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Snowden Offered Asylum By Venezuelan President
First time accepted submitter aBaldrich writes "Edward Snowden was offered 'humanitarian asylum' by Nicolás Maduro, the president of Venezuela. The country's official news agency reports (original Spanish, Google translation) that the decision was taken after a meeting of the presidents of Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Suriname, Uruguay and Venezuela. Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European countries, and that he is acting 'on behalf of the dignity of the Americas.'"
The Guardian confirms.
Now the question is how will he get there? There is no direct flights from Moscow. Hell, some countries even denied Bolivian presidents airspace when they thought Snowden was on the plane.
Cuba Flight 455 blown up, 78 people killed, Posada Carriles (who, BTW, was trained by the CIA at Fort Benning) escaped Venezuela to the US, and currently lives in Miami after the US refused Venezuelan extradition, on the grounds that he could be tortured if extradited. (Judges generally don't do irony.) He was tried, and acquitted, in the US for entering the country illegally, in the course of the trial his lawyers made the interesting statement that ""The Defendant's CIA relationship, stemming from his work against the Castro regime through his anti-communist activities in Venezuela and Central America, are relevant and admissible to his defense."
Although you will find barely a mention of the connection in the English language press, Juan Cole connects the dots.
Little tip to Obama: this could be a solution for your prison overcrowding problems. Dump them on these third rate socialist shit holes. Just make sure you tag each criminal as enemy of the USA, and they will lap up anything you throw at them. Even if you pay for air fare you win. Try it.
The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime. Nice joke, though.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Slightly dated now that el Presedente Chávez has passed on, but I doubt much has changed since. I'm sure Snowden will be happy if he makes it there, although he should probably bring toilet paper with him.
Venezuela toilet paper shortage sends ordinary lives around the bend - 23 May 2013
Scarcity of toilet rolls seen as part of 'general malaise' in which Venezuelans have to use guile during shortage in many staples
Venezuela crackdown deemed worst in years
Chavez Wasn't Just a Zany Buffoon, He Was an Oppressive Autocrat - Mar 5 2013
Like an old-style dictator, he treated the state as his personal plaything but, unlike one, his power rested not on violence but on genuine popular affection. Venezuela's history since 1999 has been the story of that contradiction playing itself out across the lives of 29 million people.
Chávez's insistence on absolute submission from his supporters paved the way for the rise of an over-the-top cult of personality. As questioning any presidential directive was a sure career-ender for his followers, the upper reaches of his government came to be dominated by yes-men. Further down the food chain, too, extravagant displays of personal loyalty were required from every person in every nook and cranny of Venezuela's massive and fast-growing state apparatus, with state-owned factory workers required to attend rallies and clerical personnel fully expected to donate part of their salaries to the ruling party.
Instead of a police state, Chávez built a propaganda state, one that churned out slogan after slogan stressing the intense, personal, near-mystical bond between him and his followers. . .
Finding no resistance, Chávez gave free rein to his creative streak. He changed the country's official name, shifted its time zone by half-an-hour on a whim and added an extra star to the flag. At one point, he ordered the National Coat of Arms changed on his then 9-year-old daughter's suggestion. When an opposition satirist responded by publishing an Open Letter to the First Daughter -- reasoning that if she was now making public policy, people had a right to address her -- Chávez had the paper that printed the letter fined for violating a child's privacy.
Venezuela - 2013 Index of Economic Freedom
In 1999, Hugo Chávez won the presidency, vanquished the traditional party system, and launched his Bolivarian Revolution aimed at “Socialism for the 21st Century.” Chávez styles himself the leader of Latin America’s anti–free market forces and has made alliances with China, Cuba, Russia, and rogue states like Iran. He has persecuted his political adversaries and critics, restricted media freedom, undermined the rule of law and property rights, militarized the government, and tried to destabilize neighboring Colombia. The national assembly, which he controls, passed a 2009 constitutional amendment allowing him to seek yet another presidential term, and he won re-election in October 2012. Venezuela has Latin America’s highest inflation rate (currently nearly 30 percent); chronic electricity, food, and housing shortages; and skyrocketing crime rates.
