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Colorado Company Says It Plans To Test Hyperloop Transport System
Freshly Exhumed writes "Elon Musk's dream of a hyperloop transport system seems to be closer to reality than he anticipated. Hyperloop transportation, referred to by Musk as a "cross between a Concorde, a railgun, and an air hockey table", is a tubular pneumatic transport system with the theoretical capability of carrying passengers from New York to L.A. in about 30 minutes at velocities near 4,000 miles per hour, while maintaining a near-continuous G force of 1. Colorado-based company ET3 is planning to build and test its own version of such a hyperloop system, Yahoo reports." A more critical article would point out that the numbers presented seem absurdly optimistic; $100 for a 4,000mph cross country trip may be "projected," but construction of a cross-country train tube is a long way off, and so are ticket sales.
Is there a documentary I could watch that will give me some idea of the absurd disaster scenarios somebody has invented for this technology?
Only if your target market is the East coast and you don't foresee the need to test against such scenarios...
It's already 3000 AD? Time to go shopping for my Lucy Liu bot and Slurm.
of a Spruce Goose. And? Every time Musk says something we latch on to it and hype it. Besides, I'm sure the progress of 3D printing means we'll be able to 3D print ourselves at the destination. After all, the first modems only had 300 baud, look how fast they are now, therefore anything is possible. Especially when comparing two completely different things.
Let's see how fast it gets fresh salmon from Seattle to Kansas. Build a six inch wide tube or something. If that works out, then maybe think about humans.
Train accidents are bad enough already. 4000 mph? Would there even be anything left for the NTSB to sift through? What happens if the tube decompresses? Musk has some great ideas; but I think he's gone off the rails on this one.
True, it was the astronomical costs that prevent building high speed rail projects on the East Coast, much less a DC-to-NY high speed commuter. Man, if Musk can push a DC-to-NY commuter line, this would make that NY-to-LA dream more attractive.
And about that earthquake concern, they still built that rail line project in LA anyway, that's been beneficial to residents.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
The ET3 website looks like some kind of scam. They are offering to sell licenses for their amazing technology for only $100! I've seen it listed on several articles about Musk's plans, but I suspect that some lazy journalist just googled some shit and found that page.
Does anyone know if Musk actually has a company working on this technology?
Don't Bogart the fish sticks
Why would you build a high-speed train line instead?
Compressed air. Constant 1G acceleration. Underground tunnels. No problem!
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
credit for the invention belongs to Dr. Joseph V. Foa who was awarded US Patent 3213802 for a "train in a tube" in 1965. This was the basis for a number of years of research into the concept at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in the 1960s.
Come on -- TFA even says, "ET3's Hyperloop-like project".... Musk still hasn't announced what his "hyperloop" actually is and, no, Rand Corp and not even Gerard O'Neil in his book "2081" called the evacuated tube EM levitation system "hyperloop".
Seastead this.
Since when?
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
The TCR made ample use of cheap freed slave and immigrant labor
Why do you think it wouldn't be accurate robots building this thing, end-to-end?
Ezekiel 23:20
Since America landed a robot on mars using a rocket powered sky craine.
Yeah, sure. Assuming you can get the Federal Government to build the whole thing so that you only have to cover marginal operating costs instead of amortizing construction costs into the price, and each seat is filled every time, and you count in 1950's dollars ;-)
Yeah, but DC to NY is already a pretty short trip. Only 1 hour 10 in a plane, and it has rates starting from $156 (source, new Google maps). The problem with air travel is the security lines. If they could get rid of that, at least for short commuter flights, then flying would be much more enjoyable. The road trip time is 3 hours 43 minutes. Which isn't short, but easily something you could do if you needed to go there and back in the same day. A reasonable speed train (doesn't even have to be that fast) could probably do the trip in 2-3 hours if there wasn't a thousand stops. And trains don't have crazy security checks. Most of the time you can just walk right on 10 minutes before the train leaves. Something like this just isn't needed as it wouldn't take appreciably less time.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
The words 'Elon Musk' and 'Loop' make me think of the Lofstrom variety, not underground tunnels.
Nearly 3000 miles of travel, at up to 4000 mph, in 30 minutes?
The transcontinental railway and most other railways it the USA made use of free (federally granted) land. The cost of land for a new right of way after industrial development would be enormous. You could estimate that cost by asking one of the major US rail carriers how much it would cost to buy or lease their right of ways. Buying is probably off the table entirely. They won't sell and without changes in federal law, can't be forced to sell.
