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More Details Emerge On How the US Is Bugging Its European Allies
dryriver writes with this excerpt from the Guardian: "U.S. intelligence services are spying on the European Union mission in New York and its embassy in Washington, according to the latest top secret U.S. National Security Agency documents leaked by the whistleblower Edward Snowden. One document lists 38 embassies and missions, describing them as 'targets.' It details an extraordinary range of spying methods used against each target, from bugs implanted in electronic communications gear to taps into cables to the collection of transmissions with specialised antennae. Along with traditional ideological adversaries and sensitive Middle Eastern countries, the list of targets includes the E.U. missions and the French, Italian and Greek embassies, as well as a number of other American allies, including Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey. ... One of the bugging methods mentioned is codenamed Dropmire, which, according to a 2007 document, is 'implanted on the Cryptofax at the E.U. embassy, DC' – an apparent reference to a bug placed in a commercially available encrypted fax machine used at the mission. The NSA documents note the machine is used to send cables back to foreign affairs ministries in European capitals."
There is a difference between doing intelligence work and outright bugging and performing illegal surveillance.
You clearly don't know what that difference is and I feel sorry for you.
We know countries spy on each other for political capital and leverage, even allies. They embarrass leaders they don't like with smears and leaks. The give opposition leaders they do like, intel and tips. Trying to influence elections, trying to learn trade secret that aid their corps.
It's a nasty game, but it's a known game.
So WTF is GCHQ doing, giving NSA a tap on 300 lines into Britain, which almost certainly contains information on British people, companies and politics?
Which side are you on there in GCHQ?
It also doesn't support the 'Snowden is evil' image either. Afterall he is only reporting what any 'responsible' government already knew and did......
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Someone doesn't realize that embassies are foreign soil. You clearly are assuming that what they are doing is illegal and not sanctioned under national security. See, you are just making an ass out of yourself and YOU KNOW IT or you wouldn't be posting as an anonymous coward.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
So how does this relate to "war on terrorism"? This is plain and simple espionage, most probably for economic gain.
"Friends spying on friends" is not something new and unusual, despite what at least 1 German politician implied. The US has arrested Israeli spies in decades past. Israel has arrested US spies. It may be deplorable, but it's universal. Raising a ruckus about it is just a sideshow.
Snowden apparently originally thought that this was part of his job and was OK with it. What allegedly turned him was when he realized that a lot of what he was doing was unrelated to spying on other nations, other nationals and terrorists, but was spying on US citizens even when there was absolutely no reason to think they were doing anything worth spying on.
Most intelligence work is illegal by definition. The only question is whether the work is whether the US intelligence work breaks US laws. I envy your fairy tale worldview, but in the real world things work differently.
Everything the US has been accusing China of doing like sticking backdoors in communications equipment, the US has been doing it it's allies?
So much for don't buy Chinese, sounds like it's more risky to buy US equipment because at least there's now some hard evidence that US equipment contains backdoors, with China it was all just unproven speculation.
They do the same things.
Oh, really? Everybody's doing that? Well, perhaps the USSR did, but do you honestly believe that close Western allies of the US are systematically bugging US embassies and spying on US politicians on a massive scale?
You know, if somebody found out that the US bugged one fax machine of their European allies, you'd be right - it would be swept under the carpet and handled through diplomatic channels. But we're talking about absolutely massive, persistent spying on close allies.
I can understand if the US spies on China and vice versa, and many of the discoveries in this areas is handled via side channels (e.g. swaping intelligence agence), but it's hard to understand why the US needs to massively spy on European administration to obtain more information about the latest regulation for the shapes of bananas or how much earth may be on potatoes.
I think we can all distinguish between spying on one's own citizens and spying on foreigners, in particular in foreign lands. That of course includes governments. Normally this kind of stuff stays under the radar, but this is not the first time it has happened. Israel has been caught quite a few times spying on the US and running agents to further their own national interests. France has a long history of doing corporate espionage on behalf of their own industries. The Brits have always had their fingers in everything.
Spying isn't just about military stuff. It is often about economics and politics and knowing what others are planning and doing (vs what they might say publicly).
I just cannot believe it! Countries around the world spy on each other?? What a remarkable revelation, who would'a thought?. Perhaps next we'll find out that corporations act in their greedy self interest or that middle school girls are catty. Thank you Edward Snowden for making the f*ing obvious even more obvious!
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.
That's beside the point though, because I also believe two wrongs don't make a right. I wish my government still felt that way, too.