The judiciary is dysfunctional and completely controlled by the executive. Politically inconvenient contracts are abrogated, and the legal system discriminates against or in favor of investors from certain foreign countries. The government expropriates land and other private holdings across the economy arbitrarily and without compensation. Corruption, exacerbated by cronyism and
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The kind of disruptive left-wing revolution you imagine, like conservative government as well, tends to increase corruption in government.
So, by definition, when the American finally get tired of the corruption in government, they'll start voting for people who stand for lower taxes and less government powers. It's already starting to happen at the state level.
Don't bet on it. If Russia decides it seriously wants to help, then they'll never even know he's left until he's in Venezuela. As of *right now*, nobody has seen Snowden since he got to Moscow. In fact, nobody has seen him in Moscow at all. Russia claims he's holed up in Sheremetyevo Airport, but nobody has seen him there. Nobody saw him get off the flight from Hong Kong. Is he still in Moscow? Was he ever in Moscow at all? I wouldn't take bets.
After exposing massive metadata-based surveillance by his government, he might have to take asylum in a repressive country that routinely has conversations between opposition politicians recorded, edited, manipulated and shown on state-owned TV. That is, excluding the ones that had to flee or were jailed on bogus charges. The bitter irony cannot be missed.
This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
Won't happen. If they admit its wrong now then they admit Obama is bad. Instead you will hear everyone say, "it doesn't matter who is in charge it will be just as bad". The American people will not hold Obama or any of his people accountable for anything.
Holder - Fast and furious, lying to Congress 3 times about it - pass
Rice - Bengazi attack because of a film, lied to American public and UN - pass (with promotion)
IRS targeting citizens - FBI won't even begin an investigation - pass
Clapper - lied under oath to Congress - pass
Geitner - Failed to pay income taxes - pass (put in charge of IRS)
Clinton - Ignored requests for extra ambassador security - pass (Will get next DNC nomination)
Some of the above involves killing of hundreds of citizens and they haven't been held accountable in a singe case. Every time I've heard any of it brought up the only response I've heard is "But Bush". They will NEVER hold Obama or any of his people accountable, no matter what he does.
The reality is that Chavez did more for social conditions in his country than any other president in living memory. USA hated him viciously because of his oil-based power in OPEC, plus his aversion to letting them control the destiny of Venezuela and from there the rest of latinamerica. And that's pretty much it.
You're pretty transparent.
That would be a direct act of war - intercepting a foreign flag airliner in international airspace.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European Countries
I hope that should read "Maduro denounced an attempt at 'colonizing' by several European Countries,"
From the Huffington Post
"The European people have seen the cowardice and the weakness of their governments, which now look like colonies of the United States," the Venezuelan president said.
I've come to the conclusion that Putin and Obama have reached some kind of deal. Putin is getting something he wants in exchange for agreeing to neither overtly help Snowden to get to another country nor requiring that Russia hand him over directly to US authorities. I have believed for years that George W. Bush botched the relationship between the US and Russia by being unable to understand the concept of quid pro quo. See, Bush believed that people should just do the right thing because it was right, not because they were going to get anything in return. This is a big part of why Poland, Bulgaria and Ukraine quickly jumped in to provide troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. They thought they were going to get visa free US travel in exchange. They pulled out when they realized that Bush was literally incapable of understanding that he owed them something in return. Putin somehow got burned by this too, although I have no idea what he wanted, and he has not forgotten it. Russia isn't going to provide any travel docs to Snowden, offer him asylum in Russia or hand him over to the USA. Venezuela won't send a ship because it fears that the US would just board it or maybe even sink it in international waters. My guess is that Venezuela will offer him a travel document that the Russians will accept, at which point they'll casually mention to their American friends "Oh by the way, Snowden is on flight XXX bound for Venezuela. Here's the flight path." and the US may plan an interception over international waters once it leaves European airspace. The Russians will then claim publicly that they are shocked, yes shocked, at this violation of international air space, which provides the plausible deniability they need.