While it's true the US has been losing its edge in technological development, what other countries have really stepped up and filled that space? What country has developed usable electric cars, for instance? What country has developed private spaceflight? What country developed the internet? Smartphones?
The US is definitely going down in a lot of ways, but no one else seems to be shining in technological innovation either; everyone else either does only manufacturing or continues the use and development of a highly-mature technology. I just don't see any groundbreaking innovation coming from anywhere else. When the US collapses, things aren't going to progress very quickly in technology.
Seems to me a terrorist attack in a tunnel would be more crippling than one one a plane. It's probably not as big of a target though because 1) only the people on that train are in danger and 2) choking important infrastructure doesn't have nearly the "shock and awe" affect that terrorist go for,like crashing planes into things.
He certainly pulled off Paypal, Tesla is doing quite well and SpaceX is a revolution in space transport industry(price wise). That is one hell of a track record. Sure risky busness pays off well - if you succeed. But keep taking risks and one day you fail, I hope he has a good contingency plan.
They could use the NYS Thruway model. "We'll only charge tolls until the road is paid off. And then just keep raising tolls long after the road is paid off."
Technically I think tickets could be considered tolls.
Duh, a businessman in the end is aways about the businessman, what did you expect? That doesnt mean these endavours are not worthwhile. Paypal ripoffs, seriously? In paying over internet ripoff is an inherent risk no matter how you do it, paypal is a pretty good product nonetheless. Tesla - yeah electric car range cant beat gas, so? It sells, what else do you want, nobody says you have to buy one. And you forgot SpaceX, first private company to build their own orbital rocket on their own budget, if that is not a huge achievment what is? Sure Musk did very little of it, the real work is done by the engineers. But no engineer can do good work if there are no men like Musk finding funds, making contracts and bringing engineers together.
1 hour 10 in a plane
3 hrs in the airport.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
also getting molested by TSA
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
A new transportation system that would cost billions to build, would be completely uneconomical for patrons to use, and has a high risk of death with even the slightest malfunction at 4,000 MPH.
I'm not convinced that it would be uneconomical.
The cost of actual transport would be in the production of acceleration and overcoming losses from friction. The idea lends itself to believe it will experience very low amounts of friction. So how much energy is required to accelerate 4 tons (figure pulled from my ass, but these would be 6 passenger "capsules") to 4000 MPH, and how much does that energy cost in practice?
Quick reasoning in my head suggest far less than $100 to accelerate a 4-ton capsule to 4000 MPH, for it certainly seems reasonable that an average american car (also 4 tons) could accelerate to 40 mph and then stop at least 100 times on a single tank of gas (which is less than $100.)
The primary costs would clearly be in recurring maintenance. The recurring cost of maintenance is an engineering and initial investment problem.
"His name was James Damore."
The cost of land for a new right of way after industrial development would be enormous.
Uhh .... underground mean anything to you?
Infuriate left and right
The usefulness of 3D printing has already been shown. I can already buy solid plastic parts built on 3D printers that cost less than molded parts (in small quantities). Having one in your home still isn't practical for most people because most people would not be able to amortize the costs, but it's easy for a small manufacturing company to do. With with another factor of 2 price reduction, which seems likely to happen, you will be able to replace just about any broken plastic part from just about any product cheaper than you could have another one shipped from the OEM. Or you could send a scan of the broken object, or several pictures taken from several angles, to a local shop that owns 3D modeling software that can reconstruct the original unbroken object and print it for you to pick up. They could be as common as supermarkets. They could be IN supermarkets.
Japanese developed usable electric cars if you define usable by affordable and available to the population, unlike the Teslas. USA gave a try earlier in our century, but it was killed by your greed and capitalist system (see the documentary "who killed the electric car").
Private spaceflight occurs mainly in Russia. They were also the first to have a usable space station up there (skylab was a bad joke). NASA are experts in developing and sending probes and robots, I give you that. But again, greed and paranoia impedes NASA and I don't see much space development in the near future of the USA. Which is sad, really, because competition from the USA would drive Russia or China big time to improve its presence in space, maybe even getting another space race?
The USA developed the basics of the Internet backbone, but look at the current customer situation (which is all that matters, really), you can have 100mbps symmetrical in Japan, Slovakia, Estonia for 10-15$/month. In the USA you can have 10mbps with a 300GB cap for 40$/month. Again, your greed impedes innovation. A lot, most, of the optic fiber dropped in the oceans are operated by foreign countries.