Whether the US should take the moral high road or dive into the muck like "just another country" is a debate that goes back to the founding of the Republic. It looks like it's finally been settled. :-(
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
So you think that there aren't going to be any consequences for this? Fool.
With great power comes great responsibility, but you sound more like the local schoolyard bully - and that's exactly how the US has been coming across for years. Looks like the rest of the world finally figured out who they are dealing with.
For one thing, other courties don't have 5 million people cleared to handle top secret material. That makes the chances of a leak smaller. For another, related, thing, those countries don't have a security apparatus as creepily and absurdly extensive as the US does, so the few involved don't feel a strong need to leak.
Also, other countries see this as a human rights issue that involves everybody instead of something that only becomes an issue when it affects their own citizens.
That doesn't excuse it.
The business I conduct in my country in the EU is of zero import to the US.
I suspect that True Patriots interpret "national security" to include economic hegemony.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
do you honestly believe that close Western allies of the US are systematically bugging US embassies and spying on US politicians on a massive scale
I don't know if they're doing it systematically because there haven't been any European Snowdens lately. It certainly wouldn't shock me if it was true. There have been plenty of cases of allies bugging each other, including for business and commercial reasons.
...there is a possibility that Snowden may be a "false flag" to discredit leakers. I'm not saying he is or isn't, but Naomi Wolf says it better than me - she's a writer and journalist with a proven record on whistleblower and civil rights issues... WELL worth looking up for End of America alone).
Snowden may very well be the real deal... but it's just worth thinking a step ahead and not balancing the foundations on him or any one person. These issues are much bigger than any single entity anyway... the problems are systemic. We need to act, and act positively despite the potential for political tricks.
The resulting outrage will be highly amusing. Even more so when other agencies like the CIA find *they're* being monitored.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Achievement unlocked: you've unmasked your first NSA plant.
I'm a staunch supporter of Snowden's revealing how the NSA was violating the 4th Amendment, but it's a shame that he's now revealing stuff like this. It will weaken the outrage over the US government wiping its ass w/ the Bill of Rights, because people will say that now he is endangering national security by revealing this information. He is shooting himself in the foot. TPTB will also have more justification for going after him. Having access to secret information beyond what is necessary for making his original case about spying on US citizens makes him less secure, not more. It also lessens the sympathy he'll get from Americans.
P.S. The latest "revelations" don't shock me, I doubt they shock TPTB in other countries, and the only effect on foreign relations will be the usual faux outrage. It doesn't bother me that the NSA is doing this, in fact I'd be more upset (or at least surprised) if they weren't. I also don't think it will do much if anything to harm national security, but he's still playing it wrong.
http://boingboing.net/2013/07/01/glenn-greenwald-gives-a-public.html
Glenn says they have a document from the NSA. They're now can record 1 billion cell phone calls per day.
You cannot elect a President if General Alexander can go through the candidates and pick out any that he doesn't like and leak their phone calls. You cannot have a democracy in that world.
We cannot elect a Prime Minister if General Alexander can leak his phone calls and monitor his communications. General Alexander will be able to pick and choose our elected officials by selectively smearing.
You cannot have a democracy in that world.
GCHQ, you have a job, and part of that job is to protect Brits from foreign powers spying on them.
but it's hard to understand why the US needs to massively spy on European administration to obtain more information about the latest regulation for the shapes of bananas or how much earth may be on potatoes.
Funny you should mention food regulation. The US has a huge problem with EU regulation of food. GMO foods have to be clearly labelled and most if not all US beef is banned within the EU because over here treating cattle with growth hormone is a serious crime and the resulting meat is not tolerated to enter the food chain, but this is standard practice in the US. There are huge economic interests involved and as Cablegate has shown, the US government is directly involved in putting pressure on EU states to further those interests. Knowing the thoughts of EU negotiators would give an unfair advantage.
I think this puts it into perspective. Still do not think it is right. Just shows how long they have been doing this.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/how-a-30-year-old-lawyer-exposed-nsa-mass-surveillance-of-americans-in-1975/
tl;dr version ... going on since at least 1950. Under different program names. All 'just ended recently'.
This has been going on a LONG time. 9/11 was just an excuse to make it legal and retroactive immunity in 2008. Some companies saw it as their duty to help the NSA. Others lawyered up. Others had a 'yeah the other guys do it too' attitude.
I doubt they will be all that outraged. They singed it into law letting them do it.
Quoting the PP in full because I hate moderators turning into political censors. -1 is for trolls and flamebait, not posters whose opinions you disagree with. FWIW I completely disagree w/ the PP, but their comment is a legitimate part of this debate.