Um, no. The real solution is dismantling for-profit prison industry in the US. Should you end war on drugs, they'll lobby for jailing people for other trivial "offences" like being illegal immigrant or publishing bad jokes on Facebook. Oh, wait ...
More than likely there is no need to move to "indulge" in cannibalism.
Victim of cannibal agreed to be eaten
I don't think that the Temperance movement believed that it would stop all alcohol consumption, but that it would significantly decrease it. And they were right. Not only that, once prohibition was lifted, per-capita alcohol consumption took about 40 years to reach its previous level. The decrease in alcohol consumption had a number of impacts on other public health issues.
Did Prohibition Really Work? Alcohol Prohibition as a Public Health Innovation
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You say that as if it were some sort of horrible solution or unprecedented. Historically, emigration has been a major safety valve, both for the unjustly accused and persecuted to save themselves, and for nations to rid themselves of people that didn't fit in. All European nations got through the last few hundred years that way.
Regardless of what you may think of Snowden, the fact that a non-violent, educated, and skilled guy has no place to go in the world really is a profound change in how the world works, and I don't think it's a good one.
Revolutions don't happen if the government know every step of anything remotely looking as leader for them, they even had plans for killing the Occupy movement key figures (and other approachs). Reelected Bush, reelected Obama, even seeing in which direction were going both, the american people jailed themselves and throwed away the key. And unfortunately were the only ones that could had done something.
This is interesting news, because I had heard, from a reliable source, that when Snowden inquired of his attorney where on earth he could best be assured freedom from prosecution under U.S. law, the lawyer had recommended Wall Street.
Ignorance. come on, the whole world jokes about how ignorant Americans are. An American couldn't "get it." No need for discussion and Americans are nearly hopeless to talk to about it, they are unjustifiably overconfident or dismissive on the issue. The Press is nearly dead... a farce. Good education is undermined and attacked (it's always easy to find something to complain about to justify attacking the parts that WORK. Critical Thinking, dead. Civics, dead. Creative Thinking, dead. School psychologist, gone..how dare they blame parents! Math test scores were too low to allow those other subjects...)
American culture has been promoting cowardice for generations now. Fear is the lowest common denominator for humans and it is not just exploited for politics - our modern marketing exploits it, our entertainment as well. The learned behaviors on how to respond to fear have been influenced as well. Americans are less happy and more stressed due to the impact of the commercial culture thrust upon them (which also has them praising it because it also raises us to love it.) IT IS A CULTURE OF FEAR - just spend some time here observing (not that these things are not being exporter abroad... they are. the UK does a bang up job of it.) The downside to having no shared cultural roots is that the population is easier to experiment on. As far as I'm concerned the only good thing about tradition is the temporary firewall it provides.
Propaganda is the source of the huge amount of working control over the masses today. America is home to some of the best of it, even Hitler got a lot of his research material from America. It was American propagandists post WW2 that renamed their new profession: Public Relations. Marketing and Advertizing being offshoots, applying the same techniques... and new ones. The military may weaponize all science but PR weaponizes all social science... and quickly makes it publicly available as a service to anybody with money.
American working poor live well enough; the middle class is happy enough during their decades of decline that it is not enough to get off their addictions long enough to do anything about it. The primary one being consumerism, the main tool behind it all: television.
Also, try arguing with an American in person. Observe the others around you as well. It is almost like you were in a fight, the unpleasantness to the viewers and the participants. See how disagreement is so contentious and how you will be judged and grudges formed simply by your disagreement. The people are WIMPS -- except in New York where everybody being rude has somewhat shielded them. Why learn the actual NEWS when it is so upsetting and depressing?? Turn on GOP TV and hear what "you" want to hear...(aka Fox News - BTW, the project name was GOP TV.) Personalization has led to wall gardens that /. people hate so much-- like the phones, it's more of an invisible fence that you don't mind being restricted to... even enjoying your confinement...
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
That aircraft was shot down in error, not deliberately (well, the error was in identifying it as a threat - the shootdown itself was obviously deliberate). I don't think the US would be likely to target any airliner unless it were carrying a nuclear bomb towards NYC or something crazy like that.