The problem with innovation is that it is driven by passion or competition. Since passion is limited by a small budget, most of the time, only competition can bring up things. Companies do it either to improve their countrie's image (see HTC) or to be the richest company(See Samsung), it doesn't matter. If one country does something innovative, other countries will follow and try to beat them. See the smartphone market, for example.
> What country has developed usable electric cars, for instance?
Japan.
> What country developed the internet?
Any country that is deploying fiber broadband nationwide. (Hint: Not the USA)
> Smartphones?
Finland & Korea, mostly.
Yes, true, underground. But of course there is maintenance. And maintenance access ways. And roads to get to those maintenance access ways. And buildings with security perimeters around those access ways. All of which are above ground. You don't think for a minute that there wouldn't be access hatches for maintenance at a minimum of every ten miles do you? BTW, this type of "hyperloop" is sort of a silly name for something postulated and described in Robert Heinlein's fiction many many years ago as a ballistic tube.
Yeah, it means even more expensive.
in futurama ... nothing new to see here
Nobody else wants to hire big fat ugly people.
Yes, installing a new cross country underground tube should be no problem at all to get done right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline
Oh wait...
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
property rights in many places extend underground and would still require a lot of above ground infrastructure and access ways for maintenance purposes.
How much energy is released on impact by a large mass travelling 4000 MPH?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Private spaceflight occurs mainly in Russia.
I thought Russia's industry was a state-owned company that was spun off into a private entity. That's not exactly the same as a private company building itself up from nothing. They're also having a lot of problems.
The USA developed the basics of the Internet backbone, but look at the current customer situation (which is all that matters, really), you can have 100mbps symmetrical in Japan, Slovakia, Estonia for 10-15$/month. In the USA you can have 10mbps with a 300GB cap for 40$/month. Again, your greed impedes innovation. A lot, most, of the optic fiber dropped in the oceans are operated by foreign countries.
This is all totally irrelevant: we're talking about technical innovation here, not business plans and operations. I could go start my own ISP, but that doesn't make me an innovator, it makes me someone who bought some off-the-shelf equipment and put it into use. It's great those other countries are providing internet service so cheaply, and I wish our ISP situation here wasn't so fucked up, but they're not innovators, just like your local car mechanic is not an innovator in the realm of automotive engineering. The innovators are the people/companies who designed and engineered the equipment those ISPs use, and while a lot of that has moved to Asia in recent years, much of the original design work (such as the Ethernet standards) was done by American companies. Dropping an optical cable into the ocean doesn't take innovation, it just requires buying an optical cable from someone and renting a boat. Laying transoceanic cables is a mature technology (they've been doing that for many decades now), and you're not an innovator of optical cables when all you do is buy it from someone else.
As far as HTC and Samsung, there's not all that much innovation going on there; they make Android (and Windows) phones, so they're getting their software from someone else, namely Google and MS, both American companies, and all the ICs they use are mostly designed by American companies.
Original 1972 paper here: http://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/2008/P4874.pdf
For a track designed to handle these speeds, automated construction systems could be the only thing accurate and reliable enough to build it. Also, I don't see how unions would ever enter into the equation providing that you don't hire the blue collars into your new company in the first place.
Ezekiel 23:20
A new transportation system that would cost billions to build, would be completely uneconomical for patrons to use, and has a high risk of death with even the slightest malfunction at 4,000 MPH
This sounds like someone complaining about the airplane in 1905. Part of progress is failure, and since we just dropped three to five trillion dollars on the Iraq War, let's hear a little bit less how expensive government subsidies for science are.
If we had spent just one third of what we wasted in Iraq on something like a national rail transportation, we could have created hundreds of thousands of jobs that trained people in high-level construction and engineering, strengthened our air transportation system by focusing on longer haul routes and going to fewer but larger planes (which are safer and more fuel efficient), and perhaps even reintroduced more freight service to more areas to reduce long-haul trucking, which reduces smog, traffic, and wear on our bridge infrastructure.
Besides, if Elon Musk were the new Steve Jobs, he'd be fussing over pixels on a touch device. We already have plenty of people doing that. I'm ready for some actual innovation, thanks.
Who would remain to pay the 100$ tickets if robots did all the jobs?
They could even charge a premium for that service and make the TSA self-funding. Maybe even return money to the government. More proof that bureaucracies have no imagination.
P.S. Don't forget an equivalent service for the ladies. Let's not be sexist here (or pass up any business opportunities, like the cosmetics companies that didn't market to black women for years).
Politicians and Unions would make sure that robots would never see the light of day on something like this
That probably explains why all construction work in the US is done by guys with shovels. Imagine the efficiency improvements if they could use backhoes, trucks, tunnel boring machines, etc.