Those countries are probably spying on us as well. And our government has a responsibility to know what other governments are doing, to the best of our abilities.
That said, it shows how much damage Snowden has done to publicly reveal this undoubtedly top secret information. He's a traitor.
P.S. The ultimate irony is if this comment gets modded down from its original +2, but it wouldn't be the first time a comment like this has been. Not only do some mods like to act as political censors, they don't like being called on it.
I doubt they will be all that outraged. They singed it into law letting them do it.
from http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/jesselyn-radack-points-out-problem-fi -
STEPHANOPOULOS: But these surveillance programs, as the president has pointed out, were passed by the Congress, are overseen by a court.
RADACK: Well, both of those are incorrect. Congress has not been fully informed. Only the--
STEPHANOPOULOS: They passed the laws, there is oversight, or there is (inaudible).
RADACK: OK, but there is a secret interpretation of Section 215 of the Patriot Act, which nobody knows, except for the Intel Committee of Congress, and even they say that they think most Americans would be appalled by that. And to say that it’s been approved by the courts is a misnomer, because it gives the impression that federal courts have approved this, when in reality, it’s the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has rubber-stamped every single--
STEPHANOPOULOS: Which is a federal court.
RADACK: No, it is a secret court set up at the Justice Department that has federal judges on it. But last year, it approved 2,000 out of 2,000 applications. They hear only the government’s side, and they have never -- they have rejected an application one time since 1978.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
..to this lately, and most of them were in the "We are big, bad, mean motherfuckers so of course we do this and if you don't like it go fuck yourself or we nuke you" (paraphrased, not literally uttered.. even though nuclear weapons HAVE been mentioned once or twice in the discussion.. I think it was on gizmodo or some site like that..)
Guys, just turn around the situation and it would be China doing the same in the US.. wouldn't your outcry be as big as ours (German here), maybe even bigger?
Just because you have the biggest guns doesn't mean laws are not for you anymore, just as a reminder..
Also, having the biggest Aircraft Carrier in the block means nothing, if you actually would take on an opponent that can fight back.. (I've read up on a lot of NATO maneuvers where even our old diesel subs blatantly sunk US carriers and the commanders didn't even believe the sub commanders that they were there, until they surfaced like 500 feet away from the carrier in full broadside view of the torpedo tubes..)
Really, if you ask me, as a German with a strong national pride myself, the only political answer to this would be simple (and something our corrupt and incompetent government would NEVER do..): close all US bases on German soil, including Ramstein etc., remove every single American non-civilian personell from the country immediately..
and while we're at it consider if this constitutes an "armed" (as in cyber-warfare) attack against Germany (and our Allies) as based on NATO Article 5 (Casus foederis).
Also, leaving NATO would be another option.
Whether the US should take the moral high road or dive into the muck like "just another country" is a debate that goes back to the founding of the Republic. It looks like it's finally been settled. :-(
You're kidding, right? I have a big problem w/ the US invading countries under false pretenses and for utterly indefensible reasons. This spying on allies stuff just means we aren't boy scouts. I'm going to be outraged at least until my next cup of coffee.
It's only illegal if it is against the law... You do realize that espionage is ALWAYS illegal in the country being spied on right? That doesn't make it illegal in the country doing the spying. It makes it a valid portion of the government's job. Spying has been a part of international relations since, well, when did people first make countries again? It isn't illegal and it isn't going to change any time soon. It's certainly not good for relations when it gets exposed, but everyone really is doing it. If you think that this is A) news or B) a valid leak that has any possible purpose than to hurt the US, then you are sadly ignorant of the realities of the intelligence community for the last forever.
AJ Henderson
It was a rhododendron, as I recall.
But it's more fun to bash the US for everything that happens, because obviously, the US is always wrong and everybody else is always right.
Heroes don't run when they know they're 100% right.
Spoken like a true armchair hero. More importantly, this isn't about Snowden as a superhero. Look, it's a bird, it's a plane, no it's Super Snowden! In fact this isn't about Snowden at all, but about what he's released. Trying to turn this into a debate about Snowden is a person as a ridiculous distraction.
Masturbating in front of the homeless? I have never done that nor have I seen anybody do so. In fact, doing that would lead one to be registered as a sex offender.
Not really, that's a construct that you probably picked up from Hollywood propaganda.
The truth is that things are rarely if ever that clear cut. Heroes in things like this tend to try to avoid being sent to prison as being in prison makes it easy for the government to stop them from making a scene. Whereas a very visible fight to get Snowden extradited back to the US has brought a ton of extra attention to the problem that he highlighted with the leak.