I don't think that the example you cited really has any relevance here. Maybe if somebody was suggesting that Snowden get on an airplane and have it take off from an unfriendly country and dive at a US carrier or something it would be more pertinent. The place the Iranian airliner downing is more likely to replay itself would be with a US airliner full of ordinary passengers over the Washington DC ADIZ if somebody really messed up.
I could see the US threatening a plane, or closing airspace to a plane, but not actually shooting one down unless that plane was actually an imminent threat.
The reality is that Chavez did more for social conditions in his country than any other president in living memory.
Yeah, except for those rampant human rights abuses. "Social conditions" includes things like free speech, whether you feel you can get justice, feel safe. Even if what you claimed were true - that his people were better off with him than without him - the ends do not justify the means.
Whether US government officials (not "USA"; don't confuse a country's government or leadership with its people) found him a threat and a risk (not "hated him viciously") is irrelevant to Chavez's power-grubbing, human-rights-abusing, autocratic ruling. That you use the word "vicious" to describe the US government's attitude towards him, instead of how he treated his own people, shows that you have a serious perspective problem.
Please help metamoderate.
> that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime
Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Then tell me how it goes.
Most people simply don't want to practice polygamy. If they do, that's not my business and it's not my job to stop them.
Both myself and my significant other want a one-on-one, monogamous relationship. Let's say a home down the street has a polygamist family. Polygamy is the only usual thing they do; everything else is quite normal. All members of that home understand what polygamy is and have entered into the arrangement willingly. In what way are they harming you or me? On what grounds would you use the police power of government (force, guns, threats of force) to stop them?
There is no answer to that question that makes sense. There are lots of "I want to force, at the point of a government gun, other people to live the way I live" type of reasons. Those make no sense; they're just an egotistical fantasy.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Have any proof of that? That is pure 100% speculation.
I don't think anyone will be able to fault you for fair mindedly ignoring the obvious regarding the behavior of leftist anti-American regimes.
Nicaragua, Venezuela offer NSA leaker Edward Snowden asylum
Maduro said several other Latin American governments have also expressed their intention of taking a similar stance by offering asylum for the cause of "dignity."
Chavez, who hand-picked Maduro as his successor, often engaged in similar defiance, criticizing U.S.-style capitalism and policies. In a 2006 speech to the U.N. General Assembly of world leaders, Chavez called President George W. Bush the devil, saying the podium reeked of sulfur after the U.S. president's address. He also accused Washington of plotting against him, expelled several diplomats and drug-enforcement agents and threatened to stop sending oil to the U.S.
Maduro made the asylum offer during a speech marking the anniversary of Venezuela's independence. It was not immediately clear if there were any conditions to Venezuela's offer.
But his critics said Maduro's decision is nothing but an attempt to veil the current undignified conditions of Venezuela, including one of the world's highest inflation rates and a shortage of basic products such as toilet paper.
"The asylum doesn't fix the economic disaster, the record inflation, an upcoming devaluation (of the currency), and the rising crime rate," Venezuelan opposition leader Henrique Capriles said in his Twitter account. Maduro beat Capriles in April's presidential election, but Capriles has not recognized defeat and has called it an electoral fraud.
Doing it for the "dignity" of the country isn't doing it out of concern for the human rights of Snowden. It is to enhance their national self-esteem while hurting the US.
...one of the most powerful, evil, and corrupt governments in the world. ... The US does not have any sort of ethical limits to its actions ...
Really? Really? I think you're overdue for calibration. I strongly urge you to watch at least the first, if not both.
The Soviet Story (2008)
A Portrait of Stalin: Secret Police
As to the following, these are hardly the only examples of this sort of thing.
U.S. Aircraft Carrier Leaving Disaster Zone After Tsunami
The Marshall Plan
The Berlin Airlift
That is why when we tell Europe to jump their only response is a polite, "How high?"
That is clearly nonsense. It is easy to see when you look at things like defense spending compared to NATO treaty obligations, diplomatic relations, trade, national laws, and many other things.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell