.

    Don't fiddle with nature - do the simpler thing and bring an existing child into your life.

  22. Define defect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    First you have to define "defect", after all "defects" are what made us here today, (i'am not disagreeing with your main point btw.) perfection is a variable not a static

  23. Re:Sensational headlines: A little perspective her by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the mitochondrial genome contributed by the "3rd parent" is about 16,600 bp in size, or less than 0.00052% of the total human genome.

    So? All it takes is a single gene to produce an adverse effect because existing mechanisms provide no negative feedback for it.

  24. Big deal by Zynder · · Score: 1

    So what? We all know the mitochondria are what instill the powers of the Force so IMHO they are the most important 0.00052%!

  25. Arghhh! by ITMagic · · Score: 1

    Stop this - RIGHT NOW.

    Mitochondria do not have DNA, therefore the UK is not creating babies using the DNA from three people.

    Mitochondria are being transferred whole, and contain RNA.

    I know this is slashdot, and we must expect inaccurate reporting of scientific and technical subjects - but really...

    1. Re:Arghhh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

  26. Off-Topic by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

    Off-Topic much.

    --
    Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
  27. i can't be the only one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To read that as IMF. I thought the whole point was secrecy. What about the NOC list.

  28. Antichrist ahoy! by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

    Great, now all the idiots who treat the LaHaye/Jenkins literary trainwreck Left Behind like it was scripture are going to pitch a fit, because there the antichrist is the result of genetic engineering to combine sperm cells of two gay lovers which is then used to artificially inseminate a woman.

  29. Re:Sensational headlines: A little perspective her by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While we are at it, why not include Monsanto's RoundUp-ready gene so it will survive the silent spring.