Politicians would be happy to have a US based tech company build the tools to build this. The hyperloop construction unions don't exist yet. The railway worker unions might object but there's a limit to how much they can do, and even with a largely automated construction process, this would require a substantial workforce. I think their jobs are pretty secure.
The objections to that pipeline are mostly about the use of tar sands and possible oil spills. This would be a different animal. Of course there would be some opposition, but nothing like the pipeline.
P.S. Similar objections were raised about the Alaska pipeline (us old fogeys remember such stuff). It was still built, and probably built better because of the opposition. Who knew that the real problem would be sailing a ship into a reef.
That DC should be considered a primary destination is a horrid comment on modern civilization. Politics in preference to production or pleasure.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
The NYS Thruway is nothing. Look at NYC bridge tolls. Some of them are on interstates, and for years violated federal law about what tolls could be for bridges on interstates. Simple fix: they changed the law. Same thing for the NYS Thruway (and the Mass. Turnpike). They were built before the interstate system, so in incorporating them into the system there was an agreement to let the states charge tolls for another 30 years. Guess what happened after that.
People who have something better to do with their lives than digging ditches.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
As a fan of horror movies and entertainment, I consider DC a prime vacation spot.
The toll roads are usually better quality than the non toll roads
What exactly is the problem with paying for good infrastructure?
http://www.dvice.com/archives/2012/07/hyperloop-elon.php
LA to SF in 30 minutes. Still much faster than current high speed rail, but nowhere near as insane as NY to LA in 30 minutes. Getting a mass transportation vehicle to travel at Mach 5.2 might happen one day, but we will have to see many evolutionary steps between now and then.
If by something better you mean bankers, lawyers, marketers and medias in general, count me out.
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The Interstate system has minimum standards for road quality. I-90 charges tolls for the majority of its stretch across NYS. All of the spurs (I-190, 290, 390 and so on up to 990) are not toll roads, but are still interstates. I've driven the entire length of I-90 in NY a number of times as well the full length (or close to) of most of its spurs in NY (excepting only I-990). The quality is pretty much the same on all of them. The Thruway does get more frequent repairs and upgrades, but it's also a much busier road so it deteriorates more quickly as well.
I rank toll collectors up there with the guy who turns the sign between Stop and Yield in construction sites as people that should have been replaced by computers and robots a decade ago.
What exactly is the problem with paying for good infrastructure?
Nothing. What I object to is paying for it several times over.
Assuming we get perfect energy conversion, and 1/2mv^2 is the correct formula google gives 6.4GJ for this. Or about 1.8MWh. You apparently get a lot of that back when decelerating but even if you don't, the $600 for 6 passengers should pay for the energy (which I think will cost about $100 or so). I may be wrong here since I can't quite get my head around the velocity-squared relationship.
Not sure if the concept is all that practical at 1G though. You'd take about 3 minutes getting to that speed at 1G, which would require 36MW (not completely out of the question - the faster Shinkansen trains take about half that and so it should be within engineering capability), but 1G acceleration forwards is in addition to the 1G acceleration downwards. I don't know how comfortable people would be with a total 1.4Gs for that duration.
Gas taxes, license fees, tolls, etc. only pay for 51% of what the federal government spends on the roads that your car is on, with general tax dollars filling in the rest. Why stop at just subsidizing the roads themselves?
Wouldn't the east coast make more sense?
Why would you build this in a terrorism zone?
I feel I should point out that maintaining 1G constantly (or anything near it) to get that distance in 30 minutes and reach that speed is completely impossible. The math just isn't there.
you'll totally have to be molested to get a ride in this thing.
And something everybody seems to be missing is that 1G of constant acceleration/deceleration means you have to strapped in the whole trip. Holding books becomes annoying, and you'll want your laptop strapped to the tray as well, assuming the screen hinges are strong enough to keep it open.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
property rights in many places extend underground and would still require a lot of above ground infrastructure and access ways for maintenance purposes.
Eminent Domain works wonders, particularly for establishing public rights of way, but also for taking your property, which isn't making me mone, so that I can build a mall or hotel or some other business or a roadway there.
Indeed, who wrote that incident was like the biggest DUI of all time, the drunk had a 70 mile wide road, but he let a kid in the back seat drive with no headlights and managed to wreck the car on a streetlight?
The toll roads are usually better quality than the non toll roads
What exactly is the problem with paying for good infrastructure?
Nothing. I just don't want to rent it, and then be denied access when I don't choose to continue paying rent.