As someone who posts as AC on a regular basis out of laziness, I can safely say I'm just as willing to make a fool of myself with my pseudonym as I am as an AC. Your argument is flawed.
Long hair is puny. Hulk is strongest one there is!
Agreed. I think that Snowden hurts his own credibility and his self-professed cause by spilling out all the details of United States espionage activities overseas. Had Snowden had a compelling whistleblower case by simply reporting on US domestic spying; many would view him as a patriot (as he self-proclaimed) for reporting on these abuses. However, muddies the water tremendously, I would even argue crosses the line, by providing details of US intelligence activities overseas, not just to the European Union but also to the Chinese and the Russians. Those actions directly harming his home country, undermining American intelligence activities against nations that have comprehensive espionage programs targeted at the United States (this includes European nations).
I can say this for Germany, but it probably applies to any sane Government. The BND does intelligence gathering that any private individual could, such as areal photos and driving by installations. Their main effort is centered around inferring information from what is "publicly" available. To actually infiltrate installations, the country in question must be at war with Germany.
The US has always cheeped me out. The level of paranoia is astonishing and I think it is a mere wonder that we came out of the cold war without any major incident.
So many people think this spying is primarily for military and security reasons but the EU is first of all an economic pact, the EU doesn't even have a joint military and the major EU powers are through NATO already allied with the US.
By consequence the spying on the EU is for economic reasons.
In the past there have been very suspicious deals where for example in China an Airbus contract was at last minute handed to Boeing, we don't need more of this crap were government organisations are doing dirty legwork for corporation.
The upcoming Free Trade negotiations are obviously a nice target, the US dearly wants to know how far they can push the EU in their own direction by exploiting divisions among the EU members, I'm afraid the US has now shot themselves in both feet.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
As you can see their very few terroristic attacks to Russia or china.
Not much terrorism in Russia or China? You're kidding, right? Next you'll add India and the UK to the list.
After 4 decades on this planet it still never ceases to surprise me that "everyone does it" or "everyone else is just as bad" still seems like a logical defense to some people.
Would raping little girls be okay if more people did it? If only it were more popular then none of us would have to feel bad about being a total piece of shit. The kind of person who does stuff like that does it because they don't care about the little girl that they are going to hurt or even kill. That other person, that other consciousness means nothing to them. Only their narrow interests matter. Sound familiar?
Pathological liars of all sorts are always adamant about how no one else is any different. "Everyone lies", they say. Dishonest salesmen and cops are the same. They defend their bad behavior by saying that everyone else is just as bad. Uh huh. As soon as I hear someone say that sort of thing I immediately know not to trust them or believe a word they say. And I'll keep a close eye on my wallet and all my other possessions as well. There's a good chance they lack any sense of empathy, of right or wrong: what we call a conscience.
Well I've got news for some of you. Not everyone will lie and steal even from their so called friends whenever they think they can get away with it. I have known a few pathological liars in my life and as soon as I discovered who and what they really were I broke off any contact with them. Period.
I wouldn't be friends with someone who planted bugs in my home. In fact I would consider them the opposite of friends. They wouldn't be welcome anywhere near my home ever again. It would be pretty clear that their intentions were not good. If I were one of the countries mentioned in these leaks I would immediately break off all diplomatic relations with the US. I mean, what the fuck is the point when it's obvious you are being treated in a manner indistinguishable from how one treats an enemy? At the very least it would seem sensible to strip search and cavity search anyone carrying a US passport who wants to enter or leave an embassy/consulate or any other sensitive location. Are you quasi-sociopaths starting to see the problem now?
And how does one draw the line between just being naughty and an act of outright war? Seems like that line could be drawn very finely indeed. If in our eavesdropping we discover that a foreign diplomat holds beliefs that seem inimical to our interests would it be okay to assassinate them? How about just fucking up their life so badly that they choose to quit their jobs? Maybe infecting one of their children with HIV for instance? After all, what is the point of making so much effort to gather all that intelligence data if we do not use it to further our interests? Isn't that what this is all about? Our interests? Aside from "everyone else is doing it", that is the justification for this behavior is it not? Of course it couldn't possibly be in our interest to treat our allies like we ourselves would want to be treated: with respect and honesty. No. So much better to prepare for outright war even with such highly unlikely foes as, say, Canada.
Espionage is fine when you are in a shooting war with someone and it's tolerable when it seems that a shooting war is imminent, but it is neither honorable nor civilized behavior. Not even if you have proof that the other side is doing the same to you, which I don't think any of you currently have by the way.
I'm sorry, but just assuming that everyone else is just as amoral and dishonest and untrustworthy and two-faced and is also treating us in a way that is indistinguishable from an enemy is not sufficient. Not if we want to be seen as the good guys. Clearly any such pretense would be laughable now. The enemy is us. We are the baddies.
Even if we knew with absolute 100% certainty that all of the people we were bugging were bugging us back just as successfully the old two wrongs don't make a right rule still applies. If we discovered that one of our allies were systematically raping our female diplomats would we respond in kind? I would certainly hope not.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Evil paranoid people who play underhanded always believe that others do exactly the same as they do.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
This has to be a troll. But, considering our leaders ... I'm not so sure.
Anyway, China will eventually stop buying our bonds. Then we're done. Google about Egypt, the Suez Canal, Great Britain, and how Eisenhower ended a war in Egypt before it really got rolling by telling the Brits he'd sell off the British bonds the US held which would devalue the pound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis#Financial_pressure
When you owe lots and lots of money, someone has you by the balls no matter how big you are.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
What really irks me is shit like this: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19166043-obama-not-scrambling-jets-to-get-nsa-leaker-snowden Whereby we now have US Trade Representatives considering revoking trade privileges of an entire country (Ecuador) because the administration has a personal vendetta against Snowden. It is really sickening what our government is willing to do to cover its own ass.
This is like a newspaper cartoon series with the artist getting better each week.
You Americans are sooooooo screwed. And it was about time too. Perhaps you'll learn to pay attention when you vote now. There are more than two choices you know.
You really don't see the trajectory of this, do you? I'm not sure what country you're from, but it's a safe bet that the people responsible for bringing this attempted panopticon into being are coming for you too. This isn't about any nation state. It's about a supra-national elite running the world for their own power and gain. It's not a conspiracy, it's the recognition of shared interests. It would be irrational for the ultra-rich to not coordinate to ensure their continued preeminence. Unless you are a billionaire, or were an invitee at the last Bilderburg meeting, what is being done is not for your benefit.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Angela Merkel comes off looking like a real asshole, IMO. When it came out that the US was spying on US and German citizens, she defended it as necessary for the war on terror. Then she finds out we're spying on her fellow oligarchs and all of a sudden it's an unjustifiable violation of trust.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Yes. I've read elsewhere that the French are particularly zealous about spying on businessmen from the US.
Here's an example:
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930418&slug=1696416
No offense to you, but the person you are quoting, "RADACK," is a nitwit. The FISA court is a federal court that deals with secret material, not a secret court. Issuing search warrants is not an adversarial process to begin with, and wouldn't be at any other court. There is more.
Secret Court's Oversight Gets Scrutiny
Michael Mukasey, who was attorney general under President George W. Bush, said in an interview that the lack of rejections by the FISA court doesn't mean the court is a rubber stamp. He notes the court sometimes modifies orders and that the Justice Department's national-security division is careful about the applications it presents to the court.
Of 1,856 FISA applications the Justice Department made in 2012, the court denied none but modified 40, the Justice Department reported.
Timothy Edgar, who was a top lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, said he believed the FISA court was a rubber stamp until he saw the process firsthand when he became a senior civil-liberties official in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence in 2006. "It's definitely not a rubber stamp," he said in an interview Sunday. "On a very superficial level, they tend to approve pretty much everything that comes before them. They do meet in secret. It's just more complicated than that."
The reason so many orders are approved, he said, is that the Justice Department office that manages the process vets the applications rigorously. The lawyers there see themselves not as government advocates so much as neutral arbiters of the law between the executive branch and the courts, he said, so getting the order approved by the Justice Department lawyers is perhaps the biggest hurdle to approval. "The culture of that office is very reluctant to get a denial," he said.-- more
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
As a Citizen of the USA, I believe we DO need a swift kick in the balls from the rest of the world. The Citizens need to take part in this ball-crushing event too. The beast is too wild and needs to be tamed.
It's only illegal if it is against the law... You do realize that espionage is ALWAYS illegal in the country being spied on right? That doesn't make it illegal in the country doing the spying.
One of Russia's replies to the USA's request to extradite Snowden was something along the lines of
'In Russia, it's not a crime to spy on the USA'
The theory being that extradition should only apply to actions that are also a crime in the foreign country.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
It just strikes to me as naive to use Windows and Intel hardware to store state secrets. Or using Israeli firewalls (Checkpoint) China got it right with Red Flag Linux and Loongson.