I prefer the German model: the contractor who offers the best overall cost and warranty for N years of road gets the contract.
flagmen are a negligible part of the construction costs, and the construction contractors make money on them anyways. zero incentive for making an automated system.
I'd love to see engineering documentation of the anticipated failure modes for an atmospheric or sub-atmospheric 4000mph transit system.
On the plus side, it will save a bunch on funeral costs for the unlucky passengers!
-SS "Teach the ignorant, care for the dumb, and punish the stupid."
This may be true for the Thruway, but is not the case for NYC. Revenue generated from tolls on NYC bridges (at least the ones owned by the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, a division of the MTA) is used to fund a significant portion of the operating costs of public transit. Without tolls from, for example, the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the subway fare would be much higher than $2.50.
under construction
Yeah, as long as you want a part made out of either ABS or PLA, that only has about 1/10th the tensile strength of your molded plastic part, whose tolerances are accommodating enough to deal with the inevitable warping of any 3D-printed part, and whose surfaces don't need to be smooth, you're all set.
The drunken captain, bad as that was, wasn't the cause of the accident. He was asleep in his bunk, and the ship was being piloted by someone who was qualified. The drunken captain bit was played up to distract from Exxon's culpability, like choosing not to fix a radar that was broken for a year, in order to save a few bucks. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill#Identified_causes
I figure NYC bridges could demand much larger tolls in order to keep the number of cars trying to gridlock Manhattan in check.
Many high toll NYC bridges don't connect to Manhattan, including Verrazano, GW, Throgs Neck, and Whitestone. In order to drive from Long Island to almost anywhere else you pretty much have to take those bridges. I don't think NYC has some feudal right to extort extravagant tolls from anybody who passes through "their" territory, especially on routes that are part of the interstate system (built largely to avoid such issues).
Why do you think it wouldn't be accurate robots building this thing, end-to-end?
Adjusted for inflation, the $110 second-class trans-continental rail fare of 1870 would cost $1970 today. In 1880 land grants to the railroads were valued at $391 million, a breath-taking sum for the day. Construction on this scale does not come cheap even labor costs are low.
PLA isn't stable enough for anything but one-time-use parts. ABS is strong and stable. Sabre also has flexible materials. (http://www.mediacopy.co.uk/3d_printing_material_properties.htm). ABS parts can be treated in a acetone vapor bath to smooth their surfaces in cases where that's important.
Extortion for the greater good? Let them either raise the fares to reflect the actual cost (which would provide a lot more incentive to run the system more efficiently, since fares are a big political issue in NYC) or levy city taxes to subsidize it. The bridge tolls are largely a way to extort money from people from the surrounding areas (Long Island, upstate NY, NJ, Connecticut) who have no choice but to pass through NYC to get somewhere else. The current system is medieval, like some feudal lord being given the privilege of extorting whatever tolls he wants from those passing through. That's a system that helped destroy the French economy and lead to their Revolution (hey, it's Bastille Day!).
1G doesn't mean you need strapped in -- it means your seat & tray (which naturally is no longer attached to the seat in front of you) pitches forward or backward 45 degrees, and you experience a mildly uncomfortable straight-down "gravity" of 1.4G. As long as the transitions are handled smoothly, it shouldn't be a problem.
And 1G is small enough for the prospect of a seat jamming in one position to not be a show-stopping safety issue. The main issue is the midpoint flip. (If the failure occurs during the 45 degree switch from level to acceleration immediately after launch, the trip can be aborted or delayed while we move them to a functioning seat. If it occurs during the opposite switch at the end, well, the trip's done anyway. Also note that both of these transitions are only 45 degrees, so the user has a chance of hanging on long enough to gracefully exit the seat -- the 90 degree transition in the middle will throw people right out of their seat if done wrong.) Naturally, the seats face the rear of the train, so that if a seat should be stuck in the acceleration position (reclined 45 degrees), the occupant gets to spend the next 15 minutes with the G's pressing their back into the seat-back (rather than their butt into the seat-seat as intended -- they won't get much typing/reading/whatever done, and they'll get a bellyful of whatever was on their tray, but it's not directly injurious, and doesn't require safety belts). The opposite, forward-facing design would fail with the passenger thrown forward out of their seat onto the floor, or suspended as though from the ceiling by their safety harness (which would then be necessary, at least during the midpoint switch).
Alternatively, you can just use (forward- or backward-facing, or some of each) seats tipped back at a fixed 45 degrees, and spend half the trip sitting on your butt, half laying on your back with your knees up. No trays provided, if you want to use a laptop/tablet/phone, you keep it secure in your own lap -- it's only a half hour. Not as clever and scifi, but it does the trick well enough.
If a capsule is traveling along at 4000mph what happens when it needs to alter course? How long would the curve need to be to alter the direction by five degrees?
The tube may work well in straight lines but building one completely straight is difficult if not impossible. There are mountains, valleys, cities, etc. that have to be compensated for. I am pretty sure passengers would not want to be on a roller coaster ride while going across the US.
Sure an absolutely straight tube would be great but the world is not straight.
You just wait - "big fat ugly people" will soon be classified as a disease, and then you will HAVE to hire them under the ADA.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
1. NY to declare war on LA!
2. Money piñata!
you had me at #!
while maintaining a near-continuous G force of 1
As opposed to those annoying above-ground trains with their varying gravity?
This seems to have come from the video, which states that:
It produces a max of 1G of force at top speed. Passengers would not experience any discomfort.
Two things seem wrong with that to me. Firstly, if you're already at "top speed" you won't be exerting any more force because you won't be going any faster. Secondly, no discomfort? Wouldn't it make the floor feel like it was 45 degrees and gravity was 1.41x stronger? I'd find that at least slightly uncomfortable.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
NY-to-LA at 4000mph for a fortunate few at inconceivably-enormous cost? That may have appeal for the self-appointed "job-creators", but strays laughably far from any possible reality.
In a local transit scenario, this technology will rule. Support infrastructure is very lightweight. The path of individual tube "cars" under computer control means NON-MASS transit with highly-individualized trajectories for everyone, right down to the sub-neighborhood level. No engines, no fuel, no batteries, just huge centralized (and thus greatly efficient) vacuum generators powered with *whatever*. Vacuum-powered "switches" so simple that (apart from seal maintenance) there's nothing to fail. Acceleration and braking through sectorized control of pressures.
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
True enough. But there _are_ occasionally exceptional individuals that managed to build great things without state support.
A local example is the old Great Northern Railway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Railway_(U.S.)
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Doesn't anybody read the old masters of science fiction anymore? Slashdot, of all places, should already be familiar with all the details of subsurface evacuated tube transportation. This idea has been around for at least half a century, and has been electrically and mechanically feasible for decades. Financially is another story, which is why the whole thing is the pipe dream so cleverly pointed out by another poster.
But let's talk about the real concept, instead of all the (bad) guesswork.
An absolutely straight tube would be quite bad, especially for that distance. What you want is a great circle arc, and the only way to achieve one that's perfect enough and stable enough is to bury it and bury it deep, to avoid mountains, valleys, cities, etc.
It's not pneumatic. That's just silly. It's electromagnetic. You use coils at either end, accelerating with them on the way out and decelerating (and incidentally storing a great deal of the initial launch energy to be reused) at the end. Your vehicle is ballistic in the middle, in free fall. Helluva way to travel, but very cheap, energy-wise, assuming you build giant ring capacitors at each end to store the recovered energy each time the vehicle arrives. Then you only have to make up the losses in the system, which is reasonable to do. The tube is evacuated to vacuum to eliminate air resistance losses, which is so high at useful speeds that it prevents the whole system from working at all, never mind cost effectively.
And no, you don't switch. The tubes are point to point, and there's only one large vehicle per tube, going back and forth between each end. Of course, while you're at it, you might as well build two parallel tubes, 'cause the marginal cost of boring another hole isn't too bad. Still, the system has a hard capacity limit for each route. It's a very high limit if you build a large enough vehicle, but it's also a very hard limit. Once you hit it, the only way to expand capacity, beyond making the vehicle longer (a process with strictly diminishing returns with its own hard limit) is to bore another hole. Time-consuming and energy-intensive, at best.
Of course, it will never happen. Quite aside from property rights problems (land ownership extends right to the center of the Earth), the time and energy required to bore a hole long enough to be useful is extreme. It took 6 years to build the 50km long Channel Tunnel. At that rate, New York to LA would only take 579 years. (Admittedly the actual boring time wasn't anything like 6 years, but still... The project has all the same problems, magnified.)
We'll all be riding in self-driving all-electric vehicles long before anybody bores a transcontinental train tunnel.
People who have something better to do with their lives than digging ditches.
Actually a backhoe operator makes pretty good money.
There is very little demand for manual ditch digging anymore. Even if you could find workers willing to accept minimum wage it isn't cost effective compared to a backhoe.
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
Anyone else read that as hyperlob? It'd be pretty awesome getting thrown by some kind of massive trebuchet.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
True. But decent looking chicks with no brains all end up at Hooters.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Be thankful they aren't using spoons. No doubt someone here can find the original quote.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Once the thing is up to speed, an emergency stop in any reasonably short distance would crush the occupants like a pancake. They would be wiping the victims off the front windows with a squeegee.
I'll bite, what part of SpaceX doesn't fit for you? The NASA contract helped things along faster, but Elon's been claiming it only changed the dates when their goals were reached. They were doing well even without and would've gotten to where they are, just later...
the world needs ditch diggers too, right?
:P. Basically, just because the robot economy was delayed 50 years by an influx of slave labor from China and a few tech hurdles doesn't mean it's not coming. 3-D printers + robots will either create a utopia or a world of 100,000 or so haves and 8 billion have nots. Given our track record I'm not betting on the utopia...
Agreeing with you there
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The wikipedia article on the Hyperloop quotes Musk as saying the hyperloop and vacuum tunnel are not the same. Anyone know the difference ?
The main thing that brought down the French economy and led to mass noggin-lopping was supporting you herberts when you got all uppity in 1776.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Because the high speed train can stop much quicker. At 4000 mph even an emergency stop is going to cover a far greater distance than a 200 mph high speed train will (400 times as much in fact), so the chance of running into a dislocation is much higher. On Japan's high speed lines there are earthquake signals that turn red on tremors.
Also, Musk's idea is to run inside a vacuum tube. A leak caused by an earthquake would let in air, which, if you hit it at 4000 mph, would be like hitting a brick wall.
Most of the time you can just walk right on 10 minutes before the train leaves.
I don't know about the US (except that most people there seem scarcely to have heard of trains), but in the UK you can board most trains seconds before they leave. At a main terminus such as London Paddington it may be a minute because there is such a high throughput that they want the train to be ready to go immediately it gets the green light.
What is the ten minutes for?
Terrorists go for planes as most people seem to view them as more "cool" than trains, and assume they carry richer passengers. Goodness knows why, and that could change.
The earth is honeycombed with subshuttle tubes for high speed transit between settlements, a remnant of the 1990s technology before the nuclear armageddon. Only the scientists from the Pax settlement retain the technology and knowledge of using the subshuttle network... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmwl3-D62XE
Also, Musk's idea is to run inside a vacuum tube. A leak caused by an earthquake would let in air, which, if you hit it at 4000 mph, would be like hitting a brick wall.
I'm really curious about what details you happen to know about this hyperloop system. Are you a SpaceX or Tesla employee that has had a couple of cool ones with the boss to get him to spill his guts about the idea?
Otherwise, I don't think anybody but Musk has a bloody clue about how his system works. I've seen the interviews and public statements about the idea, but frankly neither this particular article nor any other shows anything other than another high-speed transport system. I'll agree that vacuum tube transport systems seem to fit the concept of hyperloops from the perspective of "this is the best thing that fits the idea", but all of that is pure guess work. There are other possibilities too, but the real point is that nobody has a clue.
It seems, based on some statements by Musk, that some actual engineering R&D work has gone into the idea (aka there might be some people at either Tesla and/or SpaceX that have helped Elon with some calculations and fleshing out the concept) but he certainly has made no public statements about the concept in any level of detail.... including even if there will be vacuum tubes involved in any part of the system. When asked explicitly if it was an underground vacuum tube system, Elon Musk even said "No".
In other words, this whole article is just a bunch of BS.
And about that earthquake concern, they still built that rail line project in LA anyway, that's been beneficial to residents.
The not so highspeed rail project between Barstow and Fresno that will be the world's slowest "high speed rail system", while I'll admit is under construction, but the only benefit to residents so far in the area is to help reduce unemployment in the area in a fashion similar to the Parable of the Broken Window. There certainly is no reason to believe that the rail line will ever actually run and deliver passengers, and so far it hasn't delivered a single passenger between any two points.
Terrorists go for planes as most people seem to view them as more "cool" than trains, and assume they carry richer passengers. Goodness knows why, and that could change.
I personally think that if terrorists went after the Autobahn or the U.S. Interstate Highway system, they would cause far more economic damage and possibly kill even more people.
The only thing is that I don't want to go through a TSA security check point each time I get onto a freeway on ramp. Sure enough, once any sort of terrorism activity happens on a transportation system like that, you will see people screaming to beef up security there.
Nothing wrong in principal
You could in principal build something like this
Principle, not principal.
It always confuses me.
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The objections to that pipeline are mostly about the use of tar sands and possible oil spills. This would be a different animal. Of course there would be some opposition, but nothing like the pipeline.
P.S. Similar objections were raised about the Alaska pipeline (us old fogeys remember such stuff). It was still built, and probably built better because of the opposition. Who knew that the real problem would be sailing a ship into a reef.
The objections to the Keystone pipeline are simply because it is a convenient political target at the moment..... while dozens of other similar pipelines are being built and hundreds of others are currently in operation quietly with very little fuss. If there were oil spills, you would be hearing about it because it would be in the news..... news because it is an unusual thing to see happening. Yes, I know that there are pipeline spills which do happen, and they do get reported by main stream news media sources as well.
The Trans-Alaska Pipeline was also something that became a similar kind of political football. The people of Alaska don't complain now because every Alaskan citizen receives an annual paycheck coming from the government for oil royalties.
Also, train stations tend to be where the people are (e.g., mid-town Manhattan) while airports tend to be where people aren't (e.g., Queens). So you have to factor in travel time to the airport as well as the hassles once you enter the airport.
Something this precise cant possibly be maintained.
Reminds me of the Top Thrill dragster. At every run it weighs the passengers + cars and exerts the exact force to get them JUST over the top without flying off or rolling back. The few times I have been there it has gone down several times a day for maintenance.
If Cedar Point cant keep something complex, yet not nearly so of this proposed venture running smoothly for its 1000 FEET of track, how in the hell do you expect something this mammoth to run smoothly over 3000 MILES of "track".
Just another pie in the sky "flying cars for everyone" vision.
one day the robots will look back in horror at how their ancestors were used for slave labor.
Try looking for a way of getting to Staten Island and back off again without paying any tools.
I don't even live in New York but a quick Google search reveals that you can get from Long Island into Manhattan without paying a toll
Where did I say otherwise? Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburgh and Queensboro bridges are all toll free. My point was that to get to/from Long Island to anyplace other than NYC means paying an exorbitant toll.
For which the French should thank us. Can you imagine how embarrassing it would be for your country to still have a monarch in the 21st century?
That and hijacking something on a rail doesn't provide as many options for mayhem as something with free movement.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
If those companies were actually smart, they would be the ones funding the project for a piece of the backend. It would be win-win for them as they get all the overflow from people not able to take the tube, as well as $$ from the people that are. This would also take less money from the government.
Love your sig.
Whats the rest of it say?
[Nukenerd] Also, Musk's idea is to run inside a vacuum tube. A leak caused by an earthquake would let in air, which, if you hit it at 4000 mph, would be like hitting a brick wall.
[Teancum] I'm really curious about what details you happen to know about this hyperloop system. Are you a SpaceX or Tesla employee that has had a couple of cool ones with the boss to get him to spill his guts about the idea?
No. But some of the links I followed (eg www.businessinsider.com/what-is-elon-musks-hyperloop-2013-5) referred to an evacuated tunnel.
[Teancum] Otherwise, I don't think anybody but Musk has a bloody clue about how his system works. When asked explicitly if it was an underground vacuum tube system, Elon Musk even said "No".
I am a former London Undergound railway engineer and I can tell you that the air resistance in a tunnel is higher than in the open, and that there is no way that 4000 mph is going to be possible in a tunnel unless it is evacuated. The train would melt otherwise, even if you could give it the power.
[Teancum] In other words, this whole article is just a bunch of BS.
Agreed.
Is that more or less dumb than a dry sack of shit?
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
The HyperLoop, contrary to what the icon depicts, is not a big truck you can load up with all kinds of stuff. It's a series of TUBES.
In New York and DC (the only places I really board trains in the USA) you have to wait in a long single queue and show your ticket to someone before you can get down to the platform. It's not like in most countries where you just walk on.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
This sounds eerily similar to:
* http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/07/11/2023232/why-ultra-efficient-4000-mph-vacuum-tube-trains-arent-being-built
Requiem for the American Dream
Firstly, it's possible to transition from a monarchy to a republic without wholesale slaughter. While many of the aristocracy were indeed asshats, many intellectuals, left-handers and people who looked a bit funny got the short sharp shock too.
Secondly, what's embarrassing about it? The UK, Norway and the like are constitutional monarchies; that's a long way from dictatorships. So if you think the absence of a monarch actually means anything, you're deluded. If you think it means the country is a meritocracy, doubly so.
Thirdly, the Bush dynasty hasn't gone away, so no need to be so smug, fatty.